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On May 19 2023 23:19 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2023 19:20 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 17 2023 21:53 vOdToasT wrote:On May 16 2023 00:04 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 15 2023 03:14 vOdToasT wrote:On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments... Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed... Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE. Exhibit A: Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft. Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg. I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that. So kinda like Flash? We just should ignore his achievements? I've never seen a Terran NOT whine actually. And if a Zerg in CPL is whining but that is AT BEST 2000 people who read it... So drawing equivalency of the impact is just laughable. So I assume your point is every1 whines sometimes? My point is Terran whining sells the most and has the biggest impact on the foreigner game. OFC it was koreans who came up with the T word... But there are a lot of big names who are able to speak about it. And to be fair to Tastosis they are very fair while casting ASL from what I've seen. It's the personal streams... You named Flash, so I'll name Stork. I'll play this game for as long as you will. Stork "barely makes it in Ro8" Stork? Terrans historically have been the players that bitch the most (despite them historically having the most success). Zergs historically seem to bitch the least and if they do, it's usually bitching about Terran because anyone with a brain would savagely roast them for complaining about ZvP. Protoss players typically bitch about PvZ and do so quite often but typically don't complain about PvT (until recently it seems). Terrans just bitch about everything. I've known a lot of great foreigners and Koreans throughout the years and every single Terran outside of literally a few (Nyoken and Assem would be two that I could think of) would bitch about absolutely everything and do these mental gymnastics in order to convince themselves that despite the best player (at almost any given time) was a Terran or that Terrans were winning more than any other race, that somehow Terran is soooooo much harder than Protoss and Zerg and the game was sooooo unfair to them. It's honestly always been that way. I don't know what it is about Terran that has this effect on people but it's undeniably a constant.
SPEAK ON IT!!! Yeah I really haven't seen much Protoss complaints... Maybe I just ignore Protoss kek...
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On May 20 2023 00:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Brood War is a really fun game. Impossible to master. It is a shame Remastered wasnt taken serious by Blizzard.They didnt make a more powerful map editor. Not 2v2 ranked and now they dont even update seasons. Game outside of Korea is pretty much dead. How I wish ESL or other tour organizers made a circuit or something similar to sc2 so players could take competitive more serious. I Still hope microsoft take the torch and do something cool tho. Sorry for the offtopic. Is kind of nostalgic we still complain about balance xd. In starcraft the guy that play the best is the winner. There is not really other way around it.
Don't tell me when you complain about other races it has been just for lulz... You were our only voice!!!
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If anything, p is fucked. Z needs to stop whining. Most balanced race.
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On May 18 2023 14:12 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2023 11:54 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 17:19 TMNT wrote:On May 17 2023 14:24 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote: Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series. But this is an arbitrary assumption because it "feels right". If you actually go and count their strategy in each game I doubt you'd get that result.Go back to my win rate table, for example, the pair Rush vs Soma has a freaking sample size of 112, There's no way in 112 games Soma didn't diversify his strategies. Plus, many of them are actually BOX series (spongames between themselves). No it's not arbitrary and it's not because it "feels right", that's yours. I'm trying to explain a behavior in a logic way. It's on you to disprove my claim if you think I'm wrong so it should be you the one counting. Now, on the same topic, why do you think Snow that has a ridiculous 60% winrate against Queen on the same maps on proleague goes 2-5 on ultimate battle (final count was 4-5 but last 2 games where just fillers). If proleague was a good indicator of map balance/results Snow should have mopped the floor with Queen. You do realize that 60% means 6-4 after 10 games right? Flip one game and you have 5-5. Not exactly mopping the floor isn't it? Also that 60% is for all games, including Ultimate Battle. Snow once had a BO21 series vs Royal where he was up 10-2 then lost 7 in a row to 10-9 before he won the last game. The map/race balance was deduced from a sample size in the range of hundreds to thousands, not from a single 9 game series. Anyone supporting that this map pool is bad for zerg 1v1 is clueless. They might not be favored but a 6/8 doesn't happen in an adverse map pool. Proleague statistics are useless for balance, games are random and players can't prepare before hand. Sponsored matches are closer to what could be representative though.
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On May 18 2023 15:58 Shinokuki wrote:
1000+ games across all top tier players is way more reliable than just few games from ASL. Like we kept saying, doing well in these matches in proleague is very important for top tier players. When they go on losing streak they are constantly in danger of losing that spot and having to give to a better player. These players do anything (going greedy builds, cheeses, standard, exploitation) to win and come ahead because this is their lifeline/gateway into 20-40k monthly income.
The truth of the matter is that zergs used to excel back when effort/larva/SK/hero/queen were all active and in pretty good mechanical shape. They relied on their insane mechanics to overcome hurdles. Zerg was, frankly, pretty OP back then so mapmakers have this "fear" of making zerg favored maps as you know zerg won asl 3x in a row lol. Now it's been roughly 2-3 years of zergs being on decline and the map frankly sucks for zergs atm. The maps exaberates the decline in mechanics for all zerg players as I mentioned before (gaps in mineral line, easy to cannon rush, nat simcity for tvz). Lot of koreans are saying how zerg's done once soma leaves to army. There really is no replacement for soma. There is no one to step up except maybe queen/soulkey but just look at soulkey's record the past few months. It's very abysmal.. Queen is also declining as well.
Except 1000+ games were not prepared before hand and decided basically 10 minutes before they started playing. There is no Zerg decline and please stop pretending soma is the greatest player to ever live because he is not. Proleague matches are non representative of balance 1v1.
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On May 20 2023 00:52 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2023 23:19 G5 wrote:On May 18 2023 19:20 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 17 2023 21:53 vOdToasT wrote:On May 16 2023 00:04 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 15 2023 03:14 vOdToasT wrote:On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments... Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed... Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE. Exhibit A: Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft. Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg. I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that. So kinda like Flash? We just should ignore his achievements? I've never seen a Terran NOT whine actually. And if a Zerg in CPL is whining but that is AT BEST 2000 people who read it... So drawing equivalency of the impact is just laughable. So I assume your point is every1 whines sometimes? My point is Terran whining sells the most and has the biggest impact on the foreigner game. OFC it was koreans who came up with the T word... But there are a lot of big names who are able to speak about it. And to be fair to Tastosis they are very fair while casting ASL from what I've seen. It's the personal streams... You named Flash, so I'll name Stork. I'll play this game for as long as you will. Stork "barely makes it in Ro8" Stork? Terrans historically have been the players that bitch the most (despite them historically having the most success). Zergs historically seem to bitch the least and if they do, it's usually bitching about Terran because anyone with a brain would savagely roast them for complaining about ZvP. Protoss players typically bitch about PvZ and do so quite often but typically don't complain about PvT (until recently it seems). Terrans just bitch about everything. I've known a lot of great foreigners and Koreans throughout the years and every single Terran outside of literally a few (Nyoken and Assem would be two that I could think of) would bitch about absolutely everything and do these mental gymnastics in order to convince themselves that despite the best player (at almost any given time) was a Terran or that Terrans were winning more than any other race, that somehow Terran is soooooo much harder than Protoss and Zerg and the game was sooooo unfair to them. It's honestly always been that way. I don't know what it is about Terran that has this effect on people but it's undeniably a constant. SPEAK ON IT!!! Yeah I really haven't seen much Protoss complaints... Maybe I just ignore Protoss kek... Protoss never really had a community leader of balance whining and raging on stream like Artosis, Avilo, Idra, or qxc.
Also, back before Starcraft 2, "Protoss OP" and "Protoss easy" were just part of the the BW community consciousness. It was just normal and expected for people to shit on Protoss players for being skilless 1a2a3a monkeys who simply roll their face on their keyboard and win. Speaking up to say "Protoss has been underperforming for a while now, maybe the race is a little weak" was a pretty good way to make a lot of people very hostile to you.
As somebody who used to play Protoss on ICCup, I have "fond" memories of Avilo crashing PvZ advice threads to explain to us poor, low IQ Protoss players that every Protoss player, including the best Korean pros, were all idiots and playing the matchup wrong. To someone of his staggering intellect, it was easily obvious that we should have been opening 2 gate (in main) Dragoons against Zerg, because Dragoons are OP.
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On May 20 2023 11:40 Malongo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2023 14:12 TMNT wrote:On May 18 2023 11:54 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 17:19 TMNT wrote:On May 17 2023 14:24 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote: Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series. But this is an arbitrary assumption because it "feels right". If you actually go and count their strategy in each game I doubt you'd get that result.Go back to my win rate table, for example, the pair Rush vs Soma has a freaking sample size of 112, There's no way in 112 games Soma didn't diversify his strategies. Plus, many of them are actually BOX series (spongames between themselves). No it's not arbitrary and it's not because it "feels right", that's yours. I'm trying to explain a behavior in a logic way. It's on you to disprove my claim if you think I'm wrong so it should be you the one counting. Now, on the same topic, why do you think Snow that has a ridiculous 60% winrate against Queen on the same maps on proleague goes 2-5 on ultimate battle (final count was 4-5 but last 2 games where just fillers). If proleague was a good indicator of map balance/results Snow should have mopped the floor with Queen. You do realize that 60% means 6-4 after 10 games right? Flip one game and you have 5-5. Not exactly mopping the floor isn't it? Also that 60% is for all games, including Ultimate Battle. Snow once had a BO21 series vs Royal where he was up 10-2 then lost 7 in a row to 10-9 before he won the last game. The map/race balance was deduced from a sample size in the range of hundreds to thousands, not from a single 9 game series. Anyone supporting that this map pool is bad for zerg 1v1 is clueless. They might not be favored but a 6/8 doesn't happen in an adverse map pool. Proleague statistics are useless for balance, games are random and players can't prepare before hand. Sponsored matches are closer to what could be representative though. I'm not supporting that this (ASL15) map pool is bad for Zerg per se. It's still good for ZvP.
I'm more of the opinion that maps in general in the modern era have been too good for Terran. That means they are too good for TvZ, and slightly good for TvP. As for Zerg, maps are too good for ZvP. Maps just suck for Protoss but hey, who cares because Protoss players don't need to practice?
But I'm more disturbed by the way you dismiss the importance of online games (proleagues, spongames, KCM etc.) in favor of a few ASL games. Your reasoning is they play more standard in online games so it doesn't reflect the race power of Zerg. Well, shouldn't playing standard be more representative of map balance rather than a cheese build? Are you saying Hero's 4 Pool on Nemesis in ASL says more about that map balance than hundred of other games they already played online? Secondly, Terran and Protoss can do abusive builds as well, so it balances out. See JYJ's 1 base Wraith Marine almost all-in vs Soulkey this ASL, or Mini's 2 Gate opening vs Queen a few seasons back.
You must be the only person on the internet who dismisses proleague games as useless like that. Koreans didn't create eloboard and record those stats for nothing. Progamers themselves value it highly and use them for map balance discussion all the time.
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On May 20 2023 16:07 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 11:40 Malongo wrote:On May 18 2023 14:12 TMNT wrote:On May 18 2023 11:54 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 17:19 TMNT wrote:On May 17 2023 14:24 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote: Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series. But this is an arbitrary assumption because it "feels right". If you actually go and count their strategy in each game I doubt you'd get that result.Go back to my win rate table, for example, the pair Rush vs Soma has a freaking sample size of 112, There's no way in 112 games Soma didn't diversify his strategies. Plus, many of them are actually BOX series (spongames between themselves). No it's not arbitrary and it's not because it "feels right", that's yours. I'm trying to explain a behavior in a logic way. It's on you to disprove my claim if you think I'm wrong so it should be you the one counting. Now, on the same topic, why do you think Snow that has a ridiculous 60% winrate against Queen on the same maps on proleague goes 2-5 on ultimate battle (final count was 4-5 but last 2 games where just fillers). If proleague was a good indicator of map balance/results Snow should have mopped the floor with Queen. You do realize that 60% means 6-4 after 10 games right? Flip one game and you have 5-5. Not exactly mopping the floor isn't it? Also that 60% is for all games, including Ultimate Battle. Snow once had a BO21 series vs Royal where he was up 10-2 then lost 7 in a row to 10-9 before he won the last game. The map/race balance was deduced from a sample size in the range of hundreds to thousands, not from a single 9 game series. Anyone supporting that this map pool is bad for zerg 1v1 is clueless. They might not be favored but a 6/8 doesn't happen in an adverse map pool. Proleague statistics are useless for balance, games are random and players can't prepare before hand. Sponsored matches are closer to what could be representative though. I'm not supporting that this (ASL15) map pool is bad for Zerg per se. It's still good for ZvP. I'm more of the opinion that maps in general in the modern era have been too good for Terran. That means they are too good for TvZ, and slightly good for TvP. As for Zerg, maps are too good for ZvP. Maps just suck for Protoss but hey, who cares because Protoss players don't need to practice? But I'm more disturbed by the way you dismiss the importance of online games (proleagues, spongames, KCM etc.) in favor of a few ASL games. Your reasoning is they play more standard in online games so it doesn't reflect the race power of Zerg. Well, shouldn't playing standard be more representative of map balance rather than a cheese build? Are you saying Hero's 4 Pool on Nemesis in ASL says more about that map balance than hundred of other games they already played online? Secondly, Terran and Protoss can do abusive builds as well, so it balances out. See JYJ's 1 base Wraith Marine almost all-in vs Soulkey this ASL, or Mini's 2 Gate opening vs Queen a few seasons back. You must be the only person on the internet who dismisses proleague games as useless like that. Koreans didn't create eloboard and record those stats for nothing. Progamers themselves value it highly and use them for map balance discussion all the time.
FYI, He's 1600 mmr. Pretty much clueless. No need to argue with people like him lol. It's like arguing with people on why smoking is actually bad!
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On May 20 2023 16:07 TMNT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 11:40 Malongo wrote:On May 18 2023 14:12 TMNT wrote:On May 18 2023 11:54 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 17:19 TMNT wrote:On May 17 2023 14:24 Malongo wrote:On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote: Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.
They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous. Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series. But this is an arbitrary assumption because it "feels right". If you actually go and count their strategy in each game I doubt you'd get that result.Go back to my win rate table, for example, the pair Rush vs Soma has a freaking sample size of 112, There's no way in 112 games Soma didn't diversify his strategies. Plus, many of them are actually BOX series (spongames between themselves). No it's not arbitrary and it's not because it "feels right", that's yours. I'm trying to explain a behavior in a logic way. It's on you to disprove my claim if you think I'm wrong so it should be you the one counting. Now, on the same topic, why do you think Snow that has a ridiculous 60% winrate against Queen on the same maps on proleague goes 2-5 on ultimate battle (final count was 4-5 but last 2 games where just fillers). If proleague was a good indicator of map balance/results Snow should have mopped the floor with Queen. You do realize that 60% means 6-4 after 10 games right? Flip one game and you have 5-5. Not exactly mopping the floor isn't it? Also that 60% is for all games, including Ultimate Battle. Snow once had a BO21 series vs Royal where he was up 10-2 then lost 7 in a row to 10-9 before he won the last game. The map/race balance was deduced from a sample size in the range of hundreds to thousands, not from a single 9 game series. Anyone supporting that this map pool is bad for zerg 1v1 is clueless. They might not be favored but a 6/8 doesn't happen in an adverse map pool. Proleague statistics are useless for balance, games are random and players can't prepare before hand. Sponsored matches are closer to what could be representative though. I'm not supporting that this (ASL15) map pool is bad for Zerg per se. It's still good for ZvP. I'm more of the opinion that maps in general in the modern era have been too good for Terran. That means they are too good for TvZ, and slightly good for TvP. As for Zerg, maps are too good for ZvP. Maps just suck for Protoss but hey, who cares because Protoss players don't need to practice? But I'm more disturbed by the way you dismiss the importance of online games (proleagues, spongames, KCM etc.) in favor of a few ASL games. Your reasoning is they play more standard in online games so it doesn't reflect the race power of Zerg. Well, shouldn't playing standard be more representative of map balance rather than a cheese build? Are you saying Hero's 4 Pool on Nemesis in ASL says more about that map balance than hundred of other games they already played online? Secondly, Terran and Protoss can do abusive builds as well, so it balances out. See JYJ's 1 base Wraith Marine almost all-in vs Soulkey this ASL, or Mini's 2 Gate opening vs Queen a few seasons back. You must be the only person on the internet who dismisses proleague games as useless like that. Koreans didn't create eloboard and record those stats for nothing. Progamers themselves value it highly and use them for map balance discussion all the time. I don't dismiss spongames. But proleague games are just a different kind of game compared to league games. Shinokuki and you keep supporting the idea that zerg players are fading down (like the rant on the video) and they need better maps because the statistics show a worse winrate against both P and T. What I say is that statistic is only valid for proleague and not representative of 1v1 or series because zerg players did a lot better in asl. It's not about a few games vs many games but about a different setup. I bet if you tally the same statistics with only sponsored games the winrate for zerg gets a lot better.
also @shinokuki what an idiot, by the logic of dismissing someone for being x mmr then only pros would write. Don't be an idiot you are not a pro either, there is always someone better unless you are Flash.
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On May 20 2023 15:02 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 00:52 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 19 2023 23:19 G5 wrote:On May 18 2023 19:20 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 17 2023 21:53 vOdToasT wrote:On May 16 2023 00:04 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 15 2023 03:14 vOdToasT wrote:On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments... Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed... Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE. Exhibit A: Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft. Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg. I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that. So kinda like Flash? We just should ignore his achievements? I've never seen a Terran NOT whine actually. And if a Zerg in CPL is whining but that is AT BEST 2000 people who read it... So drawing equivalency of the impact is just laughable. So I assume your point is every1 whines sometimes? My point is Terran whining sells the most and has the biggest impact on the foreigner game. OFC it was koreans who came up with the T word... But there are a lot of big names who are able to speak about it. And to be fair to Tastosis they are very fair while casting ASL from what I've seen. It's the personal streams... You named Flash, so I'll name Stork. I'll play this game for as long as you will. Stork "barely makes it in Ro8" Stork? Terrans historically have been the players that bitch the most (despite them historically having the most success). Zergs historically seem to bitch the least and if they do, it's usually bitching about Terran because anyone with a brain would savagely roast them for complaining about ZvP. Protoss players typically bitch about PvZ and do so quite often but typically don't complain about PvT (until recently it seems). Terrans just bitch about everything. I've known a lot of great foreigners and Koreans throughout the years and every single Terran outside of literally a few (Nyoken and Assem would be two that I could think of) would bitch about absolutely everything and do these mental gymnastics in order to convince themselves that despite the best player (at almost any given time) was a Terran or that Terrans were winning more than any other race, that somehow Terran is soooooo much harder than Protoss and Zerg and the game was sooooo unfair to them. It's honestly always been that way. I don't know what it is about Terran that has this effect on people but it's undeniably a constant. SPEAK ON IT!!! Yeah I really haven't seen much Protoss complaints... Maybe I just ignore Protoss kek... Protoss never really had a community leader of balance whining and raging on stream like Artosis, Avilo, Idra, or qxc. Also, back before Starcraft 2, "Protoss OP" and "Protoss easy" were just part of the the BW community consciousness. It was just normal and expected for people to shit on Protoss players for being skilless 1a2a3a monkeys who simply roll their face on their keyboard and win. Speaking up to say "Protoss has been underperforming for a while now, maybe the race is a little weak" was a pretty good way to make a lot of people very hostile to you. As somebody who used to play Protoss on ICCup, I have "fond" memories of Avilo crashing PvZ advice threads to explain to us poor, low IQ Protoss players that every Protoss player, including the best Korean pros, were all idiots and playing the matchup wrong. To someone of his staggering intellect, it was easily obvious that we should have been opening 2 gate (in main) Dragoons against Zerg, because Dragoons are OP.
I don't think we should count SC2 ppl if they became most famous from SC2... Maybe they were big voices in ICCUP but IDK the numbers... I was late to ICCUP so I heard about Avilo just recently and nobody wants him as they spokes person kek... I don't see a liquipedia page on him or qxc for that matter in the Brood War section. Idra has one. And they all have sc2 page as well.
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nothing worse than pvz imo. you've got ling all-ins, hydra all-ins and ogre zerg gamer on top of the standard hydra doing infinite damage nonsense. then there's lurkers and all the troubles with spores and so on.
tbh i don't see how playing a 12 minute pvt and then doing some recalls (when you don't lose all your probes to vultures) begins to equate with the nonsense of 973 busts. the game is literally over before you can get a corsair to the enemy base. the general whining of terran players shows they either have no sense of how difficult it is to deal with zerg early game or that they just don't comprehend protoss.
granted tvz still looks like an annihilation and zvz kinda sux but ya i don't mind listening to zerg players whine. imo t > z > p is the overall hash of the game taking all the 3 matchups into consideration.
but ya i'll never really sympathize with terrans who can't deal with arbiters or something when i compare the scenario to dealing with 973 and ling all-ins, ogre zerg gamer etc. i can kinda sympathize with z who don't like tvz but on the other hand it looks like a truly masterful zerg could wipe the floor on 4-player maps. once u get that ultra defiler deal ur rolling. it's just a matter of the rather difficult process of getting there.
edit: tbh i think tvp still looks easier than zvt cuz you're dealing with the same kind of late game superiority in both cases but zvt definitely looks more difficult to get there
edit2: really i think most terran players haven't put in much time as protoss. if they had any concept of how easy it is to roll a 200/200 death ball with its trash armor shield upgrades then they wouldn't complain so much. 200/200 3-2 terran is just so superior and you can EMP for like 2000 damage while denying stasis and so on. have these terran really tried to remax a gateway man army off 20 gates from 2 mains running thru minefields with no obs and worrying about slow no-energy templars and arbiters? they just wanna complain about easy wins but they're not taking charge of the game with mines and probe snipes. foreign terran just let protoss walk all over them and it shows that they don't off-race enough.
the mentality that you play 1% of your games with protoss and are still 200 points higher than your terran main account shows that you don't want to win or always take the path of greatest resistance. just playing terran because it's hard doesn't make sense.
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On May 20 2023 20:38 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 15:02 Kyadytim wrote:On May 20 2023 00:52 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 19 2023 23:19 G5 wrote:On May 18 2023 19:20 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 17 2023 21:53 vOdToasT wrote:On May 16 2023 00:04 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 15 2023 03:14 vOdToasT wrote:On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote: [quote]
Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't. Times has changed... Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE. Exhibit A: Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft. Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg. I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that. So kinda like Flash? We just should ignore his achievements? I've never seen a Terran NOT whine actually. And if a Zerg in CPL is whining but that is AT BEST 2000 people who read it... So drawing equivalency of the impact is just laughable. So I assume your point is every1 whines sometimes? My point is Terran whining sells the most and has the biggest impact on the foreigner game. OFC it was koreans who came up with the T word... But there are a lot of big names who are able to speak about it. And to be fair to Tastosis they are very fair while casting ASL from what I've seen. It's the personal streams... You named Flash, so I'll name Stork. I'll play this game for as long as you will. Stork "barely makes it in Ro8" Stork? Terrans historically have been the players that bitch the most (despite them historically having the most success). Zergs historically seem to bitch the least and if they do, it's usually bitching about Terran because anyone with a brain would savagely roast them for complaining about ZvP. Protoss players typically bitch about PvZ and do so quite often but typically don't complain about PvT (until recently it seems). Terrans just bitch about everything. I've known a lot of great foreigners and Koreans throughout the years and every single Terran outside of literally a few (Nyoken and Assem would be two that I could think of) would bitch about absolutely everything and do these mental gymnastics in order to convince themselves that despite the best player (at almost any given time) was a Terran or that Terrans were winning more than any other race, that somehow Terran is soooooo much harder than Protoss and Zerg and the game was sooooo unfair to them. It's honestly always been that way. I don't know what it is about Terran that has this effect on people but it's undeniably a constant. SPEAK ON IT!!! Yeah I really haven't seen much Protoss complaints... Maybe I just ignore Protoss kek... Protoss never really had a community leader of balance whining and raging on stream like Artosis, Avilo, Idra, or qxc. Also, back before Starcraft 2, "Protoss OP" and "Protoss easy" were just part of the the BW community consciousness. It was just normal and expected for people to shit on Protoss players for being skilless 1a2a3a monkeys who simply roll their face on their keyboard and win. Speaking up to say "Protoss has been underperforming for a while now, maybe the race is a little weak" was a pretty good way to make a lot of people very hostile to you. As somebody who used to play Protoss on ICCup, I have "fond" memories of Avilo crashing PvZ advice threads to explain to us poor, low IQ Protoss players that every Protoss player, including the best Korean pros, were all idiots and playing the matchup wrong. To someone of his staggering intellect, it was easily obvious that we should have been opening 2 gate (in main) Dragoons against Zerg, because Dragoons are OP. I don't think we should count SC2 ppl if they became most famous from SC2... Maybe they were big voices in ICCUP but IDK the numbers... I was late to ICCUP so I heard about Avilo just recently and nobody wants him as they spokes person kek... I don't see a liquipedia page on him or qxc for that matter in the Brood War section. Idra has one. And they all have sc2 page as well. Hmm. qxc was maybe only big in SC2. I don't remember him that well. Avilo was a big streamer (just because he wasn't a successful player doesn't mean he wasn't a successful streamer) prior to SC2, although he really took off after SC2 started. The scandals that made people want nothing to do with him came much later.
Anyway, I didn't say that any of those people were good, I said they were community leaders in balance whining. They had enough people following them and parroting their arguments that when they complained about something, complaints about that thing went up in the broader community.
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On May 20 2023 21:41 KrillinFromwales wrote: nothing worse than pvz imo. you've got ling all-ins, hydra all-ins and ogre zerg gamer on top of the standard hydra doing infinite damage nonsense. then there's lurkers and all the troubles with spores and so on.
tbh i don't see how playing a 12 minute pvt and then doing some recalls (when you don't lose all your probes to vultures) begins to equate with the nonsense of 973 busts. the game is literally over before you can get a corsair to the enemy base. the general whining of terran players shows they either have no sense of how difficult it is to deal with zerg early game or that they just don't comprehend protoss.
granted tvz still looks like an annihilation and zvz kinda sux but ya i don't mind listening to zerg players whine. imo t > z > p is the overall hash of the game taking all the 3 matchups into consideration.
but ya i'll never really sympathize with terrans who can't deal with arbiters or something when i compare the scenario to dealing with 973 and ling all-ins, ogre zerg gamer etc. i can kinda sympathize with z who don't like tvz but on the other hand it looks like a truly masterful zerg could wipe the floor on 4-player maps. once u get that ultra defiler deal ur rolling. it's just a matter of the rather difficult process of getting there.
edit: tbh i think tvp still looks easier than zvt cuz you're dealing with the same kind of late game superiority in both cases but zvt definitely looks more difficult to get there
edit2: really i think most terran players haven't put in much time as protoss. if they had any concept of how easy it is to roll a 200/200 death ball with its trash armor shield upgrades then they wouldn't complain so much. 200/200 3-2 terran is just so superior and you can EMP for like 2000 damage while denying stasis and so on. have these terran really tried to remax a gateway man army off 20 gates from 2 mains running thru minefields with no obs and worrying about slow no-energy templars and arbiters? they just wanna complain about easy wins but they're not taking charge of the game with mines and probe snipes. foreign terran just let protoss walk all over them and it shows that they don't off-race enough.
the mentality that you play 1% of your games with protoss and are still 200 points higher than your terran main account shows that you don't want to win or always take the path of greatest resistance. just playing terran because it's hard doesn't make sense.
Try to get to S rank with every race (or whatever your highest rank was), and your perspective will expand. Also, you can't say that any race is the strongest in the game overall, because we know that racial winrates differ by map, and that every matchup can be favoured to either side depending on the map. What you can say is that in the metagame (the maps that people are playing on), one side is favoured.
For example:
Eclipse is balanced in every matchup, except it's slightly Zerg favoured in ZvP. Blue Storm on the other hand was Protoss favoured in PvZ.
Vermeer is Terran favoured in both matchups.
Retro is balanced in both Terran matchups.
Dark Origin is slightly disfavoured for Terran in both matchups.
Heartbreak Ridge is Protoss favoured in PvT.
Pick any race and either of its matchups, and I can give you a map that people actually played on (no meme maps that were immediately abandoned due to imbalance like Central Plains for Protoss or Battle Royale for Zerg), that favoured your chosen race. I can also give you a map that didn't favour either race for that matchup.
It must be mentioned that on the same map, statistics can change from year to year. Fighting Spirit was almost 60% TvP at one point, but now it's balanced in every matchup except for a slight Zerg advantage in ZvP.
From one year to the next, on Circuit Breakers, Terran went from winning one matchup almost 60% and having the other at 50%, to those matchups changing place. The even matchup became favoured just as much, and the favoured matchup became even.
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On May 22 2023 09:29 vOdToasT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2023 21:41 KrillinFromwales wrote: nothing worse than pvz imo. you've got ling all-ins, hydra all-ins and ogre zerg gamer on top of the standard hydra doing infinite damage nonsense. then there's lurkers and all the troubles with spores and so on.
tbh i don't see how playing a 12 minute pvt and then doing some recalls (when you don't lose all your probes to vultures) begins to equate with the nonsense of 973 busts. the game is literally over before you can get a corsair to the enemy base. the general whining of terran players shows they either have no sense of how difficult it is to deal with zerg early game or that they just don't comprehend protoss.
granted tvz still looks like an annihilation and zvz kinda sux but ya i don't mind listening to zerg players whine. imo t > z > p is the overall hash of the game taking all the 3 matchups into consideration.
but ya i'll never really sympathize with terrans who can't deal with arbiters or something when i compare the scenario to dealing with 973 and ling all-ins, ogre zerg gamer etc. i can kinda sympathize with z who don't like tvz but on the other hand it looks like a truly masterful zerg could wipe the floor on 4-player maps. once u get that ultra defiler deal ur rolling. it's just a matter of the rather difficult process of getting there.
edit: tbh i think tvp still looks easier than zvt cuz you're dealing with the same kind of late game superiority in both cases but zvt definitely looks more difficult to get there
edit2: really i think most terran players haven't put in much time as protoss. if they had any concept of how easy it is to roll a 200/200 death ball with its trash armor shield upgrades then they wouldn't complain so much. 200/200 3-2 terran is just so superior and you can EMP for like 2000 damage while denying stasis and so on. have these terran really tried to remax a gateway man army off 20 gates from 2 mains running thru minefields with no obs and worrying about slow no-energy templars and arbiters? they just wanna complain about easy wins but they're not taking charge of the game with mines and probe snipes. foreign terran just let protoss walk all over them and it shows that they don't off-race enough.
the mentality that you play 1% of your games with protoss and are still 200 points higher than your terran main account shows that you don't want to win or always take the path of greatest resistance. just playing terran because it's hard doesn't make sense. Try to get to S rank with every race (or whatever your highest rank was), and your perspective will expand. Also, you can't say that any race is the strongest in the game overall, because we know that racial winrates differ by map, and that every matchup can be favoured to either side depending on the map. What you can say is that in the metagame (the maps that people are playing on), one side is favoured. For example: Eclipse is balanced in every matchup, except it's slightly Zerg favoured in ZvP. Blue Storm on the other hand was Protoss favoured in PvZ. Vermeer is Terran favoured in both matchups. Retro is balanced in both Terran matchups. Dark Origin is slightly disfavoured for Terran in both matchups. Heartbreak Ridge is Protoss favoured in PvT. Pick any race and either of its matchups, and I can give you a map that people actually played on (no meme maps that were immediately abandoned due to imbalance like Central Plains for Protoss or Battle Royale for Zerg), that favoured your chosen race. I can also give you a map that didn't favour either race for that matchup. It must be mentioned that on the same map, statistics can change from year to year. Fighting Spirit was almost 60% TvP at one point, but now it's balanced in every matchup except for a slight Zerg advantage in ZvP. From one year to the next, on Circuit Breakers, Terran went from winning one matchup almost 60% and having the other at 50%, to those matchups changing place. The even matchup became favoured just as much, and the favoured matchup became even.
I agree. But it makes me wonder why are Pros saying things like Zerg is doomed then? Is it for memes? To appease the fans? It is more popular with some ppl to say other races are imbalanced instead of telling ppl to git gud kek. Maybe what they are really saying is they want Afreeca to ask them what maps should be played on? I don't know how that process works.
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The video itself is tongue in cheek. I'm surprised many took it too seriously.
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On May 22 2023 16:37 TMNT wrote: The video itself is tongue in cheek. I'm surprised many took it too seriously.
I prefer tongue in mouth personally... I think if next ASL we get another TvT finals it won't seem as funny...
Just saw Action win with 3HH vs 7 cannons and 2 reavers in natural. So at least we still got P covered kek. Jaedong right now playing Fastest. Larva playing Terran... :D
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Nelson Mandela: “Fools multiply when wise men are silent.” Well, not true in bw
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On May 22 2023 19:04 sas.Sziky wrote:Nelson Mandela: “Fools multiply when wise men are silent.” Well, not true in bw
Considering we just chose Lucky_NOOB as the next Bulgarian Prime minister... I don't even know what to consider anymore.
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On May 23 2023 00:06 Nirli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2023 19:04 sas.Sziky wrote:Nelson Mandela: “Fools multiply when wise men are silent.” Well, not true in bw Considering we just chose Lucky_NOOB as the next Bulgarian Prime minister... I don't even know what to consider anymore.
I was unaware, guess I should get to work... All I know is RaGe (I assume Terran player) closed a related Age Of Tesagi (Or is it?) thread...
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On May 23 2023 03:30 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2023 00:06 Nirli wrote:On May 22 2023 19:04 sas.Sziky wrote:Nelson Mandela: “Fools multiply when wise men are silent.” Well, not true in bw Considering we just chose Lucky_NOOB as the next Bulgarian Prime minister... I don't even know what to consider anymore. I was unaware, guess I should get to work... All I know is RaGe (I assume Terran player) closed a related Age Of Tesagi (Or is it?) thread... Your opening post was kind of bad in terms of quality (how an argument should be formed). That said, I don't think it warrants a closure of the thread.
I didn't plan to, but after this weird move from the mod, maybe I'll make a thread full of well thought-out arguments and see if it'll be called shitty.
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