Zerg's Doomed Future - Page 6

On May 19 2023 23:19 G5 wrote:


Terrans historically have been the players that bitch the most (despite them historically having the most success). Zergs historically seem to bitch the least and if they do, it's usually bitching about Terran because anyone with a brain would savagely roast them for complaining about ZvP. Protoss players typically bitch about PvZ and do so quite often but typically don't complain about PvT (until recently it seems). Terrans just bitch about everything.

I've known a lot of great foreigners and Koreans throughout the years and every single Terran outside of literally a few (Nyoken and Assem would be two that I could think of) would bitch about absolutely everything and do these mental gymnastics in order to convince themselves that despite the best player (at almost any given time) was a Terran or that Terrans were winning more than any other race, that somehow Terran is soooooo much harder than Protoss and Zerg and the game was sooooo unfair to them. It's honestly always been that way. I don't know what it is about Terran that has this effect on people but it's undeniably a constant.

On May 20 2023 00:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Brood War is a really fun game. Impossible to master. It is a shame Remastered wasnt taken serious by Blizzard.They didnt make a more powerful map editor. Not 2v2 ranked and now they dont even update seasons. Game outside of Korea is pretty much dead. How I wish ESL or other tour organizers made a circuit or something similar to sc2 so players could take competitive more serious. I Still hope microsoft take the torch and do something cool tho.

Sorry for the offtopic. Is kind of nostalgic we still complain about balance xd. In starcraft the guy that play the best is the winner. There is not really other way around it.

On May 18 2023 14:12 TMNT wrote:

You do realize that 60% means 6-4 after 10 games right? Flip one game and you have 5-5. Not exactly mopping the floor isn't it?

Also that 60% is for all games, including Ultimate Battle.

Snow once had a BO21 series vs Royal where he was up 10-2 then lost 7 in a row to 10-9 before he won the last game.

The map/race balance was deduced from a sample size in the range of hundreds to thousands, not from a single 9 game series.

On May 18 2023 15:58 Shinokuki wrote:

1000+ games across all top tier players is way more reliable than just few games from ASL. Like we kept saying, doing well in these matches in proleague is very important for top tier players. When they go on losing streak they are constantly in danger of losing that spot and having to give to a better player. These players do anything (going greedy builds, cheeses, standard, exploitation) to win and come ahead because this is their lifeline/gateway into 20-40k monthly income.

The truth of the matter is that zergs used to excel back when effort/larva/SK/hero/queen were all active and in pretty good mechanical shape. They relied on their insane mechanics to overcome hurdles. Zerg was, frankly, pretty OP back then so mapmakers have this "fear" of making zerg favored maps as you know zerg won asl 3x in a row lol. Now it's been roughly 2-3 years of zergs being on decline and the map frankly sucks for zergs atm. The maps exaberates the decline in mechanics for all zerg players as I mentioned before (gaps in mineral line, easy to cannon rush, nat simcity for tvz). Lot of koreans are saying how zerg's done once soma leaves to army. There really is no replacement for soma. There is no one to step up except maybe queen/soulkey but just look at soulkey's record the past few months. It's very abysmal.. Queen is also declining as well.

On May 20 2023 00:52 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


SPEAK ON IT!!! Yeah I really haven't seen much Protoss complaints... Maybe I just ignore Protoss kek...

On May 20 2023 11:40 Malongo wrote:

Anyone supporting that this map pool is bad for zerg 1v1 is clueless. They might not be favored but a 6/8 doesn't happen in an adverse map pool. Proleague statistics are useless for balance, games are random and players can't prepare before hand. Sponsored matches are closer to what could be representative though.

On May 20 2023 16:07 TMNT wrote:

I'm not supporting that this (ASL15) map pool is bad for Zerg per se. It's still good for ZvP.

I'm more of the opinion that maps in general in the modern era have been too good for Terran. That means they are too good for TvZ, and slightly good for TvP. As for Zerg, maps are too good for ZvP. Maps just suck for Protoss but hey, who cares because Protoss players don't need to practice?

But I'm more disturbed by the way you dismiss the importance of online games (proleagues, spongames, KCM etc.) in favor of a few ASL games. Your reasoning is they play more standard in online games so it doesn't reflect the race power of Zerg. Well, shouldn't playing standard be more representative of map balance rather than a cheese build? Are you saying Hero's 4 Pool on Nemesis in ASL says more about that map balance than hundred of other games they already played online? Secondly, Terran and Protoss can do abusive builds as well, so it balances out. See JYJ's 1 base Wraith Marine almost all-in vs Soulkey this ASL, or Mini's 2 Gate opening vs Queen a few seasons back.

You must be the only person on the internet who dismisses proleague games as useless like that. Koreans didn't create eloboard and record those stats for nothing. Progamers themselves value it highly and use them for map balance discussion all the time.

On May 20 2023 16:07 TMNT wrote:

I'm not supporting that this (ASL15) map pool is bad for Zerg per se. It's still good for ZvP.

I'm more of the opinion that maps in general in the modern era have been too good for Terran. That means they are too good for TvZ, and slightly good for TvP. As for Zerg, maps are too good for ZvP. Maps just suck for Protoss but hey, who cares because Protoss players don't need to practice?

But I'm more disturbed by the way you dismiss the importance of online games (proleagues, spongames, KCM etc.) in favor of a few ASL games. Your reasoning is they play more standard in online games so it doesn't reflect the race power of Zerg. Well, shouldn't playing standard be more representative of map balance rather than a cheese build? Are you saying Hero's 4 Pool on Nemesis in ASL says more about that map balance than hundred of other games they already played online? Secondly, Terran and Protoss can do abusive builds as well, so it balances out. See JYJ's 1 base Wraith Marine almost all-in vs Soulkey this ASL, or Mini's 2 Gate opening vs Queen a few seasons back.

You must be the only person on the internet who dismisses proleague games as useless like that. Koreans didn't create eloboard and record those stats for nothing. Progamers themselves value it highly and use them for map balance discussion all the time.

On May 20 2023 15:02 Kyadytim wrote:
Protoss never really had a community leader of balance whining and raging on stream like Artosis, Avilo, Idra, or qxc.

Also, back before Starcraft 2, "Protoss OP" and "Protoss easy" were just part of the the BW community consciousness. It was just normal and expected for people to shit on Protoss players for being skilless 1a2a3a monkeys who simply roll their face on their keyboard and win. Speaking up to say "Protoss has been underperforming for a while now, maybe the race is a little weak" was a pretty good way to make a lot of people very hostile to you.

As somebody who used to play Protoss on ICCup, I have "fond" memories of Avilo crashing PvZ advice threads to explain to us poor, low IQ Protoss players that every Protoss player, including the best Korean pros, were all idiots and playing the matchup wrong. To someone of his staggering intellect, it was easily obvious that we should have been opening 2 gate (in main) Dragoons against Zerg, because Dragoons are OP.

On May 20 2023 20:38 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


I don't think we should count SC2 ppl if they became most famous from SC2... Maybe they were big voices in ICCUP but IDK the numbers... I was late to ICCUP so I heard about Avilo just recently and nobody wants him as they spokes person kek... I don't see a liquipedia page on him or qxc for that matter in the Brood War section. Idra has one. And they all have sc2 page as well.

On May 20 2023 21:41 KrillinFromwales wrote:
nothing worse than pvz imo. you've got ling all-ins, hydra all-ins and ogre zerg gamer on top of the standard hydra doing infinite damage nonsense. then there's lurkers and all the troubles with spores and so on.

tbh i don't see how playing a 12 minute pvt and then doing some recalls (when you don't lose all your probes to vultures) begins to equate with the nonsense of 973 busts. the game is literally over before you can get a corsair to the enemy base. the general whining of terran players shows they either have no sense of how difficult it is to deal with zerg early game or that they just don't comprehend protoss.

granted tvz still looks like an annihilation and zvz kinda sux but ya i don't mind listening to zerg players whine. imo t > z > p is the overall hash of the game taking all the 3 matchups into consideration.

but ya i'll never really sympathize with terrans who can't deal with arbiters or something when i compare the scenario to dealing with 973 and ling all-ins, ogre zerg gamer etc. i can kinda sympathize with z who don't like tvz but on the other hand it looks like a truly masterful zerg could wipe the floor on 4-player maps. once u get that ultra defiler deal ur rolling. it's just a matter of the rather difficult process of getting there.

edit: tbh i think tvp still looks easier than zvt cuz you're dealing with the same kind of late game superiority in both cases but zvt definitely looks more difficult to get there

edit2: really i think most terran players haven't put in much time as protoss. if they had any concept of how easy it is to roll a 200/200 death ball with its trash armor shield upgrades then they wouldn't complain so much. 200/200 3-2 terran is just so superior and you can EMP for like 2000 damage while denying stasis and so on. have these terran really tried to remax a gateway man army off 20 gates from 2 mains running thru minefields with no obs and worrying about slow no-energy templars and arbiters? they just wanna complain about easy wins but they're not taking charge of the game with mines and probe snipes. foreign terran just let protoss walk all over them and it shows that they don't off-race enough.

the mentality that you play 1% of your games with protoss and are still 200 points higher than your terran main account shows that you don't want to win or always take the path of greatest resistance. just playing terran because it's hard doesn't make sense.

On May 22 2023 09:29 vOdToasT wrote:


Try to get to S rank with every race (or whatever your highest rank was), and your perspective will expand.
Also, you can't say that any race is the strongest in the game overall, because we know that racial winrates differ by map, and that every matchup can be favoured to either side depending on the map.
What you can say is that in the metagame (the maps that people are playing on), one side is favoured.

For example:

Eclipse is balanced in every matchup, except it's slightly Zerg favoured in ZvP.
Blue Storm on the other hand was Protoss favoured in PvZ.

Vermeer is Terran favoured in both matchups.

Retro is balanced in both Terran matchups.

Dark Origin is slightly disfavoured for Terran in both matchups.

Heartbreak Ridge is Protoss favoured in PvT.

Pick any race and either of its matchups, and I can give you a map that people actually played on (no meme maps that were immediately abandoned due to imbalance like Central Plains for Protoss or Battle Royale for Zerg), that favoured your chosen race.
I can also give you a map that didn't favour either race for that matchup.

It must be mentioned that on the same map, statistics can change from year to year. Fighting Spirit was almost 60% TvP at one point, but now it's balanced in every matchup except for a slight Zerg advantage in ZvP.

From one year to the next, on Circuit Breakers, Terran went from winning one matchup almost 60% and having the other at 50%, to those matchups changing place. The even matchup became favoured just as much, and the favoured matchup became even.

On May 22 2023 16:37 TMNT wrote:
The video itself is tongue in cheek. I'm surprised many took it too seriously.

On May 22 2023 19:04 sas.Sziky wrote:
Nelson Mandela: “Fools multiply when wise men are silent.” Well, not true in bw

On May 23 2023 00:06 Nirli wrote:


Considering we just chose Lucky_NOOB as the next Bulgarian Prime minister... I don't even know what to consider anymore.

On May 23 2023 03:30 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


I was unaware, guess I should get to work... All I know is RaGe (I assume Terran player) closed a related Age Of Tesagi (Or is it?) thread...