EPTWho is the SECOND greatest StarCraft: Brood War player of…
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4384 Posts
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G5
United States2921 Posts
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Galacsia
Chile163 Posts
That's obviously Bisu. He was one of the best at bw peak and currently in the ASL era still is one of the strongest players. Had he not lost to Mind in the MSL, he'd be considered a Bonjwa, however he definitely was Bonjwa level dominant. The bonjwas and Jaedong were strong at their time but afterwards they dwindled. We're not talking who was the most innovative (which Bisu also was) or the 2nd best player at a particular point in time. | ||
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XenOsky
Chile2316 Posts
On November 13 2022 04:04 Galacsia wrote: We are talking about the 2nd greatest of all time. It's gotta be a player that is both high skill and has endured for the longest time. That's obviously Bisu. He was one of the best at bw peak and currently in the ASL era still is one of the strongest players. Had he not lost to Mind in the MSL, he'd be considered a Bonjwa, however he definitely was Bonjwa level dominant. The bonjwas and Jaedong were strong at their time but afterwards they dwindled. We're not talking who was the most innovative (which Bisu also was) or the 2nd best player at a particular point in time. Ima die hard bisu fan, but he doesnt even make top 5 ... sadly  | ||
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We Are Here
Australia1810 Posts
I think Savior takes the cake as second best, I remember always hating him and was so happy when Bisu demolished him but respect is needed when discussing his reign, it was terrifying. My personal ratings: 1. Flash 2. Savior 3. Jaedong 4. Boxer 5. Bisu | ||
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Kare
Norway786 Posts
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huyg
2 Posts
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weiliem
2071 Posts
2nd best? maybe Jaedong, but 2nd GREATEST? No doubt NaDa | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia424 Posts
As for the greatest/best, it should be split by race as P is historically too far behind and obviously an underdog. Greatest Flash/Boxer 2nd Flash/Boxer Bisu 2nd Nalra or Stork Savior/Jaedong 2nd Savior/Jaedong Best Flash 2nd oov or nada Bisu 2nd Jangbi Jaedong 2nd tough, but not savior | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13305 Posts
The modern gamers wouldn’t exist without the pioneering the older generation did. Guys like Boxer, Oov, Nada, Savior were not just greats due to them dominating the best competition there was at the time, they also did so much for the meta of BW that future generations benefited from. And that’s not just gameplay but the way they practised and approached big games etc. For me, the greats are those who changed the meta and had the individual dominance to go with it. So for me: Flash Boxer (he made BW a prime time event. He was so dominant in his time and made BW so popular. None of what came after with BW’s popularity happens without him). Oov/Nada (I can’t split these two. Both very dominant. Oov showed the power of macro Terran that is still around today. Nada was a BW artist). Savior (I know he’s a scumbag but it’s hard to ignore his dominance plus the huge influence he had on modern Zerg play. The first dominant Zerg player). Bisu/Jaedong (again hard to split. Both so influential and had great results). I think this is the core group of greatest of all BW players. Others like Jangbang, garimto, nalra, Light, Stork, Fantasy, Effort, Zero are the next tier. All excellent players with great legacies but don’t have the influence of those above. | ||
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VGhost
United States3616 Posts
I'm assuming number one has to be Flash at this point, just because of the pinnacle of longevity and skill - and we forget sometimes, but also innovation - his career represents. Number two really depends, but I thought the question could be approached a couple different ways: Skill - Jaedong, Effort, and Bisu all have a strong argument for being next-best. I'd give the nod to Jaedong of those three. Longevity - Nada is really the only one who comes close. Bisu and Stork could be included in the conversation depending how you view post-KeSPA. Innovation/Icon status - Boxer, oov, Savior, Bisu come to mind. Jaedong, Nada, and July might have an argument. This last one was the direction I went and I picked Boxer, but now I'm thinking through I think Bisu may have the best case for number two. | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
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Incomplete..ReV
Norway638 Posts
Going by pure feelings and devotion, I would however have voted for Avi-Love <3 | ||
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RowdierBob
Australia13305 Posts
But what he did for the PvZ matchup and that brief period of Protoss domination matters a lot. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8809 Posts
On November 14 2022 18:14 RowdierBob wrote: Bisu just doesn’t have the individual achievements to warrant being #2. He’s an incredible player who deserves to be in the conversation but his resume doesn’t stack up to guys like Oov, Nada, Boxer or even JD. But what he did for the PvZ matchup and that brief period of Protoss domination matters a lot. depends if you take all-time to include current afreeca. bisu is actually the only player besides flash that has consistently played at the top level. what he lacked in individual trophies he made up for in insane amounts of wins in the proleague. i think in the last 2 seasons of proleague he was pretty much rank 1 or 2 in wins. he also had jd's number for the last years of proleague and generally performed better than jd overall in proleague, that performance difference continuing to this day. for me jd stays in contention only because of his dominance prior to moving to team 8. and if this is a question about skill rather than impact on the scene, the current players in their 30s would dance around all the old gen pros even back when they were in their early 20s. thats how quick the old gen became obsolete. they left their mark on the game but the game left them in the dust. i remember a recent moment when yellow gave jd shit (jokingly) when jd stated that he could hit s rank on ladder in his sleep still, because yellow struggles to hit s rank and was very proud when he got it. | ||
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium4041 Posts
oh, wait i thought you meant the Greatest "Second Player" of all time! | ||
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TMNT
3117 Posts
Flash the God himself even said that his Kespa version would lose to his modern version due to the fully developed meta nowadays. In other words, the old legends couldn't keep up with the demand of modern competitive BW. Take Nada for example. He couldn't even qualify for ASL when he was at the same age as Bisu now - the latter still a top 8 player at the moment. Imo the old legends should belong to a group called most influential or most talented players, they are nowhere near the greatest or the best. Like in tennis the GOAT is either Federer/Nadal/Djokovic - not the guy who invented the backhand or something like that. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28743 Posts
Best is like, 'played on the highest skill level'. That list is going to be dominated by contemporary players, unless someone was so god damn good (or they played a sport/game with remarkably little evolution over time) that they're still #1. Greatest is like, less tangible, because it's more of a 'how dominant was this person when looking at his or her contemporary competition (even factoring in stuff like 'how good was this competition'). The 'best' runner of all time is the person holding the world record - but the greatest runner of all time might be the one who won 3 consecutive olympic golds and set a world record that lasted for 30 years. Like in football, if people are trying to make a list over 'best players ever', Pele does not have a chance at making that list. Put Pele from the 60s in today's game (not 'imagine Pele with a modern training regimen etc etc) and he's probably not going to get all that far. (Not a knock on Pele at all). The 'best' player of all time is Messi - whereas you can make a legit case - and people do - that Pele might challenge him for the title of 'greatest'. For Tennis, it just so happens that the top 3 of the previous decade also happens to dominate the overall grand slam ratings, so you can argue that the best of all time are also the greatest. | ||
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TMNT
3117 Posts
On November 14 2022 20:06 Liquid`Drone wrote: Imo you're conflating greatest and best. Best is like, 'played on the highest skill level'. That list is going to be dominated by contemporary players, unless someone was so god damn good (or they played a sport/game with remarkably little evolution over time) that they're still #1. Greatest is like, less tangible, because it's more of a 'how dominant was this person when looking at his or her contemporary competition (even factoring in stuff like 'how good was this competition'). The 'best' runner of all time is the person holding the world record - but the greatest runner of all time might be the one who won 3 consecutive olympic golds and set a world record that lasted for 30 years. Like in football, if people are trying to make a list over 'best players ever', Pele does not have a chance at making that list. Put Pele from the 60s in today's game (not 'imagine Pele with a modern training regimen etc etc) and he's probably not going to get all that far. (Not a knock on Pele at all). The 'best' player of all time is Messi - whereas you can make a legit case - and people do - that Pele might challenge him for the title of 'greatest'. For Tennis, it just so happens that the top 3 of the previous decade also happens to dominate the overall grand slam ratings, so you can argue that the best of all time are also the greatest. I got your point. Like I said before, it all depends on how you define "greatest". So anyone is free to interpret and have their own goat of BW. But for me, even if you look at it from that perspective, there's still one question mark with the old legends: nothing prevented Boxer, Nada, etc. compete in the later stage of Kespa and post Kespa though. For example, Nada started to fade around 2006, with Boxer and Oov even earlier and a bit later for the Zerg players like July and Savior. And they were still in their early 20s at the time, not like at e-sport retirement age. So it's not like the 2006-2012 period was not contemporary to them. Imo they were just outclassed by the new generation of TBLS, Effort, Fantasy... in the later stage of Kespa, and stopped competing altogether after that. If you look at football or other sports, the "greatest" players started to fade when they got old or had career ending injuries, not when they were still supposed to be at their prime. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8809 Posts
this was the predominant view for quite a while and is now becoming a hot topic in some genres like lol, dota or cs, where we are seeing now that there are veterans approaching their late twenties or even thirties and are still playing. in hindsight i think the reason people presumed esports had an early retirement age was precisely because the og starcraft pros were so great and they stopped competing at that age, but imo there seems to be more evidence now that people are more than capable of competing at the highest level even in their 30s. that would mean that the og pros were actually forced into retirement early because they got gapped harder and faster by the new generation than any other generation of players in any other esports title. | ||
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