EPTI don't think Protoss is the worst race - Page 2
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Highgamer
1407 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50118 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4188 Posts
On July 12 2022 01:41 Kare wrote: Hardest race to play: 1.Terran 2. Zerg 3. Protoss Best race if played close to perfection: 1. Zerg 2. Terran 3. Protoss My opinion what he said ^ | ||
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Poegim
Poland264 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/s3q9ftO.png) | ||
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Piste
6175 Posts
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
Maps Why even bother with statements without looking at maps. That is precisely the reason why any "general" statement regarding balance is useless. You simply can not say T>Z>P. Or Terrans are more succesfull than Zergs and Protoss ect.. ect.. ect.. The only thing Id be willing to agree on OVERALL without map balance stuff is that Protoss is the easiest to learn and has the lowest skill ceiling whereas Terran and Zerg are the hardest to learn and masters with the highest skill ceiling. But that statement tells us nothing else than what it says. One more thing that also clearly make any comparisons in terms of "RACE BALANCE" extremely tough is this: We simply do not know how good (lets say the top10) of each Race in particular is. It could be that for 8 years the best 5 terrans simply are better than the best 5 protosses. So you can never just assume that Terran is "broken" or imbalanced. It simply could be that those particular TOP5 Terran players are just BETTER than the Top5 Protoss players. Actually it probably would be easier to look a massive overall population stats and come to conclusions. But that is not helpful as well because the skill range will be between D to S+ and this also skews things. TL;DR: Talking about BALANCE of the RACES without including MAPS and a certain timeframe/map pool (ect..) is a waste of time. It does NOT MAKE ANY SENSE <3 | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
Sure, it belongs to style of player who likes how play/enjoy their games @Puosu Protoss has units to beat Terran and Zerg. PvT, Protoss has Arbiter/High Templar/Carrier, of course Zealot and Dragoon. PvZ, Protoss' units even are very good. I think StarCraft is perfect balance game. Terran is passive in TvP, active in TvZ. Protoss is passive in PvZ, active in PvT. Zerg is passive in ZvT, active in ZvP. Personally, I am Terran (C rank), my TvZ is 1-2% winrate in 100 games latest. I did everything but I can't win D-B Zerg, Zerg is just sure win from all build order, maps, apm, knowledge, take advantage or get disadvantage... I remember a game, Zerg took 4 pool, only killed 1 my scv. After 15 minutes, Zerg has 5 bases and I still sit in my base (1 base) but I has 1500-1600 mmr, I don't think I am noob. I just think I lose TvZ so much because my skill is so bad in TvZ. It's so hard to micro to defend from 9 pool, mass lings early game, lurker rush... Anyway, 20 years history of StarCraft, there is not much elite players (T, P, Z), I think, maybe we will have some good Protoss players who have enough skill to beat Terran, Zerg in the finals. Another reason, it's usually a player good at specific matchup and bad at the others matchup. Example, Mini, Bisu (P) is good at PvZ, bad at PvT. Larva (Z) is good at ZvP, bad at ZvT... When you reviewed all games in a league, you can know why champion won in the final (except Flash). | ||
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G5
United States2898 Posts
On July 11 2022 21:49 BisuDagger wrote: In the ASL specifically, Protoss won when the maps were Protoss favored. ASL does a good job saying map balance can be more important then the player pool. See the Rain vs Snow season. I agree with this. Maps are more of a factor than the race itself. The maps truly are the balancing factor. | ||
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whylessness
United States376 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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NoobSkills
United States1598 Posts
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[AS]Rattus
427 Posts
On July 13 2022 02:21 whylessness wrote: i used to hate zerg during the era when queen and soma looked unstoppable in pvz. before queen lost to mini twice in ASL. but i never insulted their skill or called their race broken, etc. some of you are absolutely seething. If you play BW and you don't play toss there is a very high chance you are a salty, excuse searching ragekid. Protoss players in general are just the better human beings. Always have been, always will be. | ||
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BlueStar
Bulgaria1166 Posts
It's all about YOU. The races are just the tool that YOU use. Other than that maps are important. Balance whiners should be muted in the forums. It's over 20 years after the last balance patch. Get over it and start learning to play ffs. | ||
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prosatan
Romania8007 Posts
On July 13 2022 15:43 BlueStar wrote: I think all balance discussions under the BW forum should be deleted and banned. It's complete nonsense and there is always someone trying to bring something to the table, while having no idea how to play properly. It's all about YOU. The races are just the tool that YOU use. Other than that maps are important. Balance whiners should be muted in the forums. It's over 20 years after the last balance patch. Get over it and start learning to play ffs. Agree 100% ! I never understood the discussion about this topic. If you think zerg is better then pick zerg as your main race. Or terran or protoss. You are free to choose whatever you like... | ||
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bovienchien
Vietnam1152 Posts
I don't think so, Rain (P) vs Snow (P) in ASL 5 because they played better than the others players. ASL 5 has 4 maps: Sparkle Transistor Gladiator Third World.  AfreecaTV StarCraft League Remastered/5Theory: Sparkle and Third World favors P, Transistor favors Z, Gladiator favors T but Third World just was used from round of 16. That means, players have 3 maps favor 3 race at round 24. This season, T players were so bad from round of 24 (10P, 7T, 7Z) to round of 16 (7P, 2T, 7Z). At round of 16 (7P, 2T, 7Z) with 2 maps favors P went to round of 8 (4P, 2T, 2Z). P was disqualified 3 players, Z was disqualified 5 players, T was disqualified 0 player. What did you see? When there are 3 balance maps, T was disqualified 5 players, P was disqualified 4 players. When there are 2/4 maps favor P, T was disqualified 0 player, P was disqualified 3 players. What a balance map you said? AfreecaTV StarCraft League Brood War/2ASL 2 has 4 maps: Benzene, Circuit Breaker, Eye of the Storm, Demian Theory: Circuit Breaker, Eye of the Storm, Demian favor T, and Benzene favors T too statistically. What a season with all maps favor Terran. Sure the final: Flash (T) vs Sea (T) But do you know round of 8: 4P, 2T, 2Z? Why 4P (Bisu, BeSt, GuemChi, Stork), 2Z (hero, Jaedong) can arrived a season that has all maps favor Terran? But do you know 2 match semi-final: Best, Jaedong almost won with similar 2-3 (Best vs Sea; Jaedong vs Flash). In turning point of the match, both they decided wrong, if they had played again, they would have crossed their opponents and the final would be Best (P) vs Jaedong (Z) in a season with all maps favor Terran. Anyway, Best 2-3 Sea, Jaedong 2-3 Flash. It's not 0-3. I think you can check yourself ASL 10 with Soma (Z) vs ZerO (Z) in the final. It must be ASL 10 has so much maps favor Zerg, huh. Maps just look like nicknames on ladder. You can change map/nickname but you can't change your skill, and you can't change result a BO5 by maps. | ||
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TMNT
2701 Posts
On July 13 2022 15:43 BlueStar wrote: I think all balance discussions under the BW forum should be deleted and banned. It's complete nonsense and there is always someone trying to bring something to the table, while having no idea how to play properly. It's all about YOU. The races are just the tool that YOU use. Other than that maps are important. Balance whiners should be muted in the forums. It's over 20 years after the last balance patch. Get over it and start learning to play ffs. No, the kind of post like yours should be banned instead. Any discussion, as long as it doesn't descend into chaos and insult, is worthwhile. That is what forums are for. Every time a thread like this appears, there are people like you who come and be like "this is nonsense, stop whining, get good". Well, I haven't seen any whining in this thread. If anything, people are discussing balance at the highest level, not complaining about their own experiences of the game. So why are you telling them to learn to play? It's like we were saying the Ballon d'Or favors strikers rather than defenders and goalkeepers, and you came in and tell everyone to learn to play as strikers??? The only nonsense comes from you. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28659 Posts
On July 12 2022 08:18 TMNT wrote: This blog is such a gem. I am so in agreement with the following statement : I was thinking the same about Protoss before, and then I saw a few team melee games between Bisu+Best vs Light+Rush, and man oh man did the Protoss team totally destroy Terran. The thing is, the Terran army during a fight always gets some sort of value even if you set your units up badly. If Protoss units are in range, they fire. Same thing can't be said for Protoss: + Dragoons hitting Depots or a floating Barrack. + Zealots getting on top of each other, and worse, eating a mine together. + High Templars evaporating before casting any storms + Shuttles dying mid-air because frankly, by the time you have the time to grab them they're already dead. All of the above examples can be mitigated by a great player but only to some extent. Chances are, if you are able to finish sorting out the targeting of your ground army, your Shuttles are likely on auto pilot and you won't be able to cast all the storms you'd like. But if you have two or three players controlling the same battle. The extra values Protoss can get is huge. Same thing can be said for PvZ. No more scouting Probe dying early. No more High Templar full of energy dying before storm can get off. No more Corsair wasting. Obviously Terran and Zerg can benefit a lot from team melee as well. But I feel like the extra values are nowhere near Protoss'. I think zerg and terran both benefit a lot more from team melee in tvz/zvt than they do in tvp / zvp. In particular in tvp, terran's opportunity for harassment are really limited by how well protoss defends, and terran isn't able to really do anything if protoss doesn't leave any opening. Pvt is kiinda the same, except that shuttle+reaver combo is much more capable of exploiting the tiniest holes. Tvz/zvt however you'll see resource banks, unused defiler and vessel energy, miscontrolled scourge, big piles of units standing around, all that kind of stuff where team melee would visibly impact the performance. Whereas watching the best players play TvP there's just not all that much room for improvement in the first place. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4070 Posts
Bisu achieved a PvZ winrate of 71.51% which is greater than that of Flash's 69.7% in TvP (the historically worst matchup for terran), and only slightly behind Flash's TvZ winrate of 72%, with both players having played a similar number of games. Bisu also had a 9-5 record against Jaedong (which is of course a small sample), while Flash achieved 20-20. This even though Jaedong had a better record against protoss with 67.38% compared to 63% vs terran. Furthermore, Bisu's best matchup has always clearly been PvZ, which puts a big question mark on the claim of racial imbalance. These three players are typically considered the best of their respective race, and it's quite clear that their winrates contradict the idea that protoss players have it the worst, even in the allegedly worst matchup of PvZ. I think that protoss players have never figured out what sets Bisu apart so much. He clearly has a far superior understanding of the matchup than anyone else. Why can't other protoss players study his game and apply their findings? I think that's the real question that needs to be asked. It's like the answer is right there in front of people, but they're not picking it up. We have hundreds of vods of Bisu playing PvZ that can be studied. Instead people resort to complaining about balance, which is the lazy option. | ||
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TMNT
2701 Posts
On July 14 2022 00:52 Magic Powers wrote: PvZ is really the only matchup that was ever considered disadvantageous for protoss. But there are examples contradicting this view. Bisu achieved a PvZ winrate of 71.51% which is greater than that of Flash's 69.7% in TvP (the historically worst matchup for terran), and only slightly behind Flash's TvZ winrate of 72%, with both players having played a similar number of games. Bisu also had a 9-5 record against Jaedong (which is of course a small sample), while Flash achieved 20-20. This even though Jaedong had a better record against protoss with 67.38% compared to 63% vs terran. Aren't these records from way back to the Kespa era, and only counted from official matches? Bisu and Jaedong certainly played more than 14 matches in their career. Anyway, map and meta have changed dramatically since then. Players rise and fall as well. Bisu is not that dominant against Zerg anymore. And Jaedong is not even top 3 Zerg. I don't think these records mean much nowadays. We need to look at modern data. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4070 Posts
On July 14 2022 01:20 TMNT wrote: Aren't these records from way back to the Kespa era, and only counted from official matches? Bisu and Jaedong certainly played more than 14 matches in their career. Anyway, map and meta have changed dramatically since then. Players rise and fall as well. Bisu is not that dominant against Zerg anymore. And Jaedong is not even top 3 Zerg. I don't think these records mean much nowadays. We need to look at modern data. These records don't mean much today? Well okay, I can't really argue with that. I can only say I completely disagree. | ||
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