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To make for a better reference, I decided to give this its own thread. I'll take the current KSL maps as examples, but the issues I'd like to point our are all-pervasive throughout the llegacy (Kespa) map pool.
Analyses of the remaining 1.22 ladder maps, New Heartbreak Ridge and Neo Aztec, can be found here.
Analyses of the ASL6 map candidates Autobahn, Sylphide, Neo Transistor and Labyrinth can be found here.
Fighting Spirit 1.3
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +So the most devastating bug, that definitely needs to be fixed, is the infamous ramp vortex (red circle). There are also various low ground holes on the reversed ramps (green circles), which are quite problematic (they make units go blind and randomly miss shots, obviously) These aren't all the bugs the map has, there are definitely some mining problems at some of the expansions (most notably the 4 o'clock and 10 o'clock naturals), but they make for a good starting point. There are also some aesthetical issues with the bridges when playing with HD graphics, some of the tiles would need to be swapped out.
Circuit Breakers 1.0
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +If Fighting Spirit has some mild terrain level issues with its ramps, Circuit Breakers certainly suffers from rather disastrous editing. The reverse ramps are a total mess as you can see. Various mining problems are a given, but again these are secondary issues that can only be addressed one editing step further. Looking closely you can even spot a Reaver jam in the top centre.
Blue Storm 1.2
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +Blue Storm is even worse. It's not only the ramps that have erratic terrain levels, there are lower ground holes all over the place. These should be regarded as serious issues as the "random" miss chance that in spots where it is totally unexpected for players can easily cost a player a fight and subsequently the game. This is just absolutely shoddy terrain editing, although to be fair to the map maker, Blizzard are actually (at least partially) to blame for a fair share of these issues. Not to forget a couple of very relevant vortices, however solving the atrocious terrain level mess will most likely get rid of these as well.
Polaris Rhapsody 1.0
+ Show Spoiler +
Gladiator 1.1
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +Well, there is that one out-of place high ground tile, but that's not much of an issue. So this is actually a pretty decent map to play on in its given state. There are some mining issues (look at the 7 o'clock base, for example), but at least there is nothing absolutely terrible going on here.
The Fortress 2.0
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +Due to the simplistic terrain design, there's really nothing fundamentally wrong here. There are some spots where units can get stuck on terrain (vortex bugs – see red circles), but at least they are not near any chokes, so game-breaking calamities are very unlikely to happen (maybe some Protoss can use these spots for some insane stacked recalls  ). So this map is basically in a good basic state to do some final bug-fixing on, so I'll use it as an example to demonstrate some pathfinding related issues (these kind of things apply to all the other maps as well, mind, it's just that they have other issues that need to be addressed first). First of, the magenta circle marks a spot that causes Reaver jamming (Reavers not being able to fire Scarabs). the cause is the pathfinding region marked in red that's jammed in a wedge-like manner between the two magenta regions, completely separating them. The magenta regions are spatially close together, but due to this layout much farther apart as far as the pathfinding engine is concerned. Since Scarabs are units and have to move like units and Reaves therefore use pathfinding distance instead of linear distance to determine whether a target is in range, this completely throws of their attack. A Reaver in one of the magenta Regions can simply not attack anything in the other magenta region. This is a very problematic issues as pathfinding is mostly hidden from the player and thus this behaviour comes unpredictable to players and can easily cost them a Reaver, a fight or subsequently the game. It's doubly bad here, as this spot is actually within 8 tiles range of the mineral line, so in a spot where Reaver harassment is likely to occur. Furthermore I highlighted some regions that cause aberrant pathfinding for mining workers. Yellow marks the regions, resource depots are placed in, regions with critical resources are marked in cyan. I outlined the expected mining paths in cyan. Red paths mark aberrations from that standard. These do not necessarily affect all races, due to differences in the collision sizes of their respective resource depots, mostly they apply to Zerg, which are also most affected by low saturation mining deficits caused by inefficient worker pathing. If resource depot and resources are placed in different regions, the workers' behaviour is determined by long-range pathfinding, so they try to find the "shortest" path from their location to their destination (in this case the the location being the location at the worker position while mining or when returning resources to the resource depot and the destination being the region where the resource node or resource depot is located), avoiding all "detours" through other regions where possible. This can lead to all kinds of unwanted results. Of the problematic spots outlined here, only the ones in the top main and at the top right pseudo-island expansion have significant impact in-game, which is amazingly good, statistically, compared to most other maps, although mining bugs in mains are of course doubly bad. There is also another problem that can be seen in the top main: As yo can see, two of the recessed mineral fields are placed in a region that is located completely behind the mineral line and is directly connected to the region above it, where the top three patches of the mineral line are located and workers are mining. This means that workers, following the "shortest" path between the regions will migrate from the top patches through the gap in the mineral behind the mineral line to reach one of the other two patches. This can slow mining at medium to high saturations quite a bit (savvy player would probably just block the gap with a building). There are some other optimizations to resource formations that could further improve mining smoothness and balance for one or all races which are not region related for this map and any other. Another interesting aspect can be seen in the left main, where, as you may notice, the mineral line is basically build in a way to avoid all potential issues with the problematic region layout (the old school solution to such issues: Just juggle your minerals around until all buggy ones are eliminated)
I hope some of the information provided here is useful for players who want to abuse or work around some map bugs and of course for map makers struggling to debug their maps. Although most of all I hope that this raises awareness and understanding of the problems of the current map pool with players, tournament hosts and developers. We have all the tools to fix these and it is not really understandable why a game should be played competitively on maps that have the potential to screw players over in various "unpredictable" ways. It's a lot of work to actually update a map to a proper standard, though, because BW pathfinding is such a mindscrew. It's just way too much work for me or any map maker to do alone without much incentive for the updated maps to actually be used widely (and I guess most map makers are like me and would much rather work on their own maps if they find the time). So what we would need is better communication with tournament hosts (especially the big ones like Blizzard and afreeca), proper prioritization and ample planning ahead to make meaningful progress. So any concrete idea how that could be achieved is welcome. It should also be mentioned that Blizzard's promissed, but not yet delivered, support of new adaptable ramps puts most map projects, be it new map or updates, into a perpetual limbo until those additional assets, which would make some things somewhat easier (or at least more eye-pleasing), at least as far just SC:R (not 1.16-compatible updates) is concerned.
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i honestly cant believe the maps are not bug fixed yet when its possible to do so those vortex ramp bugs appear more often than you would think if you need to defend that 12oclock expo on f.s alot moving units up&down 
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The 4 oclock main ramp on FS is really bad, sit a marine there and sometimes he can't see anything, very annoying
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far be it from me to condemn a mans hobby, but the pretense that this is anything but...
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On July 01 2018 04:58 Dazed. wrote:
far be it from me to condemn a mans hobby, but the pretense that this is anything but...
Can you complete the thought? This post irks me like an itch you can't reach.
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He’s bettering the maps you play on, nothing wrong with that. If anything, it’s good. Especially when the maps are going to be played in a competitive setting with thousands if not tens of thousands of dollars on the line. Everything should be tip top, no?
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I actually think this is what makes brood war such a great game.. You have to work around those problem, and make something else happen for yourself!
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On July 01 2018 08:09 757 wrote:
I actually think this is what makes brood war such a great game.. You have to work around those problem, and make something else happen for yourself!
These aren't some issues to just work around, though. Many of them are not apparent to the player to begin with, so they are more likely to screw you over without you even realizing it.
For example, you cannot manually micro your workers throughout the game to compensate for mining problems. The only "working around" you could do is to pick a build order that can cope with a mineral (or gas) deficit.
With things like Reaver jams, vortices or "random" low ground holes you probably would not even know they are there until they screw you over in a game, and even then you'd probably miss it because it happens off-screen, because you most likely have better things to focus your attention on than to keep statistics of things like missed shots or resource gathering rates or, most likely, you do not even have the mental model to realize there is problem.
Would you really claim that seeing these pictures you'd rather play on Blue Storm, which has all those issues, than on Gladiator, which hasn't, because you have more stuff consider to "work around"?
There aren't some fantastic new strategies and tricks to be gained here. Most of this is just very basic stuff that players rely on that it just works (even if does not). If you are on terrain that is visually distinguished to be uphill, you expect a miss chance advantage. Period. If you are mining from a base, you expect it to give you a comparable income to the analogue base your opponent is ming from. If you drop a Reaver to fire a Scarab, you expect it to actually do it and not sit there and do nothing while a Vulture is dancing right in front of its nose. And units just getting stuck on terrain where you cannot dislodge them any more is certainly nothing that you can just work around. Unless you are Protoss and have a recall ready you are basically screwed.
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On July 01 2018 08:09 757 wrote:
I actually think this is what makes brood war such a great game.. You have to work around those problem, and make something else happen for yourself!
rampvortex can cause to lose a complete control group 12unit (or more??) all stuck inside the ramp... its often GG if that happens in early or late game
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Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago:
Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/mhT1HWV.jpg)
It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications.
Or simply retire this map already
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On July 20 2018 02:35 razorsuKe wrote:Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago: Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications. Or simply retire this map already
Never. Long live FS ~
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On July 20 2018 03:18 ProtossGG wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 02:35 razorsuKe wrote:Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago: Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications. Or simply retire this map already Never. Long live FS ~
why though? I think it's fine if you like to play on it, but do you honestly look forward to watching tournament games being played on FS?
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On July 20 2018 04:02 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:18 ProtossGG wrote:On July 20 2018 02:35 razorsuKe wrote:Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago: Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications. Or simply retire this map already Never. Long live FS ~ why though? I think it's fine if you like to play on it, but do you honestly look forward to watching tournament games being played on FS?
What I like is seeing the pros play with standard strategies on standard maps occasionally, so I can compare that to my games or w/e. With that said, it would be fine if they used other maps with similar features, instead of FS.
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On July 20 2018 04:02 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 03:18 ProtossGG wrote:On July 20 2018 02:35 razorsuKe wrote:Shoutout to Freakling who called this happening a decade ago: Last night's match featured the Vortex of Doom™ yet again It's something that players actively think about avoiding during the game and Mini used it to his advantage. This map "feature" should be modified as per Freakling's specifications. Or simply retire this map already Never. Long live FS ~ why though? I think it's fine if you like to play on it, but do you honestly look forward to watching tournament games being played on FS?
100%. I enjoy seeing the pros play on CB/FS/Gladiator
I've argued this in some other threads so I don't want to derail the point of this. Simply my opinion; but I'm a huge advocate of FS/CB.
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Fair enough, but can we at least agree that the Vortex of Doom™ should be fixed though? :D
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It’s not a difficult fix. Just move some terrain around or add unwalkable doodads here and there around the area. Might have to change some mineral formations if other pathfinding regions are affected. Wouldn’t be surprised if Freakling already has a debugged versión laying around somewhere.
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So that's why marines sometime struggle against dragoons on the ramp...
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I already posted a version that fixed the vortex and a a few other quick to fix issues (holes in ramps, bridge blends being screwed up by HD graohics) about a year ago. I even sent the link to Afreeca admins. But that's the crucial point here: The responsible for the big tournaments still seem to be completely oblivious as to the state of the art of melee map making. I guess they need more of a shitstorm from players about it. Afreeca seems to not even be able to enforce the minimal quality standard (such as smooth mining for all bases – they don't even make a mention of any other serious bugs) they set for their map contests (although it would be reasonable to allow for a lot of negligence in first versions, as complete bugfixing is best left till last, when the layout is completely finalized – but I feel that this is a general agreement and discussion we have not achieved yet). Most players are probably just worn down by decades of bad compromises that more or less forced them to just live with all kinds of crazy shenanigans. "It's just the game. Brood War, man, it's crazy!" – Literally Tastetosis whenever something happens that they don't fully understand.
So the question stands:
How can the top level players and tourney hosts be made aware of the importance of the issues and how can we instate an actual, reasonable effort to get them fixed, map by map, for at least the ones in current high level competition?
Maybe having some open documentation in Korean of bugs and how modern map making tools can get rid of them (and by this point it's actually all of the really serious ones) would help. So if some one is willing to do some translation work, just send me a PM.
On July 20 2018 07:52 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
So that's why marines sometime struggle against dragoons on the ramp...
Why Dragoons vs. Marines in particular? If neither of them get stuck on that tile it is not this bug.
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sometimes my marines go blind on top of the ramp :x
for me it's the only noticeable bug i've experienced personally
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On July 20 2018 05:45 razorsuKe wrote:
Fair enough, but can we at least agree that the Vortex of Doom™ should be fixed though? :D
Yeah, I could agree that the really bad "Vortex doom" at 12 nat on FS should be fixed. Lol
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On July 20 2018 13:19 Freakling wrote:I already posted a version that fixed the vortex and a a few other quick to fix issues (holes in ramps, bridge blends being screwed up by HD graohics) about a year ago. I even sent the link to Afreeca admins. But that's the crucial point here: The responsible for the big tournaments still seem to be completely oblivious as to the state of the art of melee map making. I guess they need more of a shitstorm from players about it. Afreeca seems to not even be able to enforce the minimal quality standard (such as smooth mining for all bases – they don't even make a mention of any other serious bugs) they set for their map contests (although it would be reasonable to allow for a lot of negligence in first versions, as complete bugfixing is best left till last, when the layout is completely finalized – but I feel that this is a general agreement and discussion we have not achieved yet). Most players are probably just worn down by decades of bad compromises that more or less forced them to just live with all kinds of crazy shenanigans. "It's just the game. Brood War, man, it's crazy!" – Literally Tastetosis whenever something happens that they don't fully understand. So the question stands: How can the top level players and tourney hosts be made aware of the importance of the issues and how can we instate an actual, reasonable effort to get them fixed, map by map, for at least the ones in current high level competition? Maybe having some open documentation in Korean of bugs and how modern map making tools can get rid of them (and by this point it's actually all of the really serious ones) would help. So if some one is willing to do some translation work, just send me a PM. Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 07:52 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
So that's why marines sometime struggle against dragoons on the ramp... Why Dragoons vs. Marines in particular? If neither of them get stuck on that tile it is not this bug.
Perhaps we could get someone to speak with them in person, ie: tasteless, artosis, rapid
Just a quick mention that a fixed map already exists so that the tournament admins can AT LEAST be made aware of the issue(s) and that the solution is already here.
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On July 20 2018 13:42 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
sometimes my marines go blind on top of the ramp :x
for me it's the only noticeable bug i've experienced personally
that is a different issue that has been addressed before. I believe the problem with that is because sc/bw originally only has 2 ramps, so to create ramps facing other directions, users kinda had to hack it together with a differentiating set of tiles.
One of those tiles is considered low ground or under cover, so that when you have a small unit specifically on that one tile, it will be considered low ground and not have vision of the other tiles around it. You can simply move your marine slightly in any direction and you should regain vision.
Alternatively, you can place your other marine/unit in a spot that does have vision.
You are right though, this shouldn't be an issue and I do believe freakling has fixed this issue on some maps too, no?
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At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact.
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On July 20 2018 14:11 TT1 wrote:
At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact.
I get the impression that blizz has a tendency to ignore the things that get brought up from the community. I do think starting a thread on the official blizz forums and having a lot of supporting replies to it would get their attention though.
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I think it's a good idea to fix the vortex bug on FS and continue playing on it more than anything, I think the biggest issue is that bug on FS.
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On July 20 2018 14:28 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 14:11 TT1 wrote:
At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact. I get the impression that blizz has a tendency to ignore the things that get brought up from the community. I do think starting a thread on the official blizz forums and having a lot of supporting replies to it would get their attention though.
Like i said, Freakling should have their contact (email or PM info on TL). I'm sure Blizz would listen if he'd send them a message.
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On July 20 2018 13:42 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
sometimes my marines go blind on top of the ramp :x
for me it's the only noticeable bug i've experienced personally
That's a Terrain level issue, which I also pointed out in the OP. These are very common. Apart from going blind the Marine would also miss half of his shots, by the way, as he is standing on low ground.
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On July 20 2018 14:59 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 14:28 razorsuKe wrote:On July 20 2018 14:11 TT1 wrote:
At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact. I get the impression that blizz has a tendency to ignore the things that get brought up from the community. I do think starting a thread on the official blizz forums and having a lot of supporting replies to it would get their attention though. Like i said, Freakling should have their contact (email or PM info on TL). I'm sure Blizz would listen if he'd send them a message.
I have already got in contact with both Blizzard and Afreeca staff and brought up the issues, and so far I have been flat out ignored on the matter. No one's even acknowledged it.
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On July 20 2018 16:36 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 14:59 TT1 wrote:On July 20 2018 14:28 razorsuKe wrote:On July 20 2018 14:11 TT1 wrote:
At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact. I get the impression that blizz has a tendency to ignore the things that get brought up from the community. I do think starting a thread on the official blizz forums and having a lot of supporting replies to it would get their attention though. Like i said, Freakling should have their contact (email or PM info on TL). I'm sure Blizz would listen if he'd send them a message. I have already got in contact with both Blizzard and Afreeca staff and brought up the issues, and so far I have been flat out ignored on the matter. No one's even acknowledged it.
Well i don't know anything about the people who run Afreeca but i'm sure Matt Sherman (Blizz dev) would listen to you if you send him a PM/tweet/email. I don't remember what his TL id is but here's his twitter in case you don't have it: https://twitter.com/MattShermanSC
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Cadenzie is the best possible messenger for this atm, isn't she?
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Oh i remember that. Just try to update it. Must help
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Amazing work! Thank you for sharing it!
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Artosis in VOD:
oh no, and he got that little bug. There is a bug on ramps that go down at this angle on Jungle tileset. [...]
Sorry, completely wrong. It's got noting to do with ramps, the angle or the Tileset. You can have this in any tileset on any kind of terrain, as long as it's unwalkable. And if it would affect all Jungle ramps, it would be even more prevlent, given the map pool.
I just hope the players have a better idea about the mechanics than the casters. On the other hand, if the general idea really is "that's just Jungle ramps, can't do nuthin' about it" then at least I understand why there is such a lethargy regarding these bugs...
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Good work!
I hope someone can push this to Blizzard/Afreeca.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On July 20 2018 14:40 GGzerG wrote:
I think it's a good idea to fix the vortex bug on FS and continue playing on it more than anything, I think the biggest issue is that bug on FS.
If the maps never evolve the meta is never going to change. That's the problem with playing nothing but FS and also why BW always evolved. The maps have always evolved.
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(2)Autobahn
+ Show Spoiler [for detailed desciptions of bugs and c…] ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- Magenta marks instances of Reaver jams. Reavers cannot shoot from one of the respective adjacent red regions into the other, limiting their effective range down to as little as 1. Under specific conditions (like buildings or Ultralisks crossing multiple regions) they cannot shoot at all. This is due to distance calculations being thrown off due to regions being close together but having far spaced out nodes. Those wedge-like narrow strips protruding from the magenta regions are a typical manifestation of this kind of bug. One instance is in front of the nat choke, one is right down a ramp, another one is in the S main, close to the SL, all strategic spots with high likelyhood of Reaver usage, so these bug are likely to actually occur (most likely unnoticed) in a game.
To be fair, Waldstein cannot really be blamed for this, as I only investigated this type of bug very recently and this thread is the first source of information about it, as far as I know. So he can't be expected to have known.
- Green marks terrain level bugs ("blind spots") on the reverse ramps. No idea why these haven't been fixed right away as that trivial to do.
- The two red circles in the top main mark vortex bugs. These are both only Ultra vortices and they are fairly out of the way, so not a real issue as they are very unlikely to ever actually occur in a real game. Personally I still like to fix stuff like this, which usually fairly easily done anyway, It's made a bit harder here by the tiles next to the cliff being made buildable through custom terrain editing, so mostly walkable tiles cannot just be switched out for mostly unwalkable ones. On the other hand pathfinding will have to be adjusted to fix those Reaver jams anyway, so these might just disappear as a by-effect
- I also found two mineral patches with worker pathing problems. The first is at the 6 o'clock base. Yellow marks the optimal resource depot location and corresponding region. Cyan marks the affected mineral patch and its corresponding region. The path marked out in cyan is the expected (optimal) worker path for that patch, the path sketched in red is what occurs here instead.
The second mining issue is very minor. Due to being right on a region border the bottommost mineral patch in the bottom main lacks a straight, slightly faster path.
(3)Sylphide
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- As I said in my first impressions post this map is very well made and the only real bugs are three Ultra vortices in the left main, marked in red. These are probably not worth the bother to fix them, but it could be done very easily although, like on Autobahn, the edge tile next to the cliff not being proper cliff tiles makes it a bit harder.
- Not really a bug, but worth pointing out: With a mineral formation mostly on top of the resource depot, the top SL should have an altered worker spawn (like on Roadkill or Transistor) or splits will be delayed (yellow circle).
- Also not a bug but actually the contrary, so I it include it here because it is worth pointing out as most map makers probably don't know about this nice little detail yet: In both the left and right mains, a horizontal region border on the mineral side, exactly one tile down from the top edge of the resource depot, straightens out the path from the topmost mineral patch (red path), which would otherwise be a (non-optimal) diagonal path (cyan path), slightly speeding up gathering rates at those patches (see highlighted patches and regions).
- At the cyan circle at the top centre base gas workers can respawn and get stuck behind the geyser.
(3)Neo Transistor
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- I found two vortex bugs, marked with red circles. The one near the ramp in the left main could become problematic with ramp congestion and worker drilling involved.
- Seems like the map, or at least the updated version, was not debugged with regards to mining at all. There are lots of worker pathing issues, particularly in the left main, where a whopping 3/10 patches are affected. As always the critical regions are highlighted and the buggy worker paths marked out in red.
- The Khaydarin Crystals (yellow circles) in the mains still cause stack bugs, where part of the initial resource depot can be built on. This is old news, of course, and they probably consider it a feature or acceptable trade-off. I still hold a strong opinion that disabled installation doors would offer a much cleaner solution here though.
- And lastly something funny: There's also a little Engrish bug in the map description – it reads "Thanks to play this map." (I guess he meant to thank you for playing this map.)
(5)Labyrtinth
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- There's a whole plethora of Reaver jam locations around the middle (magenta regions, affected regions in red.
- Even though the "standard issue" reverse ramps have been customized for this map, what's still there are the terrain level bugs ("blind spots"), marked by green circles.
- Two vortex bugs, marked with red circles.
- There are two almost identical worker pathfinding problems, where a worker has to take a long detour to return minerals (see red paths, relevant regions highlighted as usual).
- Orange circles: Not really a bug, just very shoddy looking terrain editing. These little high ground nooks are meant to be hiding places for flag-bearing workers. Apart from the aesthetical aspect I feel like a perfect chance was passed by here to design something nice, using vision blocking tiles. With all the flashy weird stuff thrown into this map, why let this more modest but far less problematic innovation lay by the wayside?
- While not a real bug, it is probably not at all clear to players where the central high ground begins and ends. All the textures and sprites only further obscure things unlike you already know what's up. This should have been done in a more standard and intuitive way.
- And those double ramps are just annoying with a strong propensity of units to get stuck on the wrong one because path lengths are just so similar. This on top of the awkward shape of the main and the flag and gate mechanics makes it even more annoying to play the map. Even rallying units becomes a micro challenge. It's just bad.
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On July 23 2018 02:35 Freakling wrote:
[Reserved for new ASL6 test maps]
So... "The problems with old AND new maps"? :D
"The problems with all maps" XD
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What I don't get is why Blizzard haven't already freaking hired Freakling to consult on quality control issues.
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On July 23 2018 03:33 bITt.mAN wrote:
What I don't get is why Blizzard haven't already freaking hired Freakling to consult on quality control issues.
Freaking for president! Or at least: map quality manager.
I hope blizzard/afreeca implements the fixes soon (TM)
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Unfortunately I don’t think afreeca or blizzard care much about quality control, or rather don’t see the need for it. I think if more bugs show up on the big stage, during televised matches opinions might change.
And another thing, fixing ALL the old maps would take a while. Better to just do one mappool for an event/league at a time. It’s not very worth it for somebody to do it unless they get some compensation.
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On July 23 2018 02:55 razorsuKe wrote:So... "The problems with old AND new maps"? :D "The problems with all maps" XD
Well, I guess I should have the thread title changed then… But it definitely fits better into this thread, or rather, it is probably good to have all the bug documentation focused in one thread.
Things with these new are a lot better in some respects, but there are still some issues that need to be addressed. Some things aren't even really the fault of the respective map makers. LatiAs and Waldstein certainly put the necessary effort into their maps and know about most of the problems. However, most of the really serious issues (mining bugs, Vortex bugs, and only recently recognized as a common issue: Reaver jams) have only become accessible in the editor about a year ago, so there is still a bit of delay in the knowledge transfer.
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So new ladder maps are next. HBR already gets a special mention beforehand – any Protoss player can tell me why?
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I think Protoss players should master getting tons of units into a vortex so they can do a recall so huge that it defies logic.
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So let's have a look at the new 1.22 ladder maps. Most of them have already been covered in the OP, leaving only two:
(2)Heartbreak Ridge
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- Sorry Nina, while by my count there are 19 vortices on HBR, most of them are tugged away between some cliffs (dark red circles), so no chance to drop more than one unit in there (which could in some spots still be abused with nuking Gosts and the like but that's a drophole issue, not a vortex), and one is just an Ultra vortex, leaving only the one in the left main, which is also mostly tugged away in a little cranny between the cliffs, good luck trying to get any sizeable amount of units stacked in there…
- The really serious problem (for Protoss player specifically) I was hinting at of course comes in the form of Reaver jams (magenta and red regions), notably one that covers most of the choke of the left main and another one that covers about 40% of the angle around the right main choke. That's right folks, on HBR you cannot use Reavers to defend your main chokes (or at least not very well). So these are probably the worst Reaver jams encountered yet. There's also another one at the edge of the vertical ramp at the top – vertical terrain edges like this are unfortunately prone to produce this type of bug. This problem is in all versions of HBR by the way.
- There's also the usual selection of "swiss cheese ramps" (with lots of holes in them). Terrain level bugs have been marked with green circles.
- There are also some mining bugs, most notably in the left main and at the top left corner expansion.
- Whether you see this as a bug or as a weird feature is up to you, but since the minerals and temples at the backdoor (yellow ellipses) to the natural are stacked, destroying or mining out one of them will allow you to build on the remaining stack. This could be changed by putting some unbuildable tiles underneath.
- Asymmetries in playable map dimensions where not properly compensated for, leaving one tight choke in front of the backdoor effectively noticeably tighter than its counterpart (orange ellipses).
(3)Neo Aztec
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- As alway terrain level bugs have been marked in green. Apart from the usual ramps there is also some random low ground tile in the bottom right natural and some misplaced medium ground tiles at various spots around the high ground cliffs, most which are inconsequential (dark green), but some of which cause some minor vision inconsistencies.
- Mining problems are few on this map, but there are some. Apart from two bad patches at the 10 o'clock mineral only there are worker-migrating-behind-the-mineral-line issues in the bottom right main and natural as well as the left natural.
- The only somewhat relevant vortex bug (red circles) here is an Ultra vortex behind the top right natural's geyser.
- There's also a Reaver jam right in the midle of the map (red and magenta regions).
So overall Aztec fares surprisingly well, HBR are very badly though.
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I've experienced the worker-migrating-behind-the-mineral-line for 12 o'clock position as well, typically for the 6th (I believe) mineral patch, counting from the top. It only really happens when splitting my workers, the drone will move towards the patch, only to suddenly diverge his path to the bottom, all the way around the mineral patches. It's quite annoying.
Could be that I'm playing on an older version though! I did not find the latest maps in the ladder folder (where I was able to find the frontier league maps).
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That's probably Aztec 1.1, which has a gap there in the main mineral line.
Another way to tell is whether it has the drop cliffs behind the naturals.
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"worker-migrating-behind-the-mineral-line issues in the bottom left main"
You mean right main.
Thanks for the thread, really interesting problem with the HBR choke lol.
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On July 27 2018 18:57 quirinus wrote:
"worker-migrating-behind-the-mineral-line issues in the bottom left main"
You mean right main.
Thanks for the thread, really interesting problem with the HBR choke lol.
Corrected, thanks.
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Great thread. Maybe someone could translate this and let the Korean community know? I feel like they are so far behind in terms of map making techniques since the end of the kespa era that they aren't even aware of most of these issues.
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On July 28 2018 03:31 bITt.mAN wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2018 14:15 ninazerg wrote:
I think Protoss players should master getting tons of units into a vortex so they can do a recall so huge that it defies logic. This got me thinking, so I tested it out. Unfortunately I couldn't record/upload a replay, but these screenshots will suffice. Takes a bit of work, including ferrying probes back-and-forth ober the units to make them glitch better. + Show Spoiler [show images] +![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/haQQuES.png) 1 Recall ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/rwsSuiI.png) 2 Recalls ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Vtn1jgz.png) 3 Recalls ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/5zukps7.png) In conclusion, there's a limit to how many units can fit in each recall. Having them stacked does work nicely to maximize how many units you recall. But it costs mining time, effort, map control, and mobility. So no Nina, this is a terrible idea
I discuss this in some detail, including a test map in the corresponding thread.
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TLADT24920 Posts
Changed the title to better suit the thread, good thread and discussion.
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On July 28 2018 07:02 BigFan wrote:
Changed the title to better suit the thread, good thread and discussion.
The problems with every map + Show Spoiler +
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On July 28 2018 07:02 BigFan wrote:
Changed the title to better suit the thread, good thread and discussion.
I guess I'd better come up with a better title altogether…
On July 28 2018 09:08 razorsuKe wrote:The problems with every map + Show Spoiler +
Nah, my maps have all kinds of issues too, the older the map the more issues probably. Only Roadkill, Oxide and Heartbeat are completely up to date right now, maybe a few others that I haven't checked in detail yet (Eddy, Hazard Black, Inner Coven). Reap the Storm on the other hand has one really nasty Reaver jam, right at the ramp down to the middle in front of the top right nat…
Most of these bugs obviously only became accessible with the inclusion of a pathfinding region overlay in ScmDraft, which has only been available for about a year or so now.
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On July 23 2018 03:33 bITt.mAN wrote:
What I don't get is why Blizzard haven't already freaking hired Freakling to consult on quality control issues.
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France1919 Posts
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It would be better/easier to just have one person or a small team debug the maps instead of trying to contact the original authors to fix their maps (seeing as most of them are Korean and most maps were made years ago).
There would be an annoying language barrier, and how would you even contact some of the ones that left the scene years ago?
As a mapmaker myself I understand the possible issue of having others altering your work, but when it comes to maps that are being played on international ladders and in tournaments with thousands of dollars on the line, I believe quality and debugging outweighs the possible unhappiness an individual mapmaker may have for unwelcome alterations to their maps. Basically it’s a benefit to a whole playerbase at one person’s possible expense. I personally wouldn’t mind (in fact Freakling has debugged a few of my maps already, thank you very much mate).
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51392 Posts
technically the maps are the property of blizzard so they can do whatever they'd like with them?
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They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps.
La Mancha has a swastika?
Also the swastika is a well known religious symbol that dates back thousands of years. It's not the Nazi symbol.
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On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps.
Has Blizzard issued an official statement to that effect? I only know of them banning some one for remaking Sniper Ridge for SC2 at some point.
On August 23 2018 20:24 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps. La Mancha has a swastika? Also the swastika is a well known religious symbol that dates back thousands of years. It's not the Nazi symbol. Unfortunately it's the other way around, as far as most people's spontaneous associations go. At least in "western" countries. Seeing a swastika on La Mancha requires some willful stretch of imagination, though. And the swastika-like pattern on Sniper Ridge has probably never been intended to form a symbol of any kind but is a pattern emergent from the layout of the ridges. That being said, the swastika shape could easily be obscured by adding terrain textures that, following a basic camouflage principle, go against the outlines of the lap, albeit at the price of reducing map readability for the player.
These things are a bit off-topic, though. "Swastikas" may offend some people, but they aren't bugs by any stretch of imagination.
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On August 23 2018 20:24 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps. La Mancha has a swastika? Also the swastika is a well known religious symbol that dates back thousands of years. It's not the Nazi symbol.
yea i know but regardless they don't wanna use the maps just to avoid any controversy
On August 23 2018 21:29 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps. Has Blizzard issued an official statement to that effect? I only know of them banning some one for remaking Sniper Ridge for SC2 at some point. Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 20:24 Qikz wrote:On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps. La Mancha has a swastika? Also the swastika is a well known religious symbol that dates back thousands of years. It's not the Nazi symbol. Unfortunately it's the other way around, as far as most people's spontaneous associations go. At least in "western" countries. Seeing a swastika on La Mancha requires some willful stretch of imagination, though. And the swastika-like pattern on Sniper Ridge has probably never been intended to form a symbol of any kind but is a pattern emergent from the layout of the ridges. That being said, the swastika shape could easily be obscured by adding terrain textures that, following a basic camouflage principle, go against the outlines of the lap, albeit at the price of reducing map readability for the player. These things are a bit off-topic, though. "Swastikas" may offend some people, but they aren't bugs by any stretch of imagination.
thats what i was told by a dev
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/7/70/La_Mancha.jpg/400px-La_Mancha.jpg)
the midd highgrounds + the rocks around them is what gives it the appearance of a swastika
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On August 23 2018 18:54 GTR wrote:
technically the maps are the property of blizzard so they can do whatever they'd like with them?
What give you that idea?
A: Staredit EULA doesn't (or at least didn't) have a term assigning copyright to blizzard
B: That is likely not enforceable
C: Since those maps were all made with scmdraft, if anything they belong to me, along with royalties for their use
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Really embarrassing nobody seems to care about these bugs, the one thing about tastosis casting that bothers me is they seem to act like they know all there is to know already. So the things they dont know, like how building sizes work with regards to which units get blocked by a wall (just trial and error man thats BW for ya), why ramps are bugged (just on the jungle maps tho), how damage type and unit sizes interact (corsairs just wreck wraiths man idk why just how it is), why reavers sometimes dont shoot (yeah reavers bug sometimes when attacking down), is just a mystery. Obviously not their fault sorry for the tangent lol anyway someone at Blizzard and/or afreeca really should get om this. Thanks freakling.
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Couldn't they just vertically reflect the map^ and then the swastica would be reflected, and since it's not symmetrical that way it would no longer be there?
Edit: oh, they already did reverse the direction of the shape! Well then it is not a Nazi swastica plain and simple. I doubt that Blizzard is banning the map for that reason, then.
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Idk but that just sounds like a stupid reason to not include a map in a map pool. Whenever you make a map with rotational symmetry (usually with 4 spawns) you inadvertently run the chance that the terrain will form something that resembles the simple geometric form of the swastika, which is really just a symbol that had been used before the Nazis (ask the Japanese, Indians, etc) but unfortunately was appropriated by them and to this day is stigmatized in the West because of this association. The shape as a symbol was ruined in the same way the toothbrush moustache (the “Hitler moustache”) was as a choice of facial hair-style. If that is the case as to why the map was not chosen, these are the beginnings of a ridiculous conspiracy theory. Or incredibly extreme risk aversion.
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Jeez, I really hope that's not the reason we haven't seen La Mancha. It was one of my favourite maps. Sniper ridge, yeah. In my mind that's still the "swastika map" but that's about all the thought I give it, once you're in the game all you see is ramps. La Mancha however, seriously? How desperate to see one there do you have to be? I'm pretty sure anybody can google "la mancha" and see that it's very clearly supposed to be a windmill.
Are they so fearful of being accused of subversively promoting fascism by including subliminal nazi imagery (so subliminal you squint and turn your head a bit to see it) in a 20 year old game?
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I miss Sniper Ridge, it shouldve become the new FS.
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Inspiring stuff man, thank you for doing it!
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On September 06 2018 08:47 JungleTerrain wrote:
Idk but that just sounds like a stupid reason to not include a map in a map pool. Whenever you make a map with rotational symmetry (usually with 4 spawns) you inadvertently run the chance that the terrain will form something that resembles the simple geometric form of the swastika, which is really just a symbol that had been used before the Nazis (ask the Japanese, Indians, etc) but unfortunately was appropriated by them and to this day is stigmatized in the West because of this association. The shape as a symbol was ruined in the same way the toothbrush moustache (the “Hitler moustache”) was as a choice of facial hair-style. If that is the case as to why the map was not chosen, these are the beginnings of a ridiculous conspiracy theory. Or incredibly extreme risk aversion.
When in doubt "incredible risk aversion" is exactly the modus operandi of big companies with big marketing and legal departments…
But when La Mancha (clearly a windmill!) can be regarded as a "swastika", then what actually makes a swastika? Because, as jungle points out, any 4× rotationally symmetric shape shares properties with a swastika to some degree. Where's the threshold? Absolutely serious question. Regard these for example:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Like on a scale from 0 to 10 – how swastika-like is either of these? If any of these turns out to actually not be a swastika then making Sniper Ridge more "palatable" simply becomes a matter of applying just the right kind and amount of distortion to its basic structure (if all fails a three player map with a similar structure could also be considered).
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On September 06 2018 11:21 sM.Zik wrote:
I miss Sniper Ridge, it shouldve become the new FS.
Pls no. No more Lurker contains pls.
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Ironically it was the nazis who banned art and literature because they took offence to 'modern' and 'abstract' art. And now we ban something because if you squint the image kind of looks like a nazi. Especially la mancha; i've played on it but I'd never seen the swastika until it was pointed out in this thread. And I've drawn plenty of swastikas in my youth!
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What always bugs me about these discussions is that the nazi-swastika's hooks point to the right (clock-wise)... and on Mancha and Sniper they point the other way, counter-clock-wise... so it's not the exact shape of a nazi-swastika to begin with. Also the nazi-symbol always rests/sits on a tip, on an "ellbow" of one of its four arms, so one more detail where Sniper is actually not depicting it.
But of course, who'd pay attention to that when "Aah, look, nazi-symbols in computer games!"
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Yes, let's ban the symbol of spirituality that's been around for thousands of years because it was a hate symbol in western society for a few years.
I would also prefer to ban that map "Gladiator", as it reminds me of the mass-slaughter of gladiators under the roman empire.
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Could we please keep this thread constructive and not just vent your frustration about whether or not the general emotionally loaded perception of swastika-like looking shapes is justified or not. It's not a new discussion and any pedantry about which way around it is pointing and whether it stands on its tip or not is not going to change that as people are generally able to abstract and hence will perceive a shape as what it is even if its not a perfect match. Not even the Nazis used just one specific version of the Swastika, as any one who'd actually take a glance at the Wikipedia article about swastikas would realize.
You won't change people's perception, nor Blizzard's position. And the whole discussion does not even belong in this topic either way. So please make constructive suggestions as to how the issue could be circumvented (at least give your opinion about my suggestions for alternative shapes) or post your opinion elsewhere.
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On September 06 2018 19:17 Freakling wrote:Could we please keep this thread constructive and not just vent your frustration about whether or not the general emotionally loaded perception of swastika-like looking shapes is justified or not. It's not a new discussion and any pedantry about which way around it is pointing and whether it stands on its tip or not is not going to change that as people are generally able to abstract and hence will perceive a shape as what it is even if its not a perfect match. Not even the Nazis used just one specific version of the Swastika, as any one who'd actually take a glance at the Wikipedia article about swastikas would realize. You won't change people's perception, nor Blizzard's position. And the whole discussion does not even belong in this topic either way. So please make constructive suggestions as to how the issue could be circumvented (at least give your opinion about my suggestions for alternative shapes) or post your opinion elsewhere.
What about curved high grounds, making them look more like a spiral or 4-armed starfish instead of straight line high grounds?
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That's exactly my suggestion.
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