Zerg's Doomed Future

On May 09 2023 04:31 KameZerg wrote:


You have to look all around the map to make units, terran and toss can just look at their main.

On May 09 2023 08:17 TMNT wrote:
A lot of tongue in cheek stuff, but the bit about Soma going to the army is actually true though. JD Queen Hero are all 33 now and declining. Soulkey only one year younger but unmotivated (he doesn't practice much).

But it's not like the Terrans are much younger though. I feel like if top Korean BW continues for 2-3 years and Royal goes to the army as well, no one can match Snow and Mini. They are the two youngest players who already fulfilled military service.

On May 09 2023 07:44 QOGQOG wrote:
This coming after Zerg ended ASL 15 with a winning record in both matchups...

On May 09 2023 00:34 pheer wrote:
As soon as Soma goes to army... only geriatrics left then... lmao

On May 09 2023 06:06 Peeano wrote:

What do you mean? 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh = Dead Protoss

On May 10 2023 01:18 JieXian wrote:
What's so special about the army Choco-pie?



I thought being called a boomer was bad enough, but Calm took it up a notch ahahah

@jinjin5000: thank you for your translation as always! Somehow I find that the Korean pros are really funny and entertaining

one small thing, the position of the subtitles is too far at the bottom of the video that it is covered by the youtube progress bar

On May 10 2023 21:27 ZeroByte13 wrote:
Zerg did win won 3 ASLs in a row in 2020-2021, a couple of them even with Flash playing.
Nothing changed in the game balance, only maps and meta did.
Were the maps in the last few seasons very bad for Zerg?

On May 09 2023 08:45 Shinokuki wrote:


It's also the maps. Mapmakers started adding ridiculous simcity for toss/terran to simcity their nat, 1 gap wall for zealot to go in, cannona'ble naturals, and wide open choke for zergs to defend. Result? only soma performing decently.

80 IQ toss and whiny terrans need to give in and comply with possible extinction of zergs.

On May 12 2023 15:26 Malongo wrote:

You must be new here, without a simcity in your nat pvz is basically just about fighting endless waves of hydra busts over and over. Unless you want to move into pre 2008 or so era when every pvz was a forced 1v2 base play. Just look at the results from ASL with the maps you complain about, imagine maps with open wide naturals.

On May 09 2023 02:53 Highgamer wrote:
From a Terran perspective it's interesting to hear them whine talk about the downside of the larva mechanic (which is well known of course, but still as a reminder), like that your decisions on what to build now can come back to haunt you soon after, more so than with the other races who can at least cancel and switch the production. Even more than that, Zergs' lack of a unit-queue for when you're busy microing never really occured to me.
Of course here they don't point out the strengths that come with it, like the possibility of quick tech-switches and sudden mass-unit production, and that you save money and space because you don't have to build so many production buildings.

On May 13 2023 02:03 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:

Rofl. you play a lot of zerg for sure. Tell me something. Imagine you are doing a basic 3 hatcheries mutalisk vs terran and is time to make the 9 mutas. But u press the wrong key and you build drones or scourges. Totally 9 larvas on that. Tell me how forgiving is that. The most easy thing to do is click gateways or barracks to build your units.. As a zerg you need to constantly build the right units (not only units) to no loss larvas in the process.

On May 12 2023 16:11 Shinokuki wrote:


You must be the one who is new. You don't know the current meta of tvz do you and how terran is able to get away with teching on 2 marines with nat simcity. For PvZ, the simcity is relatively same as 2016~2022 era, its just that it's harder for zerg to snipe forge when doing 973. The biggest struggle is where there are lot of gaps in nat where toss can put 1 zlot in and only 1 ling can hit it, causing z to make more lings than usual. Nowadays if zerg goes overpool first it's considered a loss build. They try to go 12 hat to overcome this so mapmakers have added in nat where toss can easily cannon rush if z wants to do that. Can you please look at the meta and actually hit 2300 MMR before you talk?

On May 12 2023 20:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:

He is not talking about Sim city. He is talking about certain places where protoss can put the zealot and lings can only fight 1 by 1. For example on Sylphid natural and the mineral only there is small gap to do this. On vermeer and Polypoid you can do this aswell.

On May 09 2023 08:45 Shinokuki wrote:
It's also the maps. Mapmakers started adding ridiculous simcity for toss/terran to simcity their nat, 1 gap wall for zealot to go in, cannona'ble naturals, and wide open choke for zergs to defend. Result? only soma performing decently.
80 IQ toss and whiny terrans need to give in and comply with possible extinction of zergs.

On May 12 2023 20:25 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
I totally agree that the new maps make it really easy to wall and to help canon rushing. In the past you could be really agressive vs terran with zerglings. Now every map offer almost a perfect Sim city to hold 6 lings with 1 scv 1 marine.
Sim city is not something new but atleast in the past there was a balance with the maps that you could do it as perfect as now.

On May 13 2023 15:30 Malongo wrote:


I'd say he is clearly talking about nats simcities.
Also how come 1 gap places for zealots are so problematic, you need micro to trade but the zealot is not going to do much there either.

Yes. Maps are designed to allow for easy defensive nats for all races. I don't see the problem.

On May 13 2023 14:54 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:

This just show very few people replying on this topic play zerg at all.

On top of that you all taking my example literally. My point was to show that if you make a missclick as a zerg when building units you are getting punish for it by not having the option to make more units. While as a protoss or Terran you can actually cancel your unit and fix your mistake.

When you play zerg in order to make units you need to press the number of the hatchery then the key to open the menu and then the unit. So there is just no way any other race make it harder to produce units. When you play zerg u cant let 3 larvas floating for to long or u already losing 1 larva x hatchery each time u let this happen. Something that as a protoss or Terran u dont have this issue.

So not zerg macro is not more forgiving at all than other races.

Im happy you are not dumb as me and we can read your amazing comments on this forum.
^_^

On May 13 2023 16:07 Shinokuki wrote:

We're not talking about nat simcity. We're talking about cracks/gaps within the mineral line where pros can place 1 zlot which forces zerg players to make more lings than usual and that alters optimized build order zerg was going for.

On May 13 2023 20:04 TMNT wrote:

I mean, this is a very weird sentiment to have. So you have an "usual", "optimized build order" you would like to make, and I'm not supposed to interfere with it even though we're trying to kill each other?

Yeah, me too. As a Protoss I'd like to have Stargate up before Cannon too. That's how I optimize my build but how come the map makers not make the natural on high ground so I can enjoy my build order?

Plus, the zealot in the mineral gap is not gonna shoot drones from range is he? You can always wait for it to come out and surround it with the few lings you have. or you can be even cuter, do the trick where you pull the injured ling back after 1 hit and send a new one in. But I guess it takes skills.

If anything, we need more of that mineral gap because as of the current map pool, Zerg still wins >50% on most maps.

On May 13 2023 23:10 Shinokuki wrote:


I mean I'm not arguging that the gap in nat is way too OP. It's just that its a disadvantage among other disadvantages that zerg has been given purely because of how many builds have come out from zerg's side with insane mining efficiency (soma ftw). The problem is that only soma has been doing well in god tier level. Also if zerg does not have >50% in pvz why even play zerg? Zergs are getting crapped on by terran and you still want zerg to have 50% or less win rate vs toss?

Also, at the highest level every disadvantage is crucial so it's huge to these players but for players like us i'd say it doesn't matter lol and that zerg is in good hands

On May 14 2023 01:01 TMNT wrote:

Protoss are having less than 50% in both matchups for years and they are still playing

But I agree that map pools have been too good for Terran. They are crapping on Zergs that even a player like JYJ who is like 30% vs all the top Protoss can still win an ASL by playing Zergs only.

On May 13 2023 07:18 XenOsky wrote:
Free Map hack
Best harrasing unit in the game
Best basic unit in the game
Best Late game unit in the game
Easiest/shortest match ups
most number of cheeses that actually work
most number of all in builds that work, some people even call 973 standard, LOL
most number of unorthodox strategies
fastest units


zergs please...

On May 14 2023 08:57 Malongo wrote:


So you want maps to be more zerg favoured? For real?
+ Show Spoiler +

On May 14 2023 09:00 Shinokuki wrote:


Instead of countering my point you bring up ASL and not ELOBOARD stats which consists of 1000+ games. ASL is one off event where it favors zergs who go for all in games

On May 09 2023 02:36 Akio wrote:
Well the zerg support group is certainly a rare sight Usually it's the Terrans that whine about their race being the hardest, while the Tosses say they never win tournaments...

On May 14 2023 17:22 hitthat wrote:


Oh, the times. In 2010-2012 the Zergs were the biggest whiners and don't even pretend they weren't.
Times has changed...

On May 14 2023 09:31 Malongo wrote:
I'm just saying it makes literally no sense. By far the most important event in pro level Broodwar and you basically want it to become a full zerg RO8. ELOBOARD is like asking for the practice games to be relevant.

On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE.

Exhibit A:

On May 15 2023 17:30 Djabanete wrote:
Isn’t it a bit reckless to draw conclusions from the performances of ~15 players, no matter how many games those players play?

The very top players are outliers by definition. I feel that the most important balance metric should be win rates between roughly the fifth- through fifteenth-best players in each race. It’s safer to assume that the fifth- through fifteenth-best Protoss players have equal skill to their Zerg counterparts (and that therefore win percentages will say something about race balance or map balance) than that the two best Protoss players have equal skill as the two best Zerg players (which would imply that there’s a balance problem if those four players aren’t going 50-50).

On May 15 2023 03:14 vOdToasT wrote:


Artosis is not normal. He is the DSP and the LTG of StarCraft.
Which other Terran users can you name who whine? For every Terran you can name, I can name a Protoss or Zerg.
I used to believe that Terran users whined the most, but after playing every race and getting whined at, and partaking in the Zerg, Protoss, and Terran sections of CPL (I'm not that good but they wanted me so I obliged), I no longer believe that.

On May 15 2023 08:37 TMNT wrote:
Since eloboard introduced the advanced search function, I really like to play with the win rate of players over a period of time. Here's a Top5 vs Top5 vs Top5 table with only games in 2023 counted. Will make a thread after the first 6 months.

The table is to be read as [Row vs Column] (for example, Snow vs Mini is 43.5% for Snow).
Yellow means the two players are pretty much 50/50. Light green (55-60%) means slightly favorite and green (>60%) is heavily favorite. Opposite for orange and red.



I have to admit if not for Soma, Zerg is absolutely fucked.
Meanwhile, Snow looks like he's more suited to the saying "It's not TerranProtoss, it's just FlashSnow".
Light just has almost no weakness.
Oh and Bisu is still amazing in 2023.

On May 10 2023 12:39 jinjin5000 wrote:


if i put it any higher, it seems to cover pros faces.

Already issue with bigger subs tho

On May 16 2023 07:20 Ideas wrote:
Hard to believe that the zerg players in proleague/ASL are uniquely susceptible to ageing out of BW relevancy compared to their protoss and terran peers that are the same ages.

Bigger concern is that it's 2023 and it's still just as hard as ever for the younger generation to break into the scene. As the former kespa players inevitably ages out of BW/streaming, who will replace them? Only soma has been able to play at their level so far and he's only a couple years younger.

On May 16 2023 23:30 Mutaller wrote:
Zerg is still the most popular race in round of 8 which doesn't have me worried. I am more sad for protoss players. Terrans just seem to have their new valk build and it'll be a while until zergs have a good build that can go against it and also the mix up builds terran can choose to do.

On May 16 2023 15:12 Shinokuki wrote:
Before anyone mentions ASL stats again, I dare to say that ASL stats doesn't even matter. JYJ/MIND/HERO/JD are all considerd low tier/bottom of the barrel type of players in daily major proleagues btw. ASL seems to be considered an event now with daily proleagues being very important. thousands of games are played across months rather than 50~60 games in ASL. You do well in PL? You are constantly recruited into it with prize pool for each player reaching about ~50-90k per person in a single month.

Foreigners need to realize

Major Proleague >>>>> ASL >> K league>> Race War.

Major proleague = where all big hitters play and many games are played. This is the main source of income for top tier players and zergs are god awful in THE MOST IMPORTANT event lol.

On May 17 2023 01:30 QOGQOG wrote:

So the only stats that matter are the ones that support you? How convenient.

Regardless of which are more prestigious, ASL results do show, quite clearly, that Zergs can compete at the top level. They don't cease to be relevant simply because you think that other competitions are more important.

And of course, Soma is competing just fine in Proleague, so it's not impossible for Zerg to succeed there either.

I can't believe how much nonsense has been generated on this thread about the whining of players who are competitively irrelevant (and, admittedly, SoulKey). The meta and maps have shifted and not been great for Zerg for a few months. It's interesting to hear the players talk about it. But buying into the "Zerg is actually in a terrible spot because it's always been underpowered and super difficult and if you doubt me look at this extremely limited set of stats" is absolutely ridiculous.

On May 14 2023 22:37 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


Terrans live in an alternate universe where anything legitimate anyone else says is whining, but terran whining is "facts". I don't remember ever a time where Zergs were whining more. Even if this is true you have made up for it until the year 69420 CE.

Exhibit A:

On May 17 2023 02:34 hitthat wrote:


I know EXACLY what I'm talking about. Zergs were the biggest crybabies of whole races at leat around 2010/2011. Terran this, terran that... the culmination of this stupid neverending rage was when Sea beat Jaedong in one of MSL game. The shit just hit the fan. No matter that map was horrible, no matter that Jaedong did bad trading untill his well executed sandwich, traded multiple mutalisks for a single science vessel and failed to sufficiently damage Sea's economy allowing him to make succesfull transision into mech. All what Sea was doing was taking Terran. There should be a topic here on TL, it was more atrocious than my english. And don't even make me start about how the chats went full Zerg rage that day.

I love how deluded Zergs are. That was the golden time of Zergs and they were still crying "TERRAN IMBA".


I always believe that Protoss players were the most chill...

On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.

They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous.

On May 17 2023 09:24 Shinokuki wrote:


Which zergs can compete other than soma or queen? (queen can go 0-5 then go 4-5 but he's so shaky these days). I genuinely don't know any other zerg than soma who can perform above 50% win rate nowadays in major proleague

On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
You really sound like a what you are talking about.... I quote "terran this, terran that..." Great insight! Very Terran indeed haha

On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
At least we can articulate what we hate about terran (all their upgrades that make their units superior in a real scenario)...

On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
I'll help you tho.. I'm that kind!

On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:
Terrans say Lings, Mutas, Defilers, Ultras are OP

On May 17 2023 05:21 LUCKY_NOOB wrote: So it's rich ANY Terran EVER would call ANY Zerg EVER delusional... When delusion is basically synonimous with Terran.

On May 17 2023 14:24 Malongo wrote:

I already told you how proleague is less interesting as a data source because all players are less likely to diversify their strategies and play something standard. The same reason JyJ and Mind play better in individual leagues is the reason Zerg will always be harder to play against in a BOX series. It's not a fluke that we had a ro8 with 5Z2T1P in ASL15. Hero, Action and SK are ridiculously good in series.

On May 17 2023 15:46 hitthat wrote:


As opposed to some Zergs, who couldn't tell why someone lost a game even if it's realy easy to explain.


Lol, I already gave you example of the most cringy Zerg complain with old Sea vs Jeadong game, where the Zerg argument for JD's defeat was literaly "Sea play terran". None of the complainers took an effort to honestly review whole game, in which Sea just played smart, abusing the map advantege for T against JD, and JD falling into bad trades again and again.



I know, I know. You don't have to signal this that loud



As I said, times has change. In 2009-2012 Terrans were complaining mostly about protoss units. I don't remmember a single complain about lings from T.



Oh, the irony. Out of two of us only a single person complained about units, when the other complained about stupid rage reactions ^^

On May 17 2023 01:57 TMNT wrote:
Yeah, "god awful" is an overstatement. Not being at the top of the Proleague table doesn't necessarily mean they are in a terrrible spot.

They need to fix the maps though. The fact that Terran has been for years enjoying "standard" maps in which both of their matchups are positive is just ridiculous.

On May 16 2023 00:04 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:



So kinda like Flash? We just should ignore his achievements? I've never seen a Terran NOT whine actually. And if a Zerg in CPL is whining but that is AT BEST 2000 people who read it... So drawing equivalency of the impact is just laughable. So I assume your point is every1 whines sometimes? My point is Terran whining sells the most and has the biggest impact on the foreigner game. OFC it was koreans who came up with the T word... But there are a lot of big names who are able to speak about it. And to be fair to Tastosis they are very fair while casting ASL from what I've seen. It's the personal streams...

On May 17 2023 21:51 vOdToasT wrote:


These are the racial Terran statistics from the previous ASL's map pool (About two weeks old; I'm not doing the same research again for this):

Retro: TvZ 49.7%, TvP 48.5%
Dark Origin: TvZ 45.8%, TvP 43.6%
Heartbreak Ridge: TvZ 46.7%, TvP 42.4%
Nemesis: TvZ 56%, TvP 48.5%
Neo Sylphid: TvZ 59.7%, TvP 51.4%
Vermeer: TvZ 56.9%, TvP 56.5%
76: TvZ 52.9%, TvP 36.4%

Polypoid: 56.3%
Vermeer: 57.7%
Eclipse: 52.5%
Sylphid: 60.1% (who let this happen?)
Fighting Spirit: 51.9% (and I thought it was the worst map ever)
Allegro: 51.4%
Ascension: 58.5%
Revolver: 54.3%
Butter: 53%
Largo: 55.1% (that's why you were replaced by Allegro)
Nemesis: 56.5%
Odyssey: 56.9%
Metaverse: 59.7% (sigh)
Monopoly: 51.9%
76: 53.3%
Neo Arkanoid: 51.6%

Retro: 50.4% (there's hope)
Goodnight: 47% (finally, but ZvP is broken here)

Dark Orgin: 46.4%
Heartbreak Ridge: 46.9% (turns out maps need to have a backdoor for Z to beat T)

On May 17 2023 19:29 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:

You wouldn't know irony if it dropped on your head and ironed your skull...

I quote your self description "Shameless BroodWar separatistic, elitist, fanaticaly devoted puritan fanboy."

Mike drop (on my phone cuz my other mic is not drop resistant kek)

On May 17 2023 17:19 TMNT wrote:

But this is an arbitrary assumption because it "feels right". If you actually go and count their strategy in each game I doubt you'd get that result.

Go back to my win rate table, for example, the pair Rush vs Soma has a freaking sample size of 112, There's no way in 112 games Soma didn't diversify his strategies. Plus, many of them are actually BOX series (spongames between themselves).

On May 18 2023 11:54 Malongo wrote:

No it's not arbitrary and it's not because it "feels right", that's yours. I'm trying to explain a behavior in a logic way. It's on you to disprove my claim if you think I'm wrong so it should be you the one counting. Now, on the same topic, why do you think Snow that has a ridiculous 60% winrate against Queen on the same maps on proleague goes 2-5 on ultimate battle (final count was 4-5 but last 2 games where just fillers). If proleague was a good indicator of map balance/results Snow should have mopped the floor with Queen.

On May 18 2023 12:56 Malongo wrote:
In the end what I am trying to disprove here is the: "maps are bad for zerg, you can see it because of this table" argument. If maps were bad for zerg then ASL15 results would have been a fluke inside a fluke. Maybe it's the proleague format (players can't prepare specific mu/opponents before hand), maybe zerg players are not team players or maybe they don't care as much idk.

It would be great to have your table separated by 1v1/sponsored games and series vs proleague matches, since those are 2 different formats.

On May 18 2023 12:56 Malongo wrote:
In the end what I am trying to disprove here is the: "maps are bad for zerg, you can see it because of this table" argument. If maps were bad for zerg then ASL15 results would have been a fluke inside a fluke. Maybe it's the proleague format (players can't prepare specific mu/opponents before hand), maybe zerg players are not team players or maybe they don't care as much idk.

It would be great to have your table separated by 1v1/sponsored games and series vs proleague matches, since those are 2 different formats.

On May 17 2023 21:53 vOdToasT wrote:


You named Flash, so I'll name Stork. I'll play this game for as long as you will.

On May 17 2023 22:14 TMNT wrote:

I already did an even more comprehensive one here: https://tl.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=28053294
This is only TvZ (updated as of today):



The "standard" maps on the above list are obviously: FS, Polypoid, Eclipse, Sylphid, Vermeer. It's almost like: the 3-4 standard maps that were used multiples time in ASL and used exclusively in qualifiers are heavily in favor of Terran. Then they add 3-4 "weird" maps which may or may not be in favor of Terran.

Literally during the last 1 2 years there are only 3 maps in favor of Z in ZvT. And at 46-47% win rate for T on those maps, it's not even a big disadvantage.

On May 18 2023 20:30 vOdToasT wrote:


The qualifier map pool was Terran favoured, but the tournament map pool was not

On May 18 2023 19:20 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


Stork "barely makes it in Ro8" Stork?

On May 19 2023 23:19 G5 wrote:


Terrans historically have been the players that bitch the most (despite them historically having the most success). Zergs historically seem to bitch the least and if they do, it's usually bitching about Terran because anyone with a brain would savagely roast them for complaining about ZvP. Protoss players typically bitch about PvZ and do so quite often but typically don't complain about PvT (until recently it seems). Terrans just bitch about everything.

I've known a lot of great foreigners and Koreans throughout the years and every single Terran outside of literally a few (Nyoken and Assem would be two that I could think of) would bitch about absolutely everything and do these mental gymnastics in order to convince themselves that despite the best player (at almost any given time) was a Terran or that Terrans were winning more than any other race, that somehow Terran is soooooo much harder than Protoss and Zerg and the game was sooooo unfair to them. It's honestly always been that way. I don't know what it is about Terran that has this effect on people but it's undeniably a constant.

On May 20 2023 00:36 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
Brood War is a really fun game. Impossible to master. It is a shame Remastered wasnt taken serious by Blizzard.They didnt make a more powerful map editor. Not 2v2 ranked and now they dont even update seasons. Game outside of Korea is pretty much dead. How I wish ESL or other tour organizers made a circuit or something similar to sc2 so players could take competitive more serious. I Still hope microsoft take the torch and do something cool tho.

Sorry for the offtopic. Is kind of nostalgic we still complain about balance xd. In starcraft the guy that play the best is the winner. There is not really other way around it.

On May 18 2023 14:12 TMNT wrote:

You do realize that 60% means 6-4 after 10 games right? Flip one game and you have 5-5. Not exactly mopping the floor isn't it?

Also that 60% is for all games, including Ultimate Battle.

Snow once had a BO21 series vs Royal where he was up 10-2 then lost 7 in a row to 10-9 before he won the last game.

The map/race balance was deduced from a sample size in the range of hundreds to thousands, not from a single 9 game series.

On May 18 2023 15:58 Shinokuki wrote:

1000+ games across all top tier players is way more reliable than just few games from ASL. Like we kept saying, doing well in these matches in proleague is very important for top tier players. When they go on losing streak they are constantly in danger of losing that spot and having to give to a better player. These players do anything (going greedy builds, cheeses, standard, exploitation) to win and come ahead because this is their lifeline/gateway into 20-40k monthly income.

The truth of the matter is that zergs used to excel back when effort/larva/SK/hero/queen were all active and in pretty good mechanical shape. They relied on their insane mechanics to overcome hurdles. Zerg was, frankly, pretty OP back then so mapmakers have this "fear" of making zerg favored maps as you know zerg won asl 3x in a row lol. Now it's been roughly 2-3 years of zergs being on decline and the map frankly sucks for zergs atm. The maps exaberates the decline in mechanics for all zerg players as I mentioned before (gaps in mineral line, easy to cannon rush, nat simcity for tvz). Lot of koreans are saying how zerg's done once soma leaves to army. There really is no replacement for soma. There is no one to step up except maybe queen/soulkey but just look at soulkey's record the past few months. It's very abysmal.. Queen is also declining as well.

On May 20 2023 00:52 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


SPEAK ON IT!!! Yeah I really haven't seen much Protoss complaints... Maybe I just ignore Protoss kek...

On May 20 2023 11:40 Malongo wrote:

Anyone supporting that this map pool is bad for zerg 1v1 is clueless. They might not be favored but a 6/8 doesn't happen in an adverse map pool. Proleague statistics are useless for balance, games are random and players can't prepare before hand. Sponsored matches are closer to what could be representative though.

On May 20 2023 16:07 TMNT wrote:

I'm not supporting that this (ASL15) map pool is bad for Zerg per se. It's still good for ZvP.

I'm more of the opinion that maps in general in the modern era have been too good for Terran. That means they are too good for TvZ, and slightly good for TvP. As for Zerg, maps are too good for ZvP. Maps just suck for Protoss but hey, who cares because Protoss players don't need to practice?

But I'm more disturbed by the way you dismiss the importance of online games (proleagues, spongames, KCM etc.) in favor of a few ASL games. Your reasoning is they play more standard in online games so it doesn't reflect the race power of Zerg. Well, shouldn't playing standard be more representative of map balance rather than a cheese build? Are you saying Hero's 4 Pool on Nemesis in ASL says more about that map balance than hundred of other games they already played online? Secondly, Terran and Protoss can do abusive builds as well, so it balances out. See JYJ's 1 base Wraith Marine almost all-in vs Soulkey this ASL, or Mini's 2 Gate opening vs Queen a few seasons back.

You must be the only person on the internet who dismisses proleague games as useless like that. Koreans didn't create eloboard and record those stats for nothing. Progamers themselves value it highly and use them for map balance discussion all the time.

On May 20 2023 16:07 TMNT wrote:

I'm not supporting that this (ASL15) map pool is bad for Zerg per se. It's still good for ZvP.

I'm more of the opinion that maps in general in the modern era have been too good for Terran. That means they are too good for TvZ, and slightly good for TvP. As for Zerg, maps are too good for ZvP. Maps just suck for Protoss but hey, who cares because Protoss players don't need to practice?

But I'm more disturbed by the way you dismiss the importance of online games (proleagues, spongames, KCM etc.) in favor of a few ASL games. Your reasoning is they play more standard in online games so it doesn't reflect the race power of Zerg. Well, shouldn't playing standard be more representative of map balance rather than a cheese build? Are you saying Hero's 4 Pool on Nemesis in ASL says more about that map balance than hundred of other games they already played online? Secondly, Terran and Protoss can do abusive builds as well, so it balances out. See JYJ's 1 base Wraith Marine almost all-in vs Soulkey this ASL, or Mini's 2 Gate opening vs Queen a few seasons back.

You must be the only person on the internet who dismisses proleague games as useless like that. Koreans didn't create eloboard and record those stats for nothing. Progamers themselves value it highly and use them for map balance discussion all the time.

On May 20 2023 15:02 Kyadytim wrote:
Protoss never really had a community leader of balance whining and raging on stream like Artosis, Avilo, Idra, or qxc.

Also, back before Starcraft 2, "Protoss OP" and "Protoss easy" were just part of the the BW community consciousness. It was just normal and expected for people to shit on Protoss players for being skilless 1a2a3a monkeys who simply roll their face on their keyboard and win. Speaking up to say "Protoss has been underperforming for a while now, maybe the race is a little weak" was a pretty good way to make a lot of people very hostile to you.

As somebody who used to play Protoss on ICCup, I have "fond" memories of Avilo crashing PvZ advice threads to explain to us poor, low IQ Protoss players that every Protoss player, including the best Korean pros, were all idiots and playing the matchup wrong. To someone of his staggering intellect, it was easily obvious that we should have been opening 2 gate (in main) Dragoons against Zerg, because Dragoons are OP.

On May 20 2023 20:38 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


I don't think we should count SC2 ppl if they became most famous from SC2... Maybe they were big voices in ICCUP but IDK the numbers... I was late to ICCUP so I heard about Avilo just recently and nobody wants him as they spokes person kek... I don't see a liquipedia page on him or qxc for that matter in the Brood War section. Idra has one. And they all have sc2 page as well.

On May 20 2023 21:41 KrillinFromwales wrote:
nothing worse than pvz imo. you've got ling all-ins, hydra all-ins and ogre zerg gamer on top of the standard hydra doing infinite damage nonsense. then there's lurkers and all the troubles with spores and so on.

tbh i don't see how playing a 12 minute pvt and then doing some recalls (when you don't lose all your probes to vultures) begins to equate with the nonsense of 973 busts. the game is literally over before you can get a corsair to the enemy base. the general whining of terran players shows they either have no sense of how difficult it is to deal with zerg early game or that they just don't comprehend protoss.

granted tvz still looks like an annihilation and zvz kinda sux but ya i don't mind listening to zerg players whine. imo t > z > p is the overall hash of the game taking all the 3 matchups into consideration.

but ya i'll never really sympathize with terrans who can't deal with arbiters or something when i compare the scenario to dealing with 973 and ling all-ins, ogre zerg gamer etc. i can kinda sympathize with z who don't like tvz but on the other hand it looks like a truly masterful zerg could wipe the floor on 4-player maps. once u get that ultra defiler deal ur rolling. it's just a matter of the rather difficult process of getting there.

edit: tbh i think tvp still looks easier than zvt cuz you're dealing with the same kind of late game superiority in both cases but zvt definitely looks more difficult to get there

edit2: really i think most terran players haven't put in much time as protoss. if they had any concept of how easy it is to roll a 200/200 death ball with its trash armor shield upgrades then they wouldn't complain so much. 200/200 3-2 terran is just so superior and you can EMP for like 2000 damage while denying stasis and so on. have these terran really tried to remax a gateway man army off 20 gates from 2 mains running thru minefields with no obs and worrying about slow no-energy templars and arbiters? they just wanna complain about easy wins but they're not taking charge of the game with mines and probe snipes. foreign terran just let protoss walk all over them and it shows that they don't off-race enough.

the mentality that you play 1% of your games with protoss and are still 200 points higher than your terran main account shows that you don't want to win or always take the path of greatest resistance. just playing terran because it's hard doesn't make sense.

On May 22 2023 09:29 vOdToasT wrote:


Try to get to S rank with every race (or whatever your highest rank was), and your perspective will expand.
Also, you can't say that any race is the strongest in the game overall, because we know that racial winrates differ by map, and that every matchup can be favoured to either side depending on the map.
What you can say is that in the metagame (the maps that people are playing on), one side is favoured.

For example:

Eclipse is balanced in every matchup, except it's slightly Zerg favoured in ZvP.
Blue Storm on the other hand was Protoss favoured in PvZ.

Vermeer is Terran favoured in both matchups.

Retro is balanced in both Terran matchups.

Dark Origin is slightly disfavoured for Terran in both matchups.

Heartbreak Ridge is Protoss favoured in PvT.

Pick any race and either of its matchups, and I can give you a map that people actually played on (no meme maps that were immediately abandoned due to imbalance like Central Plains for Protoss or Battle Royale for Zerg), that favoured your chosen race.
I can also give you a map that didn't favour either race for that matchup.

It must be mentioned that on the same map, statistics can change from year to year. Fighting Spirit was almost 60% TvP at one point, but now it's balanced in every matchup except for a slight Zerg advantage in ZvP.

From one year to the next, on Circuit Breakers, Terran went from winning one matchup almost 60% and having the other at 50%, to those matchups changing place. The even matchup became favoured just as much, and the favoured matchup became even.

On May 22 2023 16:37 TMNT wrote:
The video itself is tongue in cheek. I'm surprised many took it too seriously.

On May 22 2023 19:04 sas.Sziky wrote:
Nelson Mandela: “Fools multiply when wise men are silent.” Well, not true in bw

On May 23 2023 00:06 Nirli wrote:


Considering we just chose Lucky_NOOB as the next Bulgarian Prime minister... I don't even know what to consider anymore.

On May 23 2023 03:30 LUCKY_NOOB wrote:


I was unaware, guess I should get to work... All I know is RaGe (I assume Terran player) closed a related Age Of Tesagi (Or is it?) thread...

On May 19 2023 23:19 G5 wrote:
Zergs historically seem to bitch the least

On May 23 2023 05:39 TMNT wrote:

Your opening post was kind of bad in terms of quality (how an argument should be formed). That said, I don't think it warrants a closure of the thread.

I didn't plan to, but after this weird move from the mod, maybe I'll make a thread full of well thought-out arguments and see if it'll be called shitty.