EPTSuddenly Zerg looks amazing again. Soulkey being Soulkey. Hero and Queen regaining their form. Soma and Effort back.
ASL20 Preliminary Maps - Page 5
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TMNT
3208 Posts
Suddenly Zerg looks amazing again. Soulkey being Soulkey. Hero and Queen regaining their form. Soma and Effort back. | ||
GTR
51604 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden546 Posts
On June 25 2025 05:05 FlaShFTW wrote: If they made maps to hurt Soulkey after 4 straight wins, why didn't they do that for last season when he had won it 3 straight times and in fact gave him new maps like Metropolis and Death Valley? Lets not get off-topic. You said they were making the maps better for ZvT because "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general", which is, in your words, a "very dumb argument", as zerg hasnt struggled in ASL for many, many years (avg 3 zergs in ro8 over the last 5 years). But w/e man, keep baiting the race wars. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States10444 Posts
On June 26 2025 17:36 A.Alm wrote: Lets not get off-topic. You said they were making the maps better for ZvT because "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general", which is, in your words, a "very dumb argument", as zerg hasnt struggled in ASL for many, many years (avg 3 zergs in ro8 over the last 5 years). But w/e man, keep baiting the race wars. Zerg struggle against Terran. That's undisputed fact. If you want to keep using tiny sample sizes from ASL where Zergs get by because 1) soulkey is an auto qualifier, and 2) because they play protosses who are getting crushed by zerg as well, then sure, you be my guest to make those arguments. You're wrong, but you can make them. | ||
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Kraekkling
699 Posts
damn those lazy progamers!! what do I even pay taxes for...... Litmus T>Z T>=P P==Z or P>=Z Knockout T>=Z T==P Z>=P Screaming Sea T>Z T==P Z<=P | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1248 Posts
On June 27 2025 03:09 Kraekkling wrote: so since there still seem to be no games on the new maps + Show Spoiler + damn those lazy progamers!! what do I even pay taxes for...... Litmus T>Z T>=P P==Z or P>=Z Knockout T>=Z T==P Z>=P Screaming Sea T>Z T==P Z<=P screaming sea is zerg heaven. | ||
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TT1
Canada10040 Posts
the 2 clearest ones for me is Litmus looks like T map (3rd is far but u have double gas in main anyways, overall layout favors T), Screaming Sea looks like P map, no idea how Knockout is gonna play out feels like Z is gonna get destroyed vs T on Litmus and Screaming Sea, dunno why they're not adding neutral min patches on Screaming Sea so T can't just land CCs on islands vs Z | ||
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Kraekkling
699 Posts
why do you think so? as mentioned in the thread, I see no way for Zerg to play vs mech Terran, in particular upgrade mech. | ||
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TT1
Canada10040 Posts
if T opens standard SK terran with dropship play (into BCs later) how is Z supposed to play beyond 3 bases? if Z opens muta then they can't go into drop play to control the island, that style either synergizes with crazy zerg or hydra/lurk/defiler followup (on this map, mass hydra/plague style allows them to fight vs bio/vessel/drops/bc and defend the islands more cost efficiently later) but it's a very slow/heavy 3 base style being forced to play a style due to map layout isn't good map design, Z would basically be playing for a map control or bust style cus they can't go into lategame comfortably off mutas can Z open lurk drop style (or lurk into fast hive and drops later) on this map and defend vs drop play/vessels while T mass exps and starts adding tanks? or could they defend vs bio tank timings? dunno but i doubt it TLDR: basically Z is either forced to open muta into ultra and semi allin bust T, or they open muta into 3 base hydra/defiler/lurk so they can fight vs T and take their lowground 4th while slowly getting drops to fight for the islands (hard and slow style tho) | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden546 Posts
On June 27 2025 01:57 FlaShFTW wrote: Zerg struggle against Terran. That's undisputed fact. If you want to keep using tiny sample sizes from ASL where Zergs get by because 1) soulkey is an auto qualifier, and 2) because they play protosses who are getting crushed by zerg as well, then sure, you be my guest to make those arguments. You're wrong, but you can make them. Yeah bro, zerg crushes protoss and terran crushes zerg, its all just based on what match-up you get!!! This game sucks and needs to be fixed!!! 😅 | ||
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TMNT
3208 Posts
On June 28 2025 03:59 A.Alm wrote: Yeah bro, zerg crushes protoss and terran crushes zerg, its all just based on what match-up you get!!! This game sucks and needs to be fixed!!! 😅 I don't want to dive into the can of worm that is balance talk, but it is true that your argument is not very logical (or in FlashFTW's word, dumb, which imo is unnecessarily harsh). Your argument being: + Show Spoiler + "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general" - yet the last 5 years of ASL tournaments (10 seasons) have a TvZ winrate of 50~%. The last 5 ASL's also always had atleast 2 (avg 3~) zergs in the ro8 (so not only SK). In fact this is a very common line of thought among BW fans: "race X has Y players in Ro8/4 in this or that ASL, why are they talking about balance" - as if there is a causative relationship betwwen the two. With the cup format of ASL, the win rate or race distribution will always converge towards 50% and 33/33/33. Because even if there are balance issues, tier 1 players will still overcome the disadvantage in the weak matchup of their race to beat tier 2 players and enter the next round. Say you have something like this in the earlier rounds: - Hero > sSak , Queen > Mong , Soulkey > Barrack - Light > Action , Rush > JD , Royal > Killer There you have exactly 50% win rate but it tells you nothing about balance of the matchup. And the reason for the 33/33/33 distribution could very well be about Zerg beating Protoss to enter Ro8 (which if you check recent ASLs, have happenned quite abundantly), so once again it says nothing about the balance of TvZ. | ||
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Kraekkling
699 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/x8cfF11C/ss.png) | ||
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TT1
Canada10040 Posts
imo if they wanna go with this type of layout they need to add an inbase backdoor expo or something | ||
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TMNT
3208 Posts
It will be boycotted in daily proleague after a week, banned by all players in Ro24/16 of ASL. When forced to play in Ro8 onwards, the player of the disadvantageous race will cheese or do some wacky build to end the game/get it out of the way asap. | ||
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GTR
51604 Posts
On June 28 2025 07:21 TT1 wrote: lol they made 9/12 ramps wider, makes it worse for Z xd imo if they wanna go with this type of layout they need to add an inbase backdoor expo or something they also changed the structure of 3 of the islands so that you can't see outside of the island itself unless you have air vision | ||
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oxKnu
1259 Posts
It has a lot of potential for some pretty wild skirmish-based games. Bring it on. | ||
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Kyle8
39 Posts
the whole game would be completely different just based on maps heh ; why are we always watching clone maps? | ||
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goody153
44280 Posts
On June 30 2025 11:46 Kyle8 wrote: meh; i like them trying new maps; and shaking up the meta the whole game would be completely different just based on maps heh ; why are we always watching clone maps? Sc2 got boring after they stopped bringing in interesting maps cause people complained about it. Now every game looks identical Some of the most enjoyable spectator experience are the craziest imbalanced maps like sparkle. Sprikling along erratic maps is just better for the game | ||
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TMNT
3208 Posts
There's no fun for Protoss players playing PvZ on Neo Arkanoid (~ 99% lose with close spawn Hydra bust) or Monty Hall (~ 20% win rate no matter what strategy they try). There's no fun for Terran players playing TvP on 76 or Troy (insane demand on mechanics for 30+ minutes each game, only to earn a 35-40% win rate). There's no fun for Zerg players playing any matchup on any one-base isolated island map. It's not shaking up the meta when one race just beats the other repeatedly on those maps. The most fun map in recent memory is still 76 imo, because it brings out long games with unique strategies and rarely used units (DA, BC, Ghost, Devourers). TvZ is somewhat balanced on that map (52.7%), but PvZ is 41.7% and TvP is 36.2%. Monty Hall is also kind of acceptable for TvP (53%) and TvZ (54%) but unplayable for PvZ (22%). To have the best of both world, the solution is, once again, to have matchup specific maps. Such simple solution but for whatever reasons the leading figures of the BW scene have been deliberately obtuse to it for decades. Let's just play Monty Hall in TvP and TvZ, and 76 only in TvZ. How hard is it to do that, seriously? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands1248 Posts
On June 30 2025 19:11 TMNT wrote: The problem with weird maps is they break the balance of the game. It's good for neutral viewers and only for a few games just for entertainment, but it's not fun for the players. There's no fun for Protoss players playing PvZ on Neo Arkanoid (~ 99% lose with close spawn Hydra bust) or Monty Hall (~ 20% win rate no matter what strategy they try). There's no fun for Terran players playing TvP on 76 or Troy (insane demand on mechanics for 30+ minutes each game, only to earn a 35-40% win rate). There's no fun for Zerg players playing any matchup on any one-base isolated island map. It's not shaking up the meta when one race just beats the other repeatedly on those maps. The most fun map in recent memory is still 76 imo, because it brings out long games with unique strategies and rarely used units (DA, BC, Ghost, Devourers). TvZ is somewhat balanced on that map (52.7%), but PvZ is 41.7% and TvP is 36.2%. Monty Hall is also kind of acceptable for TvP (53%) and TvZ (54%) but unplayable for PvZ (22%). To have the best of both world, the solution is, once again, to have matchup specific maps. Such simple solution but for whatever reasons the leading figures of the BW scene have been deliberately obtuse to it for decades. Let's just play Monty Hall in TvP and TvZ, and 76 only in TvZ. How hard is it to do that, seriously? I actually think that Screaming Sea is good for zerg. Bridge section is ultimate Lurker hold heaven vs protoss and terran. I think the map screw protoss the most. | ||
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![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/0RBnP4vX/3535t.png)
