Something that has always made me rather curious. Anyone who's ever tried mass gols vs Z would agree with me that gols just rape lings & hydras & lurkers & mutas & whatever (well, not muta/ling, but pretty much everything else), but why? If you do the same thing w/ goons u'd just focking die!! Consider that both goons and gols deal only explosive damage to muta and about 10 damage to ground (10 for goon, 12 for gol), and that goon has a longer life than gol (180 to 125), with goons having a cooldown rate being 30 and gol 22 (not that far off from each other), why are gol so strong yet goons so weak.. Anyone ever wonders why?

aokces

United States309 Posts

July 27 2007 00:01 GMT

Gols are cheaper, and do more dps. I'm reading the same statistics as you are and it seems perfectly normal that gols would be more effective.

TheFoReveRwaR

United States10657 Posts

July 27 2007 00:04 GMT

Ums gols don't rape muta/ling/hydra at all.

22 compared to 30 is a pretty big firing rate difference actually. And another huge thing is that gols are a lot easier to micro vs lings and have a much longer range vs muta.

LuMiX

China5757 Posts

July 27 2007 00:04 GMT

goliaths are marines in that robocop enemy...of course they are better! they are just upgraded rines

Pika Chu

Romania2510 Posts

July 27 2007 00:09 GMT

gol is medium, goon is large
problem solved

SuperJongMan

Jamaica11586 Posts

July 27 2007 00:19 GMT

Golis also do normal damage which is 100000x more useful vs Zerg since they have very few large (4?) units.

Element)LoGiC

Canada1143 Posts

July 27 2007 00:34 GMT

1) Dragoons have bad damage distribution due to the fact their attack is not instant, while the goliaths is. Goliaths also do more damage to most of the units that zerg have.

2) Goliaths are cheaper.

3) Goliaths have farther range which allows them stack attacks better than dragoons.

ShabZzoY!

Great Britain760 Posts

July 27 2007 00:40 GMT

They have normal damage so more damage vs lings
They shoot instantly when doing move and shoot
They shoot fast
They dont have retarded AI

Basically its not just goli and goon comparison, its just that goons are really shit compared to how they are "on paper", i mean technically goons should compare well to hydras but in practice they just suck because of their slow attack and long attack animation, cumbersome movement/micro etc.

Someone said goli is medium. Its actually large, and golis dont "rape" hydras they just dont do badly. They do destroy pure lings simply because of the damage type and that they micro so well and fire quickly

flag

United States228 Posts

July 27 2007 00:40 GMT

On July 27 2007 09:09 Pika Chu wrote:
gol is medium, goon is large
problem solved

Goliath is large

On July 27 2007 09:34 Element)LoGiC wrote:
3) Goliaths have farther range which allows them stack attacks better than dragoons.

Goliaths have the same ground range as upgraded goons.

Chill

Calgary25990 Posts

July 27 2007 00:51 GMT

#10

On July 27 2007 08:53 [terGTOss] wrote:
Anyone who's ever tried mass gols vs Z would agree with me that gols just rape lings & hydras & lurkers & mutas & whatever (well, not muta/ling, but pretty much everything else)

Well allllllllllllrighty then.

merz

Sweden2760 Posts

July 27 2007 00:53 GMT

#11

Goliath is not large.

Try fitting in 4 goons into a shuttle.

Now try fitting in 4 goliaths into a dropship.

Goliaths range upgrade makes them superior to goons as that upgrade reaches even furhter than goons range upgrade.

azndsh

United States4447 Posts

July 27 2007 00:58 GMT

#12

On July 27 2007 09:53 meRz wrote:
Goliath is not large.

Try fitting in 4 goons into a shuttle.

Now try fitting in 4 goliaths into a dropship.

Goliaths range upgrade makes them superior to goons as that upgrade reaches even furhter than goons range upgrade.

This has been addressed at least 100 times. Unit size in transport is not the same thing as unit type in terms of damage taken.

Goon range upgrade is 4 to 6

Goliath range upgrade only affects air 5 to 8. It still has less groud range (5 vs. 6)

Goliaths kill zerglings in 3 hits, goons take 4 and have a dumber firing animation.

flag

United States228 Posts

July 27 2007 00:59 GMT

#13

Goliath is large http://battle.net/scc/terran/ustats.shtml. You could also just shoot a goliath with an explosive damage unit and see that it takes full damage.

Size in dropship has nothing to do with damage type size, for instance zealot is small and it takes 2 spots too.

Goliath's range upgrade only affects their air attack.

On July 27 2007 09:58 azndsh wrote:
Goliath range upgrade only affects air 5 to 8. It still has less groud range (5 vs. 6)

I think goliath's initial ground and air range is 6 (air might start as 5 still). It was increased in a patch and never they updated the unit stats page.

BluzMan

Russian Federation4235 Posts

July 27 2007 01:02 GMT

#14

Dropship size doesn't correlate with unit size and I even made a thread about that. Goliath is large.

The reason is simple:

Goliath's ground weapon reaches the target instantly, whereas goon's takes some time to fly. This leads to goons doing many shots that reach already dead targets, effective wasting the shots. This mostly happens with lings. Goons also have explosive vs goliath's normal, so 50% damage vs lings. Plus, golies have gross anti-air with charon and grades. However, neither are majorly used vs zerg because of the muta timings - you just can't amass a force large enough to counter muta in time because of the tech/need to defend vs lings.

Goons are, however, much more often used in PvZ than golies, so the thread question is somewhat stupid. They are very durable, don't have a rotation time (so that shoot&move micro is MORE effective with them than with golies) and are generally very universal in use. Not to mention they are (or at least seem to be) somewhat faster than golies which means a lot. They also produce from gates which don't cost gas (much unlike golies) and that is also an important factor.

merz

Sweden2760 Posts

July 27 2007 01:02 GMT

#15

Somebody call the police I just got raped and humiliated in a discussion

kidd

United States2848 Posts

July 27 2007 01:12 GMT

#16

Golliaths do the maximum amount of damage to all units thats why they would seem better.

Goons are best against large units iirc.

Hittegods

Stockholm4641 Posts

July 27 2007 01:40 GMT

#17

On July 27 2007 10:02 BluzMan wrote:
Goons are, however, much more often used in PvZ than golies

Yeah, goliaths seem to be used very seldom in PvZ

Duke

United States1106 Posts

July 27 2007 02:03 GMT

#18

the issue really here is, why did blizz fuck protoss over so badly with the overpriced shitty dragoons when they just as easily could have given us something better than goliaths

Excalibur_Z

United States12240 Posts

July 27 2007 02:10 GMT

#19

A shorter cooldown, even if 8 only looks appears to be a small difference, still means Goliaths shoot 25% more often. Their ground attack is instant, whereas Dragoons need to open their shutters to fire. Their air attack is even more potent when used with hit-and-run due to the instant launch of the missiles and the much longer range which grants a greater margin of error regarding range estimation. Goliaths also need 3 hits to kill a Zergling compared to a Dragoon's 4. The rotation of a Goliath's turrets for firing in a hit-and-run situation is overall faster than a Dragoon's ability to hit-and-run.

To clear up misconceptions in this thread:
- Goliaths are large.
- Their ground attack type is normal and air attack is explosive.
- Their range is equal to a Dragoon's who has the Singularity Charge upgrade.
- Their ground range is 6 and air range is 5 (upgraded to 8 with Charon [pronounced Care-un] Boosters).