I have written out the build order for any curious people. There are tabs at the bottom of the page so make sure you are on TvZ builds and scroll down to it.
Perhaps with better scouting/building placement he could have lost less mining time from Larva's initial attack. Nada should have done a better job at hiding his ghost. He upgraded ocular implants, but he actually set off the nuke 2 seconds before it even finished. He had irradiate, but he chose to save energy for defensive matrix on the ghost. Maybe irradiating mutas + going for cloak instead would have been a better decision. He should have put his vessels over the ghost so the mutas couldn't target it.
After a certain point I stopped writing SCVs and marines, just because it was too tedious and would make the BO too long. Basically don't stop making them.
If you can think of any other iconic, unique, or useful build order examples please let me know and I will try to write them out.
On January 17 2019 14:27 SCWes wrote: I have written out the build order for any curious people. There are tabs at the bottom of the page so make sure you are on TvZ builds and scroll down to it.
Wow thanks how are you able to extract this data? The replays aren't typically available right?
On January 17 2019 14:27 SCWes wrote: I have written out the build order for any curious people. There are tabs at the bottom of the page so make sure you are on TvZ builds and scroll down to it.
Wow thanks how are you able to extract this data? The replays aren't typically available right?
Yea, replays aren't available as far as I know. I just watch resources, current supply and maximum supply, look closely at the mini map, watch for production animations and so on. There are a few tricks like instead of watching when a supply depot goes down I might watch for the supply maximum to change and then subtract 25 seconds to figure out when they put it down. Sometimes you watch for resources to go down, but not the supply count or anything on the mini map, so it can let you know an upgrade has started.
I can't find a VOD, but I think FBH successfully used the same build vs Notforu at Italian Esports Open. So it's probably not the Nada's invention, just some crazy build that can work sometimes.
I don't think that cloak would've been better than ocular implants. There were plenty of overlords at the entrance. Also, with that many mutas, Larva could easily have sniped it with a single muta volley without a d-matrix, or burned through just one dmatrix with mutas alone, so I don't think it's a mistake.
That being said, upon reviewing the VOD, the nuke was ~3s away from landing. I'm actually less sure that hiding the ghost with vessels would necessarily have worked since every unit that has targeted it already would still be targeting (mutas, assuming larva could target before the vessels got over it), and you can't dm it a second time while hiding.
Ocular implants is interesting because it would've delayed the nuke by 2s, but the ghost would be about 0.5s further away, so the question is if he could've protected the ghost for 2.5s.
There was an ultra that spawned and probably got off 3? swipes early on the ghost. If it was hidden in the MM ball that's up to 80 damage that's negated.
The next zergling wave is where it gets interesting though. That's ~2 zerglings attacking the ghost for ~2s, summing up to about 60 damage. Assuming he could've walled with medics/marines for 4.5s extra (2 seconds later on nuke, 2.5 more seconds to let the nuke land, 0.5s extra travel) that's up to 120 total damage negated.
At the end, only 3 mutas were alive(extremely red based on how fast they died when they reentered the fight, likely to die in the next second or two). This means that the ghost would realistically only have taken at most 60 HP more in muta damage. If the mm could've protected the ghost from ~60 damage or so with ocular implants, the nuke lands.
I'm fairly confident that Nada would've been able to win this game waiting 2s for ocular implants.
On January 17 2019 17:15 IntoTheEmo wrote: I was confused when the Ghost neither had Cloak nor range when launching the nuke. Nada really botched that if this is true.
Nada demonstrates the build successfully on ladder while explaining it. He also did an analysis on his ASL game in another vid, where i believe he said he was nervous and pointed out his mistakes.
Yeah it was more like range would've helped him keep the Ghost behind more so it wouldn't get smacked by an Ultralisk. Get Cloak IMO and Optical Flare the Overlords :D
Tastosis always gets so hung up on the past. I love them but they were going on about how super OSL winner Nada doesn't get nervous. It was a risky build and he hadn't played a televised match in ages, I'm not surprised that he was. Everyone wanted him to win and he knew it.
On January 17 2019 18:02 Amui wrote: That's awesome work to catch the ocular upgrade.
I don't think that cloak would've been better than ocular implants. There were plenty of overlords at the entrance. Also, with that many mutas, Larva could easily have sniped it with a single muta volley without a d-matrix, or burned through just one dmatrix with mutas alone, so I don't think it's a mistake.
That being said, upon reviewing the VOD, the nuke was ~3s away from landing. I'm actually less sure that hiding the ghost with vessels would necessarily have worked since every unit that has targeted it already would still be targeting (mutas, assuming larva could target before the vessels got over it), and you can't dm it a second time while hiding.
Ocular implants is interesting because it would've delayed the nuke by 2s, but the ghost would be about 0.5s further away, so the question is if he could've protected the ghost for 2.5s.
There was an ultra that spawned and probably got off 3? swipes early on the ghost. If it was hidden in the MM ball that's up to 80 damage that's negated.
The next zergling wave is where it gets interesting though. That's ~2 zerglings attacking the ghost for ~2s, summing up to about 60 damage. Assuming he could've walled with medics/marines for 4.5s extra (2 seconds later on nuke, 2.5 more seconds to let the nuke land, 0.5s extra travel) that's up to 120 total damage negated.
At the end, only 3 mutas were alive(extremely red based on how fast they died when they reentered the fight, likely to die in the next second or two). This means that the ghost would realistically only have taken at most 60 HP more in muta damage. If the mm could've protected the ghost from ~60 damage or so with ocular implants, the nuke lands.
I'm fairly confident that Nada would've been able to win this game waiting 2s for ocular implants.
I went to reproduce this immediately after I saw the game. I too went for the range upgrade instead of cloak. Getting cloak takes so long and is a waste of resources like you said with the density of overlords. My concern was outranging sunkens. My question since I didn't test it, do ghosts out range them without the upgrade? If so, would it be easy to do the sunken trick to hit the ghost regardless?
On a side note, does anyone remember that Nada lost a random dropship of marines in the bear cage by the natural? Does anyone know what he was thinking here. I think if only he saved the dropship and hit the island during the nuke attack, that it would have been a game winning move.
Judging by how late the ghost died during the first attempt, wasn't it a case of protecting the ghost better by blocking it with medics like he had done during the second successful attempt?
On January 17 2019 18:02 Amui wrote: That's awesome work to catch the ocular upgrade.
I don't think that cloak would've been better than ocular implants. There were plenty of overlords at the entrance. Also, with that many mutas, Larva could easily have sniped it with a single muta volley without a d-matrix, or burned through just one dmatrix with mutas alone, so I don't think it's a mistake.
That being said, upon reviewing the VOD, the nuke was ~3s away from landing. I'm actually less sure that hiding the ghost with vessels would necessarily have worked since every unit that has targeted it already would still be targeting (mutas, assuming larva could target before the vessels got over it), and you can't dm it a second time while hiding.
Ocular implants is interesting because it would've delayed the nuke by 2s, but the ghost would be about 0.5s further away, so the question is if he could've protected the ghost for 2.5s.
There was an ultra that spawned and probably got off 3? swipes early on the ghost. If it was hidden in the MM ball that's up to 80 damage that's negated.
The next zergling wave is where it gets interesting though. That's ~2 zerglings attacking the ghost for ~2s, summing up to about 60 damage. Assuming he could've walled with medics/marines for 4.5s extra (2 seconds later on nuke, 2.5 more seconds to let the nuke land, 0.5s extra travel) that's up to 120 total damage negated.
At the end, only 3 mutas were alive(extremely red based on how fast they died when they reentered the fight, likely to die in the next second or two). This means that the ghost would realistically only have taken at most 60 HP more in muta damage. If the mm could've protected the ghost from ~60 damage or so with ocular implants, the nuke lands.
I'm fairly confident that Nada would've been able to win this game waiting 2s for ocular implants.
I went to reproduce this immediately after I saw the game. I too went for the range upgrade instead of cloak. Getting cloak takes so long and is a waste of resources like you said with the density of overlords. My concern was outranging sunkens. My question since I didn't test it, do ghosts out range them without the upgrade? If so, would it be easy to do the sunken trick to hit the ghost regardless?
On a side note, does anyone remember that Nada lost a random dropship of marines in the bear cage by the natural? Does anyone know what he was thinking here. I think if only he saved the dropship and hit the island during the nuke attack, that it would have been a game winning move.
According to liquipedia personal cloaking only takes 50 seconds, but ocular implants takes 105, so I don't understand why you say it takes so long? Ghosts naturally outrange sunkens without ocular implants.
On January 17 2019 23:07 JieXian wrote: Judging by how late the ghost died during the first attempt, wasn't it a case of protecting the ghost better by blocking it with medics like he had done during the second successful attempt?
On January 17 2019 18:02 Amui wrote: That's awesome work to catch the ocular upgrade.
I don't think that cloak would've been better than ocular implants. There were plenty of overlords at the entrance. Also, with that many mutas, Larva could easily have sniped it with a single muta volley without a d-matrix, or burned through just one dmatrix with mutas alone, so I don't think it's a mistake.
That being said, upon reviewing the VOD, the nuke was ~3s away from landing. I'm actually less sure that hiding the ghost with vessels would necessarily have worked since every unit that has targeted it already would still be targeting (mutas, assuming larva could target before the vessels got over it), and you can't dm it a second time while hiding.
Ocular implants is interesting because it would've delayed the nuke by 2s, but the ghost would be about 0.5s further away, so the question is if he could've protected the ghost for 2.5s.
There was an ultra that spawned and probably got off 3? swipes early on the ghost. If it was hidden in the MM ball that's up to 80 damage that's negated.
The next zergling wave is where it gets interesting though. That's ~2 zerglings attacking the ghost for ~2s, summing up to about 60 damage. Assuming he could've walled with medics/marines for 4.5s extra (2 seconds later on nuke, 2.5 more seconds to let the nuke land, 0.5s extra travel) that's up to 120 total damage negated.
At the end, only 3 mutas were alive(extremely red based on how fast they died when they reentered the fight, likely to die in the next second or two). This means that the ghost would realistically only have taken at most 60 HP more in muta damage. If the mm could've protected the ghost from ~60 damage or so with ocular implants, the nuke lands.
I'm fairly confident that Nada would've been able to win this game waiting 2s for ocular implants.
I went to reproduce this immediately after I saw the game. I too went for the range upgrade instead of cloak. Getting cloak takes so long and is a waste of resources like you said with the density of overlords. My concern was outranging sunkens. My question since I didn't test it, do ghosts out range them without the upgrade? If so, would it be easy to do the sunken trick to hit the ghost regardless?
On a side note, does anyone remember that Nada lost a random dropship of marines in the bear cage by the natural? Does anyone know what he was thinking here. I think if only he saved the dropship and hit the island during the nuke attack, that it would have been a game winning move.
According to liquipedia personal cloaking only takes 50 seconds, but ocular implants takes 105, so I don't understand why you say it takes so long? Ghosts naturally outrange sunkens without ocular implants.
More so that it takes so long for so little benefit. And that I had done revisions where I got cloak second/additional. I never attempted cloak first. Good point though, I never looked at the upgrades in time comparison to judge one over the other.
On January 17 2019 18:02 Amui wrote: That's awesome work to catch the ocular upgrade.
I don't think that cloak would've been better than ocular implants. There were plenty of overlords at the entrance. Also, with that many mutas, Larva could easily have sniped it with a single muta volley without a d-matrix, or burned through just one dmatrix with mutas alone, so I don't think it's a mistake.
That being said, upon reviewing the VOD, the nuke was ~3s away from landing. I'm actually less sure that hiding the ghost with vessels would necessarily have worked since every unit that has targeted it already would still be targeting (mutas, assuming larva could target before the vessels got over it), and you can't dm it a second time while hiding.
Ocular implants is interesting because it would've delayed the nuke by 2s, but the ghost would be about 0.5s further away, so the question is if he could've protected the ghost for 2.5s.
There was an ultra that spawned and probably got off 3? swipes early on the ghost. If it was hidden in the MM ball that's up to 80 damage that's negated.
The next zergling wave is where it gets interesting though. That's ~2 zerglings attacking the ghost for ~2s, summing up to about 60 damage. Assuming he could've walled with medics/marines for 4.5s extra (2 seconds later on nuke, 2.5 more seconds to let the nuke land, 0.5s extra travel) that's up to 120 total damage negated.
At the end, only 3 mutas were alive(extremely red based on how fast they died when they reentered the fight, likely to die in the next second or two). This means that the ghost would realistically only have taken at most 60 HP more in muta damage. If the mm could've protected the ghost from ~60 damage or so with ocular implants, the nuke lands.
I'm fairly confident that Nada would've been able to win this game waiting 2s for ocular implants.
On a side note, does anyone remember that Nada lost a random dropship of marines in the bear cage by the natural? Does anyone know what he was thinking here. I think if only he saved the dropship and hit the island during the nuke attack, that it would have been a game winning move.
when watching the game live, i thought it was a tactic done on purpose to lure the mutalisks away from his main army so that he could move it towards larva's base with the ghost without being detected.
EPT
Great stuff!
Fast Nuke
