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On November 14 2022 19:28 TMNT wrote:
No disrespect to the old legends but I don't know how anyone can write off the post-Kespa era as if it didn't exist, while in fact none of Boxer, Nada, Oov, July, Savior,... even competed/was able to compete in this era.
Flash the God himself even said that his Kespa version would lose to his modern version due to the fully developed meta nowadays. In other words, the old legends couldn't keep up with the demand of modern competitive BW.
Take Nada for example. He couldn't even qualify for ASL when he was at the same age as Bisu now - the latter still a top 8 player at the moment.
Imo the old legends should belong to a group called most influential or most talented players, they are nowhere near the greatest or the best.
Like in tennis the GOAT is either Federer/Nadal/Djokovic - not the guy who invented the backhand or something like that.
To be fair, Flash also said that if you gave the Kespa era Flash a month to practice in the current meta he wouldn't be able to win a single game against him.
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On November 15 2022 00:37 True_Spike wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2022 19:28 TMNT wrote:
No disrespect to the old legends but I don't know how anyone can write off the post-Kespa era as if it didn't exist, while in fact none of Boxer, Nada, Oov, July, Savior,... even competed/was able to compete in this era.
Flash the God himself even said that his Kespa version would lose to his modern version due to the fully developed meta nowadays. In other words, the old legends couldn't keep up with the demand of modern competitive BW.
Take Nada for example. He couldn't even qualify for ASL when he was at the same age as Bisu now - the latter still a top 8 player at the moment.
Imo the old legends should belong to a group called most influential or most talented players, they are nowhere near the greatest or the best.
Like in tennis the GOAT is either Federer/Nadal/Djokovic - not the guy who invented the backhand or something like that.
To be fair, Flash also said that if you gave the Kespa era Flash a month to practice in the current meta he wouldn't be able to win a single game against him.
Exactly, and that is why the players who dominated in BOTH the kespa and the modern era are the best, namely Flash Bisu and Jaedong. They've been at the top of BW at the peak of player's skill AND the peak of meta.
No one stopped Boxer Nada and co from competing in the modern era but they simply couldn't or didn't.
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Northern Ireland26688 Posts
On November 14 2022 20:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Imo you're conflating greatest and best.
Best is like, 'played on the highest skill level'. That list is going to be dominated by contemporary players, unless someone was so god damn good (or they played a sport/game with remarkably little evolution over time) that they're still #1.
Greatest is like, less tangible, because it's more of a 'how dominant was this person when looking at his or her contemporary competition (even factoring in stuff like 'how good was this competition'). The 'best' runner of all time is the person holding the world record - but the greatest runner of all time might be the one who won 3 consecutive olympic golds and set a world record that lasted for 30 years.
Like in football, if people are trying to make a list over 'best players ever', Pele does not have a chance at making that list. Put Pele from the 60s in today's game (not 'imagine Pele with a modern training regimen etc etc) and he's probably not going to get all that far. (Not a knock on Pele at all). The 'best' player of all time is Messi - whereas you can make a legit case - and people do - that Pele might challenge him for the title of 'greatest'.
For Tennis, it just so happens that the top 3 of the previous decade also happens to dominate the overall grand slam ratings, so you can argue that the best of all time are also the greatest.
Well said.
I mean if we’re talking ‘best’ all time, Andy Murray has an incredible game and a great CV, especially on many all-time metrics he places very high indeed.
But he can’t be that high in any ‘greatest’ category given he was comfortably 4th best for much of his peak in the era he played in.
Least to my mind, and I try to apply the same rationale here
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51586 Posts
On November 14 2022 21:30 evilfatsh1t wrote:
actually this brings up another point that i think is a misconception now in esports; that the retirement age of esports athletes is in the early to mid twenties.
this was the predominant view for quite a while and is now becoming a hot topic in some genres like lol, dota or cs, where we are seeing now that there are veterans approaching their late twenties or even thirties and are still playing.
in hindsight i think the reason people presumed esports had an early retirement age was precisely because the og starcraft pros were so great and they stopped competing at that age, but imo there seems to be more evidence now that people are more than capable of competing at the highest level even in their 30s. that would mean that the og pros were actually forced into retirement early because they got gapped harder and faster by the new generation than any other generation of players in any other esports title.
wasn't it more because military service was effectively the death sentence of a korean player's career?
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On November 15 2022 04:49 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2022 21:30 evilfatsh1t wrote:
actually this brings up another point that i think is a misconception now in esports; that the retirement age of esports athletes is in the early to mid twenties.
this was the predominant view for quite a while and is now becoming a hot topic in some genres like lol, dota or cs, where we are seeing now that there are veterans approaching their late twenties or even thirties and are still playing.
in hindsight i think the reason people presumed esports had an early retirement age was precisely because the og starcraft pros were so great and they stopped competing at that age, but imo there seems to be more evidence now that people are more than capable of competing at the highest level even in their 30s. that would mean that the og pros were actually forced into retirement early because they got gapped harder and faster by the new generation than any other generation of players in any other esports title. wasn't it more because military service was effectively the death sentence of a korean player's career?
well that too. but at some point it became a soft rule in the esports industry that there was some age cap set around the mid twenties which, when you hit it, you go on a decline. the rule applied to everyone; people who didnt go to military yet, foreigners, etc.
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Norway28788 Posts
Can't it largely be that now, esports is a serious, respectable and potentially highly profitable career, while in the early 2000s it mostly wasn't, and by the time people hit their mid 20s they were expecting to have moved on to something more adult? If SC2 had been released two years earlier I would've given programing a shot but I was 25 when it was released and had just started my teacher's education. Doesn't really apply to boxer or nada but outside Korea and presumably for the Koreans who weren't the absolute best I think that was a major factor.
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On November 15 2022 15:24 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Can't it largely be that now, esports is a serious, respectable and potentially highly profitable career, while in the early 2000s it mostly wasn't, and by the time people hit their mid 20s they were expecting to have moved on to something more adult? If SC2 had been released two years earlier I would've given programing a shot but I was 25 when it was released and had just started my teacher's education. Doesn't really apply to boxer or nada but outside Korea and presumably for the Koreans who weren't the absolute best I think that was a major factor.
i agree this would be a concern for the lower level pros, but for these guys the matter of an 'aging-curve' is pretty irrelevant because they were never at the top even in their prime ages. if youre not good enough to compete at all, no matter what the age, then obviously a decision about a career change has to be made.
for the top tier og's though, they were making at least 100k a year in the early 2000's, which is an absolutely insane amount of money for the time they were in (3x the average employee at a chaebol). theres a clear incentive for them to continue competing, but they became obsolete unnaturally fast if we compare it to veteran pros in other titles now.
i dunno, for me this just seems like a testament to how great the entire new generation of pros were, not just tbls. a new generation that really benefited from better infrastructure at a younger age and had the passion to grind appeared in a matter of few years and raised the skill ceiling to heights that the OGs couldnt even think of competing against. it wasnt a slow transition at all; in fact now if you look at the history of esports across all the really big titles, its an anomaly. so in a discussion about all-time "greats", i wouldnt be able to justify having an og pro anywhere near the top.
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Nada has 1 more MSL win than JD which gives him an edge in pure Starleague count. But when you look at competition and just pure skill and power I gotta give it to JD. If Flash didnt exist JD would have had at least 3-4 more titles under his belt during KESPA era. He simply is the second best player ever, only shadowed by peaking at the same time as the greatest player ever (flash). Every other bonjwa was able to peak on their own era.
post-kespa BW he's definitely not the same player any more though :\ . He still has some good games but definitely not a top player like Flash/Bisu/Light/Queen (probably the 4 most consistent players from kespa to post kespa BW? IE they were amazing in kespa days, still amazing now? Whereas a player like mini or rain didnt really peak until post-kespa).
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2. Jaedong
3. Moustach zerg
4. Pirate zerg
5. Oz sucks without me
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Watching VODS from back when JAEDONG was at the peek of his powers leaves no doubt about who takes the nr.2 spot on the podium.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES50864 Posts
On November 16 2022 19:08 Elroi wrote:
2. Jaedong
3. Moustach zerg
4. Pirate zerg
5. Oz sucks without me
man I miss OZsucksballswithoutme, whatever happened to him.
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On November 18 2022 00:00 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2022 19:08 Elroi wrote:
2. Jaedong
3. Moustach zerg
4. Pirate zerg
5. Oz sucks without me man I miss OZsucksballswithoutme, whatever happened to him.
#BringBackZergBong
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France1920 Posts
I put Jaedong, Boxer and NaDa side by side but I have to vote for JD!
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If your choices for best player are five that play X and one that plays Y, the strongest player is the one that plays Y. And we should be asking why there's no contenders that play Z.
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On November 14 2022 20:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Imo you're conflating greatest and best.
Best is like, 'played on the highest skill level'. That list is going to be dominated by contemporary players, unless someone was so god damn good (or they played a sport/game with remarkably little evolution over time) that they're still #1.
Greatest is like, less tangible, because it's more of a 'how dominant was this person when looking at his or her contemporary competition (even factoring in stuff like 'how good was this competition'). The 'best' runner of all time is the person holding the world record - but the greatest runner of all time might be the one who won 3 consecutive olympic golds and set a world record that lasted for 30 years.
Like in football, if people are trying to make a list over 'best players ever', Pele does not have a chance at making that list. Put Pele from the 60s in today's game (not 'imagine Pele with a modern training regimen etc etc) and he's probably not going to get all that far. (Not a knock on Pele at all). The 'best' player of all time is Messi - whereas you can make a legit case - and people do - that Pele might challenge him for the title of 'greatest'.
For Tennis, it just so happens that the top 3 of the previous decade also happens to dominate the overall grand slam ratings, so you can argue that the best of all time are also the greatest.
what?
Pele would destroy messi any day 1v1 skills-wise... Barcelona had a lot to do with Messi being so successfull and well liked..
Pele used both legs, had a crazy head game, amazing dribling skills and was a REAL captain for Santos and Brasil. He was the ultimate hard carry in futbols history.
Messi is prob #3 or #4 best in history... he can get #2 if argentina doesnt shit the bed this WC.
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Northern Ireland26688 Posts
On November 22 2022 05:55 XenOsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 14 2022 20:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Imo you're conflating greatest and best.
Best is like, 'played on the highest skill level'. That list is going to be dominated by contemporary players, unless someone was so god damn good (or they played a sport/game with remarkably little evolution over time) that they're still #1.
Greatest is like, less tangible, because it's more of a 'how dominant was this person when looking at his or her contemporary competition (even factoring in stuff like 'how good was this competition'). The 'best' runner of all time is the person holding the world record - but the greatest runner of all time might be the one who won 3 consecutive olympic golds and set a world record that lasted for 30 years.
Like in football, if people are trying to make a list over 'best players ever', Pele does not have a chance at making that list. Put Pele from the 60s in today's game (not 'imagine Pele with a modern training regimen etc etc) and he's probably not going to get all that far. (Not a knock on Pele at all). The 'best' player of all time is Messi - whereas you can make a legit case - and people do - that Pele might challenge him for the title of 'greatest'.
For Tennis, it just so happens that the top 3 of the previous decade also happens to dominate the overall grand slam ratings, so you can argue that the best of all time are also the greatest. what? Pele would destroy messi any day 1v1 skills-wise... Barcelona had a lot to do with Messi being so successfull and well liked.. Pele used both legs, had a crazy head game, amazing dribling skills and was a REAL captain for Santos and Brasil. He was the ultimate hard carry in futbols history. Messi is prob #3 or #4 best in history... he can get #2 if argentina doesnt shit the bed this WC.
I mean he wasn’t hard carrying. At this juncture few have even seen the majority of Pele’s World Cup games, much less his Santos career
For non-Brazilians his reputation is entirely based on his World Cup exploits and well, those were excellent teams.
Doesn’t mean Pele wasn’t unbelievable but the idea he was carrying any of those Brazilian sides is mental. He was very much the cherry on top of an already appetising cake.
Personally I think judging players by national team exploits is silly anyway, but Messi contributed pretty damn heavily to Argentina making a final, and basically lost any chance one other cycle due to Maradona managing the team horrifically
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Few years ago I was really into old school fútbol shit, I was actively trying to find tapes and full matches of libertadores and wc tournaments of the past... During that time I came to the conclution that Messi as a #10 is better than maradona and worse than Pele.
when Messi used to play as a fake 9, or 9 1/2 that was his best form, cause he was able to abuse his dribling skills and midrange shooting to stomp defenders quite effortlessly for him, even then, he wasnt close to peles ability to shoot from midrange, drible mofos left and right, score head goals, and create unbelievable advantage passes, Pele was kinda like ronaldo nazario + ronaldinho.
Ofc Pele didnt win 3 wc by himself, that would be silly to think of, but I can tell that santos glory days were basically pele+10, also 1970s Brasil was like zomfg crazy talented and Pele was still the best on the team each game...
Pele was stronger, perhaps faster, perhaps more skillfull than Messi... That without taking into consideration the fact that he was the leader of every team that he played on and he actually could score with both legs + head.
That being said, I still think that nada > Pele.
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United Kingdom12032 Posts
1. FanTaSy
2. FlaSh
don't @ me
Serious answer though is probably Jaedong based on overall skill. There's people you could argue as being way more influential to the game and gods of their era like Nada, Oov and Boxer but the skill level was highest when JD was active and doing amazing. Savior is another contender even though he was a scumbag, his wins while wiped from the record were pretty dominating at the time.
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EPT
