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Yeah we can get into a debate about the definitions of cheating, collusion, rules, and what not. Probably not that productive. This gets my point across:
On April 20 2017 22:46 mishimaBeef wrote:
Look, my point is this: I have to wonder whether people are using OS or Keyboard Hardware rebinding because they don't have a KeSPA agent behind them. I would rather know I am getting defeated by my opponents who are using the same tools as me, not getting crushed because I'm too noble to use an OS or Hardware rebinding when they don't care about that noble virtue.
I just want the ladder to be as transparent as possible, and seeing as how there is no way to detect client side OS or Hardware rebinding, just put it in the game.
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On April 20 2017 22:49 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 22:41 Drake wrote:On April 20 2017 20:52 TT1 wrote:On April 20 2017 20:51 MKStyles wrote:On April 20 2017 20:46 mdb wrote:
Quit bitching about hotkeys and play like a real man.
for real? im a new player and i play on the ptr with my own hotkeys and now i should play again with new ones all across the keybord? git gud and hit the gym, train your body so it can handle the stress of playing bw THATS the problem, i aint wanna have stress anymore i aint 20 anymore i would play again with decent hotkeys but its not rly worth the effort to play without Then go back to SC2 or other of your effortless games, simple like that, right? Seriously people, if little things like this make you to not want to play the game, dont play the game.
Maybe you enjoy playing BW with same 100 people but most would probably like to see the game expand its playerbase.
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Russian Federation104 Posts
On April 20 2017 22:49 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 22:41 Drake wrote:On April 20 2017 20:52 TT1 wrote:On April 20 2017 20:51 MKStyles wrote:On April 20 2017 20:46 mdb wrote:
Quit bitching about hotkeys and play like a real man.
for real? im a new player and i play on the ptr with my own hotkeys and now i should play again with new ones all across the keybord? git gud and hit the gym, train your body so it can handle the stress of playing bw THATS the problem, i aint wanna have stress anymore i aint 20 anymore i would play again with decent hotkeys but its not rly worth the effort to play without Then go back to SC2 or other of your effortless games, simple like that, right? Seriously people, if little things like this make you to not want to play the game, dont play the game.
what's the point of the remaster than?
Lol sc2 is hundred times more competitive now than bw, cuz bw has no scene other than korea, which is pretty weak today compared to say 2008. And fighting interface in 2017 what a great fun xD
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Final thought: it should be simple to have a tag on every game "Hotkeys: Classic" or "Hotkeys: Custom" and any tournament worth it's salt can host only Classic Hotkey matches.
But again, unless you're live, you can't tell if they rebind at OS or HW levels.
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So if I am a 100m sprinter, does that mean it is ok to use testosterone 'because probably everyone else is anyway'.?
I have problems with the way you people define cheating and the lack of moral compass is troubling. Everyone cheating doesn't make it 'not cheating'.
I also don't understand how the argument that you can change keybindings on 'OS level'(not accurate but let's use that as it was introduced that way) which technically doesn't change the way SC BW operates is considered not cheating, so changing keybindings on SC BW level itself should also not be considered cheating 'because they are indistinguishable'. They are. But that means both are cheating, right? Not that both are not cheating. In both cases you go out of your way to, outside of the context of the game, get an unfair advantage. And in one case, you directly violate the TOS.
I do understand that if Blizzard cannot enforce hacks that rebind the keys, that can be an argument for them to put it in the game. But if they don't, cheating is still cheating. And last time I checked, admitting to cheating on TL was a bannable offense.
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On April 20 2017 22:57 mishimaBeef wrote:
Final thought: it should be simple to have a tag on every game "Hotkeys: Classic" or "Hotkeys: Custom" and any tournament worth it's salt can host only Classic Hotkey matches.
But again, unless you're live, you can't tell if they rebind at OS or HW levels.
I think many would just love to have the server detect whether the player uses custom or classic hotkeys. Then it'd be so much easier to insta-ban all these newfag kids looking for effortless gameplay and could play with their other grumpy friends. Blizzard could also implement a feature detecting whether a player is going to change a hotkey, and when he does, it would uninstall Brood War, install SC2 and automatically queue him in matchmaking where he fucking belongs!!!!!! And ban him from TL Brood War section forever. IP ban.
Some people
EDIT: I'm sorry, I was annoyed
User was warned for this post
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100m sprinting is a live event. You can detect the testosterone.
You can't detect the OS and HW settings of someone halfway across the globe.
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Guys cheating is only a concept because we can detect it. Or am I wrong? If it was impossible to detect Testosterone boosting, what stops people from using it when their only goal is to WIN?
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On April 20 2017 22:56 0mg_t1red wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 22:49 fabiano wrote:On April 20 2017 22:41 Drake wrote:On April 20 2017 20:52 TT1 wrote:On April 20 2017 20:51 MKStyles wrote:On April 20 2017 20:46 mdb wrote:
Quit bitching about hotkeys and play like a real man.
for real? im a new player and i play on the ptr with my own hotkeys and now i should play again with new ones all across the keybord? git gud and hit the gym, train your body so it can handle the stress of playing bw THATS the problem, i aint wanna have stress anymore i aint 20 anymore i would play again with decent hotkeys but its not rly worth the effort to play without Then go back to SC2 or other of your effortless games, simple like that, right? Seriously people, if little things like this make you to not want to play the game, dont play the game. what's the point of the remaster than? Lol sc2 is hundred times more competitive now than bw, cuz bw has no scene other than korea, which is pretty weak today compared to say 2008. And fighting interface in 2017 what a great fun xD
How the fuck playing with original BW hotkeys is "fighting the interface"? You all are making it look like the hotkeys are absolutely unplayable, which is not true.
I'm pretty awful at BW, D-/D rank on iCCup, and I find original bindings perfectly fine. Can't believe you are unable to overcome something so tiny like this... This discussion is truly unbelievable.
Also, SC2 obviously is not effortless, but it was what I implied from the original quote. Either way, I really don't care about SC2, its scene or if it is harder or not than BW.
What's the point of Remastered? I dont know, I thought it was just to make BW graphics 4k and fit for nowadays monitors, nothing more than that.
In my opinion, BW should not be changed to fit SC2 players demands, nor anything else than hosting and graphics update.
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On April 20 2017 23:05 mishimaBeef wrote:
100m sprinting is a live event. You can detect the testosterone.
You can't detect the OS and HW settings of someone halfway across the globe.
That example was set up to address your other fallacy. The one you ignored. The example doesn't apply to the fallacy you do want to apply it to.
And the way you try to respond to my example is factually incorrect.
Anyway, if they can detect steroids usage in 100m sprint, why do we now know for a fact that 7 out of 8 people in the 100m 1988 OS final used steroids. Only one was caught. And every 100m sprint event after that is likely to be similar, and they also didn't get caught. (No idea how you can claim using testosterone, or some artificial steroid, can be detected. It almost never is.) So if my opponents all cheat, I can cheat as well. That was your argument, right? Because Blizzard cannot catch them, they are likely using key rebinds, so it is ok for you to do the same. That's what you said.
On April 20 2017 23:06 mishimaBeef wrote:
Guys cheating is only a concept because we can detect it. Or am I wrong? If it was impossible to detect Testosterone boosting, what stops people from using it when their only goal is to WIN?
Ok, then I guess in your mind a tree falling in a forest only makes a sound if there is somewhere to hear it. In that case, your philosophical grounds are so unorthodox, traditional debate would be impossible even if you were a honest debater, which you are not.
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Look, my point is this: I have to wonder whether people are using OS or Keyboard Hardware rebinding because they don't have a KeSPA agent behind them. I would rather know I am getting defeated by my opponents who are using the same tools as me, not getting crushed because I'm too noble to use an OS or Hardware rebinding when they don't care about that noble virtue.
I just want the ladder to be as transparent as possible, and seeing as how there is no way to detect client side OS or Hardware rebinding, just put it in the game.
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On April 20 2017 22:38 Eridanus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 22:29 blueslobster wrote:On April 20 2017 22:02 Eridanus wrote:
You cannot use how inconvenient it is for you to play with classic hotkeys as an argument as to why it is not cheating to hack the SC BW hotkeys. You can just use a fully programmable keyboard like the GH60. No hacking necessary. Under the assumption that Blizzard wants to maximize the number of people playing SC:R, it makes sense for them to offer exactly the same degree of hotkey customization that SC2 has. Otherwise it is hard for people to transition from one game to the other. How you achieve it is just semantics. In principle, you can also maphack by setting up a camera in your opponent's room, avoiding the need of directly hacking the game. You are still cheating.
One of these is absurd, the other is not.
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Haha, okay smart guy explain to me how cheating can be a concept if there is no way to detect an alternative state or process in the subject.
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On April 20 2017 23:13 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 22:38 Eridanus wrote:On April 20 2017 22:29 blueslobster wrote:On April 20 2017 22:02 Eridanus wrote:
You cannot use how inconvenient it is for you to play with classic hotkeys as an argument as to why it is not cheating to hack the SC BW hotkeys. You can just use a fully programmable keyboard like the GH60. No hacking necessary. Under the assumption that Blizzard wants to maximize the number of people playing SC:R, it makes sense for them to offer exactly the same degree of hotkey customization that SC2 has. Otherwise it is hard for people to transition from one game to the other. How you achieve it is just semantics. In principle, you can also maphack by setting up a camera in your opponent's room, avoiding the need of directly hacking the game. You are still cheating. One of these is absurd, the other is not.
It is a moral argument. That it is absurd/practically impossible is irrelevant. We are discussing a moral principle. I want to try to know if it even exists in those people who defend hotkey hacking. And apparently they only think cheating is cheating if they know for sure their opponent isn't.
And I thought it would be clear to everyone that even if you know for 100% sure that the tournament you are about to enter has 31 opponents who all maphack, always. That you would still be cheating if you would be the 32th person maphacking.
Now I understand a case can be made that one type of cheating is worse than another type of cheating. For example, it would be even more immoral to maphack if you knew for a fact that none of your opponents were maphacking. But both of them are still considered cheating. And the truth is, you will never know for sure if your opponent is not rebinding your keys. And I also saw no one here claim they they would use classic hotkeys vs old SC BW players who don't rebind. They bring up the argument of having to relearn the hotkeys, then getting beaten by other SC2 players using rebinds.
On April 20 2017 23:14 mishimaBeef wrote:
Haha, okay smart guy explain to me how cheating can be a concept if there is no way to detect an alternative state or process in the subject.
I see no point in trying until you explain to me how it can be that a tree falling in a forest does make a sound, even when there is no one around to hear it.
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On April 20 2017 23:19 Eridanus wrote:
I see no point in trying until you explain to me how it can be that a tree falling in a forest can make a sound when there is no one around to hear it.
That's a metaphysical issue, mine is an epistemological one.
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How do you check peoples profiles in the new battle.net channel...the best i can do is see my own using /stats 
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On April 20 2017 23:21 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 23:19 Eridanus wrote:
I see no point in trying until you explain to me how it can be that a tree falling in a forest can make a sound when there is no one around to hear it. That's a metaphysical issue, mine is an epistemological one.
No. They are identical. We would also disagree on the tree example. You would say there is no sound. At least, I am convinced of that. I see no point in progressing until you can explain to me how you describe why you think a tree will always make a sound, regardless of human perception. Only then I can explain to you how for you cheating is always there, regardless of it being detectable or not.
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On April 20 2017 23:22 Shock710 wrote:How do you check peoples profiles in the new battle.net channel...the best i can do is see my own using /stats
In patch notes it said that profiles are temporarily not available.
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On April 20 2017 23:24 Eridanus wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2017 23:21 mishimaBeef wrote:On April 20 2017 23:19 Eridanus wrote:
I see no point in trying until you explain to me how it can be that a tree falling in a forest can make a sound when there is no one around to hear it. That's a metaphysical issue, mine is an epistemological one. No. They are identical. We would also disagree on the tree example. You would say there is no sound. At least, I am convinced of that. I see no point in progressing until you can explain to me how you describe why you think a tree will always make a sound, regardless of human perception.
The correct analogy would be what is the definition of sound no? I am asking how we define cheating if we cannot perceive alternative states or processes in the subject.
Similarly, we define sound because we perceive something different.
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I like BW but I hate its toxic community that complains about everything.
Actually there is a term that describes accurately the trascendent discussions that plague the BW forums nowadays: it is called "byzantine discussion".
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EPT
