EPT+ Show Spoiler [Radeon 1.1] +
![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2FbRK2tD%2FbtsOCNcHjoN%2FSKxJtfD9nVL8lSoTqrPUA1%2Fimg.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [Pole Star 1.1] +
![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2FzFfqx%2FbtsOBnsrJQn%2FsknEzwpORY35kgcGR7tL31%2Fimg.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [Screaming Sea] +
![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2FbI8dKt%2FbtsOCiqnYzD%2FbjBOvigDae6rrwgJSS01w0%2Fimg.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [Litmus] +
![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2FHcGhG%2FbtsOAYtdTip%2F0eoCvQyNnHi4e5w735XiUK%2Fimg.jpg)
+ Show Spoiler [Knock Out] +
![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2FdlLSEb%2FbtsODF0PZ1g%2FCx3Myisl9KETz69fbU0lWK%2Fimg.png)
ASL20 Preliminary Maps
| Forum Index > BW General |
FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [Radeon 1.1] + + Show Spoiler [Pole Star 1.1] + + Show Spoiler [Screaming Sea] + + Show Spoiler [Litmus] + + Show Spoiler [Knock Out] + | ||
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Kraekkling
409 Posts
not all of the maps had descriptions attached to them this is probably the first batch and we'll see some more maps to come | ||
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Kraekkling
409 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/0RWRK5gX/2-Litmus-0-72.jpg) + Show Spoiler + Second gas in the main has 1500 gas 48 mineral patch blocking back path neutral buildings are stacked: - 6 x Stasis Cell - 2 x Protoss Temple (2)울돌목 0.72 -> sth like "Screaming Sea" ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/v6ytDM1m/2-0-72.jpg) + Show Spoiler + Resource values are kinda all over the place Main/Nat: 1500minerals // 5000 gas low ground exp: 1000minerals // 2000 gas high ground exp: 1000minerals // 3000 gas top left island: 1000minerals // 3000 gas bottom right, all 3 islands: 1500minerals // 5000 gas Top left is the only island blocked by mineral patch (4) Attitude ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/Mx3rtYgJ/4-Attitude-0-70.jpg) (4) Knockout ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/6cBDS98v/4-Knock-Out0-70.png) + Show Spoiler + ▣ KnockOut 0.70 ▶ Type: Hill-type macro-focused map ▶ Size: 128 × 128 ▶ Players: 4 players (Positions at 1, 5, 7, and 11 o’clock) ▶ Tileset: Space Platform ▶ Creator: Kim Eung-seo (Earthattack) ▶ Release Date: 2025-06-13 ▶ Concept KnockOut is a reinterpretation of the former pro-league official map Circuit Breaker, aiming to improve upon its weaknesses and adapt it to the current meta. ▶ Features The main base is on the 3rd level, and the natural expansion is on the 2nd level. In front of the natural is a basin on the 1st level (2 tiles wide). This design allows defensive structures at the natural entrance to have a 50% chance of evading attacks from early units like Hydralisks, Dragoons, and Marines, offering more stability in the early to mid-game. There are two bridges in front of the natural, shorter in length than those on Circuit Breaker. The mineral-only expansions are placed on hills to make them easier to defend. From the mineral-only expansion to the edge of the map, vision-blocking terrain surrounds the main base, simulating the effect of a 4-level-high wall, thereby making air attacks more viable. ▶ Additional Details The main base entrance is 4 tiles wide but is narrowed to 2 tiles by placing 0-value minerals on both sides. The main base entrance can be fully blocked with 1 Barracks and 2 Supply Depots. The natural expansion is 8 tiles wide. The gas expansion’s entrance can be blocked with 3 Pylons. The center of the map, except for the very middle, does not allow buildings to be placed. ▶ Rush Distance (Worker Unit Standard): Horizontal: 35 seconds Vertical: 28 seconds Diagonal: 39 seconds Between main base entrances ▶ Resource Amounts Main Base: 9 Mineral Patches + 1 Gas Geyser (4 locations) Natural: 7 Mineral Patches + 1 Gas Geyser (4 locations) Gas Expansion: 7 Mineral Patches + 1 Gas Geyser (4 locations) Mineral-Only: 6 Mineral Patches (4 locations) (4) Pole Star 1.1 ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/1GDzjk9b/4-Pole-Star-1-1.jpg) + Show Spoiler + [Pole Star] Version 1.1 ▶ Player Count: 4 players ▶ Size: 128 × 128 ▶ Tileset: Space Platform ▶ Creator: Jaemin Kim (KM-) ▶ Map Style: Control Point Domination / Power Struggle ▶ Rush Distance (Main Entrance ↔ Entrance, worker travel time): Horizontal/Vertical – 29s, Diagonal – 39s ▶ Last Update: 2025/06/15 (Version 1.1) Resources Main Base: 9M 1G × 4 locations Natural Expansion: 7M 1G × 4 locations Expansions: 7M (1500) 1G (3000) × 4 locations 7M (1500) 1G (3000) × 4 locations Center: 2 mineral patches (571 and 428 each) Concept Designed as a power struggle map with multiple rush paths, focusing on army movement rotating around the central area. Although all additional expansions are located on the outskirts, they are connected to the center. Controlling the basin terrain in front of the natural expansion and utilizing tactical unit movement are key. Other Features The main base entrance is narrowed using a mineral patch (value 16), similar to the "Metropolis" map, allowing a worker to block enemy worker access. Each side of the natural expansion entrance has one helper egg for sim-city, allowing a building layout of 7 tiles high by 8 tiles wide. However, the egg positions are adjusted to prevent full wall-offs (complete blockades). The area from the natural entrance marked by a special terrain border (Level 1 zone) does not allow building construction inside the boundary. The 2nd-floor gas expansion (same elevation as main) can be sim-city walled using 3 pylons at both the ramp and flat entrances. The 3rd-floor gas expansions (at 3, 6, 9, and 12 o'clock) can be walled using 4 pylons at the hill entrance. Changes from 1.0 to 1.1 Changed the main entrance narrowing method from using eggs to a mineral patch. Slightly expanded the buildable area on the main attack route. Adjusted some terrain related to unit movement and made general terrain refinements. Fixed a bug where larva would die in specific placements when adding an extra hatchery at the 11 o'clock ground gas expansion. (4) Radeon 1.1 + Show Spoiler + no real changes; mostly bug and positional balance fixes 1.0 to 1.1 Amendments - Fixed an issue where juggling could not enter to attack the Photon Cannon when the canon rushed in the front yard at 11pm/5pm - Juggling can now enter both directions in the direction of the Photon Cannon in all front yards - Create a little more space to build turret on the battlefield - Show Sim City Guide - Fixed the problem of turning around when sending workers from the main camp to the front yard in some startups - Other bug fixes, etc. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
The 2p looks very interesting, so many different attack paths everywhere. Island map is so weird to me. Also how does Zerg play this map without some creep for nydus on some of the islands? | ||
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Kraekkling
409 Posts
the thingy in front of the naturals is a small area of low ground this will affect stuff like hydra busts in pvz and sunken busts in tvz + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/0RBnP4vX/3535t.png) | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5536 Posts
On June 15 2025 04:54 FlaShFTW wrote: A lot of old map reinterpretations: Polypoid -> Attitude and CB -> Knock Out. The 2p looks very interesting, so many different attack paths everywhere. Island map is so weird to me. Also how does Zerg play this map without some creep for nydus on some of the islands? Litmus looks like a crossover of Butter and Ride of Valkyries. | ||
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
On June 15 2025 05:43 maybenexttime wrote: Litmus looks like a crossover of Butter and Ride of Valkyries. butter and neo dark origin | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5536 Posts
You're right. Looks quite interesting. | ||
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
attitude looks interesting but pretty standard map xd | ||
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prosatan
Romania7954 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7954 Posts
On June 15 2025 06:12 TT1 wrote: the nat to nat distance on litmus looks really short, it just looks like a very t favored map cus all the expos on the right side are forward (short rush distance for t to push and reinforce), tvz in particular z doesn't even have a "regular" expo with 1 ramp, there's only that regular 3rd expo on the right side but the ramp is wide and it's super forward attitude looks interesting but pretty standard map xd TT1 9999 posts  | ||
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llIH
Norway2143 Posts
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GTR
51430 Posts
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TT1
Canada10000 Posts
 10k thx prosatan | ||
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Trogdor87
5 Posts
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SCRVN
65 Posts
When I was a child, I thought a map which has only one path to move on ground and air/sea will be around the path. And now my dream came true. I know 99% amateur + pro players don't like Screaming Sea, unless they get pay to play on this best map. I know 99.99% Screaming Sea won't be picked for ASL 20, ASL 200, ASL 2000. I will spend so much my time to play on Screaming Sea with computer. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
On June 15 2025 05:34 Kraekkling wrote: i really like (4) Knockout so far the thingy in front of the naturals is a small area of low ground this will affect stuff like hydra busts in pvz and sunken busts in tvz + Show Spoiler + oh shit is this the way to fix TvZ and ZvP??? this is really interesting to solve these early game issues for both matchups. Perhaps this pushes Terran to going harder into fast ebay builds. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
On June 15 2025 06:12 TT1 wrote: the nat to nat distance on litmus looks really short, it just looks like a very t favored map cus all the expos on the right side are forward (short rush distance for t to push and reinforce), tvz in particular z doesn't even have a "regular" expo with 1 ramp, there's only that regular 3rd expo on the right side but the ramp is wide and it's super forward attitude looks interesting but pretty standard map xd I think they should add eggs or somehing to narrow the right side third to help zerg take a 3rd. The only nice thing is that the 12/6 thirds, while double choke, it would take forever for Terran to go through the middle, then see lurkers defending toward the center, to go all the way around the edge of the map (though a 2nd group of marines could come from that side). Looks very interesting, I think it'll be a pretty cool map. | ||
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prosatan
Romania7954 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines139 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
I long for the days when we had more tileset variety, btw. Anyway - can't wait to see some high level games on these. My favourite part of any new ASL season  | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6547 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
On June 15 2025 23:34 M3t4PhYzX wrote: Knockout looks very interesting, love narrow that low ground idea. "Screaming Sea" will be hated. Litmus should provide for some interesting games. Attitude is thoroughly boring (maybe there's an intended irony in the name?). I long for the days when we had more tileset variety, btw. Anyway - can't wait to see some high level games on these. My favourite part of any new ASL season Tileset variety is hard, they can’t use snow tileset because it blinds the players. Ashen is also rarely used too. Desert not as utilized. I do think Ashen and Desert can be used a bit more but I think the ramps aren’t as great to use as the Twilight, Jungle, and Platform | ||
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4336 Posts
As for snow... I thought they could use the no snow ground a la tau cross to get around the blinding factor. | ||
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Kraekkling
409 Posts
ash world has only two elevation levels and overall lacks visual variety, so it's hard to make maps diverse and appealing snow world is underused imo. the problems with snow being too bright date back to CRT monitors era and aren't as relevant today. it's also possible to completely skip it (eg tau cross) desert is very nice and could see more use imo. we only had death valley, apocalypse and butter recently. there were some very pretty desert maps submitted by foreign map makers this season + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/JjHVN5ky/2-Typology-1-00.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/pBQbpPkN/Terraform-2-3.jpg) ![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/r27DcwFD/2-High-Noon-1-1.jpg) badlands is really versatile and has seen a lot of use recently: metropolis, eclipse, retro, kick back | ||
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Kraekkling
409 Posts
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ScoutWBF
Germany599 Posts
On June 15 2025 12:43 FlaShFTW wrote: oh shit is this the way to fix TvZ and ZvP??? this is really interesting to solve these early game issues for both matchups. Perhaps this pushes Terran to going harder into fast ebay builds. Does TvZ need a buffed natural sunken line? It feels like the Terran only has a very small window to even bust the Zerg and struggles winning before Defilers are out and it's a huge disadvantage from there. | ||
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oshibori_probe
United States2933 Posts
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4336 Posts
On June 16 2025 05:33 oshibori_probe wrote: Sad to see the 2nd path to the main concept back with Litmus. Protoss just autoloses to zerg. ORRRRRRR (Recalls Destination memories) Easy DT Sneak into Zerg Main WIN ??? =p (works vs terran too!) | ||
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smilevideo
5 Posts
i always found it weird that zerg sucks on island maps considering devourers beat everything in pure air-to-air battles and it's not even close | ||
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Psyonic_Reaver
United States4336 Posts
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tankgirl
387 Posts
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namkraft
444 Posts
Btw the original link seems dead. new one: https://910map.tistory.com/225 | ||
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Rovant1c
China71 Posts
"Battle of Myeongnyang"is a part of "Imjin War" (임진왜란/壬辰倭亂/万历朝鲜战争 1592-1598). That was the Japan invasion of Korea, and China helped Korea win the war. https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/명량해협 https://room4data.tistory.com/864 Here are some maps and pictures: https://baike.baidu.com/item/鸣梁海战/3191002 | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6547 Posts
(2)울돌목 0.72 + Show Spoiler + (2)Litmus 0.72 + Show Spoiler + (4)KnockOut0.70 + Show Spoiler + *기존 맵 수정* (4)Pole Star 1.1 + Show Spoiler + (4)Radeon 1.1 + Show Spoiler + (4)Metropolis 1.0 ==> 1.1 수정 예정 Some changes are coming to Metropòlis but no details yet. + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2Fb5N86n%2FbtsL4Gae1sU%2FKVr4KpNgCkBriOSaZB4oR1%2Fimg.jpg) *기존 맵* (3)Dominator SE 2.0 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://img1.daumcdn.net/thumb/R1280x0/?scode=mtistory2&fname=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.kakaocdn.net%2Fdn%2Fcs5j7r%2FbtsL3QYWCUU%2F0qeT1Ag7jhOFZ8vB1LYtt1%2Fimg.jpg) | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands803 Posts
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines139 Posts
On June 16 2025 19:19 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Hope the Island map does not get includes into the map pool. Naw we gotta stop soulkey somehow | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On June 16 2025 01:49 FlaShFTW wrote: Tileset variety is hard, they can’t use snow tileset because it blinds the players. Ashen is also rarely used too. Desert not as utilized. I do think Ashen and Desert can be used a bit more but I think the ramps aren’t as great to use as the Twilight, Jungle, and Platform The point about ramps used to be true, at least to a degree, before 1.22. With the new ramps released there's a lot more raw tile material to work with now – though the new ramps are consistently so badly bugged (mostly with cliff vision due to complete disregard for proper terrain level flags on the unwalkable subtiles, but many are also too narrow to allow proper unit pathing for single-width ramps) that they aren't actually the simple "plug-in-and-play" solution they were meant to be… The fact that these exact bugs aren't fixed in most of these maps speaks to a point, that's probably more important: That many map makers aren't actually that skilled on the technical level, or at least unwilling to spend the necessary time on their maps to properly design and debug their terrain – which explains perfectly well, why Ash and Ice are the most under-used terrain types: Both have very specific downsides and requirements, to design well for to avoid these issues, which makes bringing a map to a playable state, within acceptable aesthetic constraints, more work-intensive as well as requiring some very specific knowledge about certain custom terrain blends, than any other tileset. | ||
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On June 16 2025 03:07 Kraekkling wrote: jungle/space/twilight see a lot of use ash world has only two elevation levels and overall lacks visual variety, so it's hard to make maps diverse and appealing snow world is underused imo. the problems with snow being too bright date back to CRT monitors era and aren't as relevant today. it's also possible to completely skip it (eg tau cross) desert is very nice and could see more use imo. we only had death valley, apocalypse and butter recently. there were some very pretty desert maps submitted by foreign map makers this season + Show Spoiler + badlands is really versatile and has seen a lot of use recently: metropolis, eclipse, retro, kick back Ash maps looking like a barren wasteland can be an aesthtic choice of its own, though. It's not like most of these maps have sophisticated decorative concepts, or terrain mechanics constrictions, that would necessarily require any certain tileset to be used. It should also be noted, that tileset choices for Korean competitive maps have become a lot more varied since 1.22 came out:
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Freakling
Germany1529 Posts
On June 16 2025 08:37 smilevideo wrote: wonder if those land separation distances are long enough on screaming sea for zerg to actually win air i always found it weird that zerg sucks on island maps considering devourers beat everything in pure air-to-air battles and it's not even close It's the long, expensive tech path to the late game comp that Zerg too easily falls behind on, so games rarely reach that state without the Zerg already being in a losing position, economically. So the bare minimum is to give players initial access to at least three gas bases. But that still puts Zerg only on even base count with the other races, which is still a losing position, at least against Protoss. So some special mechanics also need to be applied to limit or at least delay Protoss' development (e.g. access-restricted Geysers, neutral units or Creep blocking expansions for Nexus, but not Hatcheries…), or to give Zerg specific race.specific mechanics to play around with (e.g. neutral Creep sources, neutral CCs to infest…). Needless to say, none of this is done on *Roaring Straight*, so I don's see how it is gonna be balanced at all. It is definitely possible to balance an island(ish) map for any specific match-up, and thus, theoretically, find a sweet spot where it actually works well for any match-up:
Again, I don't see how *Crying Sea* succeeds in achieving any of this, except for easy access to additional (ground) bases, but that only makes it a *very* linear and constricted land map that will then turn into island play in the later stages. So then the question is, will all races be on equal-enough footing after evenly splitting the four land bases between them to then exploit the island part with all necesary tech ready? Protoss can still easily get an advantage, taking early island bases by just dropping off a Probe, though. | ||
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Kraekkling
409 Posts
Litmus is somewhat of a wildcard to me. It looks like army movement could become rather restrained after like ~10 minutes and there's a lot of gas on the map. So either games could become somewhat stale after a while (think Neo Dark Origin) or we might see the best games ever with long and methodical battles where players compete for the central expansions. | ||
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tankgirl
387 Posts
please just no more eclipse i will be personally undertaking a Terminator 2: Judgement Day-style crusade to see that every single surviving copy of Eclipse is incinerated in a volcano | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
On June 16 2025 21:36 Freakling wrote: The point about ramps used to be true, at least to a degree, before 1.22. With the new ramps released there's a lot more raw tile material to work with now – though the new ramps are consistently so badly bugged (mostly with cliff vision due to complete disregard for proper terrain level flags on the unwalkable subtiles, but many are also too narrow to allow proper unit pathing for single-width ramps) that they aren't actually the simple "plug-in-and-play" solution they were meant to be… The fact that these exact bugs aren't fixed in most of these maps speaks to a point, that's probably more important: That many map makers aren't actually that skilled on the technical level, or at least unwilling to spend the necessary time on their maps to properly design and debug their terrain – which explains perfectly well, why Ash and Ice are the most under-used terrain types: Both have very specific downsides and requirements, to design well for to avoid these issues, which makes bringing a map to a playable state, within acceptable aesthetic constraints, more work-intensive as well as requiring some very specific knowledge about certain custom terrain blends, than any other tileset. Well.. that is indeed, a bummer. Thank You very much for explaining it so well. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4173 Posts
On June 16 2025 21:50 Freakling wrote: Ash maps looking like a barren wasteland can be an aesthtic choice of its own, though. It's not like most of these maps have sophisticated decorative concepts, or terrain mechanics constrictions, that would necessarily require any certain tileset to be used. It should also be noted, that tileset choices for Korean competitive maps have become a lot more varied since 1.22 came out:
That's interesting. Appreciate the information. | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines528 Posts
On June 15 2025 05:34 Kraekkling wrote: i really like (4) Knockout so far the thingy in front of the naturals is a small area of low ground this will affect stuff like hydra busts in pvz and sunken busts in tvz + Show Spoiler + i agree, circuit breaker is a classic map, and this little innovation will hopefully balance out the anticlimactic parts of tvz and zvp. but on the other hand, it might cause some other issues; lurker contains spaced so that goons have to shoot from low ground will be terrible to play against. only time will tell as pros develop strategies on the map | ||
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Urth
United States1249 Posts
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GTR
51430 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7954 Posts
On June 17 2025 14:44 GTR wrote: i only just realised litmus has a second gas in the main lmao Yeap, one with 1500 gas and one normal one , with 5000 gas ! | ||
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Ideas
United States8085 Posts
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goody153
44099 Posts
Cant wait for pros to play games on them | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines139 Posts
On June 17 2025 14:44 GTR wrote: i only just realised litmus has a second gas in the main lmao possible buff for protoss? will we see more DT/Dark Archon plays? | ||
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goody153
44099 Posts
On June 17 2025 14:44 GTR wrote: i only just realised litmus has a second gas in the main lmao Oh wow. The new season feels even more fun. I dont remember proscene getting 2 gas | ||
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prosatan
Romania7954 Posts
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Kraekkling
409 Posts
what the heck, I feel deceived did everyone else know? | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
On June 16 2025 05:15 ScoutWBF wrote: Does TvZ need a buffed natural sunken line? It feels like the Terran only has a very small window to even bust the Zerg and struggles winning before Defilers are out and it's a huge disadvantage from there. Terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over Zerg in general. On most normal maps, Terrans have a 55-58% win rate. It's very difficult for Zerg in the matchup. Soulkey is the only Zerg right now who's making ZvT look easy, but it's not. Second gas in the main is interesting... means Zerg gets more options in ZvT with 3 gas and taking a 3rd base means 4 gas now for a short period of time before the 2nd geyser is exhausted, so gives them timing windows. Triple gas in PvZ means more gas intensiive army comps like heavier templar/goon concepts which will be interesting. Not entirely sure how it'll impact TvP that much yet... More tanks for Terran I guess? | ||
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ThunderJunk
United States675 Posts
About time we got some anti-zerg bias in the map pool  | ||
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A.Alm
Sweden512 Posts
On June 18 2025 09:52 FlaShFTW wrote: Terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over Zerg in general. On most normal maps, Terrans have a 55-58% win rate. It's very difficult for Zerg in the matchup. Soulkey is the only Zerg right now who's making ZvT look easy, but it's not. Second gas in the main is interesting... means Zerg gets more options in ZvT with 3 gas and taking a 3rd base means 4 gas now for a short period of time before the 2nd geyser is exhausted, so gives them timing windows. Triple gas in PvZ means more gas intensiive army comps like heavier templar/goon concepts which will be interesting. Not entirely sure how it'll impact TvP that much yet... More tanks for Terran I guess? "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general" - yet the last 5 years of ASL tournaments (10 seasons) have a TvZ winrate of 50~%. The last 5 ASL's also always had atleast 2 (avg 3~) zergs in the ro8 (so not only SK). These maps are worse for zerg, not better bro. I think these maps look really cool, can't wait to try them out. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
On June 18 2025 18:43 A.Alm wrote: "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general" - yet the last 5 years of ASL tournaments (10 seasons) have a TvZ winrate of 50~%. The last 5 ASL's also always had atleast 2 (avg 3~) zergs in the ro8 (so not only SK). These maps are worse for zerg, not better bro. I think these maps look really cool, can't wait to try them out. Using ASL stats which are low sample size compared to the hundreds of games the pros play on for daily proleague and sponmatches is a very dumb argument. Eloboard clearly lays out that by and large, Zergs struggle against Terran. There are some maps where Zerg will have better times against Terran like 2p maps or Metropolis, Radeon, but they get wrecked on maps like Citadel, Retro, Vermeer, Pole Star. TvZ winrates by ASL: ASL19: 14-16. Without Soulkey: 12-9 SSL: 14-15. Without Soulkey: 11-4 ASL17: 11-15. Without Soulkey: 11-14 ASL16: 18-18. Without Soulkey: 13-11 | ||
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Lazyer
United States342 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6547 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
On June 19 2025 07:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Has any game happen on the new maps ? The usual pros i follow they are runing proleagues and Bo3 sponsored games in the last season maps still. Im fairly curious about the new Circuit Breaker. I just watched Artosis review about the map. And he said how hard it was to hold top bottom and mid bottom and im confident that wasnt the case at all for terran. In fact CB was one of the first maps to allow terran to do a 4 bases setup. Idk i feel like Terran is going to have it harder in this new version but we will see. And obviously the island map will be interesting too but i have my little idea how zerg will aproach this matchup with the amount of ground bases that there is still without the need of drops. I doubt the pros are really practicing on the maps yet with them being in pretty early stages, probably they'll start adding them to the proleague rotation when they hit 0.8 and definitely when they are in 0.9 stages. I agree, the Terran 4 base setup will be much harder on this map with another alley to defend, makes flanks much more likely and minimizes ability to completely wall with depots. The advantage is the 3rd mineral only is on high ground now instead of on low ground with the ramp right above. | ||
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tankgirl
387 Posts
On June 19 2025 07:04 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: Has any game happen on the new maps ? The usual pros i follow they are runing proleagues and Bo3 sponsored games in the last season maps still. Im fairly curious about the new Circuit Breaker. I just watched Artosis review about the map. And he said how hard it was to hold top bottom and mid bottom and im confident that wasnt the case at all for terran. In fact CB was one of the first maps to allow terran to do a 4 bases setup. Idk i feel like Terran is going to have it harder in this new version but we will see. And obviously the island map will be interesting too but i have my little idea how zerg will aproach this matchup with the amount of ground bases that there is still without the need of drops. ive been monitoring the VODs for several days so far no games, except sSak who played Pole Star 1.1 | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1678 Posts
but Litmus = hell to establish 3rd base for protoss + very hydra bustable at nat Screaming Sea = how the heck does P or T push a Z ? Z controls ONE chokepoint near bridge and there is NO way to attack Z? New circuit breaker map looks awesome but mineral only 3rd hurts Protosses when facing Z I fail to see how this map pool is in any way anti-Soulkey | ||
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TMNT
2638 Posts
ASL19 map pool is probably less "anti Soulkey" than ASL18. Shouldn't it be more "anti Soulkey" instead? When Terrans won 3 seasons in a row before Soulkey, we didn't see the maps getting progressively harder for them either, and the season Soulkey broke that Terran winning streak, the maps were good for TvZ too. And they probably always start creating those maps before knowing the champion of the previous season anyway. | ||
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Toshinou-Kyouko
Philippines139 Posts
On June 20 2025 09:08 TMNT wrote: I think the anti [insert name] is mostly bullshit narrative. Sometimes you just have 1 or 2 maps that look difficult for the champion of the last season, and people lean into that thought. Yet you look at ASL5 and see that the map pool was indeed created to hard counter flash and prevent his fourpeat. Look what happened. There was precedent, and I won't be surprised if it happens again in this map pool vs soulkey. Surprised it took them until this season and SK winning four in a row to actually start nerfing the dude. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6547 Posts
On June 20 2025 12:02 Toshinou-Kyouko wrote: Yet you look at ASL5 and see that the map pool was indeed created to hard counter flash and prevent his fourpeat. Look what happened. There was precedent, and I won't be surprised if it happens again in this map pool vs soulkey. Surprised it took them until this season and SK winning four in a row to actually start nerfing the dude. The way i see it is not only about preventing a a fourpeat but also the level he was showing was just above everyone. You could truly expect FlaSH to win any series before the games starting. I think the sentiment with Soulkey is that he is beatable. Specially online. SK doesnt dominate like FLaSh was doing at all. I remember when those Ultimate battle bo9 first started. They literally had to change the players cuz FlaSh just kept winning every series lol. Now the question is. Will you put anti ''Soulkey'' maps if FlaSh was competing in the tournament ? I usually dont agree one bit with TMNT but if you compare ASL19 pool to the ones before. You could see that by any means is harder than ASL17 or ASL18. Im just guessing and speculating but i think ASL was counting on FlaSh coming back. But Surgery happen. Anyway thats imo the reason we are not seeing extreme takes to the MP. Soulkey while winning ASLs back to back is still not as dominant outside this competition like FlaSh was. | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands803 Posts
On June 20 2025 18:38 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: The way i see it is not only about preventing a a fourpeat but also the level he was showing was just above everyone. You could truly expect FlaSH to win any series before the games starting. I think the sentiment with Soulkey is that he is beatable. Specially online. SK doesnt dominate like FLaSh was doing at all. I remember when those Ultimate battle bo9 first started. They literally had to change the players cuz FlaSh just kept winning every series lol. Now the question is. Will you put anti ''Soulkey'' maps if FlaSh was competing in the tournament ? I usually dont agree one bit with TMNT but if you compare ASL19 pool to the ones before. You could see that by any means is harder than ASL17 or ASL18. Im just guessing and speculating but i think ASL was counting on FlaSh coming back. But Surgery happen. Anyway thats imo the reason we are not seeing extreme takes to the MP. Soulkey while winning ASLs back to back is still not as dominant outside this competition like FlaSh was. Funny thing is SnOw basically took flash's spot in online dominance. SnOw and Light specifically have been blocking Soulkey's online dominance from happening. That aside the Map pool looks decent for zerg. Specifically the island map looks good. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6547 Posts
On June 20 2025 18:46 RJBTVYOUTUBE wrote: Funny thing is SnOw basically took flash's spot in online dominance. SnOw and Light specifically have been blocking Soulkey's online dominance from happening. That aside the Map pool looks decent for zerg. Specifically the island map looks good. I have to clarify something here. While i said the map doesnt look harder for zerg compared to previous seasons it is still a MP that has been using maps that are actually difficult to play in and that so far Soulkey and Hero has been consistent to play in. ASL20 is actually a harder mappool aiming specifically at Soulkey And that means zerg so is not really a decent MP for zerg at all lol common now. Now from a zerg POV the island mas specifically is going to be hard but is giving zerg the chance to no be behind from the get go. Idk if that will be enough. So we will see how progamers figure this out. Or they just ban the map entirely like they did with Death Valley. | ||
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ShowTheLights
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On June 20 2025 22:50 FlaShFTW wrote: Island maps without some form of compensation to zerg are historically bad for Zerg. Not sure how someone says it's good for Z. but its not an island map? its a easy 4 base for Z with literally ONE choke to defend. No way to sneak around map with T, no way to push any other path other than one bridge with P | ||
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RogerChillingworth
2831 Posts
Pretty stoked for this season. Wondering about the dates. If it lines up, I might be able to attend a few days live which would be super cool and a bucket item checked off. | ||
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SCRVN
65 Posts
If organizer actually wants to beat SK, they should allow 4 Zerg (include SK) go to semi-finals. Look at the map pool, ASL really did that. Screaming Sea saves Protoss, it doesn't save Zerg. When Terran is eliminated super soon, maybe before quarter-finals. ASL 20 just remain P and Z, then Z and Z, finally we need a bit luck for failure of SK. | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1541 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden512 Posts
On June 18 2025 23:53 FlaShFTW wrote: Using ASL stats which are low sample size compared to the hundreds of games the pros play on for daily proleague and sponmatches is a very dumb argument. Eloboard clearly lays out that by and large, Zergs struggle against Terran. There are some maps where Zerg will have better times against Terran like 2p maps or Metropolis, Radeon, but they get wrecked on maps like Citadel, Retro, Vermeer, Pole Star. TvZ winrates by ASL: ASL19: 14-16. Without Soulkey: 12-9 SSL: 14-15. Without Soulkey: 11-4 ASL17: 11-15. Without Soulkey: 11-14 ASL16: 18-18. Without Soulkey: 13-11 Ok then why are you listing the ASL win-rates? U rly think they dont use the 4 ASL wins in a row from Soulkey (even lower sample size than last 10 season TvZ balance) when making the new maps? | ||
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Kraekkling
409 Posts
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Lorch
Germany3677 Posts
Now Soulkey is dominating even harder than Flash was and we get this? Sure some of it is anti zerg. But they are going nowhere near as hard. Like it's not that hard to make maps that eliminate all the Zergs. Do a real island map with 1-2 geysers on the starting island. Do a map with no gas at the main or the natural. Plus with their new veto rules any tricky map is just gonna get vetoed to hell till the Ro8 anyway as seen with Death Valley last season. Maybe if he does 5 or 6 in a row we'll get a real anti zerg pool? | ||
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands803 Posts
On June 21 2025 19:08 iFU.pauline wrote: I feel that Screaming Sea is going to be a disaster for Zerg. Terran will only go mech and defend bridge until Zerg die off from starvation. The level of turtling is going to be maximum. it is a terrible map. It will maybe be morr hated than Troy lol. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
On June 22 2025 02:04 A.Alm wrote: Ok then why are you listing the ASL win-rates? U rly think they dont use the 4 ASL wins in a row from Soulkey (even lower sample size than last 10 season TvZ balance) when making the new maps? If they made maps to hurt Soulkey after 4 straight wins, why didn't they do that for last season when he had won it 3 straight times and in fact gave him new maps like Metropolis and Death Valley? | ||
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bochs
United States105 Posts
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RJBTVYOUTUBE
Netherlands803 Posts
On June 25 2025 07:15 bochs wrote: SK is a leg up from his fellow Zerg pack. It's almost impossible to make a map pool that targets SK, because if SK suffers, other Zergs would suffer even more, and there would probably be no Zergs in ro8. That's clearly not good for viewership. Yeah Soulkey is a lone exception. When Flash was dominating there were a couple other terrans who also did fairly well. Last, and Light for example. HerO does semi-well, and so did queen again after a few down years, and I expext SoMa to do well now that he is coming back on the 25th or 27th. | ||
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TMNT
2638 Posts
Suddenly Zerg looks amazing again. Soulkey being Soulkey. Hero and Queen regaining their form. Soma and Effort back. | ||
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GTR
51430 Posts
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A.Alm
Sweden512 Posts
On June 25 2025 05:05 FlaShFTW wrote: If they made maps to hurt Soulkey after 4 straight wins, why didn't they do that for last season when he had won it 3 straight times and in fact gave him new maps like Metropolis and Death Valley? Lets not get off-topic. You said they were making the maps better for ZvT because "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general", which is, in your words, a "very dumb argument", as zerg hasnt struggled in ASL for many, many years (avg 3 zergs in ro8 over the last 5 years). But w/e man, keep baiting the race wars. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10130 Posts
On June 26 2025 17:36 A.Alm wrote: Lets not get off-topic. You said they were making the maps better for ZvT because "terrans overwhelmingly have huge advantages over zerg in general", which is, in your words, a "very dumb argument", as zerg hasnt struggled in ASL for many, many years (avg 3 zergs in ro8 over the last 5 years). But w/e man, keep baiting the race wars. Zerg struggle against Terran. That's undisputed fact. If you want to keep using tiny sample sizes from ASL where Zergs get by because 1) soulkey is an auto qualifier, and 2) because they play protosses who are getting crushed by zerg as well, then sure, you be my guest to make those arguments. You're wrong, but you can make them. | ||
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