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On July 20 2018 13:19 Freakling wrote:I already posted a version that fixed the vortex and a a few other quick to fix issues (holes in ramps, bridge blends being screwed up by HD graohics) about a year ago. I even sent the link to Afreeca admins. But that's the crucial point here: The responsible for the big tournaments still seem to be completely oblivious as to the state of the art of melee map making. I guess they need more of a shitstorm from players about it. Afreeca seems to not even be able to enforce the minimal quality standard (such as smooth mining for all bases – they don't even make a mention of any other serious bugs) they set for their map contests (although it would be reasonable to allow for a lot of negligence in first versions, as complete bugfixing is best left till last, when the layout is completely finalized – but I feel that this is a general agreement and discussion we have not achieved yet). Most players are probably just worn down by decades of bad compromises that more or less forced them to just live with all kinds of crazy shenanigans. "It's just the game. Brood War, man, it's crazy!" – Literally Tastetosis whenever something happens that they don't fully understand. So the question stands: How can the top level players and tourney hosts be made aware of the importance of the issues and how can we instate an actual, reasonable effort to get them fixed, map by map, for at least the ones in current high level competition? Maybe having some open documentation in Korean of bugs and how modern map making tools can get rid of them (and by this point it's actually all of the really serious ones) would help. So if some one is willing to do some translation work, just send me a PM. Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 07:52 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
So that's why marines sometime struggle against dragoons on the ramp... Why Dragoons vs. Marines in particular? If neither of them get stuck on that tile it is not this bug.
Perhaps we could get someone to speak with them in person, ie: tasteless, artosis, rapid
Just a quick mention that a fixed map already exists so that the tournament admins can AT LEAST be made aware of the issue(s) and that the solution is already here.
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On July 20 2018 13:42 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
sometimes my marines go blind on top of the ramp :x
for me it's the only noticeable bug i've experienced personally
that is a different issue that has been addressed before. I believe the problem with that is because sc/bw originally only has 2 ramps, so to create ramps facing other directions, users kinda had to hack it together with a differentiating set of tiles.
One of those tiles is considered low ground or under cover, so that when you have a small unit specifically on that one tile, it will be considered low ground and not have vision of the other tiles around it. You can simply move your marine slightly in any direction and you should regain vision.
Alternatively, you can place your other marine/unit in a spot that does have vision.
You are right though, this shouldn't be an issue and I do believe freakling has fixed this issue on some maps too, no?
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At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact.
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On July 20 2018 14:11 TT1 wrote:
At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact.
I get the impression that blizz has a tendency to ignore the things that get brought up from the community. I do think starting a thread on the official blizz forums and having a lot of supporting replies to it would get their attention though.
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I think it's a good idea to fix the vortex bug on FS and continue playing on it more than anything, I think the biggest issue is that bug on FS.
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On July 20 2018 14:28 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 14:11 TT1 wrote:
At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact. I get the impression that blizz has a tendency to ignore the things that get brought up from the community. I do think starting a thread on the official blizz forums and having a lot of supporting replies to it would get their attention though.
Like i said, Freakling should have their contact (email or PM info on TL). I'm sure Blizz would listen if he'd send them a message.
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On July 20 2018 13:42 CHEONSOYUN wrote:
sometimes my marines go blind on top of the ramp :x
for me it's the only noticeable bug i've experienced personally
That's a Terrain level issue, which I also pointed out in the OP. These are very common. Apart from going blind the Marine would also miss half of his shots, by the way, as he is standing on low ground.
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On July 20 2018 14:59 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 14:28 razorsuKe wrote:On July 20 2018 14:11 TT1 wrote:
At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact. I get the impression that blizz has a tendency to ignore the things that get brought up from the community. I do think starting a thread on the official blizz forums and having a lot of supporting replies to it would get their attention though. Like i said, Freakling should have their contact (email or PM info on TL). I'm sure Blizz would listen if he'd send them a message.
I have already got in contact with both Blizzard and Afreeca staff and brought up the issues, and so far I have been flat out ignored on the matter. No one's even acknowledged it.
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On July 20 2018 16:36 Freakling wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 14:59 TT1 wrote:On July 20 2018 14:28 razorsuKe wrote:On July 20 2018 14:11 TT1 wrote:
At the very least the non buggy version should be sent to Blizz so they can add it to the map pool & KSL. Freakling should have their contact. I get the impression that blizz has a tendency to ignore the things that get brought up from the community. I do think starting a thread on the official blizz forums and having a lot of supporting replies to it would get their attention though. Like i said, Freakling should have their contact (email or PM info on TL). I'm sure Blizz would listen if he'd send them a message. I have already got in contact with both Blizzard and Afreeca staff and brought up the issues, and so far I have been flat out ignored on the matter. No one's even acknowledged it.
Well i don't know anything about the people who run Afreeca but i'm sure Matt Sherman (Blizz dev) would listen to you if you send him a PM/tweet/email. I don't remember what his TL id is but here's his twitter in case you don't have it: https://twitter.com/MattShermanSC
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Cadenzie is the best possible messenger for this atm, isn't she?
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Oh i remember that. Just try to update it. Must help
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Amazing work! Thank you for sharing it!
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Artosis in VOD:
oh no, and he got that little bug. There is a bug on ramps that go down at this angle on Jungle tileset. [...]
Sorry, completely wrong. It's got noting to do with ramps, the angle or the Tileset. You can have this in any tileset on any kind of terrain, as long as it's unwalkable. And if it would affect all Jungle ramps, it would be even more prevlent, given the map pool.
I just hope the players have a better idea about the mechanics than the casters. On the other hand, if the general idea really is "that's just Jungle ramps, can't do nuthin' about it" then at least I understand why there is such a lethargy regarding these bugs...
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Good work!
I hope someone can push this to Blizzard/Afreeca.
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United Kingdom12029 Posts
On July 20 2018 14:40 GGzerG wrote:
I think it's a good idea to fix the vortex bug on FS and continue playing on it more than anything, I think the biggest issue is that bug on FS.
If the maps never evolve the meta is never going to change. That's the problem with playing nothing but FS and also why BW always evolved. The maps have always evolved.
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(2)Autobahn
+ Show Spoiler [for detailed desciptions of bugs and c…] ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- Magenta marks instances of Reaver jams. Reavers cannot shoot from one of the respective adjacent red regions into the other, limiting their effective range down to as little as 1. Under specific conditions (like buildings or Ultralisks crossing multiple regions) they cannot shoot at all. This is due to distance calculations being thrown off due to regions being close together but having far spaced out nodes. Those wedge-like narrow strips protruding from the magenta regions are a typical manifestation of this kind of bug. One instance is in front of the nat choke, one is right down a ramp, another one is in the S main, close to the SL, all strategic spots with high likelyhood of Reaver usage, so these bug are likely to actually occur (most likely unnoticed) in a game.
To be fair, Waldstein cannot really be blamed for this, as I only investigated this type of bug very recently and this thread is the first source of information about it, as far as I know. So he can't be expected to have known.
- Green marks terrain level bugs ("blind spots") on the reverse ramps. No idea why these haven't been fixed right away as that trivial to do.
- The two red circles in the top main mark vortex bugs. These are both only Ultra vortices and they are fairly out of the way, so not a real issue as they are very unlikely to ever actually occur in a real game. Personally I still like to fix stuff like this, which usually fairly easily done anyway, It's made a bit harder here by the tiles next to the cliff being made buildable through custom terrain editing, so mostly walkable tiles cannot just be switched out for mostly unwalkable ones. On the other hand pathfinding will have to be adjusted to fix those Reaver jams anyway, so these might just disappear as a by-effect
- I also found two mineral patches with worker pathing problems. The first is at the 6 o'clock base. Yellow marks the optimal resource depot location and corresponding region. Cyan marks the affected mineral patch and its corresponding region. The path marked out in cyan is the expected (optimal) worker path for that patch, the path sketched in red is what occurs here instead.
The second mining issue is very minor. Due to being right on a region border the bottommost mineral patch in the bottom main lacks a straight, slightly faster path.
(3)Sylphide
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- As I said in my first impressions post this map is very well made and the only real bugs are three Ultra vortices in the left main, marked in red. These are probably not worth the bother to fix them, but it could be done very easily although, like on Autobahn, the edge tile next to the cliff not being proper cliff tiles makes it a bit harder.
- Not really a bug, but worth pointing out: With a mineral formation mostly on top of the resource depot, the top SL should have an altered worker spawn (like on Roadkill or Transistor) or splits will be delayed (yellow circle).
- Also not a bug but actually the contrary, so I it include it here because it is worth pointing out as most map makers probably don't know about this nice little detail yet: In both the left and right mains, a horizontal region border on the mineral side, exactly one tile down from the top edge of the resource depot, straightens out the path from the topmost mineral patch (red path), which would otherwise be a (non-optimal) diagonal path (cyan path), slightly speeding up gathering rates at those patches (see highlighted patches and regions).
- At the cyan circle at the top centre base gas workers can respawn and get stuck behind the geyser.
(3)Neo Transistor
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- I found two vortex bugs, marked with red circles. The one near the ramp in the left main could become problematic with ramp congestion and worker drilling involved.
- Seems like the map, or at least the updated version, was not debugged with regards to mining at all. There are lots of worker pathing issues, particularly in the left main, where a whopping 3/10 patches are affected. As always the critical regions are highlighted and the buggy worker paths marked out in red.
- The Khaydarin Crystals (yellow circles) in the mains still cause stack bugs, where part of the initial resource depot can be built on. This is old news, of course, and they probably consider it a feature or acceptable trade-off. I still hold a strong opinion that disabled installation doors would offer a much cleaner solution here though.
- And lastly something funny: There's also a little Engrish bug in the map description – it reads "Thanks to play this map." (I guess he meant to thank you for playing this map.)
(5)Labyrtinth
+ Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler [show image] +- There's a whole plethora of Reaver jam locations around the middle (magenta regions, affected regions in red.
- Even though the "standard issue" reverse ramps have been customized for this map, what's still there are the terrain level bugs ("blind spots"), marked by green circles.
- Two vortex bugs, marked with red circles.
- There are two almost identical worker pathfinding problems, where a worker has to take a long detour to return minerals (see red paths, relevant regions highlighted as usual).
- Orange circles: Not really a bug, just very shoddy looking terrain editing. These little high ground nooks are meant to be hiding places for flag-bearing workers. Apart from the aesthetical aspect I feel like a perfect chance was passed by here to design something nice, using vision blocking tiles. With all the flashy weird stuff thrown into this map, why let this more modest but far less problematic innovation lay by the wayside?
- While not a real bug, it is probably not at all clear to players where the central high ground begins and ends. All the textures and sprites only further obscure things unlike you already know what's up. This should have been done in a more standard and intuitive way.
- And those double ramps are just annoying with a strong propensity of units to get stuck on the wrong one because path lengths are just so similar. This on top of the awkward shape of the main and the flag and gate mechanics makes it even more annoying to play the map. Even rallying units becomes a micro challenge. It's just bad.
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On July 23 2018 02:35 Freakling wrote:
[Reserved for new ASL6 test maps]
So... "The problems with old AND new maps"? :D
"The problems with all maps" XD
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What I don't get is why Blizzard haven't already freaking hired Freakling to consult on quality control issues.
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On July 23 2018 03:33 bITt.mAN wrote:
What I don't get is why Blizzard haven't already freaking hired Freakling to consult on quality control issues.
Freaking for president! Or at least: map quality manager.
I hope blizzard/afreeca implements the fixes soon (TM)
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Unfortunately I don’t think afreeca or blizzard care much about quality control, or rather don’t see the need for it. I think if more bugs show up on the big stage, during televised matches opinions might change.
And another thing, fixing ALL the old maps would take a while. Better to just do one mappool for an event/league at a time. It’s not very worth it for somebody to do it unless they get some compensation.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/oqcEQzb.jpg)
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