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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
The fact that we are able to detect alternative states or processes outside of what we deem the norm is what allows us to classify a certain set of states or behaviours as cheating. If I can guarantee that nobody enters my room while I'm playing, and that all my matches are online, there is 0 way to determine that I did or did not use a key rebinding program. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:46 L_Master wrote: I'll be honest, I'm totally fine with hotkey changing. That said, you're argument and agitation comes from failing to understand the gripe against hotkeys. You see it as veteran BW players not wanting hotkeys to change because "EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE THE SAME AND WE CAN'T CHANGE ANYTHING OR MAKE IT ANY EASIERE OH GOD NO!" But for the people that are anti hotkey, they see it as a serious change to the game. If I told you that SC2 medivacs were now going to have speed with no upgrade and double the HP, I imagine you wouldn't be thrilled about the change. Why? Because it's a drastic change to the fundamental gameplay. Many of the veterans that are opposed to hotkeys feel the same way about hotkey changes: that it would dramatically and fundamentally alter the game. You may disagree with them about the impact of hotkeys, but being dismissive of the argument like you are isn't really fair nor likely to lead to productive discussion. especially if rebinding hotkeys allows for increase control groups, atm you're pretty limited on having to organise the ratio of unit control to production (unless ur terran and just screen hotkey 6 raxes together...rofl) that plays a big part as its a skill to master. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:42 Eridanus wrote: That's what happens when someone comes along, wants to argue that cheating should only be punished as cheating if you get caught, but refuses to outright admit this, and then bends reality and world view to the extreme, when put under scrutiny. It is annoying and dishonest debating that derails the complete thread. Don't know if he is quite arguing that. His argument seems to be that something isn't cheating if it isn't possible to detect the cheating. The problem there is that anything is theoretically detectable. So in order to run with this argument he basically has to set some arbitrary threshold for how fanciful of a measure it would take for you to get caught before it falls into the realm of can't be/isn't cheating. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11135 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:49 Shock710 wrote: especially if rebinding hotkeys allows for increase control groups, atm you're pretty limited on having to organise the ratio of unit control to production (unless ur terran and just screen hotkey 6 raxes together...rofl) that plays a big part as its a skill to master. I don't think that'll happen. As far as I know, they didn't even implement that in SC2, other than increasing the number of camera position bookmarks for everyone. The implementation in 1.18 was only for just replacing existing hotkeys. | ||
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:49 mishimaBeef wrote: I'm not even arguing that cheating should only be punished if you get caught, I'm arguing there is no basis for the concept definition of cheating if we cannot detect alternative states or processes. The fact that we are able to detect alternative states or processes outside of what we deem the norm is what allows us to classify a certain set of states or behaviours as cheating. If I can guarantee that nobody enters my room while I'm playing, and that all my matches are online, there is 0 way to determine that I did or did not use a key rebinding program. You could never guarantee this. I also suspect someone could probably hack into your computer and determine if there was keybinding usage going on. We know it's a ridiculous situation, but it's still subject to this problem: By your premise, if you're locked in your room playing online using something that remaps hotkeys you're not cheating....but if I got a drone cause I was some psycho dude and flew it outside your window and could see you were using hotkeys you suddenly would be cheating. I'm sorry, but I don't think intentional act can be cheating under some circumstances and not cheating under others. | ||
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F3arless
Canada45 Posts
what about replay parsing and analysis did that change at all? bwchart etc, still works? | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
The issue is nobody is going to go to these extremes and so 99.99% of cheating won't be detected. | ||
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Eridanus
United States75 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:49 mishimaBeef wrote: I'm not even arguing that cheating should only be punished if you get caught, I'm arguing there is no basis for the concept definition of cheating if we cannot detect alternative states or processes. But the nature of the reality where I rebind hotkeys on 'OS level' or on 'SC BW' level, or the reality where I use classic hotkeys are clearly different. And we aren't talking about the colour of a rock on the other side of the universe, where no consciousness with perception in the visible EM range will never see it (not that we need that, even there the realities are distinct, but then you do not seem to believe any reality exists, at all). No. We have one person perceiving it quite clearly. And that is the person playing with the key rebinds. Even if your silly argument was correct, there still is the perception of the person cheating. Yes. No one knows she or he is cheating, except that person herself/himself. So at least one person knows. So even this while metaphysical bullshit about reality not existing and it all only coming down to the perceptions of human individuals, besides it being completely idiocy, still doesn't help you. If you go out now and play SC BW with rebinds that you for a fact will know that what you are doing is cheating in my mind. If you do it, you know I will think you are cheating. So yes, you detected this 'alternative states or process'. Oh, and when someone examines your computer, they will also know. If Blizzard implements proper antihack, they will also know. The fact that we are able to detect alternative states or processes outside of what we deem the norm is what allows us to classify a certain set of states or behaviours as cheating. No. Cheating is cheating regardless of perceptions. If your brother installed SC BW, rebound the hotkeys, you only played SC2, and you start playing your hacked version of SC BW, you are still cheating, even if you don't know it. And even if your brother doesn't know you are playing SC BW in the first place. So literally no person anywhere ever will be aware that you are cheating. Yet still you are. That's why I have to bring up fucking examples that philosophy solved 2000 years ago. Like the tree falling in the forest, or murder also being murder if not all murders get caught. If I can guarantee that nobody enters my room while I'm playing, and that all my matches are online, there is 0 way to determine that I did or did not use a key rebinding program. No. You told me you are a cheater. I already know. You know. I know. And everyone else reading here knows what you are; a cheater. | ||
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shin ken
Germany612 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:34 Eridanus wrote: We don't ban steroids because we can detect them. We ban them so we don't have to force everyone that wants to do sports in any competitive context, from amateur best of your college to Olympics, to be loaded up with 10x to 20x the anabolic activity than would be normal for a male. And then we enforce it and call it cheating out of fairness. You either dispute the existence of a reality, the existence of fairness, or you are trolling. Yes because it's quite unhealthy to be loaded with so many steroids. You know what else is unhealthy? Carpal tunnel syndrome inducing hotkeys from the last decade. If Blizzard doesn't implement custom hotkeys, I will use my programmable keyboard because custom hotkeys is a feature that should be in every RTS (and has been in every other RTS since Brood War [yes BW is superior to those, but not because of bad hotkeys]) | ||
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ImFromPortugal
Portugal1368 Posts
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:57 mishimaBeef wrote: No, I would be cheating in both cases. The issue is nobody is going to go to these extremes and so 99.99% of cheating won't be detected. I agree it won't be detected in most cases. In fairness this is true for most types of cheating though. I'd venture to guess the detection rate for steroids, or even hidden motors in bicycles is well below 1%. You can usually get away with cheating, I still don't think it makes it acceptable. And it would lead me to me next question, if you think something like keybinding (assuming it's against the rules) is okay because it's extremely unlikely to be detected, why have a rule about it in the first place? Which leads to the next question. If you decide to throw out the keybinding rule because it's highly unlikely to ever be detected and we agree we should just allow it, how do we decide what other rules we ought to throw out? | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:58 Eridanus wrote: Cheating is cheating regardless of perceptions. Cheating is cheating after you've established what constitutes cheating. To do that you would have had to use your perception of the world to classify a set of states or behaviours as cheating when they failed to adhere to norms. Seriously give me a break with your long winded and off-topic rhetoric. Keep it short and sweet. | ||
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Eridanus
United States75 Posts
No one ever pulled a hamstring from sprinting? I never argued why steroids should be banned, or why hotkey rebinds should be allowed. That is an entirely different argument. The fact is, both are banned. In my opinion, no RTS should be like SC2, because that gives a boring game that has no character and completely lost the soul/main point of having a real-time strategy game. SC2 might as well be turn based, for all I care. So maybe instead of enforcing your opinion on SC BW, we should enforce my opinion on SC2? Or just let both of them be their own thing? | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:58 shin ken wrote: Yes because it's quite unhealthy to be loaded with so many steroids. You know what else is unhealthy? Carpal tunnel syndrome inducing hotkeys from the last decade. If Blizzard doesn't implement custom hotkeys, I will use my programmable keyboard because custom hotkeys is a feature that should be in every RTS (and has been in every other RTS since Brood War [yes BW is superior to those, but not because of bad hotkeys]) This is an argument in favor of hotkeys. But like I've already said I'm not against the implementation of hotkeys (i.e. the changing of the rules to allow hotkeys). However, my understanding is that carpal tunnel is similarly present across other games such as CS, LoL, etc. that don't require stretching to P and M. In order to argue that the hotkeys should be changed for heath benefits, it would need to be shown or at least suggested that the specific use of keys across the keyboard increases the likelihood of wrist problems (this could be the case, but my current understanding is that it happens in similar rates across many games). | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On April 20 2017 23:46 L_Master wrote: I'll be honest, I'm totally fine with hotkey changing. That said, you're argument and agitation comes from failing to understand the gripe against hotkeys. You see it as veteran BW players not wanting hotkeys to change because "EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE THE SAME AND WE CAN'T CHANGE ANYTHING OR MAKE IT ANY EASIERE OH GOD NO!" But for the people that are anti hotkey, they see it as a serious change to the game. If I told you that SC2 medivacs were now going to have speed with no upgrade and double the HP, I imagine you wouldn't be thrilled about the change. Why? Because it's a drastic change to the fundamental gameplay. Many of the veterans that are opposed to hotkeys feel the same way about hotkey changes: that it would dramatically and fundamentally alter the game. You may disagree with them about the impact of hotkeys, but being dismissive of the argument like you are isn't really fair nor likely to lead to productive discussion. I'm not against hotkeys options really I just think the "wife and kid" call out for not wanting to stretch your hand on a keyboard to hit a key is hilarious. It's like damn dude your life must already be over if the threshold for learning new things is that low once you have a kid. | ||
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Eridanus
United States75 Posts
On April 21 2017 00:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Cheating is cheating after you've established what constitutes cheating. It is the first time you have said this. Why? You kept rambling about perceptions/detectablity. To do that you would have had to use your perception of the world to classify a set of states or behaviours as cheating when they failed to adhere to norms. Which you now do again. Why connect this with establishing what is allowed. Establishing what is allowed is completely independent from detecting that what is not allowed. Can you really not comprehend any of this? See. This is why I ask you explain why your oddball brain things a tree falling where there is no one around makes a sound or not. Becauase this debate is fucking bullshit until you do. Seriously give me a break with your long winded and off-topic rhetoric. Keep it short and sweet. Really!!!!!!!!! So you are saying that all these well-worded posts I typed out, you didn't even bother to read. And you just keep repeating your dribble. For the next 90 days, someone should wake you up in the middle of the night and force you to read up out loud what I posted in these last 10 pages, before you are allowed to go back to sleep. At least, that is what you deserve. Trickster. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On April 21 2017 00:01 mishimaBeef wrote: Cheating is cheating after you've established what constitutes cheating. To do that you would have had to use your perception of the world to classify a set of states or behaviours as cheating when they failed to adhere to norms. Seriously give me a break with your long winded and off-topic rhetoric. Keep it short and sweet. Isn't that what the rules of any activity exist precisely to do? Explicitly define how the game should be played and what actions are legal? | ||
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mishimaBeef
Canada2259 Posts
And every competitive scene can host Classic Hotkeys only. | ||
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