On August 01 2019 09:12 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: This is gold. Flash is really like an anime/manga. I remember old boy episode where they revealed Flash's practice nickname is Kira. And those interviews where JD recounted how he first heard about Flash after a teammate lost to him in OSL prelims.. and then that time where Flash recalled a time when he was still an amateur and Bisu destroyed him in a practice session, so he had to start working harder..
On July 30 2019 16:20 Antisocialmunky wrote: I remember at the height of Flash's dominance, some of the players in KT said they couldn't remember how to win after practicing with Flash. Kinda explained all the Flash reverse all kills during the 'Child Labor Terran' era.
Haha, I think that's Hoejja: "If you play 10 games in a day with Flash, you forget how to win a game. You forget how to win! He's that good." And there's the classic from Violet: "After I practiced with Flash, I slumped for around a month."
Its kind of funny, Bisu beat Savior and Flash. Savior that nearly destroyed Broodwar as he sank into total apathy while Flash used it to become the next Bonjwa.
Bisu kill one bonjwa and created another.
No one calls Flash a bonjwa. He is just God. The bonjwa line and discussion ended with Savior, or perhaps more accurately with the failure of Bisu to continue it, and the duality between Jaedong and Flash thereafter.
I've been asking myself this: Do they literally say "god" in Korean for Flash? And if, is it the word for the monotheistic or polytheistic notion of god? or one where it's not really distinguishable?
On August 01 2019 14:11 Highgamer wrote: I've been asking myself this: Do they literally say "god" in Korean for Flash? And if, is it the word for the monotheistic or polytheistic notion of god? or one where it's not really distinguishable?
they just all him god in english (갓) as a joke, not as korean definition of god like "신".
On August 01 2019 09:12 SlayerS_BunkiE wrote: This is gold. Flash is really like an anime/manga. I remember old boy episode where they revealed Flash's practice nickname is Kira. And those interviews where JD recounted how he first heard about Flash after a teammate lost to him in OSL prelims.. and then that time where Flash recalled a time when he was still an amateur and Bisu destroyed him in a practice session, so he had to start working harder..
On July 30 2019 16:20 Antisocialmunky wrote: I remember at the height of Flash's dominance, some of the players in KT said they couldn't remember how to win after practicing with Flash. Kinda explained all the Flash reverse all kills during the 'Child Labor Terran' era.
Haha, I think that's Hoejja: "If you play 10 games in a day with Flash, you forget how to win a game. You forget how to win! He's that good." And there's the classic from Violet: "After I practiced with Flash, I slumped for around a month."
Its kind of funny, Bisu beat Savior and Flash. Savior that nearly destroyed Broodwar as he sank into total apathy while Flash used it to become the next Bonjwa.
Bisu kill one bonjwa and created another.
No one calls Flash a bonjwa. He is just God. The bonjwa line and discussion ended with Savior, or perhaps more accurately with the failure of Bisu to continue it, and the duality between Jaedong and Flash thereafter.
Wow this thread is an interesting read!
@Jealous: It is more accurate but it would be less poetic to say "Bisu kill one bonjwa and created god(?)"
@ASM: We could say that Bisu revolutionised their lives in two ultimate ways.
It's hilarious to think of Bisu as the creator of both the fallen angel and god of BW, because of the bloody joker that he is on Afreeca hahaha.
This thread reminds me why Flash is such a fun and interesting addition to the scene, and that I can't help but feel bad when he is prejudged as bland and lacking in character. I mean, come on, how can I guy who uses a ruler and chugs pocari sweat be boring? If you want to cheer against him for winning too much, I wouldnt blame you, but at least go ahead and actually say that!
And also, despite how this paints him as a genius player, he went through a pretty tough two years after his first championship. He didnt become god/bonjwa overnight as some would believe. His story has more defeats and challenges than a lot of people actually remember.
And also, despite how this paints him as a genius player, he went through a pretty tough two years after his first championship. He didnt become god/bonjwa overnight as some would believe. His story has more defeats and challenges than a lot of people actually remember.
Well, that's because these defeats drown in a sea of wins... Flash was just measured by another standard not long after the start of his career. First like "will this middle-schooler win again today?", then "Flash surely is the favored here", later like "wtf, someone beat Flash?". His losses just quickly became something noteworthy.
If by first championship you mean the 2008 Bacchus OSL in march 2008, the next two years are only "rough" by Flash standard. From april 2008 to april 2009 he had this record: 111 wins - 53 losses (67.68%)
A "rough" year for Flash, an exceptional year for almost anyone else.
And for the rest of 2009, until shortly before his 2nd OSL in january 2010, he did this: 76 wins - 24 losses (76.00%)
On August 02 2019 04:06 Puosu wrote: Iirc. people here thought of Flash as a cheesy terran at first. I remember there being a quick rax all-in he did on monty hall...
Yeah, all we knew about Flash back then is that he cheesed several big name players, beating them. I also distinctly remember watch Klazart cast that Flash vs Bisu game on Monty Hall.
I think only after Flash beat Boxer on Python in a longer game people started to respect Flash. And then he was suddenly there, as if he always had been a good player.
And also, despite how this paints him as a genius player, he went through a pretty tough two years after his first championship. He didnt become god/bonjwa overnight as some would believe. His story has more defeats and challenges than a lot of people actually remember.
Well, that's because these defeats drown in a sea of wins... Flash was just measured by another standard not long after the start of his career. First like "will this middle-schooler win again today?", then "Flash surely is the favored here", later like "wtf, someone beat Flash?". His losses just quickly became something noteworthy.
If by first championship you mean the 2008 Bacchus OSL in march 2008, the next two years are only "rough" by Flash standard. From april 2008 to april 2009 he had this record: 111 wins - 53 losses (67.68%)
A "rough" year for Flash, an exceptional year for almost anyone else.
And for the rest of 2009, until shortly before his 2nd OSL in january 2010, he did this: 76 wins - 24 losses (76.00%)
(Source: TLPD)
You can choose to look at just stats, but the thing was, he had almost no real believers back then. There are always players who have high win rates but unable to win anything. The only thing Flash had going for him was that he already won once. But aside from that, a lot of people already saw him as a "flash in the pan" -- a player whose style has been figured out, won one title, and will now fade into mediocrity as far as individual leagues were concerned. And when you watch his uninspired losses in tournaments, it wasn't an unreasonable claim.
On August 02 2019 05:25 Muliphein wrote: Yeah, all we knew about Flash back then is that he cheesed several big name players, beating them. I also distinctly remember watch Klazart cast that Flash vs Bisu game on Monty Hall.
I think only after Flash beat Boxer on Python in a longer game people started to respect Flash. And then he was suddenly there, as if he always had been a good player.
Jaedong' rise was a lot more gradual.
wtf are you on about, boxer beat flash. I remember that day like it was yesterday - boxer did same insane bio timing vs nal_ra on nemesis (which was by far a P favoured map) and then came back for the ace match to save the day for ace.
flash began to gain wide respect when he figured out how to beat storks carrier build by optimising oov's 2-1 timing push to the thinnest of margins.
On August 02 2019 05:25 Muliphein wrote: Yeah, all we knew about Flash back then is that he cheesed several big name players, beating them. I also distinctly remember watch Klazart cast that Flash vs Bisu game on Monty Hall.
I think only after Flash beat Boxer on Python in a longer game people started to respect Flash. And then he was suddenly there, as if he always had been a good player.
Jaedong' rise was a lot more gradual.
wtf are you on about, boxer beat flash. I remember that day like it was yesterday - boxer did same insane bio timing vs nal_ra on nemesis (which was by far a P favoured map) and then came back for the ace match to save the day for ace.
flash began to gain wide respect when he figured out how to beat storks carrier build by optimising oov's 2-1 timing push to the thinnest of margins.
On August 02 2019 05:25 Muliphein wrote: Yeah, all we knew about Flash back then is that he cheesed several big name players, beating them. I also distinctly remember watch Klazart cast that Flash vs Bisu game on Monty Hall.
I think only after Flash beat Boxer on Python in a longer game people started to respect Flash. And then he was suddenly there, as if he always had been a good player.
Jaedong' rise was a lot more gradual.
wtf are you on about, boxer beat flash. I remember that day like it was yesterday - boxer did same insane bio timing vs nal_ra on nemesis (which was by far a P favoured map) and then came back for the ace match to save the day for ace.
flash began to gain wide respect when he figured out how to beat storks carrier build by optimising oov's 2-1 timing push to the thinnest of margins.
And also, despite how this paints him as a genius player, he went through a pretty tough two years after his first championship. He didnt become god/bonjwa overnight as some would believe. His story has more defeats and challenges than a lot of people actually remember.
Well, that's because these defeats drown in a sea of wins... Flash was just measured by another standard not long after the start of his career. First like "will this middle-schooler win again today?", then "Flash surely is the favored here", later like "wtf, someone beat Flash?". His losses just quickly became something noteworthy.
If by first championship you mean the 2008 Bacchus OSL in march 2008, the next two years are only "rough" by Flash standard. From april 2008 to april 2009 he had this record: 111 wins - 53 losses (67.68%)
A "rough" year for Flash, an exceptional year for almost anyone else.
And for the rest of 2009, until shortly before his 2nd OSL in january 2010, he did this: 76 wins - 24 losses (76.00%)
(Source: TLPD)
You can choose to look at just stats, but the thing was, he had almost no real believers back then. There are always players who have high win rates but unable to win anything. The only thing Flash had going for him was that he already won once. But aside from that, a lot of people already saw him as a "flash in the pan" -- a player whose style has been figured out, won one title, and will now fade into mediocrity as far as individual leagues were concerned. And when you watch his uninspired losses in tournaments, it wasn't an unreasonable claim.
Thanks for the insights. I wouldn't say that there is only one correct judgement about his career, I think it's a matter of perspective. Admittedly, only the stats would be a little one-sided, but then they say "the record speaks for itself". I didn't follow pro BW before 2011/12 (last proleague/starleagues-ish) so I cannot re-grasp how "the public" (surely manifold at any time) experienced Flash's performance over these months post his first OSL-win. Obviously watching sports feels differently if you wait for the games weak after weak, fill the time in between reading and talking about what will happen, hype up big games, then analyze what happened at length afterwards. That creates a reality of its own, but what people perceive at the time of events is pretty much bound to be a more close-up, rushed experience, oftentimes even warped by preferences and under-informed as far as the big picture is concerned. I have re-watched all of Flash's games as VoDs, and it's amazing how a player of his age piled up wins and notoriety. If he didn't win all the big games, well he lost to some big names back then. Now, when re-watching those Vods, obviously I knew what would be coming from 2010 onwards, but in hind-sight you can esteem some things he did even better than at the time.
And also, despite how this paints him as a genius player, he went through a pretty tough two years after his first championship. He didnt become god/bonjwa overnight as some would believe. His story has more defeats and challenges than a lot of people actually remember.
Well, that's because these defeats drown in a sea of wins... Flash was just measured by another standard not long after the start of his career. First like "will this middle-schooler win again today?", then "Flash surely is the favored here", later like "wtf, someone beat Flash?". His losses just quickly became something noteworthy.
If by first championship you mean the 2008 Bacchus OSL in march 2008, the next two years are only "rough" by Flash standard. From april 2008 to april 2009 he had this record: 111 wins - 53 losses (67.68%)
A "rough" year for Flash, an exceptional year for almost anyone else.
And for the rest of 2009, until shortly before his 2nd OSL in january 2010, he did this: 76 wins - 24 losses (76.00%)
(Source: TLPD)
You can choose to look at just stats, but the thing was, he had almost no real believers back then. There are always players who have high win rates but unable to win anything. The only thing Flash had going for him was that he already won once. But aside from that, a lot of people already saw him as a "flash in the pan" -- a player whose style has been figured out, won one title, and will now fade into mediocrity as far as individual leagues were concerned. And when you watch his uninspired losses in tournaments, it wasn't an unreasonable claim.
Thanks for the insights. I wouldn't say that there is only one correct judgement about his career, I think it's a matter of perspective. Admittedly, only the stats would be a little one-sided, but then they say "the record speaks for itself". I didn't follow pro BW before 2011/12 (last proleague/starleagues-ish) so I cannot re-grasp how "the public" (surely manifold at any time) experienced Flash's performance over these months post his first OSL-win. Obviously watching sports feels differently if you wait for the games weak after weak, fill the time in between reading and talking about what will happen, hype up big games, then analyze what happened at length afterwards. That creates a reality of its own, but what people perceive at the time of events is pretty much bound to be a more close-up, rushed experience, oftentimes even warped by preferences and under-informed as far as the big picture is concerned. I have re-watched all of Flash's games as VoDs, and it's amazing how a player of his age piled up wins and notoriety. If he didn't win all the big games, well he lost to some big names back then. Now, when re-watching those Vods, obviously I knew what would be coming from 2010 onwards, but in hind-sight you can esteem some things he did even better than at the time.
Yes of course everyone would have their own perspective of Flash's career, and it is fun to talk about each of those views as we recount the past. The thing about stats is that Flash is a monster at proleague, both because he is good and also because his team sucked. Add winners league to that and you get a lot of wins. But individual leagues are where legacies are really made and Flash just really fell short in this area. How many times is this kid gonna lose to two hatch muta and going 14cc in TvT? He seemed uninspired and very one dimensional.
I would think no one then, aside from maybe delusional Flash fans, would rank Flash as a top 5 player. You would be hard pressed to rank him inside top 10.
TL reactions from his second championship said it all. A lot who only started watching recently back then only saw Flash as this beast who kept trashing everyone. They were scratching their heads as to why Flash broke down crying after winning what seemed to be a very very dominant and easy run. It is similar to what we see now when we watch Flash play and win.
And also, despite how this paints him as a genius player, he went through a pretty tough two years after his first championship. He didnt become god/bonjwa overnight as some would believe. His story has more defeats and challenges than a lot of people actually remember.
Well, that's because these defeats drown in a sea of wins... Flash was just measured by another standard not long after the start of his career. First like "will this middle-schooler win again today?", then "Flash surely is the favored here", later like "wtf, someone beat Flash?". His losses just quickly became something noteworthy.
If by first championship you mean the 2008 Bacchus OSL in march 2008, the next two years are only "rough" by Flash standard. From april 2008 to april 2009 he had this record: 111 wins - 53 losses (67.68%)
A "rough" year for Flash, an exceptional year for almost anyone else.
And for the rest of 2009, until shortly before his 2nd OSL in january 2010, he did this: 76 wins - 24 losses (76.00%)
(Source: TLPD)
You can choose to look at just stats, but the thing was, he had almost no real believers back then. There are always players who have high win rates but unable to win anything. The only thing Flash had going for him was that he already won once. But aside from that, a lot of people already saw him as a "flash in the pan" -- a player whose style has been figured out, won one title, and will now fade into mediocrity as far as individual leagues were concerned. And when you watch his uninspired losses in tournaments, it wasn't an unreasonable claim.
Thanks for the insights. I wouldn't say that there is only one correct judgement about his career, I think it's a matter of perspective. Admittedly, only the stats would be a little one-sided, but then they say "the record speaks for itself". I didn't follow pro BW before 2011/12 (last proleague/starleagues-ish) so I cannot re-grasp how "the public" (surely manifold at any time) experienced Flash's performance over these months post his first OSL-win. Obviously watching sports feels differently if you wait for the games weak after weak, fill the time in between reading and talking about what will happen, hype up big games, then analyze what happened at length afterwards. That creates a reality of its own, but what people perceive at the time of events is pretty much bound to be a more close-up, rushed experience, oftentimes even warped by preferences and under-informed as far as the big picture is concerned. I have re-watched all of Flash's games as VoDs, and it's amazing how a player of his age piled up wins and notoriety. If he didn't win all the big games, well he lost to some big names back then. Now, when re-watching those Vods, obviously I knew what would be coming from 2010 onwards, but in hind-sight you can esteem some things he did even better than at the time.
Yes of course everyone would have their own perspective of Flash's career, and it is fun to talk about each of those views as we recount the past. The thing about stats is that Flash is a monster at proleague, both because he is good and also because his team sucked. Add winners league to that and you get a lot of wins. But individual leagues are where legacies are really made and Flash just really fell short in this area. How many times is this kid gonna lose to two hatch muta and going 14cc in TvT? He seemed uninspired and very one dimensional.
I would think no one then, aside from maybe delusional Flash fans, would rank Flash as a top 5 player. You would be hard pressed to rank him inside top 10.
TL reactions from his second championship said it all. A lot who only started watching recently back then only saw Flash as this beast who kept trashing everyone. They were scratching their heads as to why Flash broke down crying after winning what seemed to be a very very dominant and easy run. It is similar to what we see now when we watch Flash play and win.
Fun fact, when Flash was going 14cc frequently, his win rate with it was the same as when he didn't go 14cc.
EPT
