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United Kingdom12029 Posts
On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps.
La Mancha has a swastika?
Also the swastika is a well known religious symbol that dates back thousands of years. It's not the Nazi symbol.
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On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps.
Has Blizzard issued an official statement to that effect? I only know of them banning some one for remaking Sniper Ridge for SC2 at some point.
On August 23 2018 20:24 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps. La Mancha has a swastika? Also the swastika is a well known religious symbol that dates back thousands of years. It's not the Nazi symbol. Unfortunately it's the other way around, as far as most people's spontaneous associations go. At least in "western" countries. Seeing a swastika on La Mancha requires some willful stretch of imagination, though. And the swastika-like pattern on Sniper Ridge has probably never been intended to form a symbol of any kind but is a pattern emergent from the layout of the ridges. That being said, the swastika shape could easily be obscured by adding terrain textures that, following a basic camouflage principle, go against the outlines of the lap, albeit at the price of reducing map readability for the player.
These things are a bit off-topic, though. "Swastikas" may offend some people, but they aren't bugs by any stretch of imagination.
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On August 23 2018 20:24 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps. La Mancha has a swastika? Also the swastika is a well known religious symbol that dates back thousands of years. It's not the Nazi symbol.
yea i know but regardless they don't wanna use the maps just to avoid any controversy
On August 23 2018 21:29 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps. Has Blizzard issued an official statement to that effect? I only know of them banning some one for remaking Sniper Ridge for SC2 at some point. Show nested quote +On August 23 2018 20:24 Qikz wrote:On August 23 2018 20:18 TT1 wrote:
They need to do something about the swastikas on La Mancha/Sniper Ridge. Unless they get removed those maps won't get added to the map pool or blizz events. It's unfortunate cus they're both good maps. La Mancha has a swastika? Also the swastika is a well known religious symbol that dates back thousands of years. It's not the Nazi symbol. Unfortunately it's the other way around, as far as most people's spontaneous associations go. At least in "western" countries. Seeing a swastika on La Mancha requires some willful stretch of imagination, though. And the swastika-like pattern on Sniper Ridge has probably never been intended to form a symbol of any kind but is a pattern emergent from the layout of the ridges. That being said, the swastika shape could easily be obscured by adding terrain textures that, following a basic camouflage principle, go against the outlines of the lap, albeit at the price of reducing map readability for the player. These things are a bit off-topic, though. "Swastikas" may offend some people, but they aren't bugs by any stretch of imagination.
thats what i was told by a dev
![[image loading]](https://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/7/70/La_Mancha.jpg/400px-La_Mancha.jpg)
the midd highgrounds + the rocks around them is what gives it the appearance of a swastika
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On August 23 2018 18:54 GTR wrote:
technically the maps are the property of blizzard so they can do whatever they'd like with them?
What give you that idea?
A: Staredit EULA doesn't (or at least didn't) have a term assigning copyright to blizzard
B: That is likely not enforceable
C: Since those maps were all made with scmdraft, if anything they belong to me, along with royalties for their use 
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Really embarrassing nobody seems to care about these bugs, the one thing about tastosis casting that bothers me is they seem to act like they know all there is to know already. So the things they dont know, like how building sizes work with regards to which units get blocked by a wall (just trial and error man thats BW for ya), why ramps are bugged (just on the jungle maps tho), how damage type and unit sizes interact (corsairs just wreck wraiths man idk why just how it is), why reavers sometimes dont shoot (yeah reavers bug sometimes when attacking down), is just a mystery. Obviously not their fault sorry for the tangent lol anyway someone at Blizzard and/or afreeca really should get om this. Thanks freakling.
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Couldn't they just vertically reflect the map^ and then the swastica would be reflected, and since it's not symmetrical that way it would no longer be there?
Edit: oh, they already did reverse the direction of the shape! Well then it is not a Nazi swastica plain and simple. I doubt that Blizzard is banning the map for that reason, then.
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Idk but that just sounds like a stupid reason to not include a map in a map pool. Whenever you make a map with rotational symmetry (usually with 4 spawns) you inadvertently run the chance that the terrain will form something that resembles the simple geometric form of the swastika, which is really just a symbol that had been used before the Nazis (ask the Japanese, Indians, etc) but unfortunately was appropriated by them and to this day is stigmatized in the West because of this association. The shape as a symbol was ruined in the same way the toothbrush moustache (the “Hitler moustache”) was as a choice of facial hair-style. If that is the case as to why the map was not chosen, these are the beginnings of a ridiculous conspiracy theory. Or incredibly extreme risk aversion.
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Jeez, I really hope that's not the reason we haven't seen La Mancha. It was one of my favourite maps. Sniper ridge, yeah. In my mind that's still the "swastika map" but that's about all the thought I give it, once you're in the game all you see is ramps. La Mancha however, seriously? How desperate to see one there do you have to be? I'm pretty sure anybody can google "la mancha" and see that it's very clearly supposed to be a windmill.
Are they so fearful of being accused of subversively promoting fascism by including subliminal nazi imagery (so subliminal you squint and turn your head a bit to see it) in a 20 year old game?
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I miss Sniper Ridge, it shouldve become the new FS.
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Inspiring stuff man, thank you for doing it!
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On September 06 2018 08:47 JungleTerrain wrote:
Idk but that just sounds like a stupid reason to not include a map in a map pool. Whenever you make a map with rotational symmetry (usually with 4 spawns) you inadvertently run the chance that the terrain will form something that resembles the simple geometric form of the swastika, which is really just a symbol that had been used before the Nazis (ask the Japanese, Indians, etc) but unfortunately was appropriated by them and to this day is stigmatized in the West because of this association. The shape as a symbol was ruined in the same way the toothbrush moustache (the “Hitler moustache”) was as a choice of facial hair-style. If that is the case as to why the map was not chosen, these are the beginnings of a ridiculous conspiracy theory. Or incredibly extreme risk aversion.
When in doubt "incredible risk aversion" is exactly the modus operandi of big companies with big marketing and legal departments…
But when La Mancha (clearly a windmill!) can be regarded as a "swastika", then what actually makes a swastika? Because, as jungle points out, any 4× rotationally symmetric shape shares properties with a swastika to some degree. Where's the threshold? Absolutely serious question. Regard these for example:
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
+ Show Spoiler +
Like on a scale from 0 to 10 – how swastika-like is either of these? If any of these turns out to actually not be a swastika then making Sniper Ridge more "palatable" simply becomes a matter of applying just the right kind and amount of distortion to its basic structure (if all fails a three player map with a similar structure could also be considered).
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On September 06 2018 11:21 sM.Zik wrote:
I miss Sniper Ridge, it shouldve become the new FS.
Pls no. No more Lurker contains pls.
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Ironically it was the nazis who banned art and literature because they took offence to 'modern' and 'abstract' art. And now we ban something because if you squint the image kind of looks like a nazi. Especially la mancha; i've played on it but I'd never seen the swastika until it was pointed out in this thread. And I've drawn plenty of swastikas in my youth!
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What always bugs me about these discussions is that the nazi-swastika's hooks point to the right (clock-wise)... and on Mancha and Sniper they point the other way, counter-clock-wise... so it's not the exact shape of a nazi-swastika to begin with. Also the nazi-symbol always rests/sits on a tip, on an "ellbow" of one of its four arms, so one more detail where Sniper is actually not depicting it.
But of course, who'd pay attention to that when "Aah, look, nazi-symbols in computer games!"
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Yes, let's ban the symbol of spirituality that's been around for thousands of years because it was a hate symbol in western society for a few years.
I would also prefer to ban that map "Gladiator", as it reminds me of the mass-slaughter of gladiators under the roman empire.
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Could we please keep this thread constructive and not just vent your frustration about whether or not the general emotionally loaded perception of swastika-like looking shapes is justified or not. It's not a new discussion and any pedantry about which way around it is pointing and whether it stands on its tip or not is not going to change that as people are generally able to abstract and hence will perceive a shape as what it is even if its not a perfect match. Not even the Nazis used just one specific version of the Swastika, as any one who'd actually take a glance at the Wikipedia article about swastikas would realize.
You won't change people's perception, nor Blizzard's position. And the whole discussion does not even belong in this topic either way. So please make constructive suggestions as to how the issue could be circumvented (at least give your opinion about my suggestions for alternative shapes) or post your opinion elsewhere.
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On September 06 2018 19:17 Freakling wrote:Could we please keep this thread constructive and not just vent your frustration about whether or not the general emotionally loaded perception of swastika-like looking shapes is justified or not. It's not a new discussion and any pedantry about which way around it is pointing and whether it stands on its tip or not is not going to change that as people are generally able to abstract and hence will perceive a shape as what it is even if its not a perfect match. Not even the Nazis used just one specific version of the Swastika, as any one who'd actually take a glance at the Wikipedia article about swastikas would realize. You won't change people's perception, nor Blizzard's position. And the whole discussion does not even belong in this topic either way. So please make constructive suggestions as to how the issue could be circumvented (at least give your opinion about my suggestions for alternative shapes) or post your opinion elsewhere.
What about curved high grounds, making them look more like a spiral or 4-armed starfish instead of straight line high grounds?
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That's exactly my suggestion.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/vpulJIy.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/aooLRGS.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/CY3zmto.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/n0ZTtUR.jpg)
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/opgviTz.jpg)
