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United States10570 Posts
On June 19 2025 07:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Has any game happen on the new maps ? The usual pros i follow they are runing proleagues and Bo3 sponsored games in the last season maps still. Im fairly curious about the new Circuit Breaker. I just watched Artosis review about the map. And he said how hard it was to hold top bottom and mid bottom and im confident that wasnt the case at all for terran. In fact CB was one of the first maps to allow terran to do a 4 bases setup. Idk i feel like Terran is going to have it harder in this new version but we will see. And obviously the island map will be interesting too but i have my little idea how zerg will aproach this matchup with the amount of ground bases that there is still without the need of drops.
I doubt the pros are really practicing on the maps yet with them being in pretty early stages, probably they'll start adding them to the proleague rotation when they hit 0.8 and definitely when they are in 0.9 stages.
I agree, the Terran 4 base setup will be much harder on this map with another alley to defend, makes flanks much more likely and minimizes ability to completely wall with depots. The advantage is the 3rd mineral only is on high ground now instead of on low ground with the ramp right above.
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On June 19 2025 07:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Has any game happen on the new maps ? The usual pros i follow they are runing proleagues and Bo3 sponsored games in the last season maps still. Im fairly curious about the new Circuit Breaker. I just watched Artosis review about the map. And he said how hard it was to hold top bottom and mid bottom and im confident that wasnt the case at all for terran. In fact CB was one of the first maps to allow terran to do a 4 bases setup. Idk i feel like Terran is going to have it harder in this new version but we will see. And obviously the island map will be interesting too but i have my little idea how zerg will aproach this matchup with the amount of ground bases that there is still without the need of drops.
ive been monitoring the VODs for several days
so far no games, except sSak who played Pole Star 1.1
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Everything is screaming anti-soulkey
but Litmus = hell to establish 3rd base for protoss + very hydra bustable at nat
Screaming Sea = how the heck does P or T push a Z ? Z controls ONE chokepoint near bridge and there is NO way to attack Z?
New circuit breaker map looks awesome but mineral only 3rd hurts Protosses when facing Z
I fail to see how this map pool is in any way anti-Soulkey
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I think the anti [insert name] is mostly bullshit narrative. Sometimes you just have 1 or 2 maps that look difficult for the champion of the last season, and people lean into that thought.
ASL19 map pool is probably less "anti Soulkey" than ASL18. Shouldn't it be more "anti Soulkey" instead?
When Terrans won 3 seasons in a row before Soulkey, we didn't see the maps getting progressively harder for them either, and the season Soulkey broke that Terran winning streak, the maps were good for TvZ too.
And they probably always start creating those maps before knowing the champion of the previous season anyway.
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On June 20 2025 09:08 TMNT wrote:
I think the anti [insert name] is mostly bullshit narrative. Sometimes you just have 1 or 2 maps that look difficult for the champion of the last season, and people lean into that thought.
Yet you look at ASL5 and see that the map pool was indeed created to hard counter flash and prevent his fourpeat. Look what happened. There was precedent, and I won't be surprised if it happens again in this map pool vs soulkey. Surprised it took them until this season and SK winning four in a row to actually start nerfing the dude.
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On June 20 2025 12:02 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2025 09:08 TMNT wrote:
I think the anti [insert name] is mostly bullshit narrative. Sometimes you just have 1 or 2 maps that look difficult for the champion of the last season, and people lean into that thought.
Yet you look at ASL5 and see that the map pool was indeed created to hard counter flash and prevent his fourpeat. Look what happened. There was precedent, and I won't be surprised if it happens again in this map pool vs soulkey. Surprised it took them until this season and SK winning four in a row to actually start nerfing the dude.
The way i see it is not only about preventing a a fourpeat but also the level he was showing was just above everyone.
You could truly expect FlaSH to win any series before the games starting. I think the sentiment with Soulkey is that he is beatable. Specially online. SK doesnt dominate like FLaSh was doing at all. I remember when those Ultimate battle bo9 first started. They literally had to change the players cuz FlaSh just kept winning every series lol. Now the question is. Will you put anti ''Soulkey'' maps if FlaSh was competing in the tournament ? I usually dont agree one bit with TMNT but if you compare ASL19 pool to the ones before. You could see that by any means is harder than ASL17 or ASL18. Im just guessing and speculating but i think ASL was counting on FlaSh coming back. But Surgery happen. Anyway thats imo the reason we are not seeing extreme takes to the MP. Soulkey while winning ASLs back to back is still not as dominant outside this competition like FlaSh was.
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On June 20 2025 18:38 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2025 12:02 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote:On June 20 2025 09:08 TMNT wrote:
I think the anti [insert name] is mostly bullshit narrative. Sometimes you just have 1 or 2 maps that look difficult for the champion of the last season, and people lean into that thought.
Yet you look at ASL5 and see that the map pool was indeed created to hard counter flash and prevent his fourpeat. Look what happened. There was precedent, and I won't be surprised if it happens again in this map pool vs soulkey. Surprised it took them until this season and SK winning four in a row to actually start nerfing the dude. The way i see it is not only about preventing a a fourpeat but also the level he was showing was just above everyone. You could truly expect FlaSH to win any series before the games starting. I think the sentiment with Soulkey is that he is beatable. Specially online. SK doesnt dominate like FLaSh was doing at all. I remember when those Ultimate battle bo9 first started. They literally had to change the players cuz FlaSh just kept winning every series lol. Now the question is. Will you put anti ''Soulkey'' maps if FlaSh was competing in the tournament ? I usually dont agree one bit with TMNT but if you compare ASL19 pool to the ones before. You could see that by any means is harder than ASL17 or ASL18. Im just guessing and speculating but i think ASL was counting on FlaSh coming back. But Surgery happen. Anyway thats imo the reason we are not seeing extreme takes to the MP. Soulkey while winning ASLs back to back is still not as dominant outside this competition like FlaSh was.
Funny thing is SnOw basically took flash's spot in online dominance. SnOw and Light specifically have been blocking Soulkey's online dominance from happening.
That aside the Map pool looks decent for zerg. Specifically the island map looks good.
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United States10570 Posts
Island maps without some form of compensation to zerg are historically bad for Zerg. Not sure how someone says it's good for Z.
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On June 20 2025 18:46 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2025 18:38 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On June 20 2025 12:02 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote:On June 20 2025 09:08 TMNT wrote:
I think the anti [insert name] is mostly bullshit narrative. Sometimes you just have 1 or 2 maps that look difficult for the champion of the last season, and people lean into that thought.
Yet you look at ASL5 and see that the map pool was indeed created to hard counter flash and prevent his fourpeat. Look what happened. There was precedent, and I won't be surprised if it happens again in this map pool vs soulkey. Surprised it took them until this season and SK winning four in a row to actually start nerfing the dude. The way i see it is not only about preventing a a fourpeat but also the level he was showing was just above everyone. You could truly expect FlaSH to win any series before the games starting. I think the sentiment with Soulkey is that he is beatable. Specially online. SK doesnt dominate like FLaSh was doing at all. I remember when those Ultimate battle bo9 first started. They literally had to change the players cuz FlaSh just kept winning every series lol. Now the question is. Will you put anti ''Soulkey'' maps if FlaSh was competing in the tournament ? I usually dont agree one bit with TMNT but if you compare ASL19 pool to the ones before. You could see that by any means is harder than ASL17 or ASL18. Im just guessing and speculating but i think ASL was counting on FlaSh coming back. But Surgery happen. Anyway thats imo the reason we are not seeing extreme takes to the MP. Soulkey while winning ASLs back to back is still not as dominant outside this competition like FlaSh was. Funny thing is SnOw basically took flash's spot in online dominance. SnOw and Light specifically have been blocking Soulkey's online dominance from happening. That aside the Map pool looks decent for zerg. Specifically the island map looks good.
I have to clarify something here. While i said the map doesnt look harder for zerg compared to previous seasons it is still a MP that has been using maps that are actually difficult to play in and that so far Soulkey and Hero has been consistent to play in.
ASL20 is actually a harder mappool aiming specifically at Soulkey And that means zerg so is not really a decent MP for zerg at all lol common now. Now from a zerg POV the island mas specifically is going to be hard but is giving zerg the chance to no be behind from the get go. Idk if that will be enough. So we will see how progamers figure this out. Or they just ban the map entirely like they did with Death Valley.
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On June 20 2025 22:50 FlaShFTW wrote:
Island maps without some form of compensation to zerg are historically bad for Zerg. Not sure how someone says it's good for Z.
but its not an island map? its a easy 4 base for Z with literally ONE choke to defend. No way to sneak around map with T, no way to push any other path other than one bridge with P
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I like Screaming Sea and Litmus. I watched Artie's breakdown which was nice.
Pretty stoked for this season. Wondering about the dates. If it lines up, I might be able to attend a few days live which would be super cool and a bucket item checked off.
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Many people don't know the way to take down Soulkey. Basically, SK can't lose to Protoss and Terran, because of 2 reasons he plays Zerg and he is SK who is smarter than other Zerg.
If organizer actually wants to beat SK, they should allow 4 Zerg (include SK) go to semi-finals. Look at the map pool, ASL really did that.
Screaming Sea saves Protoss, it doesn't save Zerg. When Terran is eliminated super soon, maybe before quarter-finals. ASL 20 just remain P and Z, then Z and Z, finally we need a bit luck for failure of SK.
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I feel that Screaming Sea is going to be a disaster for Zerg. Terran will only go mech and defend bridge until Zerg die off from starvation. The level of turtling is going to be maximum.
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On June 18 2025 23:53 FlaShFTW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 18:43 A.Alm wrote:On June 18 2025 09:52 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 16 2025 05:15 ScoutWBF wrote:On June 15 2025 12:43 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 15 2025 05:34 Kraekkling wrote:i really like (4) Knockout so far the thingy in front of the naturals is a small area of low ground this will affect stuff like hydra busts in pvz and sunken busts in tvz + Show Spoiler + oh shit is this the way to fix TvZ and ZvP??? this is really interesting to solve these early game issues for both matchups. Perhaps this pushes Terran to going harder into fast ebay builds. Does TvZ need a buffed natural sunken line? It feels like the Terran only has a very small window to even bust the Zerg and struggles winning before Defilers are out and it's a huge disadvantage from there. Terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over Zerg in general. On most normal maps, Terrans have a 55-58% win rate. It's very difficult for Zerg in the matchup. Soulkey is the only Zerg right now who's making ZvT look easy, but it's not. Second gas in the main is interesting... means Zerg gets more options in ZvT with 3 gas and taking a 3rd base means 4 gas now for a short period of time before the 2nd geyser is exhausted, so gives them timing windows. Triple gas in PvZ means more gas intensiive army comps like heavier templar/goon concepts which will be interesting. Not entirely sure how it'll impact TvP that much yet... More tanks for Terran I guess? "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general" - yet the last 5 years of ASL tournaments (10 seasons) have a TvZ winrate of 50~%. The last 5 ASL's also always had atleast 2 (avg 3~) zergs in the ro8 (so not only SK). These maps are worse for zerg, not better bro. I think these maps look really cool, can't wait to try them out. Using ASL stats which are low sample size compared to the hundreds of games the pros play on for daily proleague and sponmatches is a very dumb argument. Eloboard clearly lays out that by and large, Zergs struggle against Terran. There are some maps where Zerg will have better times against Terran like 2p maps or Metropolis, Radeon, but they get wrecked on maps like Citadel, Retro, Vermeer, Pole Star. TvZ winrates by ASL: ASL19: 14-16. Without Soulkey: 12-9 SSL: 14-15. Without Soulkey: 11-4 ASL17: 11-15. Without Soulkey: 11-14 ASL16: 18-18. Without Soulkey: 13-11
Ok then why are you listing the ASL win-rates? U rly think they dont use the 4 ASL wins in a row from Soulkey (even lower sample size than last 10 season TvZ balance) when making the new maps?
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This is insane to me. Flash won 3 in a row and we got the most insane map pool of all time, completely tanking terran performance.
Now Soulkey is dominating even harder than Flash was and we get this? Sure some of it is anti zerg. But they are going nowhere near as hard. Like it's not that hard to make maps that eliminate all the Zergs. Do a real island map with 1-2 geysers on the starting island. Do a map with no gas at the main or the natural.
Plus with their new veto rules any tricky map is just gonna get vetoed to hell till the Ro8 anyway as seen with Death Valley last season.
Maybe if he does 5 or 6 in a row we'll get a real anti zerg pool?
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On June 21 2025 19:08 iFU.pauline wrote:
I feel that Screaming Sea is going to be a disaster for Zerg. Terran will only go mech and defend bridge until Zerg die off from starvation. The level of turtling is going to be maximum.
it is a terrible map. It will maybe be morr hated than Troy lol.
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United States10570 Posts
On June 22 2025 02:04 A.Alm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2025 23:53 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 18 2025 18:43 A.Alm wrote:On June 18 2025 09:52 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 16 2025 05:15 ScoutWBF wrote:On June 15 2025 12:43 FlaShFTW wrote:On June 15 2025 05:34 Kraekkling wrote:i really like (4) Knockout so far the thingy in front of the naturals is a small area of low ground this will affect stuff like hydra busts in pvz and sunken busts in tvz + Show Spoiler + oh shit is this the way to fix TvZ and ZvP??? this is really interesting to solve these early game issues for both matchups. Perhaps this pushes Terran to going harder into fast ebay builds. Does TvZ need a buffed natural sunken line? It feels like the Terran only has a very small window to even bust the Zerg and struggles winning before Defilers are out and it's a huge disadvantage from there. Terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over Zerg in general. On most normal maps, Terrans have a 55-58% win rate. It's very difficult for Zerg in the matchup. Soulkey is the only Zerg right now who's making ZvT look easy, but it's not. Second gas in the main is interesting... means Zerg gets more options in ZvT with 3 gas and taking a 3rd base means 4 gas now for a short period of time before the 2nd geyser is exhausted, so gives them timing windows. Triple gas in PvZ means more gas intensiive army comps like heavier templar/goon concepts which will be interesting. Not entirely sure how it'll impact TvP that much yet... More tanks for Terran I guess? "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general" - yet the last 5 years of ASL tournaments (10 seasons) have a TvZ winrate of 50~%. The last 5 ASL's also always had atleast 2 (avg 3~) zergs in the ro8 (so not only SK). These maps are worse for zerg, not better bro. I think these maps look really cool, can't wait to try them out. Using ASL stats which are low sample size compared to the hundreds of games the pros play on for daily proleague and sponmatches is a very dumb argument. Eloboard clearly lays out that by and large, Zergs struggle against Terran. There are some maps where Zerg will have better times against Terran like 2p maps or Metropolis, Radeon, but they get wrecked on maps like Citadel, Retro, Vermeer, Pole Star. TvZ winrates by ASL: ASL19: 14-16. Without Soulkey: 12-9 SSL: 14-15. Without Soulkey: 11-4 ASL17: 11-15. Without Soulkey: 11-14 ASL16: 18-18. Without Soulkey: 13-11 Ok then why are you listing the ASL win-rates? U rly think they dont use the 4 ASL wins in a row from Soulkey (even lower sample size than last 10 season TvZ balance) when making the new maps?
If they made maps to hurt Soulkey after 4 straight wins, why didn't they do that for last season when he had won it 3 straight times and in fact gave him new maps like Metropolis and Death Valley?
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SK is a leg up from his fellow Zerg pack. It's almost impossible to make a map pool that targets SK, because if SK suffers, other Zergs would suffer even more, and there would probably be no Zergs in ro8. That's clearly not good for viewership.
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On June 25 2025 07:15 bochs wrote:
SK is a leg up from his fellow Zerg pack. It's almost impossible to make a map pool that targets SK, because if SK suffers, other Zergs would suffer even more, and there would probably be no Zergs in ro8. That's clearly not good for viewership.
Yeah Soulkey is a lone exception. When Flash was dominating there were a couple other terrans who also did fairly well. Last, and Light for example. HerO does semi-well, and so did queen again after a few down years, and I expext SoMa to do well now that he is coming back on the 25th or 27th.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/0RBnP4vX/3535t.png)
