Who is the SECOND greatest StarCraft: Brood War player of…

Im sorry, what?

On November 09 2022 02:49 Puosu wrote:
NaDa and its not even close

On November 09 2022 06:44 IntoTheWow wrote:
iloveoov

On November 09 2022 18:03 Liquid`Drone wrote:
'Best' is more possible to objectively characterize, and obviously favors people from later eras. 'Greatest' is subjective and more based around what you feel.

The issue there is, I think fewer people were really around for Boxer's heyday, and his play was much less accessible outside Korea - VOD quality was significantly worse at the time. But I will say that no player ever gave me the same feeling of amazement Boxer did. This happened many times - I'd be watching replays of him, wonder 'okay, so how on earth is he gonna win this one?' and then, 10 minutes later, after several incredibly cost efficient engagements in a row, he'd suddenly have it bagged up.

I still think the best game of Brood War I've ever watched - when factoring in the significance of the game - was Boxer vs DIDI8 from WCG in 2002. Boxer had, much to the surprise of everybody, lost against Josez from peru, as well as Froz from USA, and was sitting at 4-2 in his group. Then, he's playing vs DIDI, tvp on Neo Legacy of Char.

Didi gets a significant early mid game lead, and at one point, he has supply limit protoss with 6 expansions, plenty of money and all the tech and infrastructure, against a 90-something supply terran on three bases. This was before the era of turtling terrans with 3-3 upgrades just holding out until they got a huge army that trounced through everything - and the comeback quite frankly looked impossible. But then, over the next 20 minutes, there were constant engagements going Boxer's way, there was a 2 vulture raid that ended up killing more than 20 probes while being chased by speed zealots, and eventually, gradually, Boxer clawed his way back, and he ended up winning a game lasting more than 50 minutes. This gave us a four-way 5-2 tie, between Boxer, Froz, Didi and Chobo (french guy). (Interestingly, we also had a 4-way 2-5 tie at the bottom - of Androide, Josez, Star)of_Lucky and Adolf. Josez beat Boxer and Didi, but lost every other game.

After barely escaping what would have been the biggest upset of WCG history - Boxer not making it out of the group stage - he then waltzed through the entire bracket, and won the tournament. During his peak, there was a certain inevitability to his play- much like Flash, but also very different, in the sense that Boxer would, in the end, emerge victorious, but that it'd be a hard fought victory that he had to somehow, miraculously make happen. Compared with later players, he was incredibly flawed (early on, you'd occasionally see Boxer float 1500/800 before expanding) - but he'd make magic happen with how he utilized his units.

With Flash, there'd just never be any real doubt. It's certainly more dominant, but to me, less awe-inspiring.

On November 09 2022 01:36 CicadaSC wrote:
I don't think Flash is the best, and post kespa era, while still competitive, should not be taken seriously and disregarded from the conversation.

On November 10 2022 03:25 SpaNiarD wrote:
This was so hard a choice. Even though Boxer was really special and dominant, I believe at their peak JD and Nada were the best (besides Flash ofc)

On November 11 2022 03:39 Zergiica wrote:


savior was so dominant nada looked like a mid tier player when they played. and he was at his peak during that period.

i forgot my favorite - julyzerg <3

On November 11 2022 23:43 Nichy wrote:
Hm... Don't forger Yellow...

On November 13 2022 04:04 Galacsia wrote:
We are talking about the 2nd greatest of all time. It's gotta be a player that is both high skill and has endured for the longest time.

That's obviously Bisu. He was one of the best at bw peak and currently in the ASL era still is one of the strongest players. Had he not lost to Mind in the MSL, he'd be considered a Bonjwa, however he definitely was Bonjwa level dominant.

The bonjwas and Jaedong were strong at their time but afterwards they dwindled. We're not talking who was the most innovative (which Bisu also was) or the 2nd best player at a particular point in time.

On November 14 2022 19:28 TMNT wrote:
No disrespect to the old legends but I don't know how anyone can write off the post-Kespa era as if it didn't exist, while in fact none of Boxer, Nada, Oov, July, Savior,... even competed/was able to compete in this era.

Flash the God himself even said that his Kespa version would lose to his modern version due to the fully developed meta nowadays. In other words, the old legends couldn't keep up with the demand of modern competitive BW.

Take Nada for example. He couldn't even qualify for ASL when he was at the same age as Bisu now - the latter still a top 8 player at the moment.

Imo the old legends should belong to a group called most influential or most talented players, they are nowhere near the greatest or the best.

Like in tennis the GOAT is either Federer/Nadal/Djokovic - not the guy who invented the backhand or something like that.

On November 14 2022 21:30 evilfatsh1t wrote:
actually this brings up another point that i think is a misconception now in esports; that the retirement age of esports athletes is in the early to mid twenties.
this was the predominant view for quite a while and is now becoming a hot topic in some genres like lol, dota or cs, where we are seeing now that there are veterans approaching their late twenties or even thirties and are still playing.
in hindsight i think the reason people presumed esports had an early retirement age was precisely because the og starcraft pros were so great and they stopped competing at that age, but imo there seems to be more evidence now that people are more than capable of competing at the highest level even in their 30s. that would mean that the og pros were actually forced into retirement early because they got gapped harder and faster by the new generation than any other generation of players in any other esports title.

On November 16 2022 19:08 Elroi wrote:
2. Jaedong
3. Moustach zerg
4. Pirate zerg
5. Oz sucks without me

On November 14 2022 20:06 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Imo you're conflating greatest and best.

Best is like, 'played on the highest skill level'. That list is going to be dominated by contemporary players, unless someone was so god damn good (or they played a sport/game with remarkably little evolution over time) that they're still #1.
Greatest is like, less tangible, because it's more of a 'how dominant was this person when looking at his or her contemporary competition (even factoring in stuff like 'how good was this competition'). The 'best' runner of all time is the person holding the world record - but the greatest runner of all time might be the one who won 3 consecutive olympic golds and set a world record that lasted for 30 years.

Like in football, if people are trying to make a list over 'best players ever', Pele does not have a chance at making that list. Put Pele from the 60s in today's game (not 'imagine Pele with a modern training regimen etc etc) and he's probably not going to get all that far. (Not a knock on Pele at all). The 'best' player of all time is Messi - whereas you can make a legit case - and people do - that Pele might challenge him for the title of 'greatest'.

For Tennis, it just so happens that the top 3 of the previous decade also happens to dominate the overall grand slam ratings, so you can argue that the best of all time are also the greatest.