On November 20 2021 07:12 CHEONSOYUN wrote: you're incentivized as a BJ to talk shit and make (non)drama like this for the viewers
i can see why jangbi would want to exit rather than continue streaming
yes exactly my thoughts too. All this trash talk reminds me of pre-game boxing matches just to hype things up. They need to get people to watch after all. And most of all they are talking among friends after having a drink. We all talk shit among friends too.... it is a game about being better than the other guy. Damn even Bobby Fisher trash talked Boris Spassky. Besides, based on my limited knowledge of watching Flash in his own streams, he seems to be a really cool and nice guy.
If Mohammad Ali were born today and he didn't go into boxing, he could definitely be a great rapper
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
I would have to disagree. Top athletes.. top company CEOs.. at the very least a simple majority would be weighted towards having a bigger ego instead of being humble. I would say its very rare to find someone at the top of his field to be extremely humble and not have an ego. You are correct though that there are far too many people who are at the bottom but have far too much ego/confidence. Doesnt mean the ones who are actually good will be humble about it.
i think its perfectly reasonable to assume that people at the top of their respective fields have moderate amounts of humility. i wouldnt even agree having an ego and being humble is mutually exclusive. the reason for that is you simply cannot reach the top unless you have humility because thats how you grow. yes once you reach the top you probably quite rightly have an ego but for the entire journey to the point you reach the top it takes a lot of self reflecting and self assessment. if youre only halfway to the top and you lack humility you wont go any further.
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
I would have to disagree. Top athletes.. top company CEOs.. at the very least a simple majority would be weighted towards having a bigger ego instead of being humble. I would say its very rare to find someone at the top of his field to be extremely humble and not have an ego. You are correct though that there are far too many people who are at the bottom but have far too much ego/confidence. Doesnt mean the ones who are actually good will be humble about it.
Most top athletes who don’t have to market themselves tend to be bloody humble. Not always, there’s going to be variance. Boxing and MMA is full of it, to a pretty tiresome degree tbh, but hype needs to be driven.
Progamers historically have had salaries and have to win games, and do their talking that way. Or other individual sports like tennis, or golf where you don’t tend to have a huge amount of bragging and beef, you’ve got to do your earning by winning.
I think ultimately it’s probably due to the best progamers (or other sportspeople) being aware not just how good they are, but how slim the margins are to other good pros and how good they are and how much work they’re putting in.
It’s a field of direct competition, and results > any amount of bragging or trash talking one can do.
A CEO will have an ego out of whack because they’re sitting atop a much wider machine and be given all the credit for not just their decisions but everything smart done under them. They’re not going 1 on 1 with other CEOs in some contest of CEO skills.
With other industries there’s a selection bias where those who project confidence outwardly tend to get given gigs, without necessarily being more competent than their more humble peers.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
This is the most ridiculous take by far in this thread. Did you just make up some rules on etiquette and common sense based on your fanboyism? Flash is completely justified in doing or saying anything he wants when someone doesn't think he's the goat? What world are we lliving in?
Any Liga defender can say Ronaldo (both), Maradona or Pele is the goat and it's completely fine. You don't see Messi going out there and claiming "I will nutmeg this guy into retirement", do you? Imagine the shit he'd get if Messi actually did something like that lol.
Mind. Sharp asked Jangbi who's the players he respects the most, not who's the goat. It could be that Jangbi thinks "Tesagi", hence he values Bisu and Jaedong more than Flash. But he literally acknowledged in the next sentence that Flash is tough to beat didn't he? What's wrong with that?
Then of course Flash has his rights to disagree with what Jangbi thought. It'd be fine if he just said something like "No. I think you're wrong. It's not because of Tesagi. I'm the best and I will beat you 20-0". But the way he said it, especially when he claimed he'd make Jangbi quit streaming, it shows he just wanted to insult, even harm someone, just for not adoring him. That's cuntish behavior if I'm to be honest.
i never said flash got offended because jangbi didnt say he was the goat. im saying flash got offended because he was disrespected, despite the fact that it is indisputable flash is the goat. also you seem to speak with a lot of confidence about what was said in those vids based off translations. you do realise there are things lost in translation? the original question by sharp to jangbi isnt "which progamers do you respect most", its "which progamers do you acknowledge the most". there is a subtle yet extremely important difference between the two. you can respect players for many reasons unrelated to pure playing ability. you cant acknowledge players that arent objectively good at the game. the question sharp asked can be rephrased to be this "who out of your professional colleagues do you think is really good". jangbi answered "bisu and jaedong" only. sharp asked as a follow up "terran has to be flash right?" to which jangbi says in a weak and reluctant manner ".....yeah". now if youre flash; the undisputed goat of sc, and you see jangbi reluctantly acknowledge you basically as if he name drops you to avoid the pr shitstorm of having excluded you from a list of pros worth acknowledging, no shit youre going to be pissed. its straight up disrespect from a player who, for the most part of his career, was mid tier
Tell you what. Don't even bother with "acknowledge" or "respect". If there existed an official title as "Goat" awarded to Flash, it's still 100% fine for anyone, not just Jangbi, to say he's not the goat.
Look at football. There's literrally the official Ballon d'Or there. I guess after Messi or Ronaldo won it each year, they'd look into the polls and found player X who didn't vote for him, and be like "I will retire you for disrespecting me".
There's your equivalent of this situation. The way you try to rationalize Flash's reaction is laughable.
On November 24 2021 18:38 Timebon3s wrote: When Mike Tyson says he will stomp on your children’s testicles, it’s all good and fun, but when Flash says he will beat JangBi in a computer game, everyone loses their minds
I was actually thinking about this in context/comparison with how Michael Jordan is viewed. (Fyi I havent even seen the Flash video yet) MJ is generally considered goat, and he has a lot of recorded instances when his infamous competitiveness completely shines through.. like trash talking both opponents and teammates. And what’s unique and a consequence of being goat (and a famous and well-loved one at that), a lot of these instances are typically not just ignored but actually celebrated.. because its what makes MJ MJ. Its what it took to win. Its because he’s an assassin/cold-blooded/clutch etc. And its entertaining as hell to listen to these stories. And all this makes for interesting debate imo. Should these guys get a pass for acting this way? If we condone these actions, do we go so far as to view them positively instead of negatively? Going back to MJ trash talking and being hard on his teammates, if a company CEO acted the way MJ did with his teammates, I doubt a lot of people would really praise that CEO for doing what it took to push his company for greatness. If your boss bullied you into giving 100% at your job and spending all your free time at it, you probably wouldnt appreciate it. Granted you arent being paid millions of dollars.. but still.
It’s not good teamwork to badmouth your teammates if they feel bad and perform worse because of it. That makes you a worse player IMO if the result of your actions makes your team perform worse, if that makes any sense.
In individual sports I think it’s perfectly fine. It makes it more appealing to watch, and it can fuck with your opponents self esteem.
On November 24 2021 09:02 XenOsky wrote: if one person in the starcraft universe deserves to be a total asshole to whoever he wants that person is FlaSh...
mofocker is the greatest ever, he can trashtalk all he wants...
Funny you say this, because he got (kinda) trashtalked by Jangbi haha. Having said that, nope, no person deserves to be an asshole to any other even if they are the GOAT.
flash is shit talking based on skill, he is not insulting his mother or smth like that , he is saying hes gonna spon match him 20 games / day... so jangbi retires... imo if a person has the right to act that cocky about his skills in sc, that person is flash and flash only + Show Spoiler +
^ I prefer for players to display their "trashtalk" in game like Jaedong's 5 proxy hatch in FBH's exp or Much's pylon hearts for instance. A bit of back and forth trashtalk between competitors that face off a lot (think FvJ) would be ok, but Jangbi wasn't even trying to trashtalk here. From the translation, it sounded like he just didn't think much of Flash as he did Bisu or Jaedong. Either way, not much else to discuss on this point.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
he kinda isn't allowed? what? Last I checked, there is something called free speech. That aside, it's like I already stated: Jangbi is allowed to say what he likes and you/Flash/random guy can choose to ignore what he said or get mad about it. Jangbi is not obligated to include Flash in any conversation if he doesn't want to or doesn't feel it's necessary.
IMO, Jangbi is free to decide who he believes are the players that are worthy of his respect. I can't speak as to why he chose Jaedong and Bisu. Maybe he always felt pressured against either player, but never felt the same pressure whenever he played Flash. Maybe he secretly believes that Tesagi is true, that Flash didn't work as hard as his zerg/protoss counterparts, or that Flash isn't all he's cracked up to be, having beaten him in Jin Air OSL in macro games? I don't know why he didn't include Flash till Sharp prodded for his opinion there, but I also won't hold it against him either. Likewise, Flash is free to get mad when he heard that Jangbi didn't include him till he got prodded.
There really isn't anything to discuss here. If you still disagree, to each his own.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
This is the most ridiculous take by far in this thread. Did you just make up some rules on etiquette and common sense based on your fanboyism? Flash is completely justified in doing or saying anything he wants when someone doesn't think he's the goat? What world are we lliving in?
Any Liga defender can say Ronaldo (both), Maradona or Pele is the goat and it's completely fine. You don't see Messi going out there and claiming "I will nutmeg this guy into retirement", do you? Imagine the shit he'd get if Messi actually did something like that lol.
Mind. Sharp asked Jangbi who's the players he respects the most, not who's the goat. It could be that Jangbi thinks "Tesagi", hence he values Bisu and Jaedong more than Flash. But he literally acknowledged in the next sentence that Flash is tough to beat didn't he? What's wrong with that?
Then of course Flash has his rights to disagree with what Jangbi thought. It'd be fine if he just said something like "No. I think you're wrong. It's not because of Tesagi. I'm the best and I will beat you 20-0". But the way he said it, especially when he claimed he'd make Jangbi quit streaming, it shows he just wanted to insult, even harm someone, just for not adoring him. That's cuntish behavior if I'm to be honest.
i never said flash got offended because jangbi didnt say he was the goat. im saying flash got offended because he was disrespected, despite the fact that it is indisputable flash is the goat. also you seem to speak with a lot of confidence about what was said in those vids based off translations. you do realise there are things lost in translation? the original question by sharp to jangbi isnt "which progamers do you respect most", its "which progamers do you acknowledge the most". there is a subtle yet extremely important difference between the two. you can respect players for many reasons unrelated to pure playing ability. you cant acknowledge players that arent objectively good at the game. the question sharp asked can be rephrased to be this "who out of your professional colleagues do you think is really good". jangbi answered "bisu and jaedong" only. sharp asked as a follow up "terran has to be flash right?" to which jangbi says in a weak and reluctant manner ".....yeah". now if youre flash; the undisputed goat of sc, and you see jangbi reluctantly acknowledge you basically as if he name drops you to avoid the pr shitstorm of having excluded you from a list of pros worth acknowledging, no shit youre going to be pissed. its straight up disrespect from a player who, for the most part of his career, was mid tier
Tell you what. Don't even bother with "acknowledge" or "respect". If there existed an official title as "Goat" awarded to Flash, it's still 100% fine for anyone, not just Jangbi, to say he's not the goat.
Look at football. There's literrally the official Ballon d'Or there. I guess after Messi or Ronaldo won it each year, they'd look into the polls and found player X who didn't vote for him, and be like "I will retire you for disrespecting me".
There's your equivalent of this situation. The way you try to rationalize Flash's reaction is laughable.
i made the messi/goat analogy because no matter what you think of him you cant deny he is an unbelievable player. even the blindest cr7 fanboys would agree to that. its the exact same case with flash, except his claim to the title of goat is even less ambiguous than football players. again, the issue isnt that jangbi didnt literally call flash the goat. stop fixating on that point. it was an analogy. the real problem is jangbi disrespected flash by not even acknowledging him as a player worth mentioning. use ur fking brain
On November 25 2021 09:08 BigFan wrote: ^ I prefer for players to display their "trashtalk" in game like Jaedong's 5 proxy hatch in FBH's exp or Much's pylon hearts for instance. A bit of back and forth trashtalk between competitors that face off a lot (think FvJ) would be ok, but Jangbi wasn't even trying to trashtalk here. From the translation, it sounded like he just didn't think much of Flash as he did Bisu or Jaedong. Either way, not much else to discuss on this point.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
he kinda isn't allowed? what? Last I checked, there is something called free speech. That aside, it's like I already stated: Jangbi is allowed to say what he likes and you/Flash/random guy can choose to ignore what he said or get mad about it. Jangbi is not obligated to include Flash in any conversation if he doesn't want to or doesn't feel it's necessary.
IMO, Jangbi is free to decide who he believes are the players that are worthy of his respect. I can't speak as to why he chose Jaedong and Bisu. Maybe he always felt pressured against either player, but never felt the same pressure whenever he played Flash. Maybe he secretly believes that Tesagi is true, that Flash didn't work as hard as his zerg/protoss counterparts, or that Flash isn't all he's cracked up to be, having beaten him in Jin Air OSL in macro games? I don't know why he didn't include Flash till Sharp prodded for his opinion there, but I also won't hold it against him either. Likewise, Flash is free to get mad when he heard that Jangbi didn't include him till he got prodded.
There really isn't anything to discuss here. If you still disagree, to each his own.
i didnt think id have to explain that i wasnt implying he literally doesnt have the right to an opinion. my point is that any opinion that excludes flash from receiving the acknowledgement he deserves would be a wrong opinion. jangbi can say whatever he likes, but if his opinion is going to be that flash isnt deserving of 'respect' then he would be wrong and he would quite rightly deserve any backlash he gets from flash himself or anyone else who hears him say such a stupid thing. hence, flash's reaction wasnt unreasonable at all
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
I would have to disagree. Top athletes.. top company CEOs.. at the very least a simple majority would be weighted towards having a bigger ego instead of being humble. I would say its very rare to find someone at the top of his field to be extremely humble and not have an ego. You are correct though that there are far too many people who are at the bottom but have far too much ego/confidence. Doesnt mean the ones who are actually good will be humble about it.
Most top athletes who don’t have to market themselves tend to be bloody humble. Not always, there’s going to be variance. Boxing and MMA is full of it, to a pretty tiresome degree tbh, but hype needs to be driven.
Progamers historically have had salaries and have to win games, and do their talking that way. Or other individual sports like tennis, or golf where you don’t tend to have a huge amount of bragging and beef, you’ve got to do your earning by winning.
I think ultimately it’s probably due to the best progamers (or other sportspeople) being aware not just how good they are, but how slim the margins are to other good pros and how good they are and how much work they’re putting in.
It’s a field of direct competition, and results > any amount of bragging or trash talking one can do.
A CEO will have an ego out of whack because they’re sitting atop a much wider machine and be given all the credit for not just their decisions but everything smart done under them. They’re not going 1 on 1 with other CEOs in some contest of CEO skills.
With other industries there’s a selection bias where those who project confidence outwardly tend to get given gigs, without necessarily being more competent than their more humble peers.
You can be humble and have huge ego? But as a progamer, if you don't have a huge ego, that means you won't think yourself of better than other pros. You can't really win with that mindset.
i made the messi/goat analogy because no matter what you think of him you cant deny he is an unbelievable player. even the blindest cr7 fanboys would agree to that. its the exact same case with flash, except his claim to the title of goat is even less ambiguous than football players. again, the issue isnt that jangbi didnt literally call flash the goat. stop fixating on that point. it was an analogy. the real problem is jangbi disrespected flash by not even acknowledging him as a player worth mentioning. use ur fking brain
You are the one who needs to use your brain bro, instead of channeling your Flash fanboyism all over the place to bend the rule of common sense.
I didn't fixate on the goat point, if you pay any attention. I said even if he was officially the goat, it'd still be fine for Jangbi to not mention him, because in the end it's a matter of personal opinion. Let alone in this case, where the question was "which player do you respect/acknowledge the most", which is a question even more personal oriented.
Plus, by your logic, Stork should be the next one to feel disrespected by Jangbi, since his name didn't come up at all. And let's say Jangbi did mention Stork, then Fantasy probably should feel irritated. The list goes on. Right? Since the question was not about the goat, you can respect/acknowledge as many players as you want, as long as they are "unbelievable" players. I'm sure the list is long and Jangbi disrespected a lot more lol.
You made it out like not mentioning Flash is some kind of violation to a written rule. Was there a Starcraft bible that states everyone should love (and acknowledge) Flash in all situations? Ridiculous.
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
I would have to disagree. Top athletes.. top company CEOs.. at the very least a simple majority would be weighted towards having a bigger ego instead of being humble. I would say its very rare to find someone at the top of his field to be extremely humble and not have an ego. You are correct though that there are far too many people who are at the bottom but have far too much ego/confidence. Doesnt mean the ones who are actually good will be humble about it.
Most top athletes who don’t have to market themselves tend to be bloody humble. Not always, there’s going to be variance. Boxing and MMA is full of it, to a pretty tiresome degree tbh, but hype needs to be driven.
Progamers historically have had salaries and have to win games, and do their talking that way. Or other individual sports like tennis, or golf where you don’t tend to have a huge amount of bragging and beef, you’ve got to do your earning by winning.
I think ultimately it’s probably due to the best progamers (or other sportspeople) being aware not just how good they are, but how slim the margins are to other good pros and how good they are and how much work they’re putting in.
It’s a field of direct competition, and results > any amount of bragging or trash talking one can do.
A CEO will have an ego out of whack because they’re sitting atop a much wider machine and be given all the credit for not just their decisions but everything smart done under them. They’re not going 1 on 1 with other CEOs in some contest of CEO skills.
With other industries there’s a selection bias where those who project confidence outwardly tend to get given gigs, without necessarily being more competent than their more humble peers.
You can be humble and have huge ego? But as a progamer, if you don't have a huge ego, that means you won't think yourself of better than other pros. You can't really win with that mindset.
You don’t have to think you’re better than other pros, you just have to actually be better than other pros.
Perhaps it’s a cultural thing and presentation thing too, a decade plus of player interviews can give the impression that a big chunk of pros always seem to think they weren’t expecting to win half the time, but that could just be playing to a particular crowd and not really reflective of what they actually believe too.
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
Yep, I see it the same way. Jangbi was refusing to give full credit to Flash's skills as the reason for his success, suggesting instead that his playing Terran had something to do with it. Well anyone who's been involved in competition knows how offensive it is when someone attributes your accomplishments to things other than your own ability. Especially when said person was likely only able to win a championship because his team allowed him to play the game more than anyone else. So Flash basically said, if you're truly that good, reproduce that success, rise to top again, and beat me as you said you would. And Jangbi couldn't. So then it's easy to understand why most didn't think much about his win.
The persona of flash I liked and respect is the one where he is humble and not involved in scam-coins. Jangbi has the right to not put flash in his list of most respected players. Not putting flash there does not equate disrespect. Its his views and he has a right to voice them out.
End date of Jin Air OSL (where jangbi beats flash convincingly): Sep 2011 Date of SK Proleague finals (2011-2012) (where Flash was at his peak but lost to Bisu): April 2012
On November 28 2021 05:52 WombaT wrote: Aside from anything else, Jesus imagine having to play 20 games in a row against Flash, that would be brutal!
Would have been epic.. and I wonder if opinions would change if we were given the chance to see how these games would have turned out.. in theory, the outcome should be irrelevant.. if u are okay / have a problem with what jangbi/flash said, that shouldnt change or depend on whether the player is able to back up their talk or not.. but in a world where might is right, that probably wouldnt be the case
Edit: Flash’s KT teammates were infamous for going through stretches of severe slumps.. probably because they had to play xx number of games against Flash on a daily basis.. Hoejja said it best: “If you play 10 games in a day with Flash, you forget how to win a game. You forget how to win! He's that good."
Might as well throw in my 2c as well.. I think whether you have a problem with what jangbi said (and consequently how Flash reacted) depends on how highly you think of Flash. I disagree with the argument that Jangbi is simply entitled to his own opinion. Thats pretty weak. You say something moronic, expect to be called out on it and/or ridiculed. So did Jangbi say something out of line? Not imo. Its key that he named JD/Bisu and did not mention any Terran players. Folks are pointing out tesagi but imo its the opposite. Jangbi is an absolute Terran killer, and he could very well be completely confident in that matchup. In their primes, its very debatable how you’ll rank JD/Bisu/Flash on who has the highest probability of winning against Jangbi. I would personally put JD at the highest.. Bisu and Flash is closer but honestly, i think Bisu is ahead given how monstrous his PvP is. Obviously Flash disagrees and who am I to argue with him Its close enough that I cant really blame him if he took offense.
Maybe Jaedong/Bisu have an intense aura that's more difficult to play against. Psychological reasons why Jangbi would think those 2 are top. Also maybe a generational thing, and a Protoss opinions. Because of the way Flash plays and the Terran style it's very different for example having to play against JD 2hatch muta at his peak or Bisu's sair/dt. Players who storm out of the blocks aggressive and feel impossible mentally to face. Like Fantasy TvP on a good day.
I mean the OSL is prove that Jangbi didn't seem to be psychologically affected by Flash as much as you'd expect (Fantasy on the other hand was so close to breaking him). Flash to me was more impressive because of his consistent play and amazing control and defense. A different style of champion. Maybe Flash lost some of his aura because of the loss to EffOrt as well. I'm not sure of the circumstances of that loss but I recall in proleague Flash would often rely on economic risks and advantages and top notch macro.And when h was matched in that it resulted in a quite disappointing display.
EPT
