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On August 21 2025 02:24 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2025 02:19 mtcn77 wrote:On August 21 2025 01:43 WombaT wrote:
For those not aware, you’re not arguing with someone who advocates for mixing in one base builds as part of your suite, but someone who actively thinks fast expanding PvZ is just outright bad I never said fast expanding is bad, fast forge expand(usually how it is done) is wrong in my head. Protoss can expand every bit as quick as zerg, but I don't think forge expands are a good idea. Gateways are the best early game building. Nexuses are the cheapest base for expansion. I'm trying to optimise my way out of forge expanding in general just to prove people wrong protoss is better than they think. I dont think Gateway Expand can always be somebody's 100% opening. It's kinda like you cant always get away with upgrade terran for tvz or zerg cant always get away with 3 hatch. Or how you could never always get away with greedy openings Idk about you but broodwar and even sc2 was more rock paper scissors with builds than there is that one build you always get away with like if you are known as a player who always goes gateway expand players are eventually gonna adapt against you or even have some optimized build to kill your one go-to build and that's not good in the proscene. The best players seem to be mix capable of macro, greedy and more aggressive builds than just macro or greedy or aggressive Like you have mix FE and GE(is it the acronym for this ?) is a better way to go
Yeah, it is rock paper scissors: if zerg chooses to meet protoss in small map let them lose to 2gate, seriously.#96 there is one more in #99.
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Just wait until someone tells mtcn that protoss can do cannon rush in PvZ and it's actually a very popular strat these days.
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On August 21 2025 02:49 Magic Powers wrote:
Just wait until someone tells mtcn that protoss can do cannon rush in PvZ and it's actually a very popular strat these days.
Hold on Magic, it can wait. I just watched Mini Vs Ssak Group C Round 24 match. My man is going to win this ASL. 
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I think that game was the worst current ASL game so far (in terms of number of mistakes made by both sides). Mini should apologize to his fans.
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On August 21 2025 04:04 Bonyth wrote:
I think that game was the worst current ASL game so far (in terms of number of mistakes made by both sides). Mini should apologize to his fans.
Any good picks as of late?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51708 Posts
On August 21 2025 04:04 Bonyth wrote:
I think that game was the worst current ASL game so far (in terms of number of mistakes made by both sides). Mini should apologize to his fans.
even he wasn't happy when he won.
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LOL, missing the point entirely. Mini won without a FORGE.
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On August 22 2025 04:26 mtcn77 wrote:
LOL, missing the point entirely. Mini won without a FORGE.
and? That is all the more reason to believe Mini is not in peak condition. You manage to make everything, even if it isnt positive, a glaze for mini lol. thats just blind fanboying.
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On August 22 2025 08:03 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2025 04:26 mtcn77 wrote:
LOL, missing the point entirely. Mini won without a FORGE. and? That is all the more reason to believe Mini is not in peak condition. You manage to make everything, even if it isnt positive, a glaze for mini lol. thats just blind fanboying.
Look, you are arguing against results. I'm saying forget the convention, look at the results. This is what protoss players should do, not tick stupid checklists in order to lose. Who cares he has 2000 in the bank at times. He won, end of story. HTs have proven their importance. He probably wouldn't have so many if he had spent 900 on +3 shields that favours nothing towards his gameplay.
My opinion: forge is useless most of the time. Protoss is already the strongest army, you need numbers, not more quality. Prove me wrong.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On August 22 2025 08:29 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2025 08:03 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On August 22 2025 04:26 mtcn77 wrote:
LOL, missing the point entirely. Mini won without a FORGE. and? That is all the more reason to believe Mini is not in peak condition. You manage to make everything, even if it isnt positive, a glaze for mini lol. thats just blind fanboying. Look, you are arguing against results. I'm saying forget the convention, look at the results. This is what protoss players should do, not tick stupid checklists in order to lose. Who cares he has 2000 in the bank at times. He won, end of story. HTs have proven their importance. He probably wouldn't have so many if he had spent 900 on +3 shields that favours nothing towards his gameplay. My opinion: forge is useless most of the time. Protoss is already the strongest army, you need numbers, not more quality. Prove me wrong.
How does anyone go about proving you wrong on this?
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On August 22 2025 09:35 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2025 08:29 mtcn77 wrote:On August 22 2025 08:03 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On August 22 2025 04:26 mtcn77 wrote:
LOL, missing the point entirely. Mini won without a FORGE. and? That is all the more reason to believe Mini is not in peak condition. You manage to make everything, even if it isnt positive, a glaze for mini lol. thats just blind fanboying. Look, you are arguing against results. I'm saying forget the convention, look at the results. This is what protoss players should do, not tick stupid checklists in order to lose. Who cares he has 2000 in the bank at times. He won, end of story. HTs have proven their importance. He probably wouldn't have so many if he had spent 900 on +3 shields that favours nothing towards his gameplay. My opinion: forge is useless most of the time. Protoss is already the strongest army, you need numbers, not more quality. Prove me wrong. How does anyone go about proving you wrong on this?
There's only one way to find out if mtcn77 is really right. He goes do a protoss only run with gateway expand only no forge expand upto ASL finals and prove us all wrong that he is right LOL
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On August 22 2025 12:55 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2025 09:35 WombaT wrote:On August 22 2025 08:29 mtcn77 wrote:On August 22 2025 08:03 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:On August 22 2025 04:26 mtcn77 wrote:
LOL, missing the point entirely. Mini won without a FORGE. and? That is all the more reason to believe Mini is not in peak condition. You manage to make everything, even if it isnt positive, a glaze for mini lol. thats just blind fanboying. Look, you are arguing against results. I'm saying forget the convention, look at the results. This is what protoss players should do, not tick stupid checklists in order to lose. Who cares he has 2000 in the bank at times. He won, end of story. HTs have proven their importance. He probably wouldn't have so many if he had spent 900 on +3 shields that favours nothing towards his gameplay. My opinion: forge is useless most of the time. Protoss is already the strongest army, you need numbers, not more quality. Prove me wrong. How does anyone go about proving you wrong on this? There's only one way to find out if mtcn77 is really right. He goes do a protoss only run with gateway expand only no forge expand upto ASL finals and prove us all wrong that he is right LOL
I'm skipping Group B, going to get back at you after watching Group C and Mini.
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Mini won against sSak despite forgetting upgrades --> Protoss doesn't need Forge in PvZ.
Fascinating leap of logic there.
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On August 22 2025 15:56 TMNT wrote:
Mini won against sSak despite forgetting upgrades --> Protoss doesn't need Forge in PvZ.
Fascinating leap of logic there.
It is better than Bisu forgetting to research storm and losing to Killer.
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Just wait until someone tells mtcn that players like Mini are so incredibly good at the game that they can win despite making huge blunders, and not because of these blunders.
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On August 22 2025 16:56 Magic Powers wrote:
Just wait until someone tells mtcn that players like Mini are so incredibly good at the game that they can win despite making huge blunders, and not because of these blunders.
Weren't you lecturing me a page back pros win because of builds, not because of being pros? I see a big, huge, giant elephant in the room. You seem to agree with what I'm saying after all.
On August 20 2025 16:05 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are. The reason why players aren't as good as the pros is because they don't copy the pros. More forge/gate FE rather than one base is the answer to winning more games in PvZ. There is no "but only the pros can do it". No, wrong. The pros do it because it wins, not because they're the only ones who can do it.
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On August 22 2025 21:48 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2025 16:56 Magic Powers wrote:
Just wait until someone tells mtcn that players like Mini are so incredibly good at the game that they can win despite making huge blunders, and not because of these blunders. Weren't you lecturing me a page back pros win because of builds, not because of being pros? I see a big, huge, giant elephant in the room. You seem to agree with what I'm saying after all. Show nested quote +On August 20 2025 16:05 Magic Powers wrote:On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are. The reason why players aren't as good as the pros is because they don't copy the pros. More forge/gate FE rather than one base is the answer to winning more games in PvZ. There is no "but only the pros can do it". No, wrong. The pros do it because it wins, not because they're the only ones who can do it.
Pros are the best players, and pros also play the best strategies. Not pros are better while playing worse strategies. They're the best players because they play the best strategies. The odd blunder doesn't refute that. One game with a huge blunder does not contradict a hundred games without a huge blunder.
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On August 22 2025 22:44 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2025 21:48 mtcn77 wrote:On August 22 2025 16:56 Magic Powers wrote:
Just wait until someone tells mtcn that players like Mini are so incredibly good at the game that they can win despite making huge blunders, and not because of these blunders. Weren't you lecturing me a page back pros win because of builds, not because of being pros? I see a big, huge, giant elephant in the room. You seem to agree with what I'm saying after all. On August 20 2025 16:05 Magic Powers wrote:On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are. The reason why players aren't as good as the pros is because they don't copy the pros. More forge/gate FE rather than one base is the answer to winning more games in PvZ. There is no "but only the pros can do it". No, wrong. The pros do it because it wins, not because they're the only ones who can do it. Pros are the best players, and pros also play the best strategies. Not pros are better while playing worse strategies. They're the best players because they play the best strategies. The odd blunder doesn't refute that. One game with a huge blunder does not contradict a hundred games without a huge blunder.
I'm rewriting the convention just to avoid the headache of justifying forge. Step 1: skip forge. Step 2: play to win. Step 3: don't forget psionic storm research.
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On August 21 2025 02:12 goody153 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2025 01:43 WombaT wrote:
For those not aware, you’re not arguing with someone who advocates for mixing in one base builds as part of your suite, but someone who actively thinks fast expanding PvZ is just outright bad OHHHH LOL Dont you just die in most times if you dont do FE or like modern Gateway expand. I legitimately cant think of a more reliable way of not dying to zerglings consistently early on Any zerg worth their salt will murder you if you cant reliably close your base with FE or aggressively harass them with early zealots while trying to close your base. Like zerglings are stupidly good units for players who know how to use them I think even if you dont die to zerglings killing zealots or probes like having zerglings in base is kinda a pain cause the zerg can absolutely tell what you are gonna do which is a bad sign if they can easily tell if you are buying few or alot of corsairs or even skipping it for early legs build 1 base isnt going to work as well as FE builds at the top level (duh) but for regular players it can actually be quite good: 2 gate openings are very safe and can expand/have various timings to attack. 1 gate tech is more fragile than 2 gate but can still work.
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Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On August 23 2025 03:43 mtcn77 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2025 22:44 Magic Powers wrote:On August 22 2025 21:48 mtcn77 wrote:On August 22 2025 16:56 Magic Powers wrote:
Just wait until someone tells mtcn that players like Mini are so incredibly good at the game that they can win despite making huge blunders, and not because of these blunders. Weren't you lecturing me a page back pros win because of builds, not because of being pros? I see a big, huge, giant elephant in the room. You seem to agree with what I'm saying after all. On August 20 2025 16:05 Magic Powers wrote:On August 20 2025 10:24 mtcn77 wrote:On August 20 2025 08:21 WombaT wrote:On August 20 2025 02:00 Ze'ev wrote:On August 02 2025 00:41 mtcn77 wrote:
I love how he steals ideas and tries to keep his cool, "Things have always been hard on zerg". Cry me a river.
I told before, protoss will have to rewind the clock back to the start of the millenium. No protoss has ever respected zerg back then, no reason to do it now. Just drop the FE bullshit. This isn't pvt. True vs barracks in the last asl is the real way forward. Compromised lategame, huge early game potential, the way Hero beat jyj with that last zerglings when jyj buckled and didn't make any more marines.
It might lose games, but even soulkey doesn't mop the floor with jyj until he switches back to mech and gets consumed by broodlings. Somethings got to give and you have to be ready to harness the situation. Take pvz back to 2000? I mean personally I always try to play oldschool strategies (for ex: I go hydra lurker zvt every game), I'm very much a fan of and champion for 1 gate tech or 2 gate openers in pvz. But protoss most definitely respected zerg back then, and feared them. Pvz became (marginally) more protoss favoured after forge expand builds became common. I do think protoss should practice and integrate 1 base builds more in pvz to keep zergs more honest, but ultimately its not going to solve modern pvz. Oh it absolutely will, mtcn77 knows better than well, Protoss pros and like 17 years of meta or whatever it is now Not that I know better, it could also be my selective memory, protoss never lost in macro setting in the games I watched. There were superb Archon vs Ultralisk tussles. Our friend also recalls pvz got better after fast forge expand. I say it is wrong, you have to be bisu to make it work. He also made corsair dt work, that doesn't mean it is the best strategy for the task. I also have a very different hierarchy. Many people say z>p>t. I have never felt other than z<p<t when I was watching. PS: like I learned recently watching Artosis in preliminary ASL matches, Korean pros don't sit and wait when they know they are better than their opponents, rather they play aggressively. Such styles should be reserved to high tier players. That is what I also witnessed in 2000s. That is what I mean PvZ was very different back then, protoss players never stayed in base. We never had zergs like we do now. In a way zerg had a more treacherous progress, but you could never tell where we started from looking at where we are. The reason why players aren't as good as the pros is because they don't copy the pros. More forge/gate FE rather than one base is the answer to winning more games in PvZ. There is no "but only the pros can do it". No, wrong. The pros do it because it wins, not because they're the only ones who can do it. Pros are the best players, and pros also play the best strategies. Not pros are better while playing worse strategies. They're the best players because they play the best strategies. The odd blunder doesn't refute that. One game with a huge blunder does not contradict a hundred games without a huge blunder. I'm rewriting the convention just to avoid the headache of justifying forge. Step 1: skip forge. Step 2: play to win. Step 3: don't forget psionic storm research.
You can’t just rewrite the convention though. This isn’t how any of this works.
Either you’ve got to show your ideas work in the fullest, or some progamer somehow stumbles across them and crushes it with them. Or they do it independently.
Bisu didn’t get his ‘Revolutionist’ moniker from just sitting around and making abstract theory posts.
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