On November 07 2018 00:42 Elroi wrote: As always I have to come in here and argue Jaedong should be higher. I said this last time, but I don't think willfully skipping a tournament should mean very much for the power rank. The power rank is (or at least was) never about who has the best results right now, its more like who are the scariest players right now. And Jeadong is one of the absolute scariest players.
Thanks for the ranking though, Big Fan!
Glad you enjoyed the read, but Ty2 did this one and FlaShFTW did the previous ones. I just did the editing and publishing ^^
On November 07 2018 01:28 Alpha-NP- wrote: Everyone used to say old island maps favored P in PvT but I never read a convincing argument.
Sparkle definitely favored T in TvP with all Terrans going Wraith/Valks against Corsairs.
I thought Effort’s ASL6 interview was interesting when he said the best PvZ player he feared the most was Mini. Mini must be amazing online but I agree he chokes in tournaments every time. He sounds like a poor loser that can’t mentally get past his early game mistakes.
I always like Best a lot and I think he is underrated. Can letmelose tell us something about how Best playstyle is different from Rain, Snow, Mini, and Shuttle? Thanks.
Every player has their unique footprint, and no single person can fully gather all their nuances to their game, but I'll try listing what I've read on the playstyles, and some of my own thoughts on the matter:
1) BeSt: The best build optimizer the protoss race has arguably ever seen. His probe count optimization, and meticulous detail to the builds are ridiculously refined. While he doesn't have the game changing movement of SnOw, or the piercing plays of Mini, he has the most highly developed macro-management set up out of any protoss out there. On maps that demand less orthodox macro-management play, and ask more technical plays with units such as carriers, his greatest strength as a player is nullified, and he seems much weaker as a result.
2) Rain: I think he is the most well balanced protoss in the scene right now. He has decent multi-tasking, good macro-management, fantastic read on situations, and breaks the game down in a methodical manner. I think he has more in common with fellow SK Telecom T1 protoss players such as BeSt, or Bisu (all of whom are known for their solid macro-management), than more playmaking protoss players such as SnOw.
3) SnOw: I personally think he makes the most out of his units, as if he is playing an RPG game. He may not have the absolute best unit micro-management (although it is very good when confined to small scale armies), but he knows how to maximize their playmaking potential, especially within the protoss-versus-terran match-up. He knows how to abuse the terran units with his own key units better than probably any player out there. He specializes in playmaking units such as reavers, and carriers. SnOw is perhaps the only protoss that makes me feel like the protoss race out-ranges the terran race with how he abuses certain angles or terrains.
He doesn't have the best macro-management fundamentals, and his build orders aren't perfectly optimized, but he is able to create situations for himself (most with excellent unit movement) where his lack of macro-management prowess becomes less of an issue. However, this means he is prone to swings in form, and while he is my favourite protoss player to watch, I think Rain has a higher skill ceiling than SnOw.
4) Mini: I think Mini has some of the best small scale micro-management execution out of any protoss players out there. His probe, zealot, and reaver micro-management are second to none, and are potent enough to heavily swing the games in his favour. SnOw personally rates Mini very highly due to his ability to micro-manage his units to perfection, but I don't think he is as savy as SnOw is (in terms of changing the flow of the game in his favour). While his early game is extremely frightening, his late-game decision making and execution has a lot to be desired for, and sometimes he over-commits on his micro-management duels to his own demise. He has some of the best handle of early game situations, but the chances of Mini winning seems to fall off a cliff as time progresses.
5) Shuttle: Shuttle to me seems to play the game to persue two things. Large scale battles, and spamming units from production buildings. For example, while both Shuttle and SnOw enjoy using carriers versus the terran race, SnOw seems to wear down the terran opponent to death, while Shuttle seems to prefer head on engagements. He has some of the best large scale battle execution out of any player out there, and is famed for his extremely potent late game protoss-verus-zerg abilities. However, outside of his strengths, he is not particularly impressive in the early game, and is kind of the polar opposite of Mini, where his execution of the late game situations are flawless, but it seems he doesn't know how to get there efficiently.
That's about it, really. I always preferred players who playmaked with their units, so I have less to say about those who focus more on macro-management.
On November 07 2018 01:28 Alpha-NP- wrote: Everyone used to say old island maps favored P in PvT but I never read a convincing argument.
Sparkle definitely favored T in TvP with all Terrans going Wraith/Valks against Corsairs.
I thought Effort’s ASL6 interview was interesting when he said the best PvZ player he feared the most was Mini. Mini must be amazing online but I agree he chokes in tournaments every time. He sounds like a poor loser that can’t mentally get past his early game mistakes.
I always like Best a lot and I think he is underrated. Can letmelose tell us something about how Best playstyle is different from Rain, Snow, Mini, and Shuttle? Thanks.
If you paid attention to Effort stream you will notice that the only protoss he struggles to is Mini, so it is no surprise he says this. I am not convinced that it's because Mini is better than an other at this match up, I think he is good particularly vs EffOrt style. I was confident he would take down any terran for as long as he could display his best (which what happened of course (kaboom)), but for Mini I am always unsure, it's like he knows how to handle EffOrt more than any other.
On November 07 2018 01:28 Alpha-NP- wrote: Everyone used to say old island maps favored P in PvT but I never read a convincing argument.
Sparkle definitely favored T in TvP with all Terrans going Wraith/Valks against Corsairs.
I thought Effort’s ASL6 interview was interesting when he said the best PvZ player he feared the most was Mini. Mini must be amazing online but I agree he chokes in tournaments every time. He sounds like a poor loser that can’t mentally get past his early game mistakes.
I always like Best a lot and I think he is underrated. Can letmelose tell us something about how Best playstyle is different from Rain, Snow, Mini, and Shuttle? Thanks.
If you paid attention to Effort stream you will notice that the only protoss he struggles to is Mini, so it is no surprise he says this. I am not convinced that it's because Mini is better than an other at this match up, I think he is good particularly vs EffOrt style. I was confident he would take down any terran for as long as he could display his best (which what happened of course (kaboom)), but for Mini I am always unsure, it's like he knows how to handle EffOrt more than any other.
The things Mini does that are out of the ordinary:
- his micro can be out-of-this-world good - his decision-making can be very, very unpredictable and in rare occasions even non-sensical - is more aggressive than any other Protosses I know
I could see him being a bit of an odd-ball for a very aggressive Zerg.
On November 07 2018 01:28 Alpha-NP- wrote: Everyone used to say old island maps favored P in PvT but I never read a convincing argument.
Sparkle definitely favored T in TvP with all Terrans going Wraith/Valks against Corsairs.
I thought Effort’s ASL6 interview was interesting when he said the best PvZ player he feared the most was Mini. Mini must be amazing online but I agree he chokes in tournaments every time. He sounds like a poor loser that can’t mentally get past his early game mistakes.
I always like Best a lot and I think he is underrated. Can letmelose tell us something about how Best playstyle is different from Rain, Snow, Mini, and Shuttle? Thanks.
If you paid attention to Effort stream you will notice that the only protoss he struggles to is Mini, so it is no surprise he says this. I am not convinced that it's because Mini is better than an other at this match up, I think he is good particularly vs EffOrt style. I was confident he would take down any terran for as long as he could display his best (which what happened of course (kaboom)), but for Mini I am always unsure, it's like he knows how to handle EffOrt more than any other.
It hasn't been that long that Jaedong finished 2nd in KSL, beating Rain who is ranked 3rd on this. He should definitely be included, especially over people like Sharp or Mini. He went 1-1 with Flash in ASL, that's better than pretty much everyone except for Effort. I personally couldn't care less about online results. Lan is where it's at. So imo online results like Sponbang should matter very little for this ranking. If it has to be online, at least only include high prestige stuff like MPL. I agree with the others saying that Shuttle is ranked way too high. He should at the very least be ranked lower than Soulkey after the beating he got from Flash.
I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Pretty absurd how many options I had to include (and didn't include Larva), but given that I don't even know who I think is #5 at this point, I couldn't know who other people think is #5.
On November 08 2018 02:56 BigBalls wrote: I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Tier wise, this is what I have in raw skill and not just performances: S+: FlaSh S: EffOrt, Last S-: Rain A+: Jaedong A: Mini, Soulkey A-: Action, Shuttle, Snow B: Sharp, MIsO, Light, Mind, BeSt
On November 08 2018 02:56 BigBalls wrote: I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Tier wise, this is what I have in raw skill and not just performances: S+: FlaSh S: EffOrt, Last S-: Rain A+: Jaedong A: Mini, Soulkey A-: Action, Shuttle, Snow B: Sharp, MIsO, Light, Mind, BeSt
i agree with this list if u change rain for jd, imo rain is really overrated.
On November 08 2018 02:56 BigBalls wrote: I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Tier wise, this is what I have in raw skill and not just performances: S+: FlaSh S: EffOrt, Last S-: Rain A+: Jaedong A: Mini, Soulkey A-: Action, Shuttle, Snow B: Sharp, MIsO, Light, Mind, BeSt
I haven't watched enough games so I'm not suggesting that I know better, but didn't Effort and Jaedong both stomp Rain in ASL and KSL? Rain didn't look so good.
Also, if you publish a list that's basically the same as this every month maybe the "recency bias" whiners will finally be happy.
On November 08 2018 02:56 BigBalls wrote: I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Tier wise, this is what I have in raw skill and not just performances: S+: FlaSh S: EffOrt, Last S-: Rain A+: Jaedong A: Mini, Soulkey A-: Action, Shuttle, Snow B: Sharp, MIsO, Light, Mind, BeSt
I haven't watched enough games so I'm not suggesting that I know better, but didn't Effort and Jaedong both stomp Rain in ASL and KSL? Rain didn't look so good.
Also, if you publish a list that's basically the same as this every month maybe the "recency bias" whiners will finally be happy.
Rain lost to both in one sided fashion, but also beat Last in one sided fashion and had better overall results across ASL5/ASL6/KSL (1/3-4/5-8) than anyone. I don't read too much into the KSL/ASL match vs Last because of the maps. I know people think Sparkle is favored for T vs P, but Last went out early of ASL5 and at that point in time it was heavily P favored, and since he was eliminated ro24, likely he didn't continue to practice it as much as Rain.
Gun to my head top 10: 1. Flash 2. Last 3. Effort 4. Rain 5. JD 6. Soulkey (never seems to perform when it counts, but most skilled of remaining players) 7. Mini 8. Sharp 9. Action 10. Best
On November 08 2018 02:56 BigBalls wrote: I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Tier wise, this is what I have in raw skill and not just performances: S+: FlaSh S: EffOrt, Last S-: Rain A+: Jaedong A: Mini, Soulkey A-: Action, Shuttle, Snow B: Sharp, MIsO, Light, Mind, BeSt
I haven't watched enough games so I'm not suggesting that I know better, but didn't Effort and Jaedong both stomp Rain in ASL and KSL? Rain didn't look so good.
Also, if you publish a list that's basically the same as this every month maybe the "recency bias" whiners will finally be happy.
Rain is that high because his other two matchups, PvT and PvP is amazing. PvP is #1 and PvT is #1/2 (behind Snow maybe). I think he's slightly better overall than JD right now because JD is starting to crack mentally (ASL group). I think you could move them back and forth and I wouldn't disagree much.
On November 08 2018 02:56 BigBalls wrote: I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Tier wise, this is what I have in raw skill and not just performances: S+: FlaSh S: EffOrt, Last S-: Rain A+: Jaedong A: Mini, Soulkey A-: Action, Shuttle, Snow B: Sharp, MIsO, Light, Mind, BeSt
I like this list. I wonder what people would think if instead of power rankings, you guys did these tiered rankings. Someone asked why I would put Soulkey at 5, and the answer is that I agree with that person as well, Soulkey wouldn't make a great 5. I think JD would, as this post would indicate.
On November 08 2018 02:56 BigBalls wrote: I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Tier wise, this is what I have in raw skill and not just performances: S+: FlaSh S: EffOrt, Last S-: Rain A+: Jaedong A: Mini, Soulkey A-: Action, Shuttle, Snow B: Sharp, MIsO, Light, Mind, BeSt
On November 08 2018 02:56 BigBalls wrote: I know power rank is mostly about recent performance, but in the real rankings it's very tough to rank Effort/Last/Rain between 2-4 and all orderings can be argued. Also have no lean as to who is the current #5, and there seems to be a major drop off from the Effort/Last/Rain tier to whoever is next.
Tier wise, this is what I have in raw skill and not just performances: S+: FlaSh S: EffOrt, Last S-: Rain A+: Jaedong A: Mini, Soulkey A-: Action, Shuttle, Snow B: Sharp, MIsO, Light, Mind, BeSt
This is actually a better PR
It's POWER rankings, not PERFORMANCE RANKINGS
I think people need to understand that everyone has a different definition of a "power rank". Me personally, a POWER rank entices more trendlines and rewards good performance. If a player continues to play well, they will end up higher. If they don't, they drop. As such, someone like EffOrt is rewarded for playing well. If someone isn't playing up to their potential, let's say Soulkey right now, why should we reward them with a higher placement on the list? That doesn't make any sense to me. Obviously, we forgive him because we know his potential, but let's say his underperformance starts becoming consistent, like EffORt was from ASL2-5? Who's to say that this is just a choke or his actual skill level now? And that's why the PR reflects these dips in skill, because we don't know for sure how they are playing. Like Shuttle after ASL1, do we know for sure if he's that good now? Or is this a one time thing. We don't know, but we move him up the rank in case he is that good.
An actual ranking that I did above based upon actual raw skill and highest performance is boring. How much movement would there be month to month? Like, let's look 2 months ago. Do you really think that my current list is much different? It gets boring if there's no movement, people are just going to say, ok these players are all the same, maybe a player moves up a rank and someone moves down. But otherwise I don't like that system for generating discussion. You would start arguing over tiny details like if someone is A+ or A, or S- or A+.
This is why I will continue to use my format for power rankings in the future, and intend to use this system for a long time. If you want a "how good are these players at their potential", then you can make that your own ranking. I'm totally down for someone to make a side by side ranking for people to look at. We can see who is over performing or under performing based upon the stable, actual skill rank vs the power rank. And that's why power ranks are fun for me. Sometimes you do get good players who get knocked out early. Sometimes you have dark horses make a deep run (shuttle for ASL6), and that's the fun of the game and tournament format.
EPT
I said this last time, but I don't think willfully skipping a tournament should mean very much for the power rank. The power rank is (or at least was) never about who has the best results right now, its more like who are the scariest players right now. And Jeadong is one of the absolute scariest players. 
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/R2fjNvh.jpg)
