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On May 12 2023 20:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2023 19:16 TMNT wrote:
This is the first time I hear someone complaining about nat sim city in PvZ that Zerg can only hit with 1 ling at a time.
Like, what do you even want?
And by the way, if you ling rush you're supposed to hit the gateway, not the zealot. He is not talking about Sim city. He is talking about certain places where protoss can put the zealot and lings can only fight 1 by 1. For example on Sylphid natural and the mineral only there is small gap to do this. On vermeer and Polypoid you can do this aswell.
On May 09 2023 08:45 Shinokuki wrote:
It's also the maps. Mapmakers started adding ridiculous simcity for toss/terran to simcity their nat, 1 gap wall for zealot to go in, cannona'ble naturals, and wide open choke for zergs to defend. Result? only soma performing decently.
80 IQ toss and whiny terrans need to give in and comply with possible extinction of zergs.
I'd say he is clearly talking about nats simcities.
Also how come 1 gap places for zealots are so problematic, you need micro to trade but the zealot is not going to do much there either.
On May 12 2023 20:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I totally agree that the new maps make it really easy to wall and to help canon rushing. In the past you could be really agressive vs terran with zerglings. Now every map offer almost a perfect Sim city to hold 6 lings with 1 scv 1 marine.
Sim city is not something new but atleast in the past there was a balance with the maps that you could do it as perfect as now.
Yes. Maps are designed to allow for easy defensive nats for all races. I don't see the problem.
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On May 13 2023 15:30 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2023 20:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On May 12 2023 19:16 TMNT wrote:
This is the first time I hear someone complaining about nat sim city in PvZ that Zerg can only hit with 1 ling at a time.
Like, what do you even want?
And by the way, if you ling rush you're supposed to hit the gateway, not the zealot. He is not talking about Sim city. He is talking about certain places where protoss can put the zealot and lings can only fight 1 by 1. For example on Sylphid natural and the mineral only there is small gap to do this. On vermeer and Polypoid you can do this aswell. Show nested quote +On May 09 2023 08:45 Shinokuki wrote:
It's also the maps. Mapmakers started adding ridiculous simcity for toss/terran to simcity their nat, 1 gap wall for zealot to go in, cannona'ble naturals, and wide open choke for zergs to defend. Result? only soma performing decently.
80 IQ toss and whiny terrans need to give in and comply with possible extinction of zergs. I'd say he is clearly talking about nats simcities. Also how come 1 gap places for zealots are so problematic, you need micro to trade but the zealot is not going to do much there either. Show nested quote +On May 12 2023 20:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I totally agree that the new maps make it really easy to wall and to help canon rushing. In the past you could be really agressive vs terran with zerglings. Now every map offer almost a perfect Sim city to hold 6 lings with 1 scv 1 marine.
Sim city is not something new but atleast in the past there was a balance with the maps that you could do it as perfect as now.
Yes. Maps are designed to allow for easy defensive nats for all races. I don't see the problem.
We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for. Only 1 ling can attack zlot so zerg player needs to have 3-4 lings just to be on standby for that single zlot. There is also a threat of toss moving out with extra zlots so that forces zerg player to make 6-8 more lings. This adds up at highest level and zerg can't macro well. The nat simcity applies to TvZ where terran can rely on simcity to tech up fast while defending with 2 marines. The bigger issue in PvZ, as hawk mentioned, is that the choke is TOO wide open for zergs to defend properly. That means zergs can't hit their drone timing as they have to invest in more units than they would like to, causing game to tilt heavily in favor of toss. This has been the trend/pattern for pvz this year. It's the game of who takes the upperhand in very early game and that is very favorable to toss atm.
Zergs have tried to circumvent this by going 11 hat to be able to defend 1st zlot without drone drilling that much but the threat of cannon rush is so high that they CHOOSE to still do 12 hat despite 1st zlot having high chance of disrupting drone mining. When z goes 11 hat, they become too poor when trying to defend cannon rush at nat so they go 12 hat. Zergs like soma overcome this with superior micro/mechanics but as calm pointed out, many zergs have lost their mechanics to be able to pull this off, hence why only soma has been doing well the olast 3 months.
The conclusion is that zergs are tired of these maps and want to move on to more comfortable maps like retro but the fear is that if the maps are designed more favorably to zerg, soma will be too OP as he has been adapting and making so many builds to overcome this difficulty. However only soma can do that atm, hence why there is argument for mapmaker to switch back to making maps that are good for zergs.
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On May 13 2023 14:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2023 13:13 JustTooJuicy wrote:On May 13 2023 02:03 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On May 13 2023 01:39 Freakling wrote:On May 09 2023 02:53 Highgamer wrote:
From a Terran perspective it's interesting to hear them whine talk about the downside of the larva mechanic (which is well known of course, but still as a reminder), like that your decisions on what to build now can come back to haunt you soon after, more so than with the other races who can at least cancel and switch the production. Even more than that, Zergs' lack of a unit-queue for when you're busy microing never really occured to me.
Of course here they don't point out the strengths that come with it, like the possibility of quick tech-switches and sudden mass-unit production, and that you save money and space because you don't have to build so many production buildings. Zerg macro mechanics is far more forgiving than queue-based T/P macro. As long as a Hatch isn't sitting there for a prolonged period with three larvae, the efficiency and unit count losses from the occasional macro hick-up are comparatively minimal. Your unit are just out a bit later, as opposed to just not at all if you miss a macro cycle as P or T. What's really hard is actually hitting Terran bio macro cycles consistently. Rofl. you play a lot of zerg for sure. Tell me something. Imagine you are doing a basic 3 hatcheries mutalisk vs terran and is time to make the 9 mutas. But u press the wrong key and you build drones or scourges. Totally 9 larvas on that. Tell me how forgiving is that. The most easy thing to do is click gateways or barracks to build your units.. As a zerg you need to constantly build the right units (not only units) to no loss larvas in the process. if i was as dumb as eonzerg is I would kill myself This just show very few people replying on this topic play zerg at all. On top of that you all taking my example literally. My point was to show that if you make a missclick as a zerg when building units you are getting punish for it by not having the option to make more units. While as a protoss or Terran you can actually cancel your unit and fix your mistake. When you play zerg in order to make units you need to press the number of the hatchery then the key to open the menu and then the unit. So there is just no way any other race make it harder to produce units. When you play zerg u cant let 3 larvas floating for to long or u already losing 1 larva x hatchery each time u let this happen. Something that as a protoss or Terran u dont have this issue. So not zerg macro is not more forgiving at all than other races. Im happy you are not dumb as me and we can read your amazing comments on this forum. ^_^
Knowing what to make with your larvas every second in mid/late game is one of the hardest skill you can have. Especially in TvZ. PvZ maybe a bit simpler but hitting that droning timing is very high level lol. Lot of clueless foreigenrs thinking zerg macro is just press s and then h or z. It's like face palm. I admit zerg is EASY if you're micro ape and going all in every game on ladder. When it's time to actually learn the game and macro it's the hardest race to play. Lot of korean ladder zergs are micro apes lol. Very few are actually macro style zerg because that shit is so hard to play.
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On May 13 2023 16:07 Shinokuki wrote:
We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for.
I mean, this is a very weird sentiment to have. So you have an "usual", "optimized build order" you would like to make, and I'm not supposed to interfere with it even though we're trying to kill each other?
Yeah, me too. As a Protoss I'd like to have Stargate up before Cannon too. That's how I optimize my build but how come the map makers not make the natural on high ground so I can enjoy my build order?
Plus, the zealot in the mineral gap is not gonna shoot drones from range is he? You can always wait for it to come out and surround it with the few lings you have. or you can be even cuter, do the trick where you pull the injured ling back after 1 hit and send a new one in. But I guess it takes skills.
If anything, we need more of that mineral gap because as of the current map pool, Zerg still wins >50% on most maps.
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Netherlands5129 Posts
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On May 13 2023 20:04 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2023 16:07 Shinokuki wrote:
We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for.
I mean, this is a very weird sentiment to have. So you have an "usual", "optimized build order" you would like to make, and I'm not supposed to interfere with it even though we're trying to kill each other? Yeah, me too. As a Protoss I'd like to have Stargate up before Cannon too. That's how I optimize my build but how come the map makers not make the natural on high ground so I can enjoy my build order? Plus, the zealot in the mineral gap is not gonna shoot drones from range is he? You can always wait for it to come out and surround it with the few lings you have. or you can be even cuter, do the trick where you pull the injured ling back after 1 hit and send a new one in. But I guess it takes skills. If anything, we need more of that mineral gap because as of the current map pool, Zerg still wins >50% on most maps.
I mean I'm not arguging that the gap in nat is way too OP. It's just that its a disadvantage among other disadvantages that zerg has been given purely because of how many builds have come out from zerg's side with insane mining efficiency (soma ftw). The problem is that only soma has been doing well in god tier level. Also if zerg does not have >50% in pvz why even play zerg? Zergs are getting crapped on by terran and you still want zerg to have 50% or less win rate vs toss?
Also, at the highest level every disadvantage is crucial so it's huge to these players but for players like us i'd say it doesn't matter lol and that zerg is in good hands
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On May 13 2023 23:10 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2023 20:04 TMNT wrote:On May 13 2023 16:07 Shinokuki wrote:
We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for.
I mean, this is a very weird sentiment to have. So you have an "usual", "optimized build order" you would like to make, and I'm not supposed to interfere with it even though we're trying to kill each other? Yeah, me too. As a Protoss I'd like to have Stargate up before Cannon too. That's how I optimize my build but how come the map makers not make the natural on high ground so I can enjoy my build order? Plus, the zealot in the mineral gap is not gonna shoot drones from range is he? You can always wait for it to come out and surround it with the few lings you have. or you can be even cuter, do the trick where you pull the injured ling back after 1 hit and send a new one in. But I guess it takes skills. If anything, we need more of that mineral gap because as of the current map pool, Zerg still wins >50% on most maps. I mean I'm not arguging that the gap in nat is way too OP. It's just that its a disadvantage among other disadvantages that zerg has been given purely because of how many builds have come out from zerg's side with insane mining efficiency (soma ftw). The problem is that only soma has been doing well in god tier level. Also if zerg does not have >50% in pvz why even play zerg? Zergs are getting crapped on by terran and you still want zerg to have 50% or less win rate vs toss? Also, at the highest level every disadvantage is crucial so it's huge to these players but for players like us i'd say it doesn't matter lol and that zerg is in good hands
Protoss are having less than 50% in both matchups for years and they are still playing
But I agree that map pools have been too good for Terran. They are crapping on Zergs that even a player like JYJ who is like 30% vs all the top Protoss can still win an ASL by playing Zergs only.
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On May 14 2023 01:01 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2023 23:10 Shinokuki wrote:On May 13 2023 20:04 TMNT wrote:On May 13 2023 16:07 Shinokuki wrote:
We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for.
I mean, this is a very weird sentiment to have. So you have an "usual", "optimized build order" you would like to make, and I'm not supposed to interfere with it even though we're trying to kill each other? Yeah, me too. As a Protoss I'd like to have Stargate up before Cannon too. That's how I optimize my build but how come the map makers not make the natural on high ground so I can enjoy my build order? Plus, the zealot in the mineral gap is not gonna shoot drones from range is he? You can always wait for it to come out and surround it with the few lings you have. or you can be even cuter, do the trick where you pull the injured ling back after 1 hit and send a new one in. But I guess it takes skills. If anything, we need more of that mineral gap because as of the current map pool, Zerg still wins >50% on most maps. I mean I'm not arguging that the gap in nat is way too OP. It's just that its a disadvantage among other disadvantages that zerg has been given purely because of how many builds have come out from zerg's side with insane mining efficiency (soma ftw). The problem is that only soma has been doing well in god tier level. Also if zerg does not have >50% in pvz why even play zerg? Zergs are getting crapped on by terran and you still want zerg to have 50% or less win rate vs toss? Also, at the highest level every disadvantage is crucial so it's huge to these players but for players like us i'd say it doesn't matter lol and that zerg is in good hands Protoss are having less than 50% in both matchups for years and they are still playing But I agree that map pools have been too good for Terran. They are crapping on Zergs that even a player like JYJ who is like 30% vs all the top Protoss can still win an ASL by playing Zergs only.
True true but in the past few months it seems like zerg is realllly declining
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It might change with next map pool maybe?
It's a few months in 25 years of SC's lifetime.
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On May 13 2023 07:18 XenOsky wrote:
Free Map hack
Best harrasing unit in the game
Best basic unit in the game
Best Late game unit in the game
Easiest/shortest match ups
most number of cheeses that actually work
most number of all in builds that work, some people even call 973 standard, LOL
most number of unorthodox strategies
fastest units
zergs please...
Agreed 100%.
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On May 14 2023 01:58 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2023 01:01 TMNT wrote:On May 13 2023 23:10 Shinokuki wrote:On May 13 2023 20:04 TMNT wrote:On May 13 2023 16:07 Shinokuki wrote:
We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for.
I mean, this is a very weird sentiment to have. So you have an "usual", "optimized build order" you would like to make, and I'm not supposed to interfere with it even though we're trying to kill each other? Yeah, me too. As a Protoss I'd like to have Stargate up before Cannon too. That's how I optimize my build but how come the map makers not make the natural on high ground so I can enjoy my build order? Plus, the zealot in the mineral gap is not gonna shoot drones from range is he? You can always wait for it to come out and surround it with the few lings you have. or you can be even cuter, do the trick where you pull the injured ling back after 1 hit and send a new one in. But I guess it takes skills. If anything, we need more of that mineral gap because as of the current map pool, Zerg still wins >50% on most maps. I mean I'm not arguging that the gap in nat is way too OP. It's just that its a disadvantage among other disadvantages that zerg has been given purely because of how many builds have come out from zerg's side with insane mining efficiency (soma ftw). The problem is that only soma has been doing well in god tier level. Also if zerg does not have >50% in pvz why even play zerg? Zergs are getting crapped on by terran and you still want zerg to have 50% or less win rate vs toss? Also, at the highest level every disadvantage is crucial so it's huge to these players but for players like us i'd say it doesn't matter lol and that zerg is in good hands Protoss are having less than 50% in both matchups for years and they are still playing But I agree that map pools have been too good for Terran. They are crapping on Zergs that even a player like JYJ who is like 30% vs all the top Protoss can still win an ASL by playing Zergs only. True true but in the past few months it seems like zerg is realllly declining
So you want maps to be more zerg favoured? For real?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 14 2023 08:57 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2023 01:58 Shinokuki wrote:On May 14 2023 01:01 TMNT wrote:On May 13 2023 23:10 Shinokuki wrote:On May 13 2023 20:04 TMNT wrote:On May 13 2023 16:07 Shinokuki wrote:
We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for.
I mean, this is a very weird sentiment to have. So you have an "usual", "optimized build order" you would like to make, and I'm not supposed to interfere with it even though we're trying to kill each other? Yeah, me too. As a Protoss I'd like to have Stargate up before Cannon too. That's how I optimize my build but how come the map makers not make the natural on high ground so I can enjoy my build order? Plus, the zealot in the mineral gap is not gonna shoot drones from range is he? You can always wait for it to come out and surround it with the few lings you have. or you can be even cuter, do the trick where you pull the injured ling back after 1 hit and send a new one in. But I guess it takes skills. If anything, we need more of that mineral gap because as of the current map pool, Zerg still wins >50% on most maps. I mean I'm not arguging that the gap in nat is way too OP. It's just that its a disadvantage among other disadvantages that zerg has been given purely because of how many builds have come out from zerg's side with insane mining efficiency (soma ftw). The problem is that only soma has been doing well in god tier level. Also if zerg does not have >50% in pvz why even play zerg? Zergs are getting crapped on by terran and you still want zerg to have 50% or less win rate vs toss? Also, at the highest level every disadvantage is crucial so it's huge to these players but for players like us i'd say it doesn't matter lol and that zerg is in good hands Protoss are having less than 50% in both matchups for years and they are still playing But I agree that map pools have been too good for Terran. They are crapping on Zergs that even a player like JYJ who is like 30% vs all the top Protoss can still win an ASL by playing Zergs only. True true but in the past few months it seems like zerg is realllly declining So you want maps to be more zerg favoured? For real? + Show Spoiler +
Instead of countering my point you bring up ASL and not ELOBOARD stats which consists of 1000+ games. ASL is one off event where it favors zergs who go for all in games
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On May 14 2023 09:00 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2023 08:57 Malongo wrote:On May 14 2023 01:58 Shinokuki wrote:On May 14 2023 01:01 TMNT wrote:On May 13 2023 23:10 Shinokuki wrote:On May 13 2023 20:04 TMNT wrote:On May 13 2023 16:07 Shinokuki wrote:
We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for.
I mean, this is a very weird sentiment to have. So you have an "usual", "optimized build order" you would like to make, and I'm not supposed to interfere with it even though we're trying to kill each other? Yeah, me too. As a Protoss I'd like to have Stargate up before Cannon too. That's how I optimize my build but how come the map makers not make the natural on high ground so I can enjoy my build order? Plus, the zealot in the mineral gap is not gonna shoot drones from range is he? You can always wait for it to come out and surround it with the few lings you have. or you can be even cuter, do the trick where you pull the injured ling back after 1 hit and send a new one in. But I guess it takes skills. If anything, we need more of that mineral gap because as of the current map pool, Zerg still wins >50% on most maps. I mean I'm not arguging that the gap in nat is way too OP. It's just that its a disadvantage among other disadvantages that zerg has been given purely because of how many builds have come out from zerg's side with insane mining efficiency (soma ftw). The problem is that only soma has been doing well in god tier level. Also if zerg does not have >50% in pvz why even play zerg? Zergs are getting crapped on by terran and you still want zerg to have 50% or less win rate vs toss? Also, at the highest level every disadvantage is crucial so it's huge to these players but for players like us i'd say it doesn't matter lol and that zerg is in good hands Protoss are having less than 50% in both matchups for years and they are still playing But I agree that map pools have been too good for Terran. They are crapping on Zergs that even a player like JYJ who is like 30% vs all the top Protoss can still win an ASL by playing Zergs only. True true but in the past few months it seems like zerg is realllly declining So you want maps to be more zerg favoured? For real? + Show Spoiler + Instead of countering my point you bring up ASL and not ELOBOARD stats which consists of 1000+ games. ASL is one off event where it favors zergs who go for all in games
I'm just saying it makes literally no sense. By far the most important event in pro level Broodwar and you basically want it to become a full zerg RO8. ELOBOARD is like asking for the practice games to be relevant.
Zerg may not be great in your 1000 games database for a simple reason: most of them are single games in PL format where Zergs have the tendency to play "standard" which make them predictable to avoid risk because they are playing in team format. Does that make the maps "bad" for zerg? Not by a mile. By playing the game 1000 times in a standard way zerg players compromise one the biggest advantages of their own game race, but that does not mean maps are bad for zerg at all.
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The generalized title does draw community interaction of many levels but misunderstanding the context creates misaddressed arguments.
There will be valid points applied across different groups for each argument but most of the time the effect will be varied while there will be invalid points that only applied to one but not the other group:
- any Zerg players =/= rank A,S ladder Zerg players =/= Kespa Pro Zerg players =/= ASL Ro32 Zerg players;
- ASL, Proleague/K League, Sponbang income-based Progammer streamer =/= BGH, custom map income-based Progammer streamer =/= Variety income-based ex-progammer streamer
It is helpful to be aware of the context that started this discussion and not misunderstand it as another “perpetual balance whine”:
Participants: SoulKey, Calm, ggaemo - Zerg progamers, AfreecaTV Streamer, ASL/Proleague competing players
Phenomenon: recent dip of form on Zerg progamers across the board (also reflected in PROLEAGUE RECORD, APRIL 2023 post by TMNT in Daily Proleaues Megathread).
+ Show Spoiler +On May 02 2023 08:04 TMNT wrote:PROLEAGUE RECORD, APRIL 2023![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Vf0k4tR.png) (for April, only players who played mostly in Major Proleague are included) The  Zerg players, once again, mostly hanged around the middle of the table at around 50%. This has been the case for them for a few months now. If we think about this, it kind of fits with the narrative that there are so many good Zerg players now, BUT none of them are particularly dominant (like, top 3 dominant), and that's why we haven't seen a Zerg finalist in ASL since Larva in ASL11.
Proposed causes:
- “Losing like a dumbfucks”: having high critical failure risk that one mistake can cost the game, unrecoverable.
- Require high precision and intensity mechanic performance for both micro (defending marine burst) and macro (larva).
- Degraded mechanic performance due to declining physical form (aging) that is worsening both above causes.
Possible effects (for Zerg progamers, from my perspective):
- A reduced income from participating in Proleagues.
- Unmotivated to participate in Proleagues, reduced interest in practice/study builds to keep up with other top competing players.
- Changing content orientation, at best become like Shuttle: non-commitment, no longer practicing but still participate occasionally; at worst like Sea, Britney, Rain, etc: become ex-progamer variety streamer.
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On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight  Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments...
Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't.
Times has changed...
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On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments... Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed...
Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE.
Exhibit A:
![[image loading]](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/CcYvfo0hV9U/maxresdefault.jpg)
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On May 14 2023 09:31 Malongo wrote:
I'm just saying it makes literally no sense. By far the most important event in pro level Broodwar and you basically want it to become a full zerg RO8. ELOBOARD is like asking for the practice games to be relevant.
To be fair your analogy is not correct. Eloboard is not the equivalent of practice games, they are like League games and ASLs are like Cup games.
When you have games in the number of thousands it becomes pretty significant as a measurement tool for game/map balance.
Also Proleagues have a prize of 1000$ each, which is equal to ASL Ro24 prize. I'm sure pros take it seriously. Even more serious than ASL (Soulkey says hi).
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Complaining about being unable to queue up units is really quite pathetic, because Zerg only loses production time over the long term when three larvae are stacked, and if you make units immediately after the third larva spawned, it's fine. You can wait for longer between macro cycles than the other races can, without losing anything (except in the short term).
The races have different challenges, but "being unable to queue up units" is one way in which Zerg is actually easier. Units are queued up for you, and then you just have to make two or three at a time, instead of one at a time.
I like Zerg and I like larvae, and since Zerg production is spread out, it makes sense to compensate for that with stackable production, but stackable production is still an advantage, even though Zerg macro consists of doing sick keyboard combos in the midgame.
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On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments... Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed... Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE. Exhibit A:
Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft.
Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg.
I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that.
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Since eloboard introduced the advanced search function, I really like to play with the win rate of players over a period of time. Here's a Top5 vs Top5 vs Top5 table with only games in 2023 counted. Will make a thread after the first 6 months.
The table is to be read as [Row vs Column] (for example, Snow vs Mini is 43.5% for Snow).
Yellow means the two players are pretty much 50/50. Light green (55-60%) means slightly favorite and green (>60%) is heavily favorite. Opposite for orange and red.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/PHZ9nFv.png)
I have to admit if not for Soma, Zerg is absolutely fucked.
Meanwhile, Snow looks like he's more suited to the saying "It's not TerranProtoss, it's just FlashSnow".
Light just has almost no weakness.
Oh and Bisu is still amazing in 2023.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/WBj4kvg/zerg.jpg)
