EPTWho is the SECOND greatest StarCraft: Brood War player of…
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GTR
51507 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28727 Posts
The issue there is, I think fewer people were really around for Boxer's heyday, and his play was much less accessible outside Korea - VOD quality was significantly worse at the time. But I will say that no player ever gave me the same feeling of amazement Boxer did. This happened many times - I'd be watching replays of him, wonder 'okay, so how on earth is he gonna win this one?' and then, 10 minutes later, after several incredibly cost efficient engagements in a row, he'd suddenly have it bagged up. I still think the best game of Brood War I've ever watched - when factoring in the significance of the game - was Boxer vs DIDI8 from WCG in 2002. Boxer had, much to the surprise of everybody, lost against Josez from peru, as well as Froz from USA, and was sitting at 4-2 in his group. Then, he's playing vs DIDI, tvp on Neo Legacy of Char. Didi gets a significant early mid game lead, and at one point, he has supply limit protoss with 6 expansions, plenty of money and all the tech and infrastructure, against a 90-something supply terran on three bases. This was before the era of turtling terrans with 3-3 upgrades just holding out until they got a huge army that trounced through everything - and the comeback quite frankly looked impossible. But then, over the next 20 minutes, there were constant engagements going Boxer's way, there was a 2 vulture raid that ended up killing more than 20 probes while being chased by speed zealots, and eventually, gradually, Boxer clawed his way back, and he ended up winning a game lasting more than 50 minutes. This gave us a four-way 5-2 tie, between Boxer, Froz, Didi and Chobo (french guy). (Interestingly, we also had a 4-way 2-5 tie at the bottom - of Androide, Josez, Star)of_Lucky and Adolf. Josez beat Boxer and Didi, but lost every other game. After barely escaping what would have been the biggest upset of WCG history - Boxer not making it out of the group stage - he then waltzed through the entire bracket, and won the tournament. During his peak, there was a certain inevitability to his play- much like Flash, but also very different, in the sense that Boxer would, in the end, emerge victorious, but that it'd be a hard fought victory that he had to somehow, miraculously make happen. Compared with later players, he was incredibly flawed (early on, you'd occasionally see Boxer float 1500/800 before expanding) - but he'd make magic happen with how he utilized his units. With Flash, there'd just never be any real doubt. It's certainly more dominant, but to me, less awe-inspiring. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8505 Posts
 Just look:![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/CAy1qnc.jpg) | ||
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prosatan
Romania8505 Posts
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bracala
95 Posts
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GTR
51507 Posts
On November 09 2022 18:03 Liquid`Drone wrote: 'Best' is more possible to objectively characterize, and obviously favors people from later eras. 'Greatest' is subjective and more based around what you feel. The issue there is, I think fewer people were really around for Boxer's heyday, and his play was much less accessible outside Korea - VOD quality was significantly worse at the time. But I will say that no player ever gave me the same feeling of amazement Boxer did. This happened many times - I'd be watching replays of him, wonder 'okay, so how on earth is he gonna win this one?' and then, 10 minutes later, after several incredibly cost efficient engagements in a row, he'd suddenly have it bagged up. I still think the best game of Brood War I've ever watched - when factoring in the significance of the game - was Boxer vs DIDI8 from WCG in 2002. Boxer had, much to the surprise of everybody, lost against Josez from peru, as well as Froz from USA, and was sitting at 4-2 in his group. Then, he's playing vs DIDI, tvp on Neo Legacy of Char. Didi gets a significant early mid game lead, and at one point, he has supply limit protoss with 6 expansions, plenty of money and all the tech and infrastructure, against a 90-something supply terran on three bases. This was before the era of turtling terrans with 3-3 upgrades just holding out until they got a huge army that trounced through everything - and the comeback quite frankly looked impossible. But then, over the next 20 minutes, there were constant engagements going Boxer's way, there was a 2 vulture raid that ended up killing more than 20 probes while being chased by speed zealots, and eventually, gradually, Boxer clawed his way back, and he ended up winning a game lasting more than 50 minutes. This gave us a four-way 5-2 tie, between Boxer, Froz, Didi and Chobo (french guy). (Interestingly, we also had a 4-way 2-5 tie at the bottom - of Androide, Josez, Star)of_Lucky and Adolf. Josez beat Boxer and Didi, but lost every other game. After barely escaping what would have been the biggest upset of WCG history - Boxer not making it out of the group stage - he then waltzed through the entire bracket, and won the tournament. During his peak, there was a certain inevitability to his play- much like Flash, but also very different, in the sense that Boxer would, in the end, emerge victorious, but that it'd be a hard fought victory that he had to somehow, miraculously make happen. Compared with later players, he was incredibly flawed (early on, you'd occasionally see Boxer float 1500/800 before expanding) - but he'd make magic happen with how he utilized his units. With Flash, there'd just never be any real doubt. It's certainly more dominant, but to me, less awe-inspiring. Boxer was truly the first player where you'd think he could legit turn water into wine. Case in point. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8778 Posts
the og pros were good in their time, but the reality is when the new generation of maps and younger players came along the og pros got obsolete quick and never caught up. flash is obviously no.1 and 2nd would be a pick from anyone that is still good even to this day, but also good in broodwars prime. the only candidates are jd/bisu | ||
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Poegim
Poland264 Posts
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Creager
Germany1920 Posts
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iFU.pauline
France1660 Posts
And the contribution does not stop there, sAviOr was so cool because he was "reachable" from an amateur perspective, like you could somehow copy him and apply his build order and really improves. That was so not the case with Jaedong and EffOrt, their greedy strats kamikaze mode were impossible to replicate. So you could be in awe watching them but you would not try to play your zvt like EffOrt did for instance or else, depression awaits you. Well this is all very subjective of course and thinking twice about it, clearly Boxer had a similar impact on the game. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26223 Posts
On November 09 2022 18:03 Liquid`Drone wrote: 'Best' is more possible to objectively characterize, and obviously favors people from later eras. 'Greatest' is subjective and more based around what you feel. The issue there is, I think fewer people were really around for Boxer's heyday, and his play was much less accessible outside Korea - VOD quality was significantly worse at the time. But I will say that no player ever gave me the same feeling of amazement Boxer did. This happened many times - I'd be watching replays of him, wonder 'okay, so how on earth is he gonna win this one?' and then, 10 minutes later, after several incredibly cost efficient engagements in a row, he'd suddenly have it bagged up. I still think the best game of Brood War I've ever watched - when factoring in the significance of the game - was Boxer vs DIDI8 from WCG in 2002. Boxer had, much to the surprise of everybody, lost against Josez from peru, as well as Froz from USA, and was sitting at 4-2 in his group. Then, he's playing vs DIDI, tvp on Neo Legacy of Char. Didi gets a significant early mid game lead, and at one point, he has supply limit protoss with 6 expansions, plenty of money and all the tech and infrastructure, against a 90-something supply terran on three bases. This was before the era of turtling terrans with 3-3 upgrades just holding out until they got a huge army that trounced through everything - and the comeback quite frankly looked impossible. But then, over the next 20 minutes, there were constant engagements going Boxer's way, there was a 2 vulture raid that ended up killing more than 20 probes while being chased by speed zealots, and eventually, gradually, Boxer clawed his way back, and he ended up winning a game lasting more than 50 minutes. This gave us a four-way 5-2 tie, between Boxer, Froz, Didi and Chobo (french guy). (Interestingly, we also had a 4-way 2-5 tie at the bottom - of Androide, Josez, Star)of_Lucky and Adolf. Josez beat Boxer and Didi, but lost every other game. After barely escaping what would have been the biggest upset of WCG history - Boxer not making it out of the group stage - he then waltzed through the entire bracket, and won the tournament. During his peak, there was a certain inevitability to his play- much like Flash, but also very different, in the sense that Boxer would, in the end, emerge victorious, but that it'd be a hard fought victory that he had to somehow, miraculously make happen. Compared with later players, he was incredibly flawed (early on, you'd occasionally see Boxer float 1500/800 before expanding) - but he'd make magic happen with how he utilized his units. With Flash, there'd just never be any real doubt. It's certainly more dominant, but to me, less awe-inspiring. I wasn’t there for such moments, sadly. But well summed up. There’s always going to be some conflict for me when it comes to someone pushing the boundaries of what was thought possible/sensible, and someone with utter mastery of something largely figured out. I probably personally know a fair few players technically better than Eddie van Halen, but, I mean they’re not Eddie van Halen. | ||
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Mutaller
United States1051 Posts
On November 09 2022 01:36 CicadaSC wrote: I don't think Flash is the best, and post kespa era, while still competitive, should not be taken seriously and disregarded from the conversation. What about the OAT part of GOAT, you can't ignore a time frame because teams don't exist. If anything ASL shows you what players are self driven, rather than required to practice via contract. I find seeing who is self driven to be as actually an argument for being the greatest. If you are insistent that it shouldn't be included many other tournaments would then need to be disregarded. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3690 Posts
Nada was Flash before Flash, though the foreign scene has a pretty big TBLS bias so the result was sadly expected. | ||
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Piste
6180 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4228 Posts
It's Jaedong. | ||
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4228 Posts
On November 09 2022 19:28 evilfatsh1t wrote: if all time means including the surviving brood war scene now on afreeca, then not a single old generation pro should be anywhere close to the list. the og pros were good in their time, but the reality is when the new generation of maps and younger players came along the og pros got obsolete quick and never caught up. flash is obviously no.1 and 2nd would be a pick from anyone that is still good even to this day, but also good in broodwars prime. the only candidates are jd/bisu Agreed. | ||
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EndingLife
United States1598 Posts
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Waxangel
United States33503 Posts
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SpaNiarD
Spain351 Posts
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