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Possible new maps for SSL 1? - Page 3

Forum Index > BW General
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M3t4PhYzX
Profile Joined March 2019
Poland4289 Posts
June 03 2024 19:34 GMT
#41
On June 04 2024 02:56 MeIIOw wrote:
Not impressed with most of these submissions.

Same, tbh.
Mutaller
Profile Blog Joined July 2013
United States1051 Posts
June 03 2024 20:17 GMT
#42
Minstrel is the only one that stands out to me. I like the exposed mineral lines, however isn't that extremely terran favored. Unless some of the minerals are low yield and allow units through after being mined, tanks will be very good. I like its design though.

Random forest feels like a fun version of huntress, I'm interested in playing it
"To practice isn't for you to get better now in the present. Practice will never betray you and will always come back for you in the future." -Jaedong
Kraekkling
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
749 Posts
June 03 2024 22:10 GMT
#43
The second set of maps is pretty wild. Let's see what makes it through play testing.
(*^^)(^*)
TT1
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
Canada10089 Posts
June 03 2024 22:48 GMT
#44
random forest looks like a classic blizzard map lmao
ab = tl(i) + tl(pc), the grand answer to every tl.net debate
Sonic_md
Profile Joined March 2020
Moldova278 Posts
June 04 2024 07:19 GMT
#45
On May 30 2024 06:15 GTR wrote:
has been tainted by sonic


It's so sad to read that.
Subscribe to my YT channel: https://www.youtube.com/@Sonic_md...."SC:BW it is just game, but i love this game!" (c)Sonic_md.
ThunderJunk
Profile Joined December 2015
United States741 Posts
June 04 2024 15:45 GMT
#46
The neutral siege tank on Catalyst is just to show the ramp is wide enough, right?

Like, there isn't actually a neutral siege tank at the bottom of the ramp between the main and the nat, right?
I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10567 Posts
June 04 2024 17:14 GMT
#47
On June 05 2024 00:45 ThunderJunk wrote:
The neutral siege tank on Catalyst is just to show the ramp is wide enough, right?

Like, there isn't actually a neutral siege tank at the bottom of the ramp between the main and the nat, right?

"By placing a tank (siege mode) at the entrance, play using one-search techniques such as gas rush and advance gate, which Protoss frequently uses in existing two-player maps, was suppressed to some extent. - As a result, the limited build fights that have been occurring in recent 2-player maps have been suppressed and more diverse strategies have been encouraged. ▶ Features Neutral Siege Tank (Siege Mode) - Only Zergling can pass through until the tank is removed. (Ghosts, Spidermines, and Scarabs can also pass through, but tanks are removed after the beginning, so only zerglings are described.)"

Oh wow interesting... so this is trying to discourage PvT gas steal and forward gates. ZvP: better cover the ramp because if lings run by, zealots can't go back up the ramp if you go forge fe on the low ground. ZvT: you can still low ground 8 rax and then kill the natural if zerg goes 12h but lings can freely go up and down so it still protects. 9 pool is pretty bad now since the ramp is really narrow from the neutral tank. ZvZ nothing changes basically, PvP I'd expect 12 nex and low ground gates to counter such strategy, lots of mind games. TvT same thing, probably low ground rax and 14cc style builds unless you want to also build low ground factories to add pressure but I doubt it.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
3376 Posts
June 04 2024 18:40 GMT
#48
So basically it's the anti-Protoss siege tank?

2p maps are the sole reason PvT is a somewhat balanced matchup, and that's not because of the lower number of bases. If there are no early game shenanigans from P, T would love 2p maps even more than 4p maps. Plus, P can't 12 Nexus anymore because the zealot(s) will be ~ 15 seconds late to help prevent the bunker rush.

And before anyone can think "Oh but it can stop lings runby in PvZ", lings can still pass through, which makes it actually even worse because zealots can't lol.
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10567 Posts
June 04 2024 20:56 GMT
#49
Yeah I'm not a huge fan of the idea. I think it's interesting in theory but bad in practice, and it neuters Protoss. Protoss can still 12 nex but they'd need to put a gate on the lowground to get units out. I think the map introduces too much build order RNG. If Protoss thinks Terran is going CC first, they might want to go low ground gate and pressure with zealots. But if Terran opens standard then Protoss is shit out of luck. Terran at least has the option to float buildings up and down from the high ground.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10567 Posts
June 05 2024 15:25 GMT
#50
Played a bit of Dominator yesterday, not a fan of the base layout for the top left and bottom left bases. Typical shitty mineral lines and tough to defend against muta harass as an example.

Minstrel I need more reps on but feels like a pretty interesting map.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
RJBTVYOUTUBE
Profile Joined December 2023
Netherlands1320 Posts
June 07 2024 09:13 GMT
#51
backsteet boys are back!
JDON MY SOUL!
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium7088 Posts
June 07 2024 09:25 GMT
#52
Any vods from people testing the new maps ? When will we know the final picks ? They really tried new things in the 2 players maps. Apart from Catalyst ( that is heavily inspired from Chain reaction ) Funny that Gladiator is making a comeback as a 3 player map now called Dominator.

outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
June 07 2024 16:14 GMT
#53
Wait until free mind controls those tanks and wins to show the best game of post KeSPA era. The only thing that sucks is that you can't unsiege (?) since siege mode isn't avaliable.
sunbeams are never made like me...
MeIIOw
Profile Joined April 2020
United States83 Posts
June 07 2024 16:54 GMT
#54
On June 08 2024 01:14 outscar wrote:
Wait until free mind controls those tanks and wins to show the best game of post KeSPA era. The only thing that sucks is that you can't unsiege (?) since siege mode isn't avaliable.


Did you test this?
remember that time idra was winning and he rage quit?
Kraekkling
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
749 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-06-08 01:21:22
June 07 2024 18:47 GMT
#55
While waiting for games, let's try to predict how the maps will play out. I'll rate the perceived balance and the potential for interesting games. A high rating in the excitement category means that players will be able to interact with features of the map, resulting in dynamic back-and-forth scenarios where creativity and player skill can be showcased. A low rating means that map features lead to a constrained or repetitive game flow, or frustrating game states wherein players seem to fight the map features themselves rather than their opponents.


Map ratings below.
+ Show Spoiler +
(4) Pantheon 0.8
Balance: 8
Excitement: 6
+ Show Spoiler +

One of the solid maps in the pack. Resource allocation, expansion setup and the center design closely mirror other standard macro maps. The low-to-low ramp makes a return, which I think is a good addition to the set of commonly used map features.

The expansion layout in particular makes it pretty easy to take and defend new expansions. The high amount of expansions (16) and the absence of gas at the mineral-only might make this map tend towards Z>P.

[image loading]

Link: https://910map.tistory.com/191


(4) KICK BACK 0.8
Balance: 4
Excitement: 7
+ Show Spoiler +

One of the maps I'm looking forward to the most - it's been some time since we last had the unconditional-3-expansion-setup combined with a regular open center.

This map has reduced ressources (1200//3000) on expansions other than the starting positions, which is supposed to force players to "expand earlier". However, this is typically not what is happening and players just tend to run out of ressources earlier, which is more or less severe depending on the matchup.

Balance will probably we questionable at best, but I think we're likely to see a few interesting builds and games before the optimal play has been figured out.

I'm hoping for games where e.g. Protoss might go for a defensive split map scenario due to early access to a lot of gas PvZ, but I'm afraid of ZvT games with crazy Zerg on 6 gas and 20 sunkens.



[image loading]

Link: https://910map.tistory.com/192


(4) Deja Vu 0.7
Balance: 7
Excitement: 6
+ Show Spoiler +

A standard macro map with a slightly harder to take third base compared to some other modern maps. Maps with a central highground tend to be somewhat problematic, but it's hard to say how the ring-shaped structure will play out. I assume zergs might struggle in ZvT.

[image loading]

Link: https://910map.tistory.com/193


(4) illusion 0.8
Balance: 6
Excitement: 5
+ Show Spoiler +

Generally a standard map reminiscent of many other modern 4p maps, however with a big gimmick where mineral patches have 1.2k minerals apart from a few patches with 50k each, in particular 3 in each of the mains.

As previously mentioned, I think that reduced minerals only result in players running out of minerals earlier, which, depending on the matchup, is either very severe or doesn't matter. To me it seems very unlikely that such a change will result in what players perceive as a fair.

Regarding the 50k patches I agree with others in the thread in that this change will be much less important than the reduced patches. One strange scenario which we might run into is when one player secured 3 of the 4 starting locations, thus having 9x 50k mineral patches.

It's hard to predict the effects overall, but I'd say either the 50k patches turn out to be irrelevant or we'll get a few games which showcase why this is overall a bad idea. I think it's unlikely that this feature will make a return in the future.

[image loading]

Link: https://910map.tistory.com/194


(2) Catalyst 0.7
Balance: 6
Excitement: 6
+ Show Spoiler +

I dislike this map for a few reasons but I think it could turn out one of the balanced ones in the batch.

Just in case you didn't notice - there is a random-ass neutral tank blocking the main ramps (zerglings can fit). This will be irrelevant in most situations but make some builds slightly worse.

Then we have the additional pathway from the natural to the third, blocked by 10x0 mineral patches. In some cases this means you can take a third while being otherwise contained, but most of the time it means that particular timings and all-ins become stronger. I tend to dislike this type of changes, but assuming it turns out to be a defensive rather than offensive feature, it could be fine.

Further, there are big parts of unwalkable terrain in the center which heavily constrain army movement and make it impossible to take engages in some matchups. Last, access to all expansions can be defended from a highground position.

I think overall we might end up with repetetive games, but similarly to Neo Dark Origin, it could somehow turn out to be balanced.

[image loading]
Link: https://910map.tistory.com/196


(2) Minstrel 0.8
Balance: 1
Excitement: 2
+ Show Spoiler +

Maybe the worst candidate in a long time. We were making maps like this 15 years ago and they never turned out to be playable.

First of all this is a vulture heaven for TvP - apart from the corner bases, all expansions are wayyy too open.

Then we have the gimmick expansions with mineral lines which block unit movement - they are both exposed and low on ressources, thus obviously they will be taken later in the game when there is no other option. This means that for the most part of the game, those mineral lines will block unit movement and do nothing else. While those pathways are closed, the distances on this map become too large.

I expect games with pathing problems and frustrating, long and slow army movements and a general feeling of having to fight the map.


[image loading]
Link: https://910map.tistory.com/197



(2) Back Street 0.2
Balance: 5
Excitement: 5
+ Show Spoiler +

I don't know whats on the menu, but the map maker was cooking here. This is like a midlife crisis impersonated as broodwar map. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]



The expansion layout is similar to (2) Destination with a second main entrance with a free mineral only backyard, which is otherwise guarded by the third base.

Then there is another expansion accessible via a floor gate (accessible only early and for workers) from the main, ramp blocked by 3x5k hp temples. The expansion itself and the corner mineral-onlys are blocked by neutral turrets which need to be killed first.

Last, the very center of the map can be permanently closed.

Some of the expansions have reduced resources.

Honestly I've no idea how this will play out. Maybe the assimilators in the center will turn out to be an annoying feature. I'd also like it more if the XelNaga expansions could be taken by either player, i.e. make the mineral lines not tankable from inside the main.

[image loading]
Link: https://910map.tistory.com/198


(3) Random Forest 0.8
Balance: 3
Excitement: 3
+ Show Spoiler +

A so-called concept map. It's one of those that will result in dumb games and be veto'd by almost everyone, should it somehow make it to ladder at some point. Very likely to be broken in specific matchups.

What is nice though is a new mechanic that is used for the water areas - highground water tiles are copy/pasted onto the water, which blocks direct vision. + Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


[image loading]
Link: https://910map.tistory.com/199


(3) Dominator 0.9
Balance: 6
Excitement: 4
+ Show Spoiler +

Standard macro map. The inspiration for this map (Gladiator) was not super balanced, so it'll be interesting how this will turn out. I feel like the general tightness and the defensive features might give an edge to the defensive races in each matchup.
[image loading]


(*^^)(^*)
Galacsia
Profile Joined February 2020
Chile163 Posts
June 07 2024 22:43 GMT
#56
On June 07 2024 18:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Any vods from people testing the new maps ? When will we know the final picks ? They really tried new things in the 2 players maps. Apart from Catalyst ( that is heavily inspired from Chain reaction ) Funny that Gladiator is making a comeback as a 3 player map now called Dominator.

Light vs Killer
on Pantheon

Queen vs Rush
on Random Forest
and on Minstrel
and on Kick Back

Queen vs Snow
on Pantheon
BeSt / Bisu ftw!!
Kraekkling
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
749 Posts
Last Edited: 2024-06-08 00:09:21
June 07 2024 23:07 GMT
#57
On June 08 2024 07:43 Galacsia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2024 18:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Any vods from people testing the new maps ? When will we know the final picks ? They really tried new things in the 2 players maps. Apart from Catalyst ( that is heavily inspired from Chain reaction ) Funny that Gladiator is making a comeback as a 3 player map now called Dominator.

Light vs Killer
on Pantheon

Queen vs Rush
on Random Forest
and on Minstrel
and on Kick Back

Queen vs Snow
on Pantheon


Looks like the double gas on (3) Random Forest was removed.

Sharp vs Snow
on Catalyst
on Kick Back

Dewalt vs Pylon Wall
on Kick Back
(*^^)(^*)
FlaShFTW
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States10567 Posts
June 07 2024 23:13 GMT
#58
Agree with Kraekkling's analysis of Minstrel, personally my most aesthetically pleasing map of the lot and the map that I really want to succeed. But as mentioned, the bases are all way too open which makes securing a 3rd base literally impossible in ZvT. I was thinking that you could reduce the mineral walls (down to like 32 or something) and move the bases against the main high ground instead. Gives players more of an option to try to open them up and create access points. Or just leave the mineral lines as is and reduce a couple patches to like 32. Idk, as it stands, I think the map looks really cool but doesn't play particularly well. The exposed close base is just not a good option to take meaning you're forced to default to the farther, more difficult to take 3rd.
Writer#1 KT and FlaSh Fanboy || Woo Jung Ho Never Forget || Teamliquid Political Decision Desk
TL+ Member
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium7088 Posts
June 07 2024 23:24 GMT
#59
On June 08 2024 07:43 Galacsia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 07 2024 18:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Any vods from people testing the new maps ? When will we know the final picks ? They really tried new things in the 2 players maps. Apart from Catalyst ( that is heavily inspired from Chain reaction ) Funny that Gladiator is making a comeback as a 3 player map now called Dominator.

Light vs Killer
on Pantheon

Queen vs Rush
on Random Forest
and on Minstrel
and on Kick Back

Queen vs Snow
on Pantheon

thanks you!!
TMNT
Profile Joined January 2021
3376 Posts
June 08 2024 00:50 GMT
#60
How do Terran and Protoss defend against 9 Pool on Kick Back? The entrance is too big to do any kind of sim city and you don't want Lings to run around your main early in the game especially for PvZ?
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