On June 10 2024 00:20 POPsNemec wrote: Hello. I am NEMEC, the map creator of Deja Vu, Illusion, and Catalyst. This is my first time greeting you here. I will briefly share my thoughts.
I understand why you are disappointed with the new maps.
While SOOP(AfreecaTV) allows us to create the maps we want, retired professional gamers in Korea do not.
They prefer simpler maps. They are currently finding it difficult to play on (Catalyst, Minstrel, BackStreet, RandomForest) as well. and are asking to reduce the number of candidate maps. To create easy maps, we inevitably end up with formats similar to existing maps.
I want to create diverse maps, but due to the limitations of the StarCraft editor, it is very difficult to find something new.
As gamers' demands increase when creating maps, freedom in design decreases. For example, starting layouts like Python or 5-8 player maps are hard to make. (This is due to issues like Mutalisk balance and rush distances.)
There are also rush distance problems, and each race's gamers have different interests, so it is regrettable that we cannot create as diversely as before.
Currently, they are boycotting the ASL 17 map, Troy. In addition to balance problems, they dislike playing on Troy because it requires a lot of micro-management.
To reduce such micro-management, I created two concept maps (Catalyst, Illusion) with less complex terrain this season, but Illusion also did not receive good reviews. It is not a balance issue (there are not many games played on it in the first place), but because it falls outside the range of maps they prefer.
I know it's boring for map makers to follow the same map blueprints because you wanna make something original/fun but there's also a balance that needs to be maintained for competitive integrity. Unique maps are great but when the map pool becomes entirely filled with them it makes it very hard for players to practice. The quality control on these maps isn't the best because everyone wants to out do each other on originality which lowers the playability of the maps (balance issues etc).
When players invest time into practicing they want to enjoy playing the game and don't wanna feel disadvantaged from the start. I think the issue in KR leagues now is that the players are so good that people think it would fun to experiment with crazy map layouts just to see how players deal with them, but imo the players probably think they're being taken advantage of.
Competitive players play in tournaments because they wanna see who's #1 skill-wise (mechanics etc), they don't really care about who the best player is at figuring out/abusing a new map (which is more about adaptability).The problem is it's much harder to make a balanced non standard map vs a balanced standard map.
BW is a game that doesn't have any added content, without new maps the game would start to feel really boring so map making is extremely important to the scene. BW players need map makers to spice the game up for them and map makers love their hobby and need players to play on their maps. There's a good symbiotic relationship but we should always think about all parties involved in order to have a healthy scene.
From my experience as a player/viewer and I also help out a few map makers, I think there's also a lot of skill required in making a great fun/standard map like say Polypoid. Figuring out how to make those type of maps can be very rewarding as well imo. Fun/non standard maps are great (when done well) but when it becomes the default thing to do it starts to become very overwhelming/demotivating for the players.
With all that being said, I know how hard and time consuming map making is. BW wouldn't be BW without great map making, your work is extremely appreciated, thanks for everything you guys do. I know map making can feel very unrewarding at times, you invest a lot of time into something that many people take for granted. When a map is done well you won't hear much from anyone.. but when it's not it feels like you hear about it from everyone;;. Many people understand how valuable you guys are even if you don't get praised and there's also people working to improve BW's infrastructure to help support you guys in the future.
Isn't map and build order and strategy adaptation not a skill though? Obviously, the game has been out for so long now that we sort of get the idea of what is "meta" at this point and maps have been designed to mitigate some race's advantages and disadvantages to arrive at a feeling of "ok this is fair for all races," But I feel like this mentality of "this is just how it is, that's the meta and this is what's balanced" also leads to creative constraints and we just end up with the same boring maps, just adjusted ever so slightly and on a different tileset. I don't want maps to get to a point where we might as well not make them anymore, and suddenly we're just recycling old maps over and over again for future ASLs.
+1 to this one, also.
Hopefully it will never come to that, although we're getting closer and closer to it..
Maps are a soul (in a sense) of professional/semi-professional BW and we should never forget that.
On June 10 2024 00:38 Rainalcar wrote: Pro players should not have that much of a say. The more successful they are, the more they want to preserve status quo.
BW is entertainment, period. If the entertainment value, abd viewership, is much higher, this justifies "non standard" maps.
I completely agree with this opinion and I've been saying this for quite some time already.
cheers
I will add, let the pros rganise a tournament themselves if they want a say. The issue is, unlike eg tennis, they don't really need ASL, but they do benefit tremendously from Afreeca. If ASL attracts crowds, their streaming will also benefit.
I suspect non standard maps draw in more crowds. Sure, terran slow pushing protoss takes good mechanics, but it is not the thing that will sell BW or help it grow. Yes, standard maps are necessary too provided they are actually balanced, which isn't necessarily shown looking at history. We need crazy, memorable games more often, and for this, experimenting is key.
Monty Hall - the map in the third batch definitely falls into the batshit crazy category. However I suspect this is the bad type of craziness (like Neo Arkanoid), not the interesting one (like 76). Expect shit, cheesy games on this map if it makes it into the pool. Like, even the core concept of the map screams RNG.
Don't really see the changes they made compared to the old version. Are they just gonna bring it back like Troy and Arkanoid?
Flash vs Bisu anyone? Love me a map like this. In a longer best of or in double elimination it adds excitement to cheer for the underdog or just see some more creativity in general.
Edit: I just noticed I was reading a page I loaded like 3 hours ago. FlaShFTW already linked the VOD. Good job, mate! ^^
I hope they add in one or two of these concept maps, but keep the other maps more standard. Even with standard maps you can have very interesting terrain designs such as Tempest. Maps dont need to have "gimmicks" or "special features" or "tricks" to them to produce really good and interesting games. More often than not the gimmick or special maps are underwhelming because of balance issues.
I know you all already know this about me - but I'm gonna say it again for good measure. I love weird maps.
ASL/SSL has the prestige needed to attract sufficiently talented gamers - they'll get a full roster of players. Even if 50% of the pros boycott it that's fine. We'll get more new players and that will stimulate growth in the scene. I genuinely don't think that will happen though - I think the pros will join when they see the tournament is going to happen with or without them because this game is their life.
I have never been more excited for a Broodwar tournament than I was when I saw all the weird maps - especially Random Forest. I know it's not perfectly symmetrical, and the top position player will have to deal with more punishing drops than the other positions. I LIKE that. Add variance. It's a good thing.
On June 10 2024 00:20 POPsNemec wrote: Hello. I am NEMEC, the map creator of Deja Vu, Illusion, and Catalyst. This is my first time greeting you here. I will briefly share my thoughts.
I understand why you are disappointed with the new maps.
While SOOP(AfreecaTV) allows us to create the maps we want, retired professional gamers in Korea do not.
They prefer simpler maps. They are currently finding it difficult to play on (Catalyst, Minstrel, BackStreet, RandomForest) as well. and are asking to reduce the number of candidate maps. To create easy maps, we inevitably end up with formats similar to existing maps.
I want to create diverse maps, but due to the limitations of the StarCraft editor, it is very difficult to find something new.
As gamers' demands increase when creating maps, freedom in design decreases. For example, starting layouts like Python or 5-8 player maps are hard to make. (This is due to issues like Mutalisk balance and rush distances.)
There are also rush distance problems, and each race's gamers have different interests, so it is regrettable that we cannot create as diversely as before.
Currently, they are boycotting the ASL 17 map, Troy. In addition to balance problems, they dislike playing on Troy because it requires a lot of micro-management.
To reduce such micro-management, I created two concept maps (Catalyst, Illusion) with less complex terrain this season, but Illusion also did not receive good reviews. It is not a balance issue (there are not many games played on it in the first place), but because it falls outside the range of maps they prefer.
I know it's boring for map makers to follow the same map blueprints because you wanna make something original/fun but there's also a balance that needs to be maintained for competitive integrity. Unique maps are great but when the map pool becomes entirely filled with them it makes it very hard for players to practice. The quality control on these maps isn't the best because everyone wants to out do each other on originality which lowers the playability of the maps (balance issues etc).
When players invest time into practicing they want to enjoy playing the game and don't wanna feel disadvantaged from the start. I think the issue in KR leagues now is that the players are so good that people think it would fun to experiment with crazy map layouts just to see how players deal with them, but imo the players probably think they're being taken advantage of.
Competitive players play in tournaments because they wanna see who's #1 skill-wise (mechanics etc), they don't really care about who the best player is at figuring out/abusing a new map (which is more about adaptability).The problem is it's much harder to make a balanced non standard map vs a balanced standard map.
BW is a game that doesn't have any added content, without new maps the game would start to feel really boring so map making is extremely important to the scene. BW players need map makers to spice the game up for them and map makers love their hobby and need players to play on their maps. There's a good symbiotic relationship but we should always think about all parties involved in order to have a healthy scene.
From my experience as a player/viewer and I also help out a few map makers, I think there's also a lot of skill required in making a great fun/standard map like say Polypoid. Figuring out how to make those type of maps can be very rewarding as well imo. Fun/non standard maps are great (when done well) but when it becomes the default thing to do it starts to become very overwhelming/demotivating for the players.
With all that being said, I know how hard and time consuming map making is. BW wouldn't be BW without great map making, your work is extremely appreciated, thanks for everything you guys do. I know map making can feel very unrewarding at times, you invest a lot of time into something that many people take for granted. When a map is done well you won't hear much from anyone.. but when it's not it feels like you hear about it from everyone;;. Many people understand how valuable you guys are even if you don't get praised and there's also people working to improve BW's infrastructure to help support you guys in the future.
Isn't map and build order and strategy adaptation not a skill though? Obviously, the game has been out for so long now that we sort of get the idea of what is "meta" at this point and maps have been designed to mitigate some race's advantages and disadvantages to arrive at a feeling of "ok this is fair for all races," But I feel like this mentality of "this is just how it is, that's the meta and this is what's balanced" also leads to creative constraints and we just end up with the same boring maps, just adjusted ever so slightly and on a different tileset. I don't want maps to get to a point where we might as well not make them anymore, and suddenly we're just recycling old maps over and over again for future ASLs.
balance is the main issue, it's much harder to make a balanced non standard map compared to a balanced standard map (but basically my main point is opportunity cost)
there aren't a lot of high quality map makers and map making is very time consuming, for every non standard map that gets made that map maker could have spent time figuring out ways to make a more creative/fun standard map (that could be the difference between having the next Polypoid made or not), and as you see from these maps (and the majority of previous ASL seasons) the general trend in map making is heading in the same direction
and yes ppl can spend their time how they want but there's also a trade off happening in terms of the quality of the final product we end up with, also as mentioned the style of maps is overwhelmingly 1 sided now
i rather have staple maps get made that are gonna get played 10-20 years down the line (which adds to BW's long term playability) instead of these 1 off maps that are only gonna get played in 1 tour and discarded, map makers are getting incentivized to make these type of maps so their maps get picked for the main tour
On June 10 2024 00:20 POPsNemec wrote: Hello. I am NEMEC, the map creator of Deja Vu, Illusion, and Catalyst. This is my first time greeting you here. I will briefly share my thoughts.
I understand why you are disappointed with the new maps.
While SOOP(AfreecaTV) allows us to create the maps we want, retired professional gamers in Korea do not.
They prefer simpler maps. They are currently finding it difficult to play on (Catalyst, Minstrel, BackStreet, RandomForest) as well. and are asking to reduce the number of candidate maps. To create easy maps, we inevitably end up with formats similar to existing maps.
I want to create diverse maps, but due to the limitations of the StarCraft editor, it is very difficult to find something new.
As gamers' demands increase when creating maps, freedom in design decreases. For example, starting layouts like Python or 5-8 player maps are hard to make. (This is due to issues like Mutalisk balance and rush distances.)
There are also rush distance problems, and each race's gamers have different interests, so it is regrettable that we cannot create as diversely as before.
Currently, they are boycotting the ASL 17 map, Troy. In addition to balance problems, they dislike playing on Troy because it requires a lot of micro-management.
To reduce such micro-management, I created two concept maps (Catalyst, Illusion) with less complex terrain this season, but Illusion also did not receive good reviews. It is not a balance issue (there are not many games played on it in the first place), but because it falls outside the range of maps they prefer.
I know it's boring for map makers to follow the same map blueprints because you wanna make something original/fun but there's also a balance that needs to be maintained for competitive integrity. Unique maps are great but when the map pool becomes entirely filled with them it makes it very hard for players to practice. The quality control on these maps isn't the best because everyone wants to out do each other on originality which lowers the playability of the maps (balance issues etc).
When players invest time into practicing they want to enjoy playing the game and don't wanna feel disadvantaged from the start. I think the issue in KR leagues now is that the players are so good that people think it would fun to experiment with crazy map layouts just to see how players deal with them, but imo the players probably think they're being taken advantage of.
Competitive players play in tournaments because they wanna see who's #1 skill-wise (mechanics etc), they don't really care about who the best player is at figuring out/abusing a new map (which is more about adaptability).The problem is it's much harder to make a balanced non standard map vs a balanced standard map.
BW is a game that doesn't have any added content, without new maps the game would start to feel really boring so map making is extremely important to the scene. BW players need map makers to spice the game up for them and map makers love their hobby and need players to play on their maps. There's a good symbiotic relationship but we should always think about all parties involved in order to have a healthy scene.
From my experience as a player/viewer and I also help out a few map makers, I think there's also a lot of skill required in making a great fun/standard map like say Polypoid. Figuring out how to make those type of maps can be very rewarding as well imo. Fun/non standard maps are great (when done well) but when it becomes the default thing to do it starts to become very overwhelming/demotivating for the players.
With all that being said, I know how hard and time consuming map making is. BW wouldn't be BW without great map making, your work is extremely appreciated, thanks for everything you guys do. I know map making can feel very unrewarding at times, you invest a lot of time into something that many people take for granted. When a map is done well you won't hear much from anyone.. but when it's not it feels like you hear about it from everyone;;. Many people understand how valuable you guys are even if you don't get praised and there's also people working to improve BW's infrastructure to help support you guys in the future.
Isn't map and build order and strategy adaptation not a skill though? Obviously, the game has been out for so long now that we sort of get the idea of what is "meta" at this point and maps have been designed to mitigate some race's advantages and disadvantages to arrive at a feeling of "ok this is fair for all races," But I feel like this mentality of "this is just how it is, that's the meta and this is what's balanced" also leads to creative constraints and we just end up with the same boring maps, just adjusted ever so slightly and on a different tileset. I don't want maps to get to a point where we might as well not make them anymore, and suddenly we're just recycling old maps over and over again for future ASLs.
balance is the main issue, it's much harder to make a balanced non standard map compared to a balanced standard map (but basically my main point is opportunity cost)
there aren't a lot of high quality map makers and map making is very time consuming, for every non standard map that gets made that map maker could have spent time figuring out ways to make a more creative/fun standard map (that could be the difference between having the next Polypoid made or not), and as you see from these maps (and the majority of previous ASL seasons) the general trend in map making is heading in the same direction
and yes ppl can spend their time how they want but there's also a trade off happening in terms of the quality of the final product we end up with, also as mentioned the style of maps is overwhelmingly 1 sided now
i rather have staple maps get made that are gonna get played 10-20 years down the line (which adds to BW's long term playability) instead of these 1 off maps that are only gonna get played in 1 tour and discarded, map makers are getting incentivized to make these type of maps so their maps get picked for the main tour
I don't disagree with any of your analysis regarding the time and energy it takes to try to come up with a balanced non standard map with unique features and designs.
But I will say that with the maps starting to move towards one direction (standard main and natural layout, close by mineral only, 3rd gas base at 3/6/9/12, medium sized center with attack paths surrounding it), the maps all feel and play almost exactly the same. We don't get to see these epic games anymore of unique battles that put players into new and difficult situations, which as I mentioned before, is its own skill that should be rewarded (think Shine's bag of builds where he would throw the other player's preparation totally out of sync, and while his own build wasn't super efficient or optimized, would be able to outplay the opponent from awkward situations).
The same can be said about Chess960 compared to standard Chess. Standard Chess is boring imo. Ultimately so much of it these days is theory and remembering openings rather than actually having intuition about playing chess, which is why 960 is so fun because you're playing with no opening preparation, it's purely off of skill and over the board technique.
Imo, we could incentivize map makers to produce more unique maps but requiring them that if they want to submit a 4 player standard map for a tournament, they also have to design a unique and creative map. This will great a larger pool of unique maps, and out of the many that will be made and submitted, I'm sure we can find and discover some that will survive and be a fun and reasonably balanced map, even if its only there for one tournament.
I've read all the opinions here, and they all make sense. Similar discussions often come up in Korea as well. On the other hand, there are comments that differ slightly from my thoughts or that you may have misunderstood, but I won't extend the conversation any further as it could become lengthy. (I am just a viewer as well.)
I translated a comment 910 left in the community where I am active. I think this information will be helpful to you as well.
" Hello.
I am Kang Kyu-Yeol from SOOP Corporation.
Many of you have sent me messages, and I am currently thinking about what maps to use for the next season.
Since ASL, I have been using maps that are highly complete and liked by users, and SSL will be no different.
Map makers will know, but because StarCraft maps need to be meticulously balanced, they often receive both criticism and praise.
I understand that becoming official maps means additional modifications and balancing issues, which can be very stressful.
However, in order to respect both users and gamers, I hope that StarCraft maintains its popularity by continuing to collaborate with map makers.
If you have any personal questions or inquiries, please feel free to email me at any time. (aslstarleague@naver.com) "
On June 10 2024 00:38 Rainalcar wrote: Pro players should not have that much of a say. The more successful they are, the more they want to preserve status quo.
BW is entertainment, period. If the entertainment value, abd viewership, is much higher, this justifies "non standard" maps.
I have to agree with this. Starcraft 2 maps have been judged mostly by the pros for the past few years, and they tend to automatically dislike anything unusual enough to force them to learn new builds. Consequently Starcraft 2 maps have only gotten more and more standardized, with the range of acceptable deviation from the standard getting constantly smaller.
EPT
![[image loading]](https://blog.kakaocdn.net/dn/cGUcqK/btsHSTY7XkI/xBePxLNF5YfXaWzjwKkcx0/img.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wJqFxQB.png)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/lVc71WV.jpeg)
![[image loading]](https://tl.net/tlpd/images/maps/271_Triathlon.jpg)
vs Action 
vs Rush 
