EPTalso please remove FS omg we have had new maps introduced! keep them alive by keeping them in the new tournaments..
Korea StarCraft League - Page 10
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konadora
Singapore66071 Posts
also please remove FS omg we have had new maps introduced! keep them alive by keeping them in the new tournaments.. | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
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lemmata
468 Posts
Larva (also an Afreeca partner) is playing in the KSL, so I assume this means that this isn't an Afreeca issue? | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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nbaker
United States1341 Posts
On June 26 2018 10:49 konadora wrote: bo7 will be too much of a burnout? but at the same time more games and no guaranteed quick finals like snow vs rain.. also please remove FS omg we have had new maps introduced! keep them alive by keeping them in the new tournaments.. Yes, I totally agree. BO7 is too long for broodwar imo! Best of five is perfect. | ||
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Levque
88 Posts
I'm ok with Bo7 but I can see how player stamina might be a issue if all the games are 25+ minutes...but that should be super rare. I'm just glad to watch a tournament that is different from the Bo1/double elimination format in ASL which has gotten a little stale for me. | ||
Waxangel
United States33075 Posts
On June 26 2018 10:49 BigFan wrote: They are still a company after all and BW history isn't so old that the past can be easily forgotten. I don't agree with this general tone where people think it's obvious that Blizzard has this long history of wrongdoing to "atone" for. They were clearly in the right regarding the broadcast rights dispute with KeSPA. Remember, KeSPA basically ceded total defeat. Blizzard's claims regarding their IP rights is basically the undisputed industry standard today with every broadcaster, production company, and game publisher. Unless you hold very radical views about intellectual property in general, across every field and industry, then you can't fault Blizzard there. I think BW fans want to believe that it was Blizzard who forced KeSPA to switch StarCraft II after the IP dispute ended in 2012. However, it could just as easily be claimed that KeSPA was making a desperate move to try and keep StarCraft esports going. However, there's basically no credible reporting regarding what went on behind the scenes, so it's just speculation either way. The credible grievance is the supposed $100,000 licensing fee Blizzard charged AfreecaTV to hold ASL, as claimed by AfreecaTV. This sounded absolutely ludicrous to me at the onset, but after hearing mixed accounts from people in the scene, I've become more willing to give it some credence. As far as Blizzard refuses to squash the claim publicly, then BW fans are entitled to crush them for it. [Ofc if you're not just talking about esports, and pointing out SC:R and its bugs and lack of features, then I'll step out of the way] | ||
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lemmata
468 Posts
It would be ridiculous for a new era of BW to begin with its greatest player missing in action. I know we shouldn't make exceptions for players but this is an exceptional circumstance. EDIT: FWIW, Flash said that he really wants to play in the KSL but cannot because he made this commitment a long time ago. He said he's been warned to keep the details of the China event secret but video will be uploaded to his YouTube channel afterwards per their agreement. I have seen one baseless rumor claiming that it's a Chinese government event but there was nothing to support that claim. | ||
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Timebon3s
Norway613 Posts
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Freezard
Sweden1002 Posts
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 26 2018 23:47 Waxangel wrote: I don't agree with this general tone where people think it's obvious that Blizzard has this long history of wrongdoing to "atone" for. They were clearly in the right regarding the broadcast rights dispute with KeSPA. Remember, KeSPA basically ceded total defeat. Blizzard's claims regarding their IP rights is basically the undisputed industry standard today with every broadcaster, production company, and game publisher. Unless you hold very radical views about intellectual property in general, across every field and industry, then you can't fault Blizzard there. I think BW fans want to believe that it was Blizzard who forced KeSPA to switch StarCraft II after the IP dispute ended in 2012. However, it could just as easily be claimed that KeSPA was making a desperate move to try and keep StarCraft esports going. However, there's basically no credible reporting regarding what went on behind the scenes, so it's just speculation either way. The credible grievance is the supposed $100,000 licensing fee Blizzard charged AfreecaTV to hold ASL, as claimed by AfreecaTV. This sounded absolutely ludicrous to me at the onset, but after hearing mixed accounts from people in the scene, I've become more willing to give it some credence. As far as Blizzard refuses to squash the claim publicly, then BW fans are entitled to crush them for it. [Ofc if you're not just talking about esports, and pointing out SC:R and its bugs and lack of features, then I'll step out of the way] After Blizzard had all other possible recourses shut down, yes, it could be argued that KeSPA alone came to the conclusion that professional Brood War was no longer worth persuing. However, if you are being intellectually honest, and have read all the official announcements from KeSPA before Blizzard broke them down, it is clear as daylight that Brood War was by far the main point of focus for KeSPA, and they clearly expressed having zero intentions of scraping everything for a gaming product that had utterly failed to captivate the Korean gaming community by large at the time of the switch. The entire professional Brood War scene came about due to a blatant disregard for those intellectual property right laws you hold dear. Almost everything that we discuss today on these forums, are derived from content from people who were involved heavily in unauthorized activity that we called the Brood War e-Sports scene. The way you emphasize how Blizzard will forever be immune from all criticism due to the legalities make it sound like you couldn't wait for the legal wrong to be corrected, because who cares about competitive Brood War except for those delusional Brood War fans, right? It is an irrefutable fact that professional Brood War wouldn't have ended in 2012 in such a ham-fisted manner without Blizzard's involvement with the industry at the time. Perhaps a legal wrong that went on for over a decade was corrected, but at what cost? It was a Pyrrhic victory if I ever saw one. If anything, it was Riot Gaming that benefitted the most from Blizzard's heavy involvement with the Korean e-Sports scene, not KeSPa, not the fans of Brood War, and not even Blizzard themselves. Considering the colossal level of fuck-ups Blizzard has been responsible for in the past, a little apprehension is to be expected, really. | ||
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lestye
United States4135 Posts
It is an irrefutable fact that professional Brood War wouldn't have ended in 2012 in such a ham-fisted manner without Blizzard's involvement with the industry at the time. Is that really a fact? Given the state of Kespa is right now, and the state of esports sponsorships being completely stagnant in Korea across all titles, I don't think it would have lasted much longer after that. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 27 2018 01:55 lestye wrote: Is that really a fact? Given the state of Kespa is right now, and the state of esports sponsorships being completely stagnant in Korea across all titles, I don't think it would have lasted much longer after that. What? Are you trying to argue that the professional Brood War scene would have gone off air entirely by 2012 with all the professional Brood War teams liquidated even without Blizzard's intervention? Even with Blizzard's lawsuit versus both broadcasting studios in 2010 that eventually ended in the shutting down of MBC Game Studios, KeSPA's dramatic change in their policies, the entire industry falling under disrepute due to the ongoing lawsuits, Ongamenet's last ever StarLeague topped the charts for its intended demographic of young Korean males. In fact, the scene survived solely due to the fans who never wanted Brood War gone. Sure professional Brood War probably would have lost its prime time slot to League of Legends (not being the number one e-Sports is vastly different from being non-existent), but if a deadweight professional scene like Starcraft 2 (in terms of domestic viability) survived this long, there is no logical method of explaning how professional Brood War abruptly would have vanished without Blizzard's intervention. Go on. Try to be specific and reason with me how such a scenario would have happened. | ||
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HansenZ
49 Posts
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lestye
United States4135 Posts
On June 27 2018 02:12 Letmelose wrote: What? Are you trying to argue that the professional Brood War scene would have gone off air entirely by 2012 with all the professional teams liquidated even without Blizzard's intervention? Maybe not 2012, but not much longer, given the state of esports sponsorships now, even in the esports of the most popular game in the world. Keep in mind, OGN had a license to run a BW league in 2014 and didnt do anything with it. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
On June 27 2018 02:24 lestye wrote: Maybe not 2012, but not much longer, given the state of esports sponsorships now, even in the esports of the most popular game in the world. Keep in mind, OGN had a license to run a BW league in 2014 and didnt do anything with it. Then my statement stands. There is a huge difference between struggling financially and no longer being the big dog, and being gone altogether. How does Ongamenet choosing not to rejuvenate a dead scene that already had the vast majority of its prior professionals playing another gaming title prove anything? Were you expecting them to create new teams to lure players back years after the switch had been forcibly made? | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
I would honestly doubt that even if SC2 hadn't been released, BW wouldn't have had a massive decline from 2013 onwards. | ||
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lestye
United States4135 Posts
On June 27 2018 02:34 Letmelose wrote: Then my statement stands. There is a huge difference between struggling financially and no longer being the big dog, and being gone altogether. How does Ongamenet choosing not to rejuvenate a dead scene that already had the vast majority of its prior professionals playing another gaming title prove anything? Were you expecting them to create new teams to lure players back years after the switch had been forcibly made? I think my point was more along the lines if, if the TOP DOG, the most popular game in the world, is struggling, teams are dropping like flies, then how much hope/room was there for Starcraft? And OnGameNet didnt need to create new teams to run a league, that's Kespa's prerogative. All OGN had to do was run the league, but they couldn't. Similar to Afreeca. And the scene was only gone for 1 year for that opportunity, and they opted not to. There is/was serious sponsorship problems around that time, and its still lingering to this day. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33075 Posts
On June 27 2018 01:21 Letmelose wrote: It is an irrefutable fact that professional Brood War wouldn't have ended in 2012 in such a ham-fisted manner without Blizzard's involvement with the industry at the time. Perhaps a legal wrong that went on for over a decade was corrected, but at what cost? It was a Pyrrhic victory if I ever saw one. If anything, it was Riot Gaming that benefitted the most from Blizzard's heavy involvement with the Korean e-Sports scene, not KeSPa, not the fans of Brood War, and not even Blizzard themselves. That's a very skewed way of stating it, trying to attach malice to happenstance. Blizzard happened to make StarCraft II, KeSPA happened to start a ill-advised IP dispute in 2007, and things played out in a certain way. None of the parties do this with the intent that KeSPA backed Brood War dies in 2012. I know people want to arrive at the conclusion of "Blizzard wanted to kill Brood War" very badly, but it's not so simple. Anyway I feel like I've let this go way off-topic for no reason so I'll just stop here (sorry for derailing when I keep telling ppl not to derail). Some people believe that every move not done solely in the interest of KeSPA Brood War was a bad move (it's one of the biggest "single-issue voter" things on TL), and if you're a hardcore Korean BW fan, I can sorta understand why you would feel that way. | ||
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Letmelose
Korea (South)3227 Posts
Even if your family member was suffering from terminal illness, it does not mean that it is just for a society to treat him in any manner they see fit until he "happens" to die then proceed to deny all charges citing a lack of medical evidence, or just telling the family to "move on" and know their goddamned place in the world. This fixation upon the exact detailing of the intentions from Blizzard for their actions, and the sorry state of the scene in general (much of which was brought about due to the law suits in the first place), to excuse Blizzard from any responsibility makes it sound like you are both Blizzard fans over Brood War fans. If you see an distraught family member disheartened from a loss of a loved one, the last thing you should do is taunt the guy about how imminent the desmise was anyways, and trivializing his desperation to have a few more years together to the very bitter end with someone he has grown to love more than anything. You seem to care more about the wording with which I present the facts, in that it could shed Blizzard in a negative light, than give any pause to think about the magnitude of the actual catastrophe that took place (just because you don't mind it being gone so much, doesn't mean others felt the same). What about all the unfinished narratives? Did FanTaSy truly usurp Flash as the number one terran player? What about JangBi, would we see more of the fantastic form he displayed towards the end of professional Brood War? Would Bisu break free from his three year individual league drought? Who would become the next great players? Where were the new bloods such as hydra, Soulkey, BoGus, and By.Sun going to end up? Instead we are here talking about random female streamers and rejoicing the creation of a new league that doesn't even have all of the limited talent pool we have participating. It's all good, but I would throw it all away without a moments hesitation to have that couple of years (in line with the very conservative estimations) of the professional Brood War scene that was taken away from me. Just like Blizzard had zero hesitation about persuing their goals, even if it resulted in the premature demise of the entire professional Brood War scene. Don't trivialize it. | ||
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