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I personally believe that protoss, although ironically, the race that's mainly known for its relatively slower players, is the race that benefits the most from solid mechanics (at least within reasonable bounds of human limitations).
In YGOSU, it is mostly agreed upon that when three or more players are playing on team melee, protoss becomes the strongest race due to the likelihood of strong play-making potential from units such as early game harassment from probes having a single player dedicate all his focus on it, corsairs that never die throughout the entire game versus the zergs, and game changing late-game spellcasters such as arbiters.
Now, I am not talking about poorly co-ordinated team melee combinations, but three strong players dividing their roles in an effective manner. The protoss race is almost perfect for such division of labour in my opinion, and benefit the most from RPG elements that are seen from games such as Warcraft 3. While one player takes reign of macro-management duties, top notch protoss players who have honed their craft can make godly plays when left alone to make heroes out of impactful units like reavers, high templars, and arbiters.
There are no accurate objective assessment of someone's mechanics, but there is an objective measurement that does somewhat correlate to a player's mechanical ability, and that is eAPM. The correlation may not be strong, but it is the best objective measurement we have thus far.
If we have a cut-off point of 210 eAPM for what constitutes a fast player more capable than the average professional player in terms of carrying out more number of tasks in a short span of time, then these are the protoss players I have who have regularly hit eAPM averages above 210 in professional games.
1) Bisu's eAPM range from replays gathered from WCG 2009: 232 ~ 252
2) JangBi's eAPM range from replays gathered from Blizzcon 2008: 202 ~ 219
There are literally nobody else that I know who have regularly hit eAPM figures that these two players hit, and these players also happen to be some of the most successful protoss players of all time.
Do the same for the other two races, even if you raise the bar to take into account the higher average eAPM figures for the players of the zerg and terran races, you find anomalies that don't belong:
Sharp's eAPM from a replay gathered from practice: 258
Terror's eAPM from a replay gathered from practice: 251
Cases of extremely fast players (in terms of eAPM), compared to even the very fastest players, having very unproductive professional careers are way more common for the other two races. I don't think I've ever come across a replay of a protoss player with eAPM figures of over 210 during the professional era of Brood War, yet failed to make any mark on the scene.
One of the reasons why the balance tends to shift towards the protoss race in a team melee setting, even against the zerg race, a match-up that is regarded by many as being the most broken in the current meta-game, is due to the fact that separately managed corsairs and shuttle harassment, that does not negatively influence the pace of the macro-management side of things, is an extremely potent combination.
It is one of the reasons, in my opinion, Bisu separates himself from the other protoss players in the zerg match-up. No other protoss players are capable of making good use of their corsairs while keeping up with the mechanical demands of micro-managing the ground army, maintaining macro-management from multiple bases, and doing harassment with shuttles to keep the zerg from growing out of control.
That means that people currently streaming on AfreecaTV, that plays the protoss race, could be ranked by their eAPM averages, and it would be more accurate indicators of their overall performance than it is for the other two races.
I haven't been a regular follower of the AfreecaTV scene, but the general trend seems to be Bisu as the extreme outlier, and others lagging behind.
Bisu: 267 (in a sponsored match versus herO)
As far as I know of, Bisu still is by far the most mechanically talented protoss player in the scene in terms of eAPM. There are other protoss players who have relatively high figures of eAPM like JangBi, Rain, and Mini, but even these guys struggle to get eAPM numbers anywhere near Bisu. Rain and Mini are doing quite well for themselves recently in terms of results, and I hope after some time, JangBi can recover some of his past skills, because he was the only protoss player that somewhat matched Bisu (I actually thought that JangBi had superior mechanics back then, but I currently believe that to be false) in terms of sheer mechanics during his professional days.
 
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Interesting. How would you respond to the "common wisdom" that Protoss suits low-eapm players the best? True or false?
If true, would that not mean that Protoss suits both low-eapm and high-eapm players the best? Then how would you reconcile that with the fact that Protoss is arguably the least successful race among the progaming elite?
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Before you make this argument, I feel you should also take into account how each race will have different eAPM purely because of their racial differences.
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On August 14 2017 06:23 Jae Zedong wrote:
Interesting. How would you respond to the "common wisdom" that Protoss suits low-eapm players the best? True or false?
If true, would that not mean that Protoss suits both low-eapm and high-eapm players the best? Then how would you reconcile that with the fact that Protoss is arguably the least successful race among the progaming elite?
I think balance works differently at different levels. I don't think the amateur scene replicates the balance found in the professional scene, I don't think the semi-professional scene replicates the balance found in the professional-scene, and I don't even think the professional scene has an even distribution of the races starting from the bottom all the way to the top.
I would always agree that low eAPM players are best suited for protoss. I also believe that once you crank up the mechanics to a super-human level replicated under a team melee setting, protoss players benefit the most due to the abundant RPG element the protoss race has in terms of playmaking units. It is totally possible that if DeepMind created an AI specifically to be the best at winning Brood War games, the balance may change once again.
This is a rough estimation on my part, I am happy if anybody is willing to correct me on my assumptions with some statistics:
Amateur: Protoss (I have a hunch that the total number of protoss players may be the largest)
Semi-professional: Zerg (I have a hunch that the total number of zerg amateur players who managed to gain the semi-professional liscence may be the largest)
Starting team: Terran (It is a fact that terran players have played more games in ProLeague matches more than the other races)
Champion: Terran (It is a fact that terran players have won the most number of individual championships)
Team melee level: Protoss (I have a hunch that properly co-ordinated team melee suits protoss the best after seeing the trio of Bisu, BeSt, and Shuttle wipe the floor with everyone else, and the general discussion about balance issues on team melee on YGOSU)
Super AI: ? (I have a hunch that perfectly micro-managed probes may make the protoss race the strongest, but this is pure speculation on my part)
It is a wild guess on my part which metrics of skill gained switches the racial balance between the three races, but one thing I noted between championship winning players and properly co-ordinated team melee teams was the mechanical aptitude, especially in terms of multi-tasking.
The build orders were not that different, and the constant back-and-forth of information was interesting, but the level of decision making I saw was not that mind-boggling from the limited insight that I have. I didn't see any ridiculously inhumane micro-management, or each unit on the field coming to life in perfect synchrony as if I was seeing a gaint MOBA game. What I did find clear was that the level of multi-tasking was off-the-grid.
A well managed protoss team melee combination would constantly expand, pump units off gate-ways non-stop, while making it a nightmare for the terran team with one player with well managed arbiters. Corsairs would literally constantly be a pain in the zerg team's ass for the entire duration of the game, and the shuttle harassment would cripple the economy of the zerg trying to gain momentum from multiple-bases even if all three players on the zerg side were trying their best to prevent it.
No matter how good a player becomes at multi-tasking, I don't think he'll ever reach that level, but I do believe that superhuman levels of mechanics rewards protoss players the best, and because it is the metric of skill that allows the protoss race to replace the terran race as the most powerful race (in my opinion), it would mean the narrower the gap between the best current players in terms of multi-tasking and mechanical prowess, and the level of mechanics found under a team melee setting, the more powerful the protoss race becomes.
I am not saying the protoss race punishes mechanically deficient players, or that superlative mechanical prowess alone can lead a protoss player to glory (case in point, Bisu). Due to the innate limitations of human beings thinking together as one under a team setting, I don't think we can truly test how a decision making superhuman would change the playing field. The closest we have to that currently is Flash, but I think we would need a super intelligent AI in order to show how truly superlative decision making monstrosity that puts even Flash to shame would influence the racial balance. However, we have already seen the results of superhuman multi-tasking that makes Bisu's forte look somewhat commonplace affecting balance between the races.
Bisu is probably one of the all time greatest player in terms of sheer multi-tasking prowess, if not the absolute best, he is the closest player we have in terms of the monstrous abilities the protoss race has under a team melee setting. I believe that there is a certain point at which where all decision making in the world cannot stop you from being run over by a multi-tasking protoss wrecking ball. The world has yet to see a single player do it, and I believe it explains how Bisu, for all his flaws, has captivated so many people's imaginations, because he was the only player in history to coming close to unleashing the potential of a protoss god (against the zerg race, when he is on-form).
So when I'm talking about mechanical ability affecting the different races, I was purely focused on its ability in the confines of creating the next bonjwa, the player who will raise the bar, and disrupt the current balance as it is. Even if we have a mechanical god of zerg that puts Jaedong to shame, or mechanical deity that makes Flash look like an amputee trying out his luck, I don't think it will bring about as much change as the perfect protoss player with mechanical powers out of this world.
Hope I made things a little clearer.
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On August 14 2017 06:56 sabas123 wrote:
Before you make this argument, I feel you should also take into account how each race will have different eAPM purely because of their racial differences.
I'll just rank the top ten eAPM figures I've seen, or heard about, since verified figures with proof are a total bitch to search for, and screenshots on Korean communities can't be posted on this site as images.
Terran
1. 271 eAPM: HiyA from an unverified game
2. 269 eAPM: Light versus GGPlay from an unverified game (practice match?) circa 2008
3. 263 eAPM: Flash versus Larva during one of AfreecaTV streams circa 2017
4. 259 eAPM: HiyA from an unverified game
5. 258 eAPM: Sharp versus July from an unverified game
6. 258 eAPM: unverified figure from NaDa
7. 251 eAPM: Flash versus Jaedong from an unverified game (practice match?) circa 2007
8. 251 eAPM: Light versus Jaedong from an unverified game
9. 250 eAPM: Flash versus ZerO from an unverified AfreecaTV stream game
10. 250 eAPM: Idra versus ToSic from an unverified game circa 2009
Zerg
1. 268 eAPM: Jaedong versus Bisu from WCG 2009
2. 260 eAPM: unverified figure from Jaedong
3. 259 eAPM: Jaedong verus BeSt from an unverified AfreecaTV stream game
4. 258 eAPM: Jaedong versus PianO from an unverified AfreecaTV stream game
5. 254 eAPM: Jaedong versus Memory from Seoul 2007 e-Sports Festival
6. 251 eAPM: Terror versus Mind from an unverified game
7. 249 eAPM: Jaedong versus Bisu from an unverified AfreecaTV stream game
8. 243 eAPM: unverified figure from soO
9. 241 eAPM: Jaedong versus Bisu from WCG 2009
10. 241 eAPM: Jaedong versus Mind from an unverified game circa 2008
Protoss
1. 267 eAPM: Bisu versus herO during one of AfreecaTV streams circa 2016
2. 261 eAPM: JangBi versus Larva during one of AfreecaTV streams circa 2017
3. 253 eAPM: Bisu versus Larva from an unverified AfreecaTV stream game
4. 252 eAPM: Bisu versus Jaedong from WCG 2009
5. 248 eAPM: Bisu versus Larva from an unverified AfreecaTV stream game
6. 247 eAPM: Bisu versus Effort from 2016 Sino-Korean Brood War Carnival
7. 245 eAPM: Bisu versus Jaedong from WCG 2009
8. 245 eAPM: Bisu versus Jaedong from an unverified AfreecaTV stream game
9. 244 eAPM: Bisu versus Flash from 2016 Sino-Korean Brood War Carnival
10. 244 eAPM: Bisu versus Larva from an unverified AfreecaTV stream game
There are only a handful of replays or screenshots of professional Brood War players achieving an eAPM figure in the excess of 240. As far as know of, there are zero terran players who had leaked replays with an eAPM over 240, from a competitive (mostly third party international tournaments) setting. Jaedong, and Bisu both had leaked replays, mostly from tournaments held in China, of games that had insanely high eAPM figures.
The list of terran players who had an eAPM over 240:
1. HiyA
2. Light
3. Flash
4. Sharp
5. NaDa: unverified
6. Idra
7. Mind
8. By.Sun: unverified
The list of zerg players who had an eAPM over 240:
1. Jaedong: in a competitive setting
2. Terror
3. soO: unverified
The list of protoss players who had an eAPM over 240:
1. Bisu: in a competitive setting
2. JangBi
I won't list the players who had an eAPM surpassing 210 to 239, because after searching around for eAPM figures and replays, it seems most of the people who are listed have their numbers remembered partly because they were fast, but partly because people cared enough to remember their eAPM figures. There must be a lot of terran and zerg players with high eAPM numbers, but have been forgotten by the fans, never streamed their games on AfreecaTV, as well as being not lucky enough to be invited to international tournaments to have their replays leaked in communities.
It was difficult to find records of protoss players who exceeded eAPM over 200. I could only find records of Bisu (252), JangBi (219), and Kal (201) in a competitive setting. Rain, and Mini had games streamed on AfreecaTV that had eAPM figures over 200 as well.
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Interesting thread. Protoss doesn't certainly feel more mechanically demanding than terran but you make a great point saying protoss has the most units that require intense babysitting through the whole game.
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Great post! I love reading arguments like this- not just about starcraft, about anything- where people take conventional wisdom, flip it backwards, and actually back it up with decent logic.
Having said that, I feel like this:
(at least within reasonable bounds of human limitations)
is being abused a bit. Playing team melee isn't really within reasonable human limitations, it's a totally different game, almost closer to the hypothetical super AI.
No human can afford baby a shuttle nonstop, not even Bisu. We all know that starcraft is about mechanics and human limitations more than pure theorycraft. Maybe it just means that Protoss is the race best suited for team melee?
(But what if you had like 12 people on a team melee to manage individual zerglings or scvs...?)
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On August 15 2017 13:26 Luddite wrote:Great post! I love reading arguments like this- not just about starcraft, about anything- where people take conventional wisdom, flip it backwards, and actually back it up with decent logic. Having said that, I feel like this: is being abused a bit. Playing team melee isn't really within reasonable human limitations, it's a totally different game, almost closer to the hypothetical super AI. No human can afford baby a shuttle nonstop, not even Bisu. We all know that starcraft is about mechanics and human limitations more than pure theorycraft. Maybe it just means that Protoss is the race best suited for team melee? (But what if you had like 12 people on a team melee to manage individual zerglings or scvs...?)
This is not a well constructed thesis, so bear with me here.
1) It is likely that rewards for mechanical aptitude must be far greater for protoss under a team melee setting, which explains the drastic shift in balance.
2) Although the difference the current pinnacle individual mechanical prowess, and the mechanical abilities seen under a team melee setting is indeed vast, I do not believe that mechanical abilities are only more heavily rewarded for the protoss race only at that superhuman level.
3) I mentioned human limitations, because I did not want to discuss how racial balance would work out once it gets to a ridiculously proficient level with each unit coming to life under the control of an extremely competent artificial intelligence that maximizes the DPS of each single unit on the screen. I also did not want to discuss how taxing, or punishing each of the races are for amateur players.
4) Although eAPM records are extremely fragmented at best, it does seem that it is easier to name instances of terran, or zerg players struggling to find success despite having a high eAPM. Almost every protoss player known for their high eAPM numbers such as Bisu, JangBi, Kal, Rain, and Mini are all notable names within their race, while it was harder for me to find a correlation between eAPM and overall aptitude at the game for the other two races. I think even at current levels of mechanical excellence, it may be possible that the protoss race benefits the most from extreme mechanical proficiency.
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Germany3128 Posts
Love your posts  Keep it up!
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On August 14 2017 11:22 Letmelose wrote:
Team melee level: Protoss (I have a hunch that properly co-ordinated team melee suits protoss the best after seeing the trio of Bisu, BeSt, and Shuttle wipe the floor with everyone else, and the general discussion about balance issues on team melee on YGOSU)
vod link?, can't seem to find it
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You need higher apm as Protoss than any other race.
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On August 17 2017 07:29 -{Cake}- wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2017 11:22 Letmelose wrote:
Team melee level: Protoss (I have a hunch that properly co-ordinated team melee suits protoss the best after seeing the trio of Bisu, BeSt, and Shuttle wipe the floor with everyone else, and the general discussion about balance issues on team melee on YGOSU)
vod link?, can't seem to find it
It was mostly played in 2016, when people were curious to find about the outcome of "superstar teams" of their respective races facing off against one another. After their curiosities were satified (the results were evidently in favour of the protoss race in all match-ups), sponsored matches for expensive combinations of players under a team melee setting became more and more scarce.
The protoss superstar combination of Bisu, BeSt, and Shuttle didn't pay much attention to their youtube channels back then, so this game recorded by Flash (his team consisted of Last, Mind, and himself) will have to do for now.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Really interesting that Idra is up there.
Thanks for the information, it's fun to read this!
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Japan11285 Posts
In addition to this interesting read, thanks for sharing that VOD!
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 14 2017 11:22 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2017 06:23 Jae Zedong wrote:
Interesting. How would you respond to the "common wisdom" that Protoss suits low-eapm players the best? True or false?
If true, would that not mean that Protoss suits both low-eapm and high-eapm players the best? Then how would you reconcile that with the fact that Protoss is arguably the least successful race among the progaming elite? I think balance works differently at different levels. I don't think the amateur scene replicates the balance found in the professional scene, I don't think the semi-professional scene replicates the balance found in the professional-scene, and I don't even think the professional scene has an even distribution of the races starting from the bottom all the way to the top. I would always agree that low eAPM players are best suited for protoss. I also believe that once you crank up the mechanics to a super-human level replicated under a team melee setting, protoss players benefit the most due to the abundant RPG element the protoss race has in terms of playmaking units. It is totally possible that if DeepMind created an AI specifically to be the best at winning Brood War games, the balance may change once again. This is a rough estimation on my part, I am happy if anybody is willing to correct me on my assumptions with some statistics: Amateur: Protoss (I have a hunch that the total number of protoss players may be the largest)
Semi-professional: Zerg (I have a hunch that the total number of zerg amateur players who managed to gain the semi-professional liscence may be the largest)
Starting team: Terran (It is a fact that terran players have played more games in ProLeague matches more than the other races)
Champion: Terran (It is a fact that terran players have won the most number of individual championships)
Team melee level: Protoss (I have a hunch that properly co-ordinated team melee suits protoss the best after seeing the trio of Bisu, BeSt, and Shuttle wipe the floor with everyone else, and the general discussion about balance issues on team melee on YGOSU)
Super AI: ? (I have a hunch that perfectly micro-managed probes may make the protoss race the strongest, but this is pure speculation on my part)It is a wild guess on my part which metrics of skill gained switches the racial balance between the three races, but one thing I noted between championship winning players and properly co-ordinated team melee teams was the mechanical aptitude, especially in terms of multi-tasking. The build orders were not that different, and the constant back-and-forth of information was interesting, but the level of decision making I saw was not that mind-boggling from the limited insight that I have. I didn't see any ridiculously inhumane micro-management, or each unit on the field coming to life in perfect synchrony as if I was seeing a gaint MOBA game. What I did find clear was that the level of multi-tasking was off-the-grid. A well managed protoss team melee combination would constantly expand, pump units off gate-ways non-stop, while making it a nightmare for the terran team with one player with well managed arbiters. Corsairs would literally constantly be a pain in the zerg team's ass for the entire duration of the game, and the shuttle harassment would cripple the economy of the zerg trying to gain momentum from multiple-bases even if all three players on the zerg side were trying their best to prevent it. No matter how good a player becomes at multi-tasking, I don't think he'll ever reach that level, but I do believe that superhuman levels of mechanics rewards protoss players the best, and because it is the metric of skill that allows the protoss race to replace the terran race as the most powerful race (in my opinion), it would mean the narrower the gap between the best current players in terms of multi-tasking and mechanical prowess, and the level of mechanics found under a team melee setting, the more powerful the protoss race becomes. I am not saying the protoss race punishes mechanically deficient players, or that superlative mechanical prowess alone can lead a protoss player to glory (case in point, Bisu). Due to the innate limitations of human beings thinking together as one under a team setting, I don't think we can truly test how a decision making superhuman would change the playing field. The closest we have to that currently is Flash, but I think we would need a super intelligent AI in order to show how truly superlative decision making monstrosity that puts even Flash to shame would influence the racial balance. However, we have already seen the results of superhuman multi-tasking that makes Bisu's forte look somewhat commonplace affecting balance between the races. Bisu is probably one of the all time greatest player in terms of sheer multi-tasking prowess, if not the absolute best, he is the closest player we have in terms of the monstrous abilities the protoss race has under a team melee setting. I believe that there is a certain point at which where all decision making in the world cannot stop you from being run over by a multi-tasking protoss wrecking ball. The world has yet to see a single player do it, and I believe it explains how Bisu, for all his flaws, has captivated so many people's imaginations, because he was the only player in history to coming close to unleashing the potential of a protoss god (against the zerg race, when he is on-form). So when I'm talking about mechanical ability affecting the different races, I was purely focused on its ability in the confines of creating the next bonjwa, the player who will raise the bar, and disrupt the current balance as it is. Even if we have a mechanical god of zerg that puts Jaedong to shame, or mechanical deity that makes Flash look like an amputee trying out his luck, I don't think it will bring about as much change as the perfect protoss player with mechanical powers out of this world. Hope I made things a little clearer.
Thanks for the clarification, really interesting stuff.
One unit that has always struck me as the most limited by human ability, in terms of total potential impact, is the vulture. You've got a super fast, triple mine laying menace for 75 minerals that can kill infinity workers, zerglings and zealots with it's normal attack alone. Not to mention the possibility of laying crippling minefields non-stop on the most efficient locations on a scale of efficiency not even progamers can come close to.
I think you're right that protoss benefits the most from team melee, but the single individual unit with the highest utility cap may be the vulture. But to even approach 100% utility of vultures may be outside the realm of even team melee and only doable by AI, so it may not be relevant to this discussion.
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User was banned for this post.
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We played plenty of team melee games (2v2, 3v3+helpers) back in the day, our experience was that having more hands was the most beneficial for Terran followed by Zerg.
In PvT sure you can reaver drop, strom drop, clear mines at 2 places at once, etc. but the Terran team has it`s options too: to harass with multiple dropships, lay mines, lay traps, make little killing zones, with ds+tanks and mass mines, defend against harass, etc. The altered population limit can`t be considered a huge advantage either for Protoss, because it effects Terran just as much, I`ve seen ~270 Protoss armies can melt under the shots of 30-40- tanks.
ZvT was quite hard, even if someone just feds the defilers, it`s hard to make your units cost effective. As Terran you can defend vs scourge just as good if not better, the drops are more effective, you can use restoration on vessels, the mech-switch can become all powerful, etc.
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On December 17 2017 00:09 noname_ wrote:
We played plenty of team melee games (2v2, 3v3+helpers) back in the day, our experience was that having more hands was the most beneficial for Terran followed by Zerg.
In PvT sure you can reaver drop, strom drop, clear mines at 2 places at once, etc. but the Terran team has it`s options too: to harass with multiple dropships, lay mines, lay traps, make little killing zones, with ds+tanks and mass mines, defend against harass, etc. The altered population limit can`t be considered a huge advantage either for Protoss, because it effects Terran just as much, I`ve seen ~270 Protoss armies can melt under the shots of 30-40- tanks.
ZvT was quite hard, even if someone just feds the defilers, it`s hard to make your units cost effective. As Terran you can defend vs scourge just as good if not better, the drops are more effective, you can use restoration on vessels, the mech-switch can become all powerful, etc.
Of course, balance is affected by skill level. I don't think anybody will claim that protoss is the strongest at the highest levels of competitive play, despite the protoss race having a tendency to overwhelm the other two races at more casual levels of play. Team melee match-ups played at the highest of levels were mostly shown to be quite one-sided in favour of the protoss race. What is the general consensus at the highest level does not always have relevance to what goes on at more casual levels of play, and team melee match-ups were abandoned as a Brood War content mostly due to how one sided the results were for the protoss camp. Streamers aren't too keen on participating in matters that is widely perceived to already have a forgone conclusion.
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What kind of games are you talking about exactly where P was so dominant?
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EPT
