On April 27 2017 22:03 Broodwar4lyf wrote: I hope to see people actually using ensnare more, also "offensive or passive" plague-ing if that makes any sense. The computer A.I. does it a lot and it's the most annoying thing to deal with since it's practically unstoppable
On April 25 2017 11:55 duke91 wrote: Probably saw the most frustrating ZvT in history. Jaedong was so ahead vs mong, forcing Mong to lift his CC around 8 minutes in. But he couldn't break Mong no matter what after 30 minutes, and died to the only push Mong did in the whole game which was a simply siege towards the middle expos on CB......
David Kim pls
that game looked really fun, i cant get enough of those games
really? why? for me, just watching ZvT in the recent months have been so exhausting for me except in the very rare cases where the zerg wins from slightly/moderately behind
edit: I didn't watch the game btw.
The struggle of Zerg trying so hard to survive just to have a chance to die later. Simple mistakes at any time resulting in quick demolishing loses or long drawn out exhausting "suffocation". While getting ahead just delays the inevitable. "It is going to happen, and no matter what you wish. No matter where you go, No matter how you squirrel. There is nothing you can do... to stop it!" Exhaustion, Frustration, Despair. i just love to see Zerg suffer.
On April 25 2017 11:55 duke91 wrote: Probably saw the most frustrating ZvT in history. Jaedong was so ahead vs mong, forcing Mong to lift his CC around 8 minutes in. But he couldn't break Mong no matter what after 30 minutes, and died to the only push Mong did in the whole game which was a simply siege towards the middle expos on CB......
David Kim pls
I just watched the game and after careful analysis I beg to differ. I'm aware I'm being an armchair critic by doing this, these things aren't always obvious while playing, but I don't think I'm wrong with what I'm about to say. When JD had Mong contained and the first sieged tank appeared, several of his front lurkers were damaged, and then the second tank started firing. He lost 3 lurkers at the retreat, which I think was mostly unneccessary. I think he should've retreated sooner when he saw the second tank and only lost 1 lurker or even nothing. I know JD likes to put maximum pressure, but that was a strange risk to take and a hard loss in that stage of the game. But this didn't cost him his entire advantage yet. A while later he lost a defiler in the center which could've been prevented with better awareness of his dark swarm timing. And after the next fight (which went ok for him) he lost another two lurkers in the center for no good reason. They were just out in the open where Mong had to have a big army. This was just careless. He ended up at a disadvantage albeit having secured a third base and hive tech. As a result he got pressured at his natural, which could've ended badly had Mong not mismanaged his army. JD's losses add up to 5 lurkers and 1 defiler, which amounts to roughly 700/800 or 12 supply or 6 larvae. JD hovered around 50-60 supply the whole time, so this is a 20% supply loss which could've easily been an under 10% loss. What's worse, the losses made up more than half of JD's total army after the fact, so it translates to a much bigger deficit than just 20%. I'd say more like 30-40% when considering reinforcements. In effect, JD gave away options to defend and put pressure later. After all that, for the rest of the game JD played catch-up, and it was Mong's game to lose. Mong made several mistakes and JD actually climbed back into the game, fighting like a beast. But in the end it didn't even matter.
tl;dr in the early game JD wasn't conservative enough when tanks came out. He had an advantage after he broke Mong's natural, and knowing JD's skill he should've translated that into a relatively secure victory, but he was careless.
I understand this hallmarks his aggressive playing style, but style is not an excuse at his skill level. I've seen him rely in several games on a perfect outcome of imperfectly handled unit positioning in the early/mid game, when armies are small and every detail matters. It's not his control, he's great at that. But his positioning is sometimes lacking.
On April 25 2017 11:55 duke91 wrote: Probably saw the most frustrating ZvT in history. Jaedong was so ahead vs mong, forcing Mong to lift his CC around 8 minutes in. But he couldn't break Mong no matter what after 30 minutes, and died to the only push Mong did in the whole game which was a simply siege towards the middle expos on CB......
David Kim pls
I just watched the game and after careful analysis I beg to differ. I'm aware I'm being an armchair critic by doing this, these things aren't always obvious while playing, but I don't think I'm wrong with what I'm about to say. When JD had Mong contained and the first sieged tank appeared, several of his front lurkers were damaged, and then the second tank started firing. He lost 3 lurkers at the retreat, which I think was mostly unneccessary. I think he should've retreated sooner when he saw the second tank and only lost 1 lurker or even nothing. I know JD likes to put maximum pressure, but that was a strange risk to take and a hard loss in that stage of the game. But this didn't cost him his entire advantage yet. A while later he lost a defiler in the center which could've been prevented with better awareness of his dark swarm timing. And after the next fight (which went ok for him) he lost another two lurkers in the center for no good reason. They were just out in the open where Mong had to have a big army. This was just careless. He ended up at a disadvantage albeit having secured a third base and hive tech. As a result he got pressured at his natural, which could've ended badly had Mong not mismanaged his army. JD's losses add up to 5 lurkers and 1 defiler, which amounts to roughly 700/800 or 12 supply or 6 larvae. JD hovered around 50-60 supply the whole time, so this is a 20% supply loss which could've easily been an under 10% loss. What's worse, the losses made up more than half of JD's total army after the fact, so it translates to a much bigger deficit than just 20%. I'd say more like 30-40% when considering reinforcements. In effect, JD gave away options to defend and put pressure later. After all that, for the rest of the game JD played catch-up, and it was Mong's game to lose. Mong made several mistakes and JD actually climbed back into the game, fighting like a beast. But in the end it didn't even matter.
tl;dr in the early game JD wasn't conservative enough when tanks came out. He had an advantage after he broke Mong's natural, and knowing JD's skill he should've translated that into a relatively secure victory, but he was careless.
I understand this hallmarks his aggressive playing style, but style is not an excuse at his skill level. I've seen him rely in several games on a perfect outcome of imperfectly handled unit positioning in the early/mid game, when armies are small and every detail matters. It's not his control, he's great at that. But his positioning is sometimes lacking.
Well no offense, but I do not think that you know the matchup very well. JD was ahead 2 minutes, which should be enough to snowball in his favor where some 'units lost carelessly' midgame doesn't give away his advantage that much. JD didn't climb back, because he was in a better position than 90% of ZvT's at this stage.
On April 28 2017 09:31 duke91 wrote: Well no offense, but I do not think that you know the matchup very well. JD was ahead 2 minutes, which should be enough to snowball in his favor where some 'units lost carelessly' midgame doesn't give away his advantage that much. JD didn't climb back, because he was in a better position than 90% of ZvT's at this stage.
No offense taken, but I do in fact understand the matchup relatively well, I was a B to B+ terran on ICC around ten years ago, which isn't great but it requires good understanding. But what's more important than my opinion is that most of the factors I pointed out are just factual, like the total amount of more or less pointless losses incurred. These losses are simple numbers that can't be denied. How much they took away from JD's advantage is up to debate, but to outright deny them having a significant impact can't be right. If those weren't major losses then I'd argue we might be living in different universes.
On April 28 2017 09:31 duke91 wrote: Well no offense, but I do not think that you know the matchup very well. JD was ahead 2 minutes, which should be enough to snowball in his favor where some 'units lost carelessly' midgame doesn't give away his advantage that much. JD didn't climb back, because he was in a better position than 90% of ZvT's at this stage.
No offense taken, but I do in fact understand the matchup relatively well, I was a B to B+ terran on ICC around ten years ago, which isn't great but it requires good understanding. But what's more important than my opinion is that most of the factors I pointed out are just factual, like the total amount of more or less pointless losses incurred. These losses are simple numbers that can't be denied. How much they took away from JD's advantage is up to debate, but to outright deny them having a significant impact can't be right. If those weren't major losses then I'd argue we might be living in different universes.
The point I wanted to make was that although it seem much of loss, it isn't that big of a deal that totally changed the outcome of the game. It is not like losing the third or similar. Also losing units carelessly as a zerg does not matter too much once defilers are out since one can hold any attacks with a few defilers and 2-3 lurkers (unless terran has enough mech to roflstomp). The point is that despite being ahead for a zerg, he was unable to prevent the right hand expansions from being taken, which JD tried to prevent for 15 minutes. Even if he played absolute perfectly, he may still lose if Terran doesn't do a major fuck up. This has been the state of ZvT for months now. It is like punching a concrete wall.
Also you can't prevent losses anymore as zerg no matter what. You have to do whatever it takes to prevent terran from expanding or it's GG. Losing a bunch of ultras may seem absolutely careless to a few mines 10 years ago, why don't you clear them with hydras/lings? But those sacrifices are needed to prevent the terran from securing the bases, which is nowadays a 99% percent loss for zerg since they can't compete with the cost-effectiveness of terran mech. Most lategame wins of zerg nowadays are them being able to snowball to prevent the terran deathball, which requires constant engages everywhere, which can't be always as cost efficient as possible.
Cut JD some slack, his 35% winrate against terran in april and the struggle of all zergs in this MU isn't because they lose some units. Also I get Bakuryu why he likes the struggle. BW players are usually very competitive and see this MU as a challenge. It doesn't mean though that zergs are not allowed to feel the frustration, especially given that this has been the state of ZvT for months now and there is no reliable meta in sight which may break this.
The way zergs cope nowadays is to have greedier builds. I don't think this is a solution since this is extremely volatile and relies on volatile, perfect muta micro.
I'm not questioning JD's status as a top progamer. I'm trying to give my own understanding as to why he lost the game. I don't believe he lost because of an imbalance of the matchup, as was implied by the person I responded to. I think it was entirely JD's own fault because I'm pretty sure he had a winning advantage that he threw away. The things I pointed out are the things that I think he did wrong that made him lose.
EPT
