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On July 23 2018 02:55 razorsuKe wrote:So... "The problems with old AND new maps"? :D "The problems with all maps" XD
Well, I guess I should have the thread title changed then… But it definitely fits better into this thread, or rather, it is probably good to have all the bug documentation focused in one thread.
Things with these new are a lot better in some respects, but there are still some issues that need to be addressed. Some things aren't even really the fault of the respective map makers. LatiAs and Waldstein certainly put the necessary effort into their maps and know about most of the problems. However, most of the really serious issues (mining bugs, Vortex bugs, and only recently recognized as a common issue: Reaver jams) have only become accessible in the editor about a year ago, so there is still a bit of delay in the knowledge transfer.
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So new ladder maps are next. HBR already gets a special mention beforehand – any Protoss player can tell me why?
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I think Protoss players should master getting tons of units into a vortex so they can do a recall so huge that it defies logic.
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So let's have a look at the new 1.22 ladder maps. Most of them have already been covered in the OP, leaving only two:
(2)Heartbreak Ridge
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- Sorry Nina, while by my count there are 19 vortices on HBR, most of them are tugged away between some cliffs (dark red circles), so no chance to drop more than one unit in there (which could in some spots still be abused with nuking Gosts and the like but that's a drophole issue, not a vortex), and one is just an Ultra vortex, leaving only the one in the left main, which is also mostly tugged away in a little cranny between the cliffs, good luck trying to get any sizeable amount of units stacked in there…
- The really serious problem (for Protoss player specifically) I was hinting at of course comes in the form of Reaver jams (magenta and red regions), notably one that covers most of the choke of the left main and another one that covers about 40% of the angle around the right main choke. That's right folks, on HBR you cannot use Reavers to defend your main chokes (or at least not very well). So these are probably the worst Reaver jams encountered yet. There's also another one at the edge of the vertical ramp at the top – vertical terrain edges like this are unfortunately prone to produce this type of bug. This problem is in all versions of HBR by the way.
- There's also the usual selection of "swiss cheese ramps" (with lots of holes in them). Terrain level bugs have been marked with green circles.
- There are also some mining bugs, most notably in the left main and at the top left corner expansion.
- Whether you see this as a bug or as a weird feature is up to you, but since the minerals and temples at the backdoor (yellow ellipses) to the natural are stacked, destroying or mining out one of them will allow you to build on the remaining stack. This could be changed by putting some unbuildable tiles underneath.
- Asymmetries in playable map dimensions where not properly compensated for, leaving one tight choke in front of the backdoor effectively noticeably tighter than its counterpart (orange ellipses).
(3)Neo Aztec
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- As alway terrain level bugs have been marked in green. Apart from the usual ramps there is also some random low ground tile in the bottom right natural and some misplaced medium ground tiles at various spots around the high ground cliffs, most which are inconsequential (dark green), but some of which cause some minor vision inconsistencies.
- Mining problems are few on this map, but there are some. Apart from two bad patches at the 10 o'clock mineral only there are worker-migrating-behind-the-mineral-line issues in the bottom right main and natural as well as the left natural.
- The only somewhat relevant vortex bug (red circles) here is an Ultra vortex behind the top right natural's geyser.
- There's also a Reaver jam right in the midle of the map (red and magenta regions).
So overall Aztec fares surprisingly well, HBR are very badly though.
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I've experienced the worker-migrating-behind-the-mineral-line for 12 o'clock position as well, typically for the 6th (I believe) mineral patch, counting from the top. It only really happens when splitting my workers, the drone will move towards the patch, only to suddenly diverge his path to the bottom, all the way around the mineral patches. It's quite annoying.
Could be that I'm playing on an older version though! I did not find the latest maps in the ladder folder (where I was able to find the frontier league maps).
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That's probably Aztec 1.1, which has a gap there in the main mineral line.
Another way to tell is whether it has the drop cliffs behind the naturals.
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"worker-migrating-behind-the-mineral-line issues in the bottom left main"
You mean right main.
Thanks for the thread, really interesting problem with the HBR choke lol.
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On July 27 2018 18:57 quirinus wrote:
"worker-migrating-behind-the-mineral-line issues in the bottom left main"
You mean right main.
Thanks for the thread, really interesting problem with the HBR choke lol.
Corrected, thanks.
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Great thread. Maybe someone could translate this and let the Korean community know? I feel like they are so far behind in terms of map making techniques since the end of the kespa era that they aren't even aware of most of these issues.
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On July 28 2018 03:31 bITt.mAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 14:15 ninazerg wrote:
I think Protoss players should master getting tons of units into a vortex so they can do a recall so huge that it defies logic. This got me thinking, so I tested it out. Unfortunately I couldn't record/upload a replay, but these screenshots will suffice. Takes a bit of work, including ferrying probes back-and-forth ober the units to make them glitch better. + Show Spoiler [show images] +![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/haQQuES.png) 1 Recall ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/rwsSuiI.png) 2 Recalls ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Vtn1jgz.png) 3 Recalls ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5zukps7.png) In conclusion, there's a limit to how many units can fit in each recall. Having them stacked does work nicely to maximize how many units you recall. But it costs mining time, effort, map control, and mobility. So no Nina, this is a terrible idea
I discuss this in some detail, including a test map in the corresponding thread.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Changed the title to better suit the thread, good thread and discussion.
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On July 28 2018 07:02 BigFan wrote:
Changed the title to better suit the thread, good thread and discussion.
The problems with every map + Show Spoiler +
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On July 28 2018 07:02 BigFan wrote:
Changed the title to better suit the thread, good thread and discussion.
I guess I'd better come up with a better title altogether…
On July 28 2018 09:08 razorsuKe wrote:The problems with every map + Show Spoiler +
Nah, my maps have all kinds of issues too, the older the map the more issues probably. Only Roadkill, Oxide and Heartbeat are completely up to date right now, maybe a few others that I haven't checked in detail yet (Eddy, Hazard Black, Inner Coven). Reap the Storm on the other hand has one really nasty Reaver jam, right at the ramp down to the middle in front of the top right nat…
Most of these bugs obviously only became accessible with the inclusion of a pathfinding region overlay in ScmDraft, which has only been available for about a year or so now.
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On July 23 2018 03:33 bITt.mAN wrote:
What I don't get is why Blizzard haven't already freaking hired Freakling to consult on quality control issues.
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France1920 Posts
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It would be better/easier to just have one person or a small team debug the maps instead of trying to contact the original authors to fix their maps (seeing as most of them are Korean and most maps were made years ago).
There would be an annoying language barrier, and how would you even contact some of the ones that left the scene years ago?
As a mapmaker myself I understand the possible issue of having others altering your work, but when it comes to maps that are being played on international ladders and in tournaments with thousands of dollars on the line, I believe quality and debugging outweighs the possible unhappiness an individual mapmaker may have for unwelcome alterations to their maps. Basically it’s a benefit to a whole playerbase at one person’s possible expense. I personally wouldn’t mind (in fact Freakling has debugged a few of my maps already, thank you very much mate).
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51661 Posts
technically the maps are the property of blizzard so they can do whatever they'd like with them?
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They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/8YA3PJ0.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/eMqnS7V.jpg)
