Probably wasnt reason why Jangbi quit but this incident gets brought up around here at times as rumor so this is actual source video. Jangbi hasnt been showing that great of result streaming even before this and they said they settled this amicably over dinner and drinks afterwards but this incident has been blamed as contributing factor in korea
Sharp: Hey Jangbi, who is progamer you respect most? Jangbi: During practice, everyone's doable, but if I meet JaeDong or Bisu [during tournament], the game just doesn't play out... During practice it's doable but tournament I lose? Well nothing much to say here Sharp: and with Terran, FlaSh?? Jangbi: Terran? Well Terran... FlaSh is pretty good... Jangbi: Yea he's good, and he's able to survive to point it's ridiculous Sharp: Ah, to point it's ridiculous? Jangbi: Well, whenever I attack Terran, they get busted, but [FlaSh] survives to point it's ridiculous. I don't exactly know why but maybe because it's Terran race? Sharp: (bit taken aback) Ah..haha! Nah.. it's because it's FlaSh that's good not because he's Terran Jangbi: It's because he's good right? Not because it's Terran? Sharp: yea Jangbi: Yea, he can survive when it should be busted. FlaSh has that kind of ability Sharp: It must mean he's good to that point Jangbi: I don't exactly know why though Sharp: Protoss nowadays have hard time in TvP. Last and FlaSh are too good. Jangbi: They have hard time with PvT?? Sharp: honestly, only person to really beat FlaSh in a full set is Jangbi Jangbi: Did we do a full set? Sharp: With Jin air... Jangbi: Oh yea that one time. I think it was set of 3. I think I won 2:1? He was ahead in first game, but I pushed him out. Sharp: When you come back, can you beat every Terran and FlaSh? Jangbi: Of course... I will smack them up good.
That seems like typical trash talk and drunk fun. Nothing to serious and they didn't personally attack Jangbi. So even if people want to believe this caused him to quit, I don't think they were being mean more then ragging on him. I also gotta agree, I have a mental astrix on the last year or two of Kespa like they said. However, I give Jangbi more credit because he did play phenomenally well and his final four and finals games were outstanding.
I dont believe this incident caused Jangbi, or anyone if they're the target, to quit. But I can see from this video how an entitled prick Flash is. The trash talk and drunk fun impression was provided by the other guys: Sea, Terror, Shuttle,... not Flash himself. If anything those guys did Flash a favor by laughing it off.
Anyway who's the guy to the left of Flash? Looks like Hero or Last but I cant tell due to the quality of the video. He was the only one who didn't seem to take any enjoyment out of what Flash was saying the whole time.
On November 19 2021 09:26 TMNT wrote: I dont believe this incident caused Jangbi, or anyone if they're the target, to quit. But I can see from this video how an entitled prick Flash is. The trash talk and drunk fun impression was provided by the other guys: Sea, Terror, Shuttle,... not Flash himself. If anything those guys did Flash a favor by laughing it off.
Anyway who's the guy to the left of Flash? Looks like Hero or Last but I cant tell due to the quality of the video. He was the only one who didn't seem to take any enjoyment out of what Flash was saying the whole time.
yeah its hero. probably the nicest person in that bunch so no surprise.
It's strange seeing flash boasting so openly about his skill, most koreans seem so humble even when they're at the top. The liquor was obviously flowing that night but I find it refreshing to see the ego actually come out like that. I don't personally think jangbi got the results he did because he was the only one focusing on sc:bw but that could be the case.
Would love to see jangbi come back and see what he's capable of vs flash. Does he even play anymore after that coin incident?
Its fun to see pros banter behind the professional scenes, shame we never got to see them duke it out in ASL. Also funny to see what type of drunk pro-gamers are lol.
I think that the video transcript can be interpreted in different ways, FlaSh opted to use the most uncharitable interpretation for this trash talk, but it was drunk hanging out with the boys? Korean netizens are overly dramatic*, it's like no one owns a mirror at home or has no life or memory of some time that they said something they maybe should not have... Also can't shake the feeling that this sentiment was reborn 4 years later just because FlaSh is not in the picture right now due to the whole crypto thing, like falling dominoes.
I strongly doubt that this incident alone is enough to make a person quit; in fact, it could motivate someone to try harder. I think that it is more likely that JangBi was already uncertain about his gaming future and then the "out" presented itself in the form of his parents' business so he took it, which frankly seems like a wise decision given everything that KeSPA progamers have been through and the uncertainty of the future. I hope he is happy, healthy, and successful.
I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
i also wonder if this video is cut off prematurely to stir outrage, maybe one of them did try to defend jangbi and give more credit to his osl wins in the original VOD later
On November 19 2021 12:18 BigFan wrote: I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
Thanks for sharing this!
I have mixed agreements and disagreements with what you said.
The finals and quarter finals of the last OSL still felt like peak BW to me in terms of skill; maybe my perspective as a fan are biased and shitty vs. that of a progamer but I didn't get the impression that anyone involved was not playing at least as well as they were a year prior, at least in the top 8. That last OSL counts.
That being said, in a time if uncertainty, it isn't entirely fair to compare progamers in the dying BW scene to whiners on ladder. Yes, anyone can say they weren't trying, but we have what amounts to testimonial proof even outside of this video about SC2 being prioritized due to Proleague being prioritized during that period. I can easily imagine many players being forced to practice/play SC2 when they didn't want to, for greater team unity and success. Remember hybrid league with SC2 snipers because SC2 got more games than BW?
Now, THAT being said, it still is not okay to shit on JangBi for his win, but I also think that anyone who attaches too much value to this barroom banter is either being hypocritical, overly sensitive, or is just a drama queen. Anyone who thinks JangBi quit over some other progamers talking shit in a drunk stream is basically saying that obstacle was too great to overcome after he became a progamer, OSL champ, and completed military service. Makes no sense.
On November 19 2021 12:25 ggsimida wrote: i also wonder if this video is cut off prematurely to stir outrage, maybe one of them did try to defend jangbi and give more credit to his osl wins in the original VOD later
well this was neox drinking party and this raised shitstorm afterwards as soon as those words came out regardless of what was said afterwards. If anything, more stuff was said in between as Sea was going on about comparing Messi to FlaSh and on
On November 19 2021 12:18 BigFan wrote: I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
Thanks for sharing this!
I have mixed agreements and disagreements with what you said.
The finals and quarter finals of the last OSL still felt like peak BW to me in terms of skill; maybe my perspective as a fan are biased and shitty vs. that of a progamer but I didn't get the impression that anyone involved was not playing at least as well as they were a year prior, at least in the top 8. That last OSL counts.
That being said, in a time if uncertainty, it isn't entirely fair to compare progamers in the dying BW scene to whiners on ladder. Yes, anyone can say they weren't trying, but we have what amounts to testimonial proof even outside of this video about SC2 being prioritized due to Proleague being prioritized during that period. I can easily imagine many players being forced to practice/play SC2 when they didn't want to, for greater team unity and success. Remember hybrid league with SC2 snipers because SC2 got more games than BW?
Now, THAT being said, it still is not okay to shit on JangBi for his win, but I also think that anyone who attaches too much value to this barroom banter is either being hypocritical, overly sensitive, or is just a drama queen. Anyone who thinks JangBi quit over some other progamers talking shit in a drunk stream is basically saying that obstacle was too great to overcome after he became a progamer, OSL champ, and completed military service. Makes no sense.
Jangbi quit streaming about 6 months later and probably other stuff played part. But this incident has been brought up every time Jangbi is mentioned in Korea and the discussion around here has been glimpses from this incident+clip so I translated it for funsies
On November 19 2021 12:25 ggsimida wrote: i also wonder if this video is cut off prematurely to stir outrage, maybe one of them did try to defend jangbi and give more credit to his osl wins in the original VOD later
well this was neox drinking party and this raised shitstorm afterwards as soon as those words came out regardless of what was said afterwards. If anything, more stuff was said in between as Sea was going on about comparing Messi to FlaSh and on
On November 19 2021 12:18 BigFan wrote: I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
Thanks for sharing this!
I have mixed agreements and disagreements with what you said.
The finals and quarter finals of the last OSL still felt like peak BW to me in terms of skill; maybe my perspective as a fan are biased and shitty vs. that of a progamer but I didn't get the impression that anyone involved was not playing at least as well as they were a year prior, at least in the top 8. That last OSL counts.
That being said, in a time if uncertainty, it isn't entirely fair to compare progamers in the dying BW scene to whiners on ladder. Yes, anyone can say they weren't trying, but we have what amounts to testimonial proof even outside of this video about SC2 being prioritized due to Proleague being prioritized during that period. I can easily imagine many players being forced to practice/play SC2 when they didn't want to, for greater team unity and success. Remember hybrid league with SC2 snipers because SC2 got more games than BW?
Now, THAT being said, it still is not okay to shit on JangBi for his win, but I also think that anyone who attaches too much value to this barroom banter is either being hypocritical, overly sensitive, or is just a drama queen. Anyone who thinks JangBi quit over some other progamers talking shit in a drunk stream is basically saying that obstacle was too great to overcome after he became a progamer, OSL champ, and completed military service. Makes no sense.
Jangbi quit streaming about 6 months later and probably other stuff played part. But this incident has been brought up every time Jangbi is mentioned in Korea and the discussion around here has been glimpses from this incident+clip so I translated it for funsies
Not hating on you at all for translating the actual clip Just to be clear.
On November 19 2021 12:18 BigFan wrote: I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
Thanks for sharing this!
your point stands if the players had a choice in what they practiced, but judging from what they said it seems like they didnt. obviously theyre not gonna hold the last tournaments in high esteem if the majority of the professional playerbase wasnt even given the opportunity to practice. if the players are arguing that jangbi won a tournament when it wasnt a level playing field then thats a legitimate point to make.
Flash ego too big to let Jangbi stay as the last OSL champion. "I am the best, everyone should adore me, not this guy. The last OSL doesn't matter because I couldn't practise". That's the impression of Flash i get here, and he is probably right with the arguments, but that doesn't give him permission to shit down on others. But oh well, maybe also because of this mental state he was able to perform the best.
actually fantasys recent interview with snow showed that it was his pride as a professional gamer that prevented him from streaming. he wanted to be held in high esteem and be respected for his profession and wanted the barrier between fans and players to be intact. if he streams then hes instantly friends with his audience and he cant command the respect he wants as a professional and therefore decided against streaming
On November 20 2021 14:22 evilfatsh1t wrote: actually fantasys recent interview with snow showed that it was his pride as a professional gamer that prevented him from streaming. he wanted to be held in high esteem and be respected for his profession and wanted the barrier between fans and players to be intact. if he streams then hes instantly friends with his audience and he cant command the respect he wants as a professional and therefore decided against streaming
Jangbi was better than Flash back when he was at his peak and Flash is still bitter about it. TBH even Fantasy had passed him too. It’s obvs something that hurts his ego to this day.
On November 19 2021 12:18 BigFan wrote: I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
Thanks for sharing this!
That being said, in a time if uncertainty, it isn't entirely fair to compare progamers in the dying BW scene to whiners on ladder. Yes, anyone can say they weren't trying, but we have what amounts to testimonial proof even outside of this video about SC2 being prioritized due to Proleague being prioritized during that period. I can easily imagine many players being forced to practice/play SC2 when they didn't want to, for greater team unity and success. Remember hybrid league with SC2 snipers because SC2 got more games than BW?
I wasn't actually comparing them with whiners on the ladder, but talking about a general excuse that has been used in the past in many different areas. I'm personally not a fan of it because even with the switch, and no way to fully confirm this, it's quite likely the other teams were in a similar boat. Stork, who is on the same team as Jangbi, stated that he didn't practice as much either, so how is it that Jangbi managed to apparently practice more than Flash and co? Is it possible that he asked for more time because he was hungry to win the last OSL and it was granted or maybe he was motivated and kept practicing at night after everyone slept? Alternatively, maybe he, too, didn't get as much time as he liked, and his latent skills were much better than his competitors? We just don't know, unless Jangbi states it outright so we never will at this point, but this was the basis of my argument here. That other teams and players were in a similar situation too, so how did Jangbi manage it then? No need to answer this, thinking out loud.
On November 19 2021 12:18 BigFan wrote: I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
Thanks for sharing this!
your point stands if the players had a choice in what they practiced, but judging from what they said it seems like they didnt. obviously theyre not gonna hold the last tournaments in high esteem if the majority of the professional playerbase wasnt even given the opportunity to practice. if the players are arguing that jangbi won a tournament when it wasnt a level playing field then thats a legitimate point to make.
thing is, it's true that we know that their time was getting limited, but none of them stated just how much time they had for BW or how lenient their teams were in regards to adjusting the BW to SCII playtime ratio. My problem with this argument is that if this was an average joe progamer who saw little to moderate success and made it into the last OSL, then it would fit much better. However, cmon man, this is Flash, and he seems like the angriest of them all here. If Flash asked the coach for more time to practice BW since he wanted to win the last OSL, considering his history with the team, would they deny that? Did he ask or try to ask and got denied? We simply don't know, but as mentioned previously, I don't like them reducing Jangbi's OSL win to a mere "none of us practiced so he won" argument. This was a competition after all ~
On November 19 2021 12:18 BigFan wrote: I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
Thanks for sharing this!
That being said, in a time if uncertainty, it isn't entirely fair to compare progamers in the dying BW scene to whiners on ladder. Yes, anyone can say they weren't trying, but we have what amounts to testimonial proof even outside of this video about SC2 being prioritized due to Proleague being prioritized during that period. I can easily imagine many players being forced to practice/play SC2 when they didn't want to, for greater team unity and success. Remember hybrid league with SC2 snipers because SC2 got more games than BW?
I wasn't actually comparing them with whiners on the ladder, but talking about a general excuse that has been used in the past in many different areas. I'm personally not a fan of it because even with the switch, and no way to fully confirm this, it's quite likely the other teams were in a similar boat. Stork, who is on the same team as Jangbi, stated that he didn't practice as much either, so how is it that Jangbi managed to apparently practice more than Flash and co? Is it possible that he asked for more time because he was hungry to win the last OSL and it was granted or maybe he was motivated and kept practicing at night after everyone slept? Alternatively, maybe he, too, didn't get as much time as he liked, and his latent skills were much better than his competitors? We just don't know, unless Jangbi states it outright so we never will at this point, but this was the basis of my argument here. That other teams and players were in a similar situation too, so how did Jangbi manage it then? No need to answer this, thinking out loud.
On November 19 2021 12:18 BigFan wrote: I too don't think this one incident was the main cause for Jangbi not streaming BW. He tried for a bit and got knocked out 2-1 by Larva in an SSL (Ro8 in SSL9 in 2014 I believe). I also don't recall how he managed in tournaments until Flash's return so his brief stint was rather forgetful. However, the one thing that was incredibly annoying to me was the comments dropped, mostly in regards to that last OSL. The way his win got downplayed is quite silly and reeks of jealousy. All the alcohol did was make it come out, but the argument of "oh none of us practiced anymore because SCII but Jangbi kept practicing and won so obviously that was the reason" is just so stupid.
Like sure, mate, if you obviously didn't practice, you won't win, even if your name is Flash. It reminds me of the argument "oh I didn't bother trying so if I lost, ya, that's why". Well, ok, that's great and all, but no need to rain on someone's parade because you weren't interested in winning the last ever BW OSL. I don't recall the level of play in the last OSL so can't remember if the level was that low, and it's understandable that it can be quite forgettable for some folks, but it just doesn't sit right with me how they approach the subject.
My guess is it was a combination of lackluster play (for his level), potentially motivation (he was this kind of player), ability to be a BJ (he seems more like a fantasy type of individual) and some of this vitriol that made Jangbi stop streaming BW and decide to move on. What was interesting was that Stork didn't seem to say anything really harsh, and felt like only Flash was really mad compared to the rest who were more chill, and tried to redirect his anger.
Thanks for sharing this!
your point stands if the players had a choice in what they practiced, but judging from what they said it seems like they didnt. obviously theyre not gonna hold the last tournaments in high esteem if the majority of the professional playerbase wasnt even given the opportunity to practice. if the players are arguing that jangbi won a tournament when it wasnt a level playing field then thats a legitimate point to make.
thing is, it's true that we know that their time was getting limited, but none of them stated just how much time they had for BW or how lenient their teams were in regards to adjusting the BW to SCII playtime ratio. My problem with this argument is that if this was an average joe progamer who saw little to moderate success and made it into the last OSL, then it would fit much better. However, cmon man, this is Flash, and he seems like the angriest of them all here. If Flash asked the coach for more time to practice BW since he wanted to win the last OSL, considering his history with the team, would they deny that? Did he ask or try to ask and got denied? We simply don't know, but as mentioned previously, I don't like them reducing Jangbi's OSL win to a mere "none of us practiced so he won" argument. This was a competition after all ~
IIRC from a Bisu interview, he said that in some other teams, they allow their star players who are making a deep run in an OSL/MSL to practice entirely for OSL/MSL and almost ignore their PL duties, while on SKT1 you have to practice for PL first and foremost no matter what individual tournaments you are in. I imagine that this logic applied to SC2 as well, where some teams and players may have been given more leeway in terms of their practice schedule while others were forced into SC2. Sounds like KT forced FlaSh into practicing SC2, while the implication is that JangBi did not have the same pressure - and FlaSh would know about something like that. Is it possible that it's just the liquor and salt talking? Sure. However, I am more likely to believe that there is some truth to FlaSh's words and he is speaking from a position of knowledge on the matter.
keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
Don’t see the big deal about that video. Competitive people being drunk…and extremely loud and annoying, that one guy that doesn’t laugh is probably sober/designated driver.
I can't fathom having the mental fortitude and resilience to win back to back OSLs and then letting some smack talk discourage you into retirement. If anything you think it would motivate you to work harder and prove the haters wrong. Im almost positively certain it was factors besides this banter that lead to his retirement.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
On November 22 2021 09:52 BigFan wrote: I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
Really? As someone who's worked ~10 years in the nightlife-industry, i only have one thing to say: That's alcohol for you
Fantasy beat Flash convincingly only to fall to Jangbi.
Probably Flash feels that he would've taken down Jangbi ezpz if he had made it to the final instead.
Even if true, that doesn't mean Flash deserved to win that OSL. There's always some rock-scissor-paper dynamic at top level competitions of all sports. But that does take away some 'gloss' away from a championship - a 'true deserving' champion is one who will just steamroll every other player in the competition, if given a chance, just based on the level of performance.
Kinda mean of Flash to take down Jangbi. But it takes someone like Flash to recognise that there are champions, and then there are CHAMPIONS...
On November 22 2021 14:07 RKC wrote: Fantasy beat Flash convincingly only to fall to Jangbi.
Probably Flash feels that he would've taken down Jangbi ezpz if he had made it to the final instead.
Even if true, that doesn't mean Flash deserved to win that OSL. There's always some rock-scissor-paper dynamic at top level competitions of all sports. But that does take away some 'gloss' away from a championship - a 'true deserving' champion is one who will just steamroll every other player in the competition, if given a chance, just based on the level of performance.
Kinda mean of Flash to take down Jangbi. But it takes someone like Flash to recognise that there are champions, and then there are CHAMPIONS...
To be fair Jangbi beat Flash during the Jin Air OSL Ro8 in a straight up macro battle.
On November 20 2021 20:42 RowdierBob wrote: Jangbi was better than Flash back when he was at his peak and Flash is still bitter about it. TBH even Fantasy had passed him too. It’s obvs something that hurts his ego to this day.
Flash was clearly better in the kespa days, go look at the stats. Really unsure how you'd come to the conclusion fantasy and jangbi were better.
He just won a MSL just 2 months prior to his defeat to Jangbi in that 2011 Jin Air OSL. Talk about not being able to practice.
Same for Stork. He was in the same team with Jangbi ffs.
But let's be honest here, even if Jangbi did practice more than them (which I doubt is the case here), it's still such a lame excuse. It's the equivalent of, say Bonyth claiming Terror's BSL12 win doesn't count because he had baby duty during that time.
On November 20 2021 20:42 RowdierBob wrote: Jangbi was better than Flash back when he was at his peak and Flash is still bitter about it. TBH even Fantasy had passed him too. It’s obvs something that hurts his ego to this day.
Flash was clearly better in the kespa days, go look at the stats. Really unsure how you'd come to the conclusion fantasy and jangbi were better.
Well, toward the end of the BW era, both had beaten FlaSh in their tournament matches and the games were fairly convincing. Whether it's enough to say they were outright better is up to interpretation, but both were definitely up there and seemed to be on the rise whereas FlaSh seemed to be becoming more mortal relative to his peak; looking at SPL finals is another moment to consider, when it was still pure BW and everything was riding on a W.
Both Fantasy and JangBi were doing exciting things in the vT match-up toward the end, both were now consistently making finals, and both had beaten FlaSh to get there. It's not too far outside the realm of reality, qualitatively.
lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
On November 22 2021 09:52 BigFan wrote: I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
Really? As someone who's worked ~10 years in the nightlife-industry, i only have one thing to say: That's alcohol for you
Yep, I know alcohol played a key role. It's more the great contrast between regular and drunk Flash that's quite interesting to see.
I actually like the comradery between these guys, and the banters, fun Asian drunk food party. Nothing should be taken too seriously in these settings.
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that
Except Jangbi doesn't know that which is what got Flash riled up in the first place, that and he's clearly annoyed about the last OSL to bring that up. Jangbi surely knows Flash is a beast but as he's confident in PvT he doesn't rate Flash as highly as Jaedong.
As this is just drunken chat so I don't take it that seriously, but Jangbi didn't really seem to enjoy streaming and had something else lined up which probably contributed more to him retiring.
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
On November 23 2021 19:52 Broodwar4lyf wrote: jangbi was the clutchest bw player, more than Flash.
I think he was more known as one of the players that choked the most because of all the 2nd place finishes he had.
I think one of the criticisms that Jangbi has is also that he was never able to replicate his success when he tried to comeback to bw. Like I think the majority of people who discredit his last OSL win wouldn't say anything if he was able to get back in form and take a title again.
On November 23 2021 19:52 Broodwar4lyf wrote: jangbi was the clutchest bw player, more than Flash.
I think he was more known as one of the players that choked the most because of all the 2nd place finishes he had.
I think one of the criticisms that Jangbi has is also that he was never able to replicate his success when he tried to comeback to bw. Like I think the majority of people who discredit his last OSL win wouldn't say anything if he was able to get back in form and take a title again.
I am so happy that Jangbi never really came back to this retirement league known as ASL. I do not know if he could not compete anymore or did not want to (i. e. put in the necessary time), but I am happy he moved on. So I do not have to deal with tainted memories of subpar play that happened 8 years past his prime. Watching Jaedong play in those ASLs caused me enough heartbreak.
On November 23 2021 19:52 Broodwar4lyf wrote: jangbi was the clutchest bw player, more than Flash.
I think he was more known as one of the players that choked the most because of all the 2nd place finishes he had.
I think one of the criticisms that Jangbi has is also that he was never able to replicate his success when he tried to comeback to bw. Like I think the majority of people who discredit his last OSL win wouldn't say anything if he was able to get back in form and take a title again.
I am so happy that Jangbi never really came back to this retirement league known as ASL. I do not know if he could not compete anymore or did not want to (i. e. put in the necessary time), but I am happy he moved on. So I do not have to deal with tainted memories of subpar play that happened 8 years past his prime. Watching Jaedong play in those ASLs caused me enough heartbreak.
Watching Bisu play was even worse.
I agree that the level of play isn't the same post-kespa, but I'm very happy that players decided to compete. It kept BW alive and I loved watching the games =)
On November 23 2021 19:52 Broodwar4lyf wrote: jangbi was the clutchest bw player, more than Flash.
I think he was more known as one of the players that choked the most because of all the 2nd place finishes he had.
I think one of the criticisms that Jangbi has is also that he was never able to replicate his success when he tried to comeback to bw. Like I think the majority of people who discredit his last OSL win wouldn't say anything if he was able to get back in form and take a title again.
Jangbi didn't really try to come back did he? His last BW tournament was SSL back in 2015, 2 years even before this video came out.
That criticism, if valid, applies more for Jaedong and especially Stork himself.
Btw who are the people who discredit his last OSL, apart from the only 3 guys (Sea, Flash, Stork) in that video?
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
On November 24 2021 09:02 XenOsky wrote: if one person in the starcraft universe deserves to be a total asshole to whoever he wants that person is FlaSh...
mofocker is the greatest ever, he can trashtalk all he wants...
nobody deserves to be a total asshole, not even FlaSh.
On November 24 2021 09:02 XenOsky wrote: if one person in the starcraft universe deserves to be a total asshole to whoever he wants that person is FlaSh...
mofocker is the greatest ever, he can trashtalk all he wants...
Funny you say this, because he got (kinda) trashtalked by Jangbi haha. Having said that, nope, no person deserves to be an asshole to any other even if they are the GOAT.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
When Mike Tyson says he will stomp on your children’s testicles, it’s all good and fun, but when Flash says he will beat JangBi in a computer game, everyone loses their minds
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
This is the most ridiculous take by far in this thread. Did you just make up some rules on etiquette and common sense based on your fanboyism? Flash is completely justified in doing or saying anything he wants when someone doesn't think he's the goat? What world are we lliving in?
Any Liga defender can say Ronaldo (both), Maradona or Pele is the goat and it's completely fine. You don't see Messi going out there and claiming "I will nutmeg this guy into retirement", do you? Imagine the shit he'd get if Messi actually did something like that lol.
Mind. Sharp asked Jangbi who's the players he respects the most, not who's the goat. It could be that Jangbi thinks "Tesagi", hence he values Bisu and Jaedong more than Flash. But he literally acknowledged in the next sentence that Flash is tough to beat didn't he? What's wrong with that?
Then of course Flash has his rights to disagree with what Jangbi thought. It'd be fine if he just said something like "No. I think you're wrong. It's not because of Tesagi. I'm the best and I will beat you 20-0". But the way he said it, especially when he claimed he'd make Jangbi quit streaming, it shows he just wanted to insult, even harm someone, just for not adoring him. That's cuntish behavior if I'm to be honest.
When is a win not deserving? cheating, hacking? sure. Lack of practise? Nope. If that was true, then none of the wins of pros vs casuals are deserving.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
This is the most ridiculous take by far in this thread. Did you just make up some rules on etiquette and common sense based on your fanboyism? Flash is completely justified in doing or saying anything he wants when someone doesn't think he's the goat? What world are we lliving in?
Any Liga defender can say Ronaldo (both), Maradona or Pele is the goat and it's completely fine. You don't see Messi going out there and claiming "I will nutmeg this guy into retirement", do you? Imagine the shit he'd get if Messi actually did something like that lol.
Mind. Sharp asked Jangbi who's the players he respects the most, not who's the goat. It could be that Jangbi thinks "Tesagi", hence he values Bisu and Jaedong more than Flash. But he literally acknowledged in the next sentence that Flash is tough to beat didn't he? What's wrong with that?
Then of course Flash has his rights to disagree with what Jangbi thought. It'd be fine if he just said something like "No. I think you're wrong. It's not because of Tesagi. I'm the best and I will beat you 20-0". But the way he said it, especially when he claimed he'd make Jangbi quit streaming, it shows he just wanted to insult, even harm someone, just for not adoring him. That's cuntish behavior if I'm to be honest.
i never said flash got offended because jangbi didnt say he was the goat. im saying flash got offended because he was disrespected, despite the fact that it is indisputable flash is the goat. also you seem to speak with a lot of confidence about what was said in those vids based off translations. you do realise there are things lost in translation? the original question by sharp to jangbi isnt "which progamers do you respect most", its "which progamers do you acknowledge the most". there is a subtle yet extremely important difference between the two. you can respect players for many reasons unrelated to pure playing ability. you cant acknowledge players that arent objectively good at the game. the question sharp asked can be rephrased to be this "who out of your professional colleagues do you think is really good". jangbi answered "bisu and jaedong" only. sharp asked as a follow up "terran has to be flash right?" to which jangbi says in a weak and reluctant manner ".....yeah". now if youre flash; the undisputed goat of sc, and you see jangbi reluctantly acknowledge you basically as if he name drops you to avoid the pr shitstorm of having excluded you from a list of pros worth acknowledging, no shit youre going to be pissed. its straight up disrespect from a player who, for the most part of his career, was mid tier
On November 24 2021 18:38 Timebon3s wrote: When Mike Tyson says he will stomp on your children’s testicles, it’s all good and fun, but when Flash says he will beat JangBi in a computer game, everyone loses their minds
I was actually thinking about this in context/comparison with how Michael Jordan is viewed. (Fyi I havent even seen the Flash video yet) MJ is generally considered goat, and he has a lot of recorded instances when his infamous competitiveness completely shines through.. like trash talking both opponents and teammates. And what’s unique and a consequence of being goat (and a famous and well-loved one at that), a lot of these instances are typically not just ignored but actually celebrated.. because its what makes MJ MJ. Its what it took to win. Its because he’s an assassin/cold-blooded/clutch etc. And its entertaining as hell to listen to these stories. And all this makes for interesting debate imo. Should these guys get a pass for acting this way? If we condone these actions, do we go so far as to view them positively instead of negatively? Going back to MJ trash talking and being hard on his teammates, if a company CEO acted the way MJ did with his teammates, I doubt a lot of people would really praise that CEO for doing what it took to push his company for greatness. If your boss bullied you into giving 100% at your job and spending all your free time at it, you probably wouldnt appreciate it. Granted you arent being paid millions of dollars.. but still.
On November 20 2021 07:12 CHEONSOYUN wrote: you're incentivized as a BJ to talk shit and make (non)drama like this for the viewers
i can see why jangbi would want to exit rather than continue streaming
yes exactly my thoughts too. All this trash talk reminds me of pre-game boxing matches just to hype things up. They need to get people to watch after all. And most of all they are talking among friends after having a drink. We all talk shit among friends too.... it is a game about being better than the other guy. Damn even Bobby Fisher trash talked Boris Spassky. Besides, based on my limited knowledge of watching Flash in his own streams, he seems to be a really cool and nice guy.
If Mohammad Ali were born today and he didn't go into boxing, he could definitely be a great rapper
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
I would have to disagree. Top athletes.. top company CEOs.. at the very least a simple majority would be weighted towards having a bigger ego instead of being humble. I would say its very rare to find someone at the top of his field to be extremely humble and not have an ego. You are correct though that there are far too many people who are at the bottom but have far too much ego/confidence. Doesnt mean the ones who are actually good will be humble about it.
i think its perfectly reasonable to assume that people at the top of their respective fields have moderate amounts of humility. i wouldnt even agree having an ego and being humble is mutually exclusive. the reason for that is you simply cannot reach the top unless you have humility because thats how you grow. yes once you reach the top you probably quite rightly have an ego but for the entire journey to the point you reach the top it takes a lot of self reflecting and self assessment. if youre only halfway to the top and you lack humility you wont go any further.
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
I would have to disagree. Top athletes.. top company CEOs.. at the very least a simple majority would be weighted towards having a bigger ego instead of being humble. I would say its very rare to find someone at the top of his field to be extremely humble and not have an ego. You are correct though that there are far too many people who are at the bottom but have far too much ego/confidence. Doesnt mean the ones who are actually good will be humble about it.
Most top athletes who don’t have to market themselves tend to be bloody humble. Not always, there’s going to be variance. Boxing and MMA is full of it, to a pretty tiresome degree tbh, but hype needs to be driven.
Progamers historically have had salaries and have to win games, and do their talking that way. Or other individual sports like tennis, or golf where you don’t tend to have a huge amount of bragging and beef, you’ve got to do your earning by winning.
I think ultimately it’s probably due to the best progamers (or other sportspeople) being aware not just how good they are, but how slim the margins are to other good pros and how good they are and how much work they’re putting in.
It’s a field of direct competition, and results > any amount of bragging or trash talking one can do.
A CEO will have an ego out of whack because they’re sitting atop a much wider machine and be given all the credit for not just their decisions but everything smart done under them. They’re not going 1 on 1 with other CEOs in some contest of CEO skills.
With other industries there’s a selection bias where those who project confidence outwardly tend to get given gigs, without necessarily being more competent than their more humble peers.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
This is the most ridiculous take by far in this thread. Did you just make up some rules on etiquette and common sense based on your fanboyism? Flash is completely justified in doing or saying anything he wants when someone doesn't think he's the goat? What world are we lliving in?
Any Liga defender can say Ronaldo (both), Maradona or Pele is the goat and it's completely fine. You don't see Messi going out there and claiming "I will nutmeg this guy into retirement", do you? Imagine the shit he'd get if Messi actually did something like that lol.
Mind. Sharp asked Jangbi who's the players he respects the most, not who's the goat. It could be that Jangbi thinks "Tesagi", hence he values Bisu and Jaedong more than Flash. But he literally acknowledged in the next sentence that Flash is tough to beat didn't he? What's wrong with that?
Then of course Flash has his rights to disagree with what Jangbi thought. It'd be fine if he just said something like "No. I think you're wrong. It's not because of Tesagi. I'm the best and I will beat you 20-0". But the way he said it, especially when he claimed he'd make Jangbi quit streaming, it shows he just wanted to insult, even harm someone, just for not adoring him. That's cuntish behavior if I'm to be honest.
i never said flash got offended because jangbi didnt say he was the goat. im saying flash got offended because he was disrespected, despite the fact that it is indisputable flash is the goat. also you seem to speak with a lot of confidence about what was said in those vids based off translations. you do realise there are things lost in translation? the original question by sharp to jangbi isnt "which progamers do you respect most", its "which progamers do you acknowledge the most". there is a subtle yet extremely important difference between the two. you can respect players for many reasons unrelated to pure playing ability. you cant acknowledge players that arent objectively good at the game. the question sharp asked can be rephrased to be this "who out of your professional colleagues do you think is really good". jangbi answered "bisu and jaedong" only. sharp asked as a follow up "terran has to be flash right?" to which jangbi says in a weak and reluctant manner ".....yeah". now if youre flash; the undisputed goat of sc, and you see jangbi reluctantly acknowledge you basically as if he name drops you to avoid the pr shitstorm of having excluded you from a list of pros worth acknowledging, no shit youre going to be pissed. its straight up disrespect from a player who, for the most part of his career, was mid tier
Tell you what. Don't even bother with "acknowledge" or "respect". If there existed an official title as "Goat" awarded to Flash, it's still 100% fine for anyone, not just Jangbi, to say he's not the goat.
Look at football. There's literrally the official Ballon d'Or there. I guess after Messi or Ronaldo won it each year, they'd look into the polls and found player X who didn't vote for him, and be like "I will retire you for disrespecting me".
There's your equivalent of this situation. The way you try to rationalize Flash's reaction is laughable.
On November 24 2021 18:38 Timebon3s wrote: When Mike Tyson says he will stomp on your children’s testicles, it’s all good and fun, but when Flash says he will beat JangBi in a computer game, everyone loses their minds
I was actually thinking about this in context/comparison with how Michael Jordan is viewed. (Fyi I havent even seen the Flash video yet) MJ is generally considered goat, and he has a lot of recorded instances when his infamous competitiveness completely shines through.. like trash talking both opponents and teammates. And what’s unique and a consequence of being goat (and a famous and well-loved one at that), a lot of these instances are typically not just ignored but actually celebrated.. because its what makes MJ MJ. Its what it took to win. Its because he’s an assassin/cold-blooded/clutch etc. And its entertaining as hell to listen to these stories. And all this makes for interesting debate imo. Should these guys get a pass for acting this way? If we condone these actions, do we go so far as to view them positively instead of negatively? Going back to MJ trash talking and being hard on his teammates, if a company CEO acted the way MJ did with his teammates, I doubt a lot of people would really praise that CEO for doing what it took to push his company for greatness. If your boss bullied you into giving 100% at your job and spending all your free time at it, you probably wouldnt appreciate it. Granted you arent being paid millions of dollars.. but still.
It’s not good teamwork to badmouth your teammates if they feel bad and perform worse because of it. That makes you a worse player IMO if the result of your actions makes your team perform worse, if that makes any sense.
In individual sports I think it’s perfectly fine. It makes it more appealing to watch, and it can fuck with your opponents self esteem.
On November 24 2021 09:02 XenOsky wrote: if one person in the starcraft universe deserves to be a total asshole to whoever he wants that person is FlaSh...
mofocker is the greatest ever, he can trashtalk all he wants...
Funny you say this, because he got (kinda) trashtalked by Jangbi haha. Having said that, nope, no person deserves to be an asshole to any other even if they are the GOAT.
flash is shit talking based on skill, he is not insulting his mother or smth like that , he is saying hes gonna spon match him 20 games / day... so jangbi retires... imo if a person has the right to act that cocky about his skills in sc, that person is flash and flash only + Show Spoiler +
^ I prefer for players to display their "trashtalk" in game like Jaedong's 5 proxy hatch in FBH's exp or Much's pylon hearts for instance. A bit of back and forth trashtalk between competitors that face off a lot (think FvJ) would be ok, but Jangbi wasn't even trying to trashtalk here. From the translation, it sounded like he just didn't think much of Flash as he did Bisu or Jaedong. Either way, not much else to discuss on this point.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
he kinda isn't allowed? what? Last I checked, there is something called free speech. That aside, it's like I already stated: Jangbi is allowed to say what he likes and you/Flash/random guy can choose to ignore what he said or get mad about it. Jangbi is not obligated to include Flash in any conversation if he doesn't want to or doesn't feel it's necessary.
IMO, Jangbi is free to decide who he believes are the players that are worthy of his respect. I can't speak as to why he chose Jaedong and Bisu. Maybe he always felt pressured against either player, but never felt the same pressure whenever he played Flash. Maybe he secretly believes that Tesagi is true, that Flash didn't work as hard as his zerg/protoss counterparts, or that Flash isn't all he's cracked up to be, having beaten him in Jin Air OSL in macro games? I don't know why he didn't include Flash till Sharp prodded for his opinion there, but I also won't hold it against him either. Likewise, Flash is free to get mad when he heard that Jangbi didn't include him till he got prodded.
There really isn't anything to discuss here. If you still disagree, to each his own.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
This is the most ridiculous take by far in this thread. Did you just make up some rules on etiquette and common sense based on your fanboyism? Flash is completely justified in doing or saying anything he wants when someone doesn't think he's the goat? What world are we lliving in?
Any Liga defender can say Ronaldo (both), Maradona or Pele is the goat and it's completely fine. You don't see Messi going out there and claiming "I will nutmeg this guy into retirement", do you? Imagine the shit he'd get if Messi actually did something like that lol.
Mind. Sharp asked Jangbi who's the players he respects the most, not who's the goat. It could be that Jangbi thinks "Tesagi", hence he values Bisu and Jaedong more than Flash. But he literally acknowledged in the next sentence that Flash is tough to beat didn't he? What's wrong with that?
Then of course Flash has his rights to disagree with what Jangbi thought. It'd be fine if he just said something like "No. I think you're wrong. It's not because of Tesagi. I'm the best and I will beat you 20-0". But the way he said it, especially when he claimed he'd make Jangbi quit streaming, it shows he just wanted to insult, even harm someone, just for not adoring him. That's cuntish behavior if I'm to be honest.
i never said flash got offended because jangbi didnt say he was the goat. im saying flash got offended because he was disrespected, despite the fact that it is indisputable flash is the goat. also you seem to speak with a lot of confidence about what was said in those vids based off translations. you do realise there are things lost in translation? the original question by sharp to jangbi isnt "which progamers do you respect most", its "which progamers do you acknowledge the most". there is a subtle yet extremely important difference between the two. you can respect players for many reasons unrelated to pure playing ability. you cant acknowledge players that arent objectively good at the game. the question sharp asked can be rephrased to be this "who out of your professional colleagues do you think is really good". jangbi answered "bisu and jaedong" only. sharp asked as a follow up "terran has to be flash right?" to which jangbi says in a weak and reluctant manner ".....yeah". now if youre flash; the undisputed goat of sc, and you see jangbi reluctantly acknowledge you basically as if he name drops you to avoid the pr shitstorm of having excluded you from a list of pros worth acknowledging, no shit youre going to be pissed. its straight up disrespect from a player who, for the most part of his career, was mid tier
Tell you what. Don't even bother with "acknowledge" or "respect". If there existed an official title as "Goat" awarded to Flash, it's still 100% fine for anyone, not just Jangbi, to say he's not the goat.
Look at football. There's literrally the official Ballon d'Or there. I guess after Messi or Ronaldo won it each year, they'd look into the polls and found player X who didn't vote for him, and be like "I will retire you for disrespecting me".
There's your equivalent of this situation. The way you try to rationalize Flash's reaction is laughable.
i made the messi/goat analogy because no matter what you think of him you cant deny he is an unbelievable player. even the blindest cr7 fanboys would agree to that. its the exact same case with flash, except his claim to the title of goat is even less ambiguous than football players. again, the issue isnt that jangbi didnt literally call flash the goat. stop fixating on that point. it was an analogy. the real problem is jangbi disrespected flash by not even acknowledging him as a player worth mentioning. use ur fking brain
On November 25 2021 09:08 BigFan wrote: ^ I prefer for players to display their "trashtalk" in game like Jaedong's 5 proxy hatch in FBH's exp or Much's pylon hearts for instance. A bit of back and forth trashtalk between competitors that face off a lot (think FvJ) would be ok, but Jangbi wasn't even trying to trashtalk here. From the translation, it sounded like he just didn't think much of Flash as he did Bisu or Jaedong. Either way, not much else to discuss on this point.
On November 21 2021 11:21 evilfatsh1t wrote: keep in mind that the point that got flash annoyed in the video isnt actually his loss to jangbi in the osl. that just came up as a separate issue. the thing that made flash get pissed off is jangbi talking to other pros in a discussion about whos good and when jangbi was asked about flash his response was "...yeahhhhh". it wasnt a definite acknowledgement of flash but rather a reluctant admission with a caveat. thats what pissed flash off and is why he wanted to put jangbi in his place with 20 spons
sure, and he is allowed to get mad if he wants. Just as Jangbi is allowed to not put Flash in his list either. I mean, from the discussion that he had with Sharp, Jangbi seemed surprised that Protosses were having problems with PvT even if Flash and Last were around, so perhaps he thought that PvT was a matchup that the Protoss player should win even with strong opponents compared to say PvZ where it's more difficult for the Protoss? Perhaps he thought that Flash, as strong as he is, isn't as hard of an opponent as he's made out to be? Maybe he secretly believes that P/Z is harder at high level than T so he acknowledges the best players in those races, aka Bisu and Jaedong (dunno his thoughts about Stork, but there was friction between them anyways)?
I could go on and on. Point being that I agree that Flash was pissed about that, but both of them are free to their opinions. I only personally took issue with how downplayed the last OSL win was. It was definitely surprising to see how huge Flash's ego was considering how he presents himself.
i mean...he kinda isnt allowed. thats the whole reason why flash would be pissed. its just offensive to even consider that flash isnt the goat and for jangbi to think that flash isnt all that would be like any defender in la liga saying messi shouldnt be in the discussion for goat. jangbi's right to have his opinion doesnt make his opinion right. not a single starcraft professional has the right to exclude flash from any discussion of best pros or pros that are tough to play against. flash is completely justified in being offended and wanting to smack jangbi in spons imo.
he kinda isn't allowed? what? Last I checked, there is something called free speech. That aside, it's like I already stated: Jangbi is allowed to say what he likes and you/Flash/random guy can choose to ignore what he said or get mad about it. Jangbi is not obligated to include Flash in any conversation if he doesn't want to or doesn't feel it's necessary.
IMO, Jangbi is free to decide who he believes are the players that are worthy of his respect. I can't speak as to why he chose Jaedong and Bisu. Maybe he always felt pressured against either player, but never felt the same pressure whenever he played Flash. Maybe he secretly believes that Tesagi is true, that Flash didn't work as hard as his zerg/protoss counterparts, or that Flash isn't all he's cracked up to be, having beaten him in Jin Air OSL in macro games? I don't know why he didn't include Flash till Sharp prodded for his opinion there, but I also won't hold it against him either. Likewise, Flash is free to get mad when he heard that Jangbi didn't include him till he got prodded.
There really isn't anything to discuss here. If you still disagree, to each his own.
i didnt think id have to explain that i wasnt implying he literally doesnt have the right to an opinion. my point is that any opinion that excludes flash from receiving the acknowledgement he deserves would be a wrong opinion. jangbi can say whatever he likes, but if his opinion is going to be that flash isnt deserving of 'respect' then he would be wrong and he would quite rightly deserve any backlash he gets from flash himself or anyone else who hears him say such a stupid thing. hence, flash's reaction wasnt unreasonable at all
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
I would have to disagree. Top athletes.. top company CEOs.. at the very least a simple majority would be weighted towards having a bigger ego instead of being humble. I would say its very rare to find someone at the top of his field to be extremely humble and not have an ego. You are correct though that there are far too many people who are at the bottom but have far too much ego/confidence. Doesnt mean the ones who are actually good will be humble about it.
Most top athletes who don’t have to market themselves tend to be bloody humble. Not always, there’s going to be variance. Boxing and MMA is full of it, to a pretty tiresome degree tbh, but hype needs to be driven.
Progamers historically have had salaries and have to win games, and do their talking that way. Or other individual sports like tennis, or golf where you don’t tend to have a huge amount of bragging and beef, you’ve got to do your earning by winning.
I think ultimately it’s probably due to the best progamers (or other sportspeople) being aware not just how good they are, but how slim the margins are to other good pros and how good they are and how much work they’re putting in.
It’s a field of direct competition, and results > any amount of bragging or trash talking one can do.
A CEO will have an ego out of whack because they’re sitting atop a much wider machine and be given all the credit for not just their decisions but everything smart done under them. They’re not going 1 on 1 with other CEOs in some contest of CEO skills.
With other industries there’s a selection bias where those who project confidence outwardly tend to get given gigs, without necessarily being more competent than their more humble peers.
You can be humble and have huge ego? But as a progamer, if you don't have a huge ego, that means you won't think yourself of better than other pros. You can't really win with that mindset.
i made the messi/goat analogy because no matter what you think of him you cant deny he is an unbelievable player. even the blindest cr7 fanboys would agree to that. its the exact same case with flash, except his claim to the title of goat is even less ambiguous than football players. again, the issue isnt that jangbi didnt literally call flash the goat. stop fixating on that point. it was an analogy. the real problem is jangbi disrespected flash by not even acknowledging him as a player worth mentioning. use ur fking brain
You are the one who needs to use your brain bro, instead of channeling your Flash fanboyism all over the place to bend the rule of common sense.
I didn't fixate on the goat point, if you pay any attention. I said even if he was officially the goat, it'd still be fine for Jangbi to not mention him, because in the end it's a matter of personal opinion. Let alone in this case, where the question was "which player do you respect/acknowledge the most", which is a question even more personal oriented.
Plus, by your logic, Stork should be the next one to feel disrespected by Jangbi, since his name didn't come up at all. And let's say Jangbi did mention Stork, then Fantasy probably should feel irritated. The list goes on. Right? Since the question was not about the goat, you can respect/acknowledge as many players as you want, as long as they are "unbelievable" players. I'm sure the list is long and Jangbi disrespected a lot more lol.
You made it out like not mentioning Flash is some kind of violation to a written rule. Was there a Starcraft bible that states everyone should love (and acknowledge) Flash in all situations? Ridiculous.
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
You don't become among the worlds best without a huge ego, let alone the undisputed best. Depending on culture you won't necessarily show it much, but obviously with alcohol you can see a glimpse
Weird take, there are plenty of athletes at the top that are incredibly humble, and within just BW alone Jaedong is a prime counterexample to your huge ego requirement.
I’d argue a large degree of humility in one’s psyche is something you kind of need to be one of these dominant players
Doesn’t mean you don’t have a realistic gauge in your abilities, but when one starts to sit back and think they’re the best, that’s how the rest start to catch you.
So many elite pro gamers have egos that are borderline aggravatingly low in accepting their chops and accomplishments, and not just in BW either. It’s so commonplace I think that mentality is beneficial to getting to that level
I would have to disagree. Top athletes.. top company CEOs.. at the very least a simple majority would be weighted towards having a bigger ego instead of being humble. I would say its very rare to find someone at the top of his field to be extremely humble and not have an ego. You are correct though that there are far too many people who are at the bottom but have far too much ego/confidence. Doesnt mean the ones who are actually good will be humble about it.
Most top athletes who don’t have to market themselves tend to be bloody humble. Not always, there’s going to be variance. Boxing and MMA is full of it, to a pretty tiresome degree tbh, but hype needs to be driven.
Progamers historically have had salaries and have to win games, and do their talking that way. Or other individual sports like tennis, or golf where you don’t tend to have a huge amount of bragging and beef, you’ve got to do your earning by winning.
I think ultimately it’s probably due to the best progamers (or other sportspeople) being aware not just how good they are, but how slim the margins are to other good pros and how good they are and how much work they’re putting in.
It’s a field of direct competition, and results > any amount of bragging or trash talking one can do.
A CEO will have an ego out of whack because they’re sitting atop a much wider machine and be given all the credit for not just their decisions but everything smart done under them. They’re not going 1 on 1 with other CEOs in some contest of CEO skills.
With other industries there’s a selection bias where those who project confidence outwardly tend to get given gigs, without necessarily being more competent than their more humble peers.
You can be humble and have huge ego? But as a progamer, if you don't have a huge ego, that means you won't think yourself of better than other pros. You can't really win with that mindset.
You don’t have to think you’re better than other pros, you just have to actually be better than other pros.
Perhaps it’s a cultural thing and presentation thing too, a decade plus of player interviews can give the impression that a big chunk of pros always seem to think they weren’t expecting to win half the time, but that could just be playing to a particular crowd and not really reflective of what they actually believe too.
On November 23 2021 05:46 dr.who wrote: lol haters who are bitter about flash being the overall best bw player of all times talking about ego, al i see here is just a player responding to the trashtalk of other player, and daring him to demostrate the shit hes talking about in 20games. Flahs is absolutely sure about his skills and knows he has always been better than jangbi, and janbi also knows that, and i think this is part of the reason why jangbi retired because he was afraid of being ridiculed by flash because that is a mayor thing in korean culture. if jangbi were sure about his skills vs terran he would have accepted the challenge as a man. gg.
Yep, I see it the same way. Jangbi was refusing to give full credit to Flash's skills as the reason for his success, suggesting instead that his playing Terran had something to do with it. Well anyone who's been involved in competition knows how offensive it is when someone attributes your accomplishments to things other than your own ability. Especially when said person was likely only able to win a championship because his team allowed him to play the game more than anyone else. So Flash basically said, if you're truly that good, reproduce that success, rise to top again, and beat me as you said you would. And Jangbi couldn't. So then it's easy to understand why most didn't think much about his win.
The persona of flash I liked and respect is the one where he is humble and not involved in scam-coins. Jangbi has the right to not put flash in his list of most respected players. Not putting flash there does not equate disrespect. Its his views and he has a right to voice them out.
End date of Jin Air OSL (where jangbi beats flash convincingly): Sep 2011 Date of SK Proleague finals (2011-2012) (where Flash was at his peak but lost to Bisu): April 2012
On November 28 2021 05:52 WombaT wrote: Aside from anything else, Jesus imagine having to play 20 games in a row against Flash, that would be brutal!
Would have been epic.. and I wonder if opinions would change if we were given the chance to see how these games would have turned out.. in theory, the outcome should be irrelevant.. if u are okay / have a problem with what jangbi/flash said, that shouldnt change or depend on whether the player is able to back up their talk or not.. but in a world where might is right, that probably wouldnt be the case
Edit: Flash’s KT teammates were infamous for going through stretches of severe slumps.. probably because they had to play xx number of games against Flash on a daily basis.. Hoejja said it best: “If you play 10 games in a day with Flash, you forget how to win a game. You forget how to win! He's that good."
Might as well throw in my 2c as well.. I think whether you have a problem with what jangbi said (and consequently how Flash reacted) depends on how highly you think of Flash. I disagree with the argument that Jangbi is simply entitled to his own opinion. Thats pretty weak. You say something moronic, expect to be called out on it and/or ridiculed. So did Jangbi say something out of line? Not imo. Its key that he named JD/Bisu and did not mention any Terran players. Folks are pointing out tesagi but imo its the opposite. Jangbi is an absolute Terran killer, and he could very well be completely confident in that matchup. In their primes, its very debatable how you’ll rank JD/Bisu/Flash on who has the highest probability of winning against Jangbi. I would personally put JD at the highest.. Bisu and Flash is closer but honestly, i think Bisu is ahead given how monstrous his PvP is. Obviously Flash disagrees and who am I to argue with him Its close enough that I cant really blame him if he took offense.
Maybe Jaedong/Bisu have an intense aura that's more difficult to play against. Psychological reasons why Jangbi would think those 2 are top. Also maybe a generational thing, and a Protoss opinions. Because of the way Flash plays and the Terran style it's very different for example having to play against JD 2hatch muta at his peak or Bisu's sair/dt. Players who storm out of the blocks aggressive and feel impossible mentally to face. Like Fantasy TvP on a good day.
I mean the OSL is prove that Jangbi didn't seem to be psychologically affected by Flash as much as you'd expect (Fantasy on the other hand was so close to breaking him). Flash to me was more impressive because of his consistent play and amazing control and defense. A different style of champion. Maybe Flash lost some of his aura because of the loss to EffOrt as well. I'm not sure of the circumstances of that loss but I recall in proleague Flash would often rely on economic risks and advantages and top notch macro.And when h was matched in that it resulted in a quite disappointing display.
On November 28 2021 05:52 WombaT wrote: Aside from anything else, Jesus imagine having to play 20 games in a row against Flash, that would be brutal!
I don't think anyone could beat him. Not even Effort.
Like he did in Season 6 but times 4? ^_._^
I'd wager Bisu could spank shine 20 games in a row, but still get crushed in a tournament. Some people just have other people's numbers. I'd love to see a list of great players in X match up and their most kryptonite opponents.