EPTWhy do goliaths do so well vs Z yet goons suck so
| Forum Index > BW General |
|
[terGTOss]
Canada46 Posts
| ||
|
aokces
United States309 Posts
| ||
|
TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
 22 compared to 30 is a pretty big firing rate difference actually. And another huge thing is that gols are a lot easier to micro vs lings and have a much longer range vs muta. | ||
|
LuMiX
China5757 Posts
 | ||
|
Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
problem solved  | ||
|
SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
| ||
|
Element)LoGiC
Canada1143 Posts
2) Goliaths are cheaper. 3) Goliaths have farther range which allows them stack attacks better than dragoons. | ||
|
ShabZzoY!
Great Britain760 Posts
They shoot instantly when doing move and shoot They shoot fast They dont have retarded AI Basically its not just goli and goon comparison, its just that goons are really shit compared to how they are "on paper", i mean technically goons should compare well to hydras but in practice they just suck because of their slow attack and long attack animation, cumbersome movement/micro etc. Someone said goli is medium. Its actually large, and golis dont "rape" hydras they just dont do badly. They do destroy pure lings simply because of the damage type and that they micro so well and fire quickly | ||
|
flag
United States228 Posts
On July 27 2007 09:09 Pika Chu wrote: gol is medium, goon is large problem solved Goliath is large On July 27 2007 09:34 Element)LoGiC wrote: 3) Goliaths have farther range which allows them stack attacks better than dragoons. Goliaths have the same ground range as upgraded goons. | ||
Chill
Calgary25990 Posts
On July 27 2007 08:53 [terGTOss] wrote: Anyone who's ever tried mass gols vs Z would agree with me that gols just rape lings & hydras & lurkers & mutas & whatever (well, not muta/ling, but pretty much everything else) Well allllllllllllrighty then. | ||
|
merz
Sweden2760 Posts
Try fitting in 4 goons into a shuttle. Now try fitting in 4 goliaths into a dropship. Goliaths range upgrade makes them superior to goons as that upgrade reaches even furhter than goons range upgrade. | ||
|
azndsh
United States4447 Posts
On July 27 2007 09:53 meRz wrote: Goliath is not large. Try fitting in 4 goons into a shuttle. Now try fitting in 4 goliaths into a dropship. Goliaths range upgrade makes them superior to goons as that upgrade reaches even furhter than goons range upgrade. This has been addressed at least 100 times. Unit size in transport is not the same thing as unit type in terms of damage taken. Goon range upgrade is 4 to 6 Goliath range upgrade only affects air 5 to 8. It still has less groud range (5 vs. 6) Goliaths kill zerglings in 3 hits, goons take 4 and have a dumber firing animation. | ||
|
flag
United States228 Posts
On July 27 2007 09:53 meRz wrote: Goliath is not large. Try fitting in 4 goons into a shuttle. Now try fitting in 4 goliaths into a dropship. Goliaths range upgrade makes them superior to goons as that upgrade reaches even furhter than goons range upgrade. Goliath is large http://battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml. You could also just shoot a goliath with an explosive damage unit and see that it takes full damage. Size in dropship has nothing to do with damage type size, for instance zealot is small and it takes 2 spots too. Goliath's range upgrade only affects their air attack. On July 27 2007 09:58 azndsh wrote: Goliath range upgrade only affects air 5 to 8. It still has less groud range (5 vs. 6) I think goliath's initial ground and air range is 6 (air might start as 5 still). It was increased in a patch and never they updated the unit stats page. | ||
|
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
The reason is simple: Goliath's ground weapon reaches the target instantly, whereas goon's takes some time to fly. This leads to goons doing many shots that reach already dead targets, effective wasting the shots. This mostly happens with lings. Goons also have explosive vs goliath's normal, so 50% damage vs lings. Plus, golies have gross anti-air with charon and grades. However, neither are majorly used vs zerg because of the muta timings - you just can't amass a force large enough to counter muta in time because of the tech/need to defend vs lings. Goons are, however, much more often used in PvZ than golies, so the thread question is somewhat stupid. They are very durable, don't have a rotation time (so that shoot&move micro is MORE effective with them than with golies) and are generally very universal in use. Not to mention they are (or at least seem to be) somewhat faster than golies which means a lot. They also produce from gates which don't cost gas (much unlike golies) and that is also an important factor. | ||
|
merz
Sweden2760 Posts
 | ||
|
kidd
United States2848 Posts
Goons are best against large units iirc. | ||
|
Hittegods
Stockholm4641 Posts
On July 27 2007 10:02 BluzMan wrote: Goons are, however, much more often used in PvZ than golies Yeah, goliaths seem to be used very seldom in PvZ | ||
|
Duke
United States1106 Posts
| ||
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
To clear up misconceptions in this thread: - Goliaths are large. - Their ground attack type is normal and air attack is explosive. - Their range is equal to a Dragoon's who has the Singularity Charge upgrade. - Their ground range is 6 and air range is 5 (upgraded to 8 with Charon [pronounced Care-un] Boosters). | ||
|
xmShake
United States1100 Posts
| ||
|
zer0das
United States8519 Posts
| ||
|
evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On July 27 2007 09:09 Pika Chu wrote: gol is medium, goon is large problem solved I'm going to spank you. Gol is large. | ||
|
evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On July 27 2007 09:40 flag wrote: Goliath is large Goliaths have the same ground range as upgraded goons. I'm going to spank you too. Gol has 5 ground range, goon has 6. Goon does descent vs hydras. Really. | ||
|
evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On July 27 2007 09:53 meRz wrote: Goliath is not large. Try fitting in 4 goons into a shuttle. Now try fitting in 4 goliaths into a dropship. Goliaths range upgrade makes them superior to goons as that upgrade reaches even furhter than goons range upgrade. ever tried fit 4 zealots in a shuttle? Ever tried fill 2 lurkers in an overlord? Oh god you guys are so silly1! :p | ||
|
Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
2: The fact that hydras and lings take way more damage from goliaths 3: goons do less against muta also 4: Goons are good pvz anyway. Basically gollies are better vs muta ling hydra and air but goons are better vs lurker and ultra Note that gollies are only 25 mineral cheaper than goons. | ||
|
evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
I think the reason why you feel goos are inferior is because goon has a warm up animation, and move slower, and retard AI. The controlling of dragoon has alot more to do with how comfortible you are with them than their stats. I'm very fond of dragoons in PvZ, you just have to take care of them better than goliaths. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32277 Posts
| ||
|
Reflex
Canada703 Posts
On July 27 2007 11:50 IntoTheWow wrote: Everyone be quiet. Excalibur_Z has spoken. W0rd. | ||
|
hefty
Denmark555 Posts
Goons firing animation must be added to it's cooldown before you have an idea of its rate of fire. Cooldown and attack animation are two different things, for example the ultra's cooldown is very low but its attack animation gives it a moderately slow rate of fire. | ||
|
Haemonculus
United States6980 Posts
Goons on the other hand are mentally handicapped. Speed zerglings get around them, the goons have a stroke, and things go poorly from there. Mutas pretty much kill goons and gols fairly effectively. | ||
|
Andaroo
Canada70 Posts
| ||
|
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
On July 27 2007 12:01 hefty wrote: One thing noone mentioned yet. Goons firing animation must be added to it's cooldown before you have an idea of its rate of fire. Cooldown and attack animation are two different things, for example the ultra's cooldown is very low but its attack animation gives it a moderately slow rate of fire. Actually, this is not true. Ultras have medium cooldown. The same applies to other units. For example, zealots have a cooldown of 22, which is close to 1 second on fastest. Zealot's attack animation is quite long, still you can see that the time between their attacks is very close to 1 second, so cooldown listed in stats usually is the actual cooldown time + animation length. For zealots, actual cooldown + animation time = 22. Some units behave weird in regards to cooldown, but they are mostly those who have variable cooldown times, like goons or hydras. | ||
|
ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
| ||
|
aokces
United States309 Posts
Small Medium Large = Light Medium Heavy This has nothing to do with transport size of course, just to be clear. | ||
|
flag
United States228 Posts
On July 27 2007 11:41 evanthebouncy! wrote: I'm going to spank you too. Gol has 5 ground range, goon has 6. In the future please check your facts before attempting to correct people | ||
|
Pika Chu
Romania2510 Posts
| ||
|
Zergraptor
Canada54 Posts
On July 27 2007 08:53 [terGTOss] wrote: Something that has always made me rather curious. Anyone who's ever tried mass gols vs Z would agree with me that gols just rape lings & hydras & lurkers & mutas & whatever (well, not muta/ling, but pretty much everything else), but why? If you do the same thing w/ goons u'd just focking die!! Consider that both goons and gols deal only explosive damage to muta and about 10 damage to ground (10 for goon, 12 for gol), and that goon has a longer life than gol (180 to 125), with goons having a cooldown rate being 30 and gol 22 (not that far off from each other), why are gol so strong yet goons so weak.. Anyone ever wonders why? All because one race lacks in little aspect slightly more than the other race does not mean some adjusting needs to be done or anything. They make up for it in other aspects of the game, examples would be protoss can expand faster in some games for more income, or just adding templar(s) to your dragoon fire power. Dragoons are strong enough to make a difference so don't talk has if they don't. I also wanted to say after reading that message I think you over rate gols vs zerg to be honest. Anyways that is my opinion. | ||
|
LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
| ||
|
FirstBorn
Romania3955 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Seriously now, Goons are way slower when shooting. And they're retarded. edit:This post just made me a goon. Is there some hidden humor here ? | ||
|
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
1) Several facts. To come out with a reasonable number, it's 3-4. 300-400 gas. 2) Upgrades. Seriously, you're gonna face a lot of low-damage units, you need the armor upgrade. You also need to upgrade weapons because if zerg outpaces you here, 12x3 = 36 becomes 11x3=33 which is not sufficient to kill a zergling. Yes, 4 hits instead of 3, which is a gross decrease. So, at early game it's 250 extra gas. 3) Charon booster. You will most likely face mutaling (even though don't overrate gols vs lurkers, they do well, but are not invincible), so you will need air range. 100 gas. 4) Obviously, to upgrade all this stuff, you will need dual armories and a machine shop. Another 150. C'mon, it's like 900 gas without making a SINGLE unit. Golies are nice vs zerg, the tech needed is not. | ||
|
[X]Ken~D
377 Posts
On July 27 2007 11:03 DukE wrote: the issue really here is, why did blizz fuck protoss over so badly with the overpriced shitty dragoons when they just as easily could have given us something better than goliaths During BW beta, Blizzard didn't want the dragoons to simply overpower the zealot (pvp if I can recall). Also during that era, Terran had a difficult time with dragoon harass. | ||
|
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
Stop bitching about dragoons. They are my favourite unit and surely deserve being. If you can't make them work, that's your problem. | ||
|
rpf
United States2705 Posts
| ||
|
In)Spire
United States1323 Posts
| ||
|
Sky101
United States1758 Posts
On July 27 2007 13:52 flag wrote: In the future please check your facts before attempting to correct people What are you, retarded? Goliaths have a range of 5. | ||
|
Polka
Sweden2 Posts
| ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28727 Posts
why do people answer without having a clue I think everything has been corrected although I couldnt even make myself read through the thread. however I will quickly go through the facts 1: goliaths are large 2: there are 3 different unit sizes in brood war one relates to how many units fit in a shuttle, one relates to how damage is dealt, one relates to how units fit through buildings for example: 4 zealots fit into 1 shuttle, yet they are small in regards to damage 8 scvs fit into dropship, also small in regards to damage, however regarding buildings, zealots are capable of fitting through some cracks which scvs are incapable of fitting through. thus, the zealot is both bigger, smaller, and the same size as scvs. but how many units fit into shuttles or dropships has almost nothing to do with damage dealt; zealots are small and goliaths are large yet both fit 4 into a dropship or shuttle. 3 : reasons why goliaths do better than goons this is a combination of instant fire, normal damage, and slightly faster shooting rate. that is, frankly, goliaths are only hardly better. after all, goons are actually used more than goliats against zerg.. however, they are significantly better against zerglings, because of normal damage, base damage of 12 (meaning they kill zerglings in 3 as opposed to 4 hits), and instant fire. goons waste a lot of shots, especially against units as weak as zerglings. but seriously guys if you're not certain about something, why would you answer questions regarding the subject? it makes no sense. | ||
|
terranmetal
Canada153 Posts
| ||
|
flag
United States228 Posts
On July 27 2007 17:12 Sky101 wrote: What are you, retarded? Goliaths have a range of 5. In the future please check your facts before attempting to correct people. Goliath have ground range of 6. | ||
|
5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On July 27 2007 18:13 flag wrote: In the future please check your facts before attempting to correct people. Goliath have ground range of 6. HOW DO I FAIL SO HARD AFTER DRONE'S POST? ![[image loading]](http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9893/goliathne9.jpg) Excuse me while I tempban myself. | ||
|
flag
United States228 Posts
When I say check the facts I don't mean go to some out dated site, I mean test it in the game since that is where it counts. Simple test incase you can't figure it out. Take a Goliath and shoot a vulture. Now take the vulture and shoot the goliath, you'll notice the vulture has to move forward before it shoots even though its range is 5. So once again please check your facts before you attempt to correct someone. | ||
|
ahk-gosu
Korea (South)2099 Posts
On July 27 2007 14:27 BluzMan wrote: Their main weakness is the gas load on your economy needed to support them. You need: 1) Several facts. To come out with a reasonable number, it's 3-4. 300-400 gas. 2) Upgrades. Seriously, you're gonna face a lot of low-damage units, you need the armor upgrade. You also need to upgrade weapons because if zerg outpaces you here, 12x3 = 36 becomes 11x3=33 which is not sufficient to kill a zergling. Yes, 4 hits instead of 3, which is a gross decrease. So, at early game it's 250 extra gas. 3) Charon booster. You will most likely face mutaling (even though don't overrate gols vs lurkers, they do well, but are not invincible), so you will need air range. 100 gas. 4) Obviously, to upgrade all this stuff, you will need dual armories and a machine shop. Another 150. C'mon, it's like 900 gas without making a SINGLE unit. Golies are nice vs zerg, the tech needed is not. i agree with bluz goons have 1 upgrade for ground to air and ground to ground range while goliaths only get air range. goons can be made in the gateway after c core has been made while goliaths require barracks factory and armory. every unit has advantages and disadvantages. some units have more benefits than others, yes, but no unit is useless. its simply a matter of covering your weaknesses and imposing your strengths. | ||
|
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On July 27 2007 19:09 5HITCOMBO wrote: HOW DO YOU FAIL SO HARD AFTER DRONE'S POST? Never post here again, please. It's six. SIX. I explained this already in my post. They were originally 5 but in patch 1.08 the range was increased to 6. Goliath: - Increased ground attack range. | ||
|
Sadist
United States7298 Posts
On July 27 2007 09:40 ShabZzoY! wrote: They dont have retarded AI HAH! | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28727 Posts
I'm very close to giving everyone who gave wrong information in this thread a tempban. in fact, I almost feel like I should spend some time looking through strategy forum threads if this is the standard. if you ask something starcraft related on these forums, the by far most knowledgeable starcraft forums on the internet, you should get a correct answer pretty quickly. not several wrong ones inducing a debate regarding which side is correct. if people give shitty and wrong responses in threads dealing with other issues, so be it.. that's not our field of expertise, people should be smart enough to ask other places if they're actually in serious doubt / need for help and not out to create a discussion.. but regarding factual brood war related information, there shouldn't be room for mistakes. | ||
|
Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
On July 27 2007 19:37 Liquid`Drone wrote: flag is correct, goliaths have a range of 6 I'm very close to giving everyone who gave wrong information in this thread a tempban. in fact, I almost feel like I should spend some time looking through strategy forum threads if this is the standard. if you ask something starcraft related on these forums, the by far most knowledgeable starcraft forums on the internet, you should get a correct answer pretty quickly. not several wrong ones inducing a debate regarding which side is correct. if people give shitty and wrong responses in threads dealing with other issues, so be it.. that's not our field of expertise, people should be smart enough to ask other places if they're actually in serious doubt / need for help and not out to create a discussion.. but regarding factual brood war related information, there shouldn't be room for mistakes. People should have heeded IntoTheWow's advice and stopped talking after I posted | ||
|
Liquid`Drone
Norway28727 Posts
and yeah, the first posts in the thread were cluttered with so much misinformation that I didn't even bother reading your post, which was of course dead on the money. | ||
|
.dragoon
United States749 Posts
| ||
|
RaiZ
2813 Posts
But it seems like sc ppl are getting more and more arrogant, and hardly admites they're wrong. Whatever. But please guys try not to be so sure of yourselves when stating facts... :[ | ||
|
Zanno
United States1484 Posts
On July 27 2007 11:03 DukE wrote: they didn't think things like projectile animations through, and they didn't think it through much in war3 eitherthe issue really here is, why did blizz fuck protoss over so badly with the overpriced shitty dragoons when they just as easily could have given us something better than goliaths goons do have one advantage in that they seem to be way better at capital antair, though this stopped mattering once mind control was added to the game. that +1 base armor is also a much bigger deal early game than it is by the time goliaths come out someone really needs to bring this issue up when sc2 beta is out, though it's been mostly addressed with the addition of so many lasers | ||
|
micronesia
United States24747 Posts
Perhaps someone should make their own version and have it quality checked by teamliquid? Like, basically copy the official compendium, then people point out mistakes due to patches/errors? It could be the official teamliquid compendium. | ||
|
BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
| ||
|
[jOyO]
United States920 Posts
| ||
| ||
