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On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous.
Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague
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On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague
I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series.
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On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
You really sound like a what you are talking about.... I quote "terran this, terran that..." Great insight! Very Terran indeed haha
As opposed to some Zergs, who couldn't tell why someone lost a game even if it's realy easy to explain.
On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
At least we can articulate what we hate about terran (all their upgrades that make their units superior in a real scenario)...
Lol, I already gave you example of the most cringy Zerg complain with old Sea vs Jeadong game, where the Zerg argument for JD's defeat was literaly "Sea play terran". None of the complainers took an effort to honestly review whole game, in which Sea just played smart, abusing the map advantege for T against JD, and JD falling into bad trades again and again.
On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
I'll help you tho.. I'm that kind!
I know, I know. You don't have to signal this that loud 
On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
Terrans say Lings, Mutas, Defilers, Ultras are OP
As I said, times has change. In 2009-2012 Terrans were complaining mostly about protoss units. I don't remmember a single complain about lings from T.
On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: So it's rich ANY Terran EVER would call ANY Zerg EVER delusional... When delusion is basically synonimous with Terran.
Oh, the irony. Out of two of us only a single person complained about units, when the other complained about stupid rage reactions ^^
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On May 17 2023 14:24 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series.
But this is an arbitrary assumption because it "feels right". If you actually go and count their strategy in each game I doubt you'd get that result.
Go back to my win rate table, for example, the pair Rush vs Soma has a freaking sample size of 112, There's no way in 112 games Soma didn't diversify his strategies. Plus, many of them are actually BOX series (spongames between themselves).
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On May 17 2023 15:46 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
You really sound like a what you are talking about.... I quote "terran this, terran that..." Great insight! Very Terran indeed haha As opposed to some Zergs, who couldn't tell why someone lost a game even if it's realy easy to explain. Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
At least we can articulate what we hate about terran (all their upgrades that make their units superior in a real scenario)... Lol, I already gave you example of the most cringy Zerg complain with old Sea vs Jeadong game, where the Zerg argument for JD's defeat was literaly "Sea play terran". None of the complainers took an effort to honestly review whole game, in which Sea just played smart, abusing the map advantege for T against JD, and JD falling into bad trades again and again. I know, I know. You don't have to signal this that loud Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
Terrans say Lings, Mutas, Defilers, Ultras are OP As I said, times has change. In 2009-2012 Terrans were complaining mostly about protoss units. I don't remmember a single complain about lings from T. Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: So it's rich ANY Terran EVER would call ANY Zerg EVER delusional... When delusion is basically synonimous with Terran. Oh, the irony. Out of two of us only a single person complained about units, when the other complained about stupid rage reactions ^^
You wouldn't know irony if it dropped on your head and ironed your skull...
I quote your self description "Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy."
Mike drop (on my phone cuz my other mic is not drop resistant kek)
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On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous.
These are the racial Terran statistics from the previous ASL's map pool (About two weeks old; I'm not doing the same research again for this):
Retro: TvZ 49.7%, TvP 48.5%
Dark Origin: TvZ 45.8%, TvP 43.6%
Heartbreak Ridge: TvZ 46.7%, TvP 42.4%
Nemesis: TvZ 56%, TvP 48.5%
Neo Sylphid: TvZ 59.7%, TvP 51.4%
Vermeer: TvZ 56.9%, TvP 56.5%
76: TvZ 52.9%, TvP 36.4%
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On May 16 2023 00:04 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 15 2023 03:14 vOdToasT wrote:On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight  Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments... Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed... Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE. Exhibit A: ![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CcYvfo0hV9U/maxresdefault.jpg) Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft. Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg. I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that. So kinda like Flash? We just should ignore his achievements? I've never seen a Terran NOT whine actually. And if a Zerg in CPL is whining but that is AT BEST 2000 people who read it... So drawing equivalency of the impact is just laughable. So I assume your point is every1 whines sometimes? My point is Terran whining sells the most and has the biggest impact on the foreigner game. OFC it was koreans who came up with the T word... But there are a lot of big names who are able to speak about it. And to be fair to Tastosis they are very fair while casting ASL from what I've seen. It's the personal streams...
You named Flash, so I'll name Stork. I'll play this game for as long as you will.
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On May 17 2023 21:51 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. These are the racial Terran statistics from the previous ASL's map pool (About two weeks old; I'm not doing the same research again for this): Retro: TvZ 49.7%, TvP 48.5% Dark Origin: TvZ 45.8%, TvP 43.6% Heartbreak Ridge: TvZ 46.7%, TvP 42.4% Nemesis: TvZ 56%, TvP 48.5% Neo Sylphid: TvZ 59.7%, TvP 51.4% Vermeer: TvZ 56.9%, TvP 56.5% 76: TvZ 52.9%, TvP 36.4%
I already did an even more comprehensive one here: https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28053294
This is only TvZ (updated as of today):
Polypoid: 56.3%
Vermeer: 57.7%
Eclipse: 52.5%
Sylphid: 60.1% (who let this happen?)
Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever)
Allegro: 51.4%
Ascension: 58.5%
Revolver: 54.3%
Butter: 53%
Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro)
Nemesis: 56.5%
Odyssey: 56.9%
Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh)
Monopoly: 51.9%
76: 53.3%
Neo Arkanoid: 51.6%
Retro: 50.4% (there's hope)
Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here)
Dark Orgin: 46.4%
Heartbreak Ridge: 46.9% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat T)
The "standard" maps on the above list are obviously: FS, Polypoid, Eclipse, Sylphid, Vermeer. It's almost like: the 3-4 standard maps that were used multiples time in ASL and used exclusively in qualifiers are heavily in favor of Terran. Then they add 3-4 "weird" maps which may or may not be in favor of Terran.
Literally during the last 1 2 years there are only 3 maps in favor of Z in ZvT. And at 46-47% win rate for T on those maps, it's not even a big disadvantage.
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On May 17 2023 19:29 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
You wouldn't know irony if it dropped on your head and ironed your skull...
I quote your self description "Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy."
Mike drop (on my phone cuz my other mic is not drop resistant kek)
The sad part for you is that in this case I recognized irony very well...
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On May 17 2023 17:19 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 14:24 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series. But this is an arbitrary assumption because it "feels right". If you actually go and count their strategy in each game I doubt you'd get that result.Go back to my win rate table, for example, the pair Rush vs Soma has a freaking sample size of 112, There's no way in 112 games Soma didn't diversify his strategies. Plus, many of them are actually BOX series (spongames between themselves).
No it's not arbitrary and it's not because it "feels right", that's yours. I'm trying to explain a behavior in a logic way. It's on you to disprove my claim if you think I'm wrong so it should be you the one counting. Now, on the same topic, why do you think Snow that has a ridiculous 60% winrate against Queen on the same maps on proleague goes 2-5 on ultimate battle (final count was 4-5 but last 2 games where just fillers). If proleague was a good indicator of map balance/results Snow should have mopped the floor with Queen.
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In the end what I am trying to disprove here is the: "maps are bad for zerg, you can see it because of this table" argument. If maps were bad for zerg then ASL15 results would have been a fluke inside a fluke. Maybe it's the proleague format (players can't prepare specific mu/opponents before hand), maybe zerg players are not team players or maybe they don't care as much idk.
It would be great to have your table separated by 1v1/sponsored games and series vs proleague matches, since those are 2 different formats.
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On May 18 2023 11:54 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 17:19 TMNT wrote:On May 17 2023 14:24 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series. But this is an arbitrary assumption because it "feels right". If you actually go and count their strategy in each game I doubt you'd get that result.Go back to my win rate table, for example, the pair Rush vs Soma has a freaking sample size of 112, There's no way in 112 games Soma didn't diversify his strategies. Plus, many of them are actually BOX series (spongames between themselves). No it's not arbitrary and it's not because it "feels right", that's yours. I'm trying to explain a behavior in a logic way. It's on you to disprove my claim if you think I'm wrong so it should be you the one counting. Now, on the same topic, why do you think Snow that has a ridiculous 60% winrate against Queen on the same maps on proleague goes 2-5 on ultimate battle (final count was 4-5 but last 2 games where just fillers). If proleague was a good indicator of map balance/results Snow should have mopped the floor with Queen.
You do realize that 60% means 6-4 after 10 games right? Flip one game and you have 5-5. Not exactly mopping the floor isn't it?
Also that 60% is for all games, including Ultimate Battle.
Snow once had a BO21 series vs Royal where he was up 10-2 then lost 7 in a row to 10-9 before he won the last game.
The map/race balance was deduced from a sample size in the range of hundreds to thousands, not from a single 9 game series.
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On May 18 2023 12:56 Malongo wrote:
In the end what I am trying to disprove here is the: "maps are bad for zerg, you can see it because of this table" argument. If maps were bad for zerg then ASL15 results would have been a fluke inside a fluke. Maybe it's the proleague format (players can't prepare specific mu/opponents before hand), maybe zerg players are not team players or maybe they don't care as much idk.
It would be great to have your table separated by 1v1/sponsored games and series vs proleague matches, since those are 2 different formats.
That table I made is not meant to be about maps is it? It's a form table of individuals.
For maps, you literally have win rate on a specific map, for all types of games, from all players, from the beginning of time when that map was created.
Are you saying that that 60% TvZ on Sylphid based on a thousand games doesn't mean anything because there are 5 Zergs in the Ro8 of this ASL.
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On May 18 2023 12:56 Malongo wrote:
In the end what I am trying to disprove here is the: "maps are bad for zerg, you can see it because of this table" argument. If maps were bad for zerg then ASL15 results would have been a fluke inside a fluke. Maybe it's the proleague format (players can't prepare specific mu/opponents before hand), maybe zerg players are not team players or maybe they don't care as much idk.
It would be great to have your table separated by 1v1/sponsored games and series vs proleague matches, since those are 2 different formats.
1000+ games across all top tier players is way more reliable than just few games from ASL. Like we kept saying, doing well in these matches in proleague is very important for top tier players. When they go on losing streak they are constantly in danger of losing that spot and having to give to a better player. These players do anything (going greedy builds, cheeses, standard, exploitation) to win and come ahead because this is their lifeline/gateway into 20-40k monthly income.
The truth of the matter is that zergs used to excel back when effort/larva/SK/hero/queen were all active and in pretty good mechanical shape. They relied on their insane mechanics to overcome hurdles. Zerg was, frankly, pretty OP back then so mapmakers have this "fear" of making zerg favored maps as you know zerg won asl 3x in a row lol. Now it's been roughly 2-3 years of zergs being on decline and the map frankly sucks for zergs atm. The maps exaberates the decline in mechanics for all zerg players as I mentioned before (gaps in mineral line, easy to cannon rush, nat simcity for tvz). Lot of koreans are saying how zerg's done once soma leaves to army. There really is no replacement for soma. There is no one to step up except maybe queen/soulkey but just look at soulkey's record the past few months. It's very abysmal.. Queen is also declining as well.
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On May 17 2023 21:53 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2023 00:04 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 15 2023 03:14 vOdToasT wrote:On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments... Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed... Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE. Exhibit A: Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft. Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg. I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that. So kinda like Flash? We just should ignore his achievements? I've never seen a Terran NOT whine actually. And if a Zerg in CPL is whining but that is AT BEST 2000 people who read it... So drawing equivalency of the impact is just laughable. So I assume your point is every1 whines sometimes? My point is Terran whining sells the most and has the biggest impact on the foreigner game. OFC it was koreans who came up with the T word... But there are a lot of big names who are able to speak about it. And to be fair to Tastosis they are very fair while casting ASL from what I've seen. It's the personal streams... You named Flash, so I'll name Stork. I'll play this game for as long as you will.
Stork "barely makes it in Ro8" Stork?
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On May 17 2023 22:14 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 21:51 vOdToasT wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. These are the racial Terran statistics from the previous ASL's map pool (About two weeks old; I'm not doing the same research again for this): Retro: TvZ 49.7%, TvP 48.5% Dark Origin: TvZ 45.8%, TvP 43.6% Heartbreak Ridge: TvZ 46.7%, TvP 42.4% Nemesis: TvZ 56%, TvP 48.5% Neo Sylphid: TvZ 59.7%, TvP 51.4% Vermeer: TvZ 56.9%, TvP 56.5% 76: TvZ 52.9%, TvP 36.4% I already did an even more comprehensive one here: https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28053294This is only TvZ (updated as of today): Show nested quote +Polypoid: 56.3%
Vermeer: 57.7%
Eclipse: 52.5%
Sylphid: 60.1% (who let this happen?)
Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever)
Allegro: 51.4%
Ascension: 58.5%
Revolver: 54.3%
Butter: 53%
Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro)
Nemesis: 56.5%
Odyssey: 56.9%
Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh)
Monopoly: 51.9%
76: 53.3%
Neo Arkanoid: 51.6%
Retro: 50.4% (there's hope)
Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here)
Dark Orgin: 46.4%
Heartbreak Ridge: 46.9% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat T) The "standard" maps on the above list are obviously: FS, Polypoid, Eclipse, Sylphid, Vermeer. It's almost like: the 3-4 standard maps that were used multiples time in ASL and used exclusively in qualifiers are heavily in favor of Terran. Then they add 3-4 "weird" maps which may or may not be in favor of Terran. Literally during the last 1 2 years there are only 3 maps in favor of Z in ZvT. And at 46-47% win rate for T on those maps, it's not even a big disadvantage.
The qualifier map pool was Terran favoured, but the tournament map pool was not
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On May 18 2023 20:30 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 22:14 TMNT wrote:On May 17 2023 21:51 vOdToasT wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. These are the racial Terran statistics from the previous ASL's map pool (About two weeks old; I'm not doing the same research again for this): Retro: TvZ 49.7%, TvP 48.5% Dark Origin: TvZ 45.8%, TvP 43.6% Heartbreak Ridge: TvZ 46.7%, TvP 42.4% Nemesis: TvZ 56%, TvP 48.5% Neo Sylphid: TvZ 59.7%, TvP 51.4% Vermeer: TvZ 56.9%, TvP 56.5% 76: TvZ 52.9%, TvP 36.4% I already did an even more comprehensive one here: https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28053294This is only TvZ (updated as of today): Polypoid: 56.3%
Vermeer: 57.7%
Eclipse: 52.5%
Sylphid: 60.1% (who let this happen?)
Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever)
Allegro: 51.4%
Ascension: 58.5%
Revolver: 54.3%
Butter: 53%
Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro)
Nemesis: 56.5%
Odyssey: 56.9%
Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh)
Monopoly: 51.9%
76: 53.3%
Neo Arkanoid: 51.6%
Retro: 50.4% (there's hope)
Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here)
Dark Orgin: 46.4%
Heartbreak Ridge: 46.9% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat T) The "standard" maps on the above list are obviously: FS, Polypoid, Eclipse, Sylphid, Vermeer. It's almost like: the 3-4 standard maps that were used multiples time in ASL and used exclusively in qualifiers are heavily in favor of Terran. Then they add 3-4 "weird" maps which may or may not be in favor of Terran. Literally during the last 1 2 years there are only 3 maps in favor of Z in ZvT. And at 46-47% win rate for T on those maps, it's not even a big disadvantage. The qualifier map pool was Terran favoured, but the tournament map pool was not
It certainly wasn't for TvP. It still was for TvZ. And this is the most anti Terran map pool in recent memory.
Vermeer will stay but surely they will ditch Sylphid for next season.
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I don't think Tesagi players realize the gravity of the situation here...
In all of OSL, MSL and ASL this is the FIRST TIME we have BACK TO BACK Terran only finals!!! FIRST TIME!!!! OUTRAGEOUS!!! Protoss had back to back finals in OSL 2003 Nal_Ra vs Kingdom and Nal_Ra vs Zeus from the information I could find....
Guess which race never had back to back finals of only that race???
I don't know what the fuck is wrong with the upload on tl.net but I can't seem to upload an image through this website,even tho I uploaded it just fine on imgur.com itself...
https://imgur.com/8ELHrcs
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On May 18 2023 19:20 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2023 21:53 vOdToasT wrote:On May 16 2023 00:04 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 15 2023 03:14 vOdToasT wrote:On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments... Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed... Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE. Exhibit A: Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft. Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg. I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that. So kinda like Flash? We just should ignore his achievements? I've never seen a Terran NOT whine actually. And if a Zerg in CPL is whining but that is AT BEST 2000 people who read it... So drawing equivalency of the impact is just laughable. So I assume your point is every1 whines sometimes? My point is Terran whining sells the most and has the biggest impact on the foreigner game. OFC it was koreans who came up with the T word... But there are a lot of big names who are able to speak about it. And to be fair to Tastosis they are very fair while casting ASL from what I've seen. It's the personal streams... You named Flash, so I'll name Stork. I'll play this game for as long as you will. Stork "barely makes it in Ro8" Stork?
Terrans historically have been the players that bitch the most (despite them historically having the most success). Zergs historically seem to bitch the least and if they do, it's usually bitching about Terran because anyone with a brain would savagely roast them for complaining about ZvP. Protoss players typically bitch about PvZ and do so quite often but typically don't complain about PvT (until recently it seems). Terrans just bitch about everything.
I've known a lot of great foreigners and Koreans throughout the years and every single Terran outside of literally a few (Nyoken and Assem would be two that I could think of) would bitch about absolutely everything and do these mental gymnastics in order to convince themselves that despite the best player (at almost any given time) was a Terran or that Terrans were winning more than any other race, that somehow Terran is soooooo much harder than Protoss and Zerg and the game was sooooo unfair to them. It's honestly always been that way. I don't know what it is about Terran that has this effect on people but it's undeniably a constant.
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Brood War is a really fun game. Impossible to master. It is a shame Remastered wasnt taken serious by Blizzard.They didnt make a more powerful map editor. Not 2v2 ranked and now they dont even update seasons. Game outside of Korea is pretty much dead. How I wish ESL or other tour organizers made a circuit or something similar to sc2 so players could take competitive more serious. I Still hope microsoft take the torch and do something cool tho.
Sorry for the offtopic. Is kind of nostalgic we still complain about balance xd. In starcraft the guy that play the best is the winner. There is not really other way around it.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8ELHrcs.png)
