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ortseam
996 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Watching the first 15 minutes, Jd is not ahead here. He made a ton of lings for the attack on the natural and didn't kill a single scv. Which means a very late 3rd (and 4th after that), with terran not having taken much damage really | ||
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
vsZ : 30G 17W13L(56%) vsT : 79G 33W46L(41%) vsP : 70G 36W34패L(51%) Total : 179G 86W93L(48%) Z Hyun 3:2 GGaemo 2:0 Soulkey 2:1 Larva 2:1 Miso 1:0 Hero 1:1 Effort 6:8 T Skyhigh 2:0 Lomo 2:0 Reality 1:0 Bravo 1:0 Sharp 0:1 sSak 0:1 Sea 0:1 Rush 2:4 Light 4:6 Last 5: 9 Mind 9:11 Mong 7:13 P Free 12:10 Guemchi 5:1 Stork 1:0 Backho 1:0 Bisu 0:1 Best 5: 9 Shuttle 12:13 | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8819 Posts
he had a session before where he talked about his own understanding of zerg and how he considers them to be a race that must play aggressively. to quote him "if zerg sits back and just defends they are doomed to lose". its why he developed his aggressive playstyle but that came through endless grinding and fine tuning of when and how to fight and register small victories here and there. apparently his winrate in the practice house while he was developing this style was dogshit. hes probably going through the same stages now, although he admits his body doesnt react to his mind like the old days | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On May 01 2017 11:03 evilfatsh1t wrote: shouldnt worry too much about jd's practice performances. he had a session before where he talked about his own understanding of zerg and how he considers them to be a race that must play aggressively. to quote him "if zerg sits back and just defends they are doomed to lose". its why he developed his aggressive playstyle but that came through endless grinding and fine tuning of when and how to fight and register small victories here and there. apparently his winrate in the practice house while he was developing this style was dogshit. hes probably going through the same stages now, although he admits his body doesnt react to his mind like the old days Wow! I had no idea. That's exactly how I've learned ever since I was a kid... Die 10x more than anyone... end up better. Jaedong... *sniff* <3 | ||
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EAGER-beaver
Canada2799 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Ubersturmfuhrer
Finland206 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + What do people think about the rapid switch to mass muta in late game? Is this generally not advised? This kind of quick change in army composition is something the zerg excel at and can take terran off guard if they are massing vultures and tanks. There is a need to consider that Flash didn't build any turrets in his main because of early Valkyrie though. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 01 2017 07:56 ortseam wrote: I think this is it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGQ5RACh0Ac + Show Spoiler + Watching the first 15 minutes, Jd is not ahead here. He made a ton of lings for the attack on the natural and didn't kill a single scv. Which means a very late 3rd (and 4th after that), with terran not having taken much damage really yep I meant that game, although the atrocity I just saw on camelot vs Skyhigh (zobs) just now rivals this game. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 02 2017 02:07 Ubersturmfuhrer wrote: SoulKey had an interesting solution to terran (Flash) switching mech in this match: + Show Spoiler + What do people think about the rapid switch to mass muta in late game? Is this generally not advised? This kind of quick change in army composition is something the zerg excel at and can take terran off guard if they are massing vultures and tanks. There is a need to consider that Flash didn't build any turrets in his main because of early Valkyrie though. It is not a solution if it requires to take terran off-guard, especially since terran can still easily counter this with goliaths/vessels/valkyres. Hell even if terran still has some leftover marine/medic, it is already shut down, giving enough time for turret spam. Meanwhile zerg gave away 3k gas for useless mutas. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6815 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
Perfectly deflects 2 marine group pushes without losing much. Perfectly stalls until lurkers, perfectly saturated 3rd already at 8 minutes. Already has defiler building at 9 minute. Skyhigh 1a2a3a pushes main, the 2 lurkers + sunkens + 3 lurkers after + 11 mutas can't defend, gg out. I bet Skyhigh had overmins as well | ||
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Ubersturmfuhrer
Finland206 Posts
On May 02 2017 02:25 duke91 wrote: It is not a solution if it requires to take terran off-guard, especially since terran can still easily counter this with goliaths/vessels/valkyres. Hell even if terran still has some leftover marine/medic, it is already shut down, giving enough time for turret spam. Meanwhile zerg gave away 3k gas for useless mutas. If it is so easy to counter, then why was Flash, the best terran in the world who is also known for his skill at reacting and countering the opponent's builds and strategies, not able to? He was spamming goliaths which were then eaten by ling/ultra. It seemed like pretty efficient combination to at least make sure the terran won't have a ton of siege tanks eating all your ground army. The zerg in the late game can easily make like 10-15 mutas in one go so it's kind of hard to scout for terran before they are already wrecking your tank/vult army in the field. Add in some scourge against valks and I wouldn't say it's particularly easy to counter without divesting your resources heavily on anti-air which also eats resources from ground troops. It would be interesting to see other games where this late-game mass muta was used against terran mech, succesfully or not. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
0-0 upgrade mutas take ages to kill a tank line. If terran made 0 goliaths up to this point, it will do some damage but it won't win you the game. If terran has 1-2 goliaths then 15 mutas won't do much and you waste money for gas heavy cannon fodder. ZvT is all about preventing 200/200 army and terran securing expansions. Mass Mutas won't ever achieve that alone, especially since they are easily countered extremely cost efficiently. Vessels you probably already have and the more mutas you have the more cost efficient vessels are against it. You need like 10 upgraded goliaths + a few turrets + vessels to completely shut down 50 mutas. That is 5k gas down the drain countered by units which may already have been there in any case in order to prevent drops on tanks. The most problematic thing is that you would have saved this resource to begin with. Say you want to muta switch to 20 muta. That is 2k mins and gas which would have been better used to prevent terran from snowballing bases and getting up the impenetrable defense. You have to attack non stop and prevent terran from getting defense up. Mutas can only do that if terran somehow forgot to put turrets on their 3rd and 4th base. If they have leftover 5 rax rines they are getting shut down. If they don't have leftover bio, then it is likely they already have some turrets against drops which is basically the only thing they can lose to. Notice how this superior superman of a player Flash doesn't make one Vessel and has trouble keeping up with the mutas, never rebuilds valkyres against basically muta only (and lost the valkyres to begin with). I know it is hard to believe, but Flash misplayed that. Another thing which bothers me that people act like Flash cannot ever do mistakes. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 02 2017 02:25 duke91 wrote: It is not a solution if it requires to take terran off-guard, especially since terran can still easily counter this with goliaths/vessels/valkyres. Hell even if terran still has some leftover marine/medic, it is already shut down, giving enough time for turret spam. Meanwhile zerg gave away 3k gas for useless mutas. One thing I have wondered is, why not do a guardian switch? Like instead of making 20 queens, why not make 12-15 guardians with scourge or some sort of anti air so that wraiths don't kill them all? I am talking about a switch, not a guardian rush build or anything like that, just a switch to guardians later in the game instead of queens. In theory I feel like it could be really good versus mech late game when the Terran is making mainly tanks/vultures and not many goliaths. But since pro's don't do it there must be something bad about it that I just don't know. | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On May 02 2017 05:51 blade55555 wrote: One thing I have wondered is, why not do a guardian switch? Like instead of making 20 queens, why not make 12-15 guardians with scourge or some sort of anti air so that wraiths don't kill them all? I am talking about a switch, not a guardian rush build or anything like that, just a switch to guardians later in the game instead of queens. In theory I feel like it could be really good versus mech late game when the Terran is making mainly tanks/vultures and not many goliaths. But since pro's don't do it there must be something bad about it that I just don't know. The reason for a lot of stuff not working for Zergs is that to just stay alive zergs have to use all their gas for defilers squrge in the first way. Secondly terran lategame have nearly perfect vision of zergs due to 4 scans. I think people speculating a lot of option simply forget/do not know how much effort and gas it takes just to stay alive until you maybe reach that 4th gas. It is probably the same reason why zergs not put in hydras to their late game army to counter mines (and the fact that tanks wreck hydras). | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On May 02 2017 05:51 blade55555 wrote: One thing I have wondered is, why not do a guardian switch? Like instead of making 20 queens, why not make 12-15 guardians with scourge or some sort of anti air so that wraiths don't kill them all? I am talking about a switch, not a guardian rush build or anything like that, just a switch to guardians later in the game instead of queens. In theory I feel like it could be really good versus mech late game when the Terran is making mainly tanks/vultures and not many goliaths. But since pro's don't do it there must be something bad about it that I just don't know. If Terran has goliaths/marines, then any Zerg antiair is incredibly cost-inefficient. Devourers don't kill anything fast enough and are just mainly to tank. I think guardians can work well but it is hard to get to that 'deathball' such that they can be a threat. On semi-open maps guardians can be easily caught and decimated by goliaths and usually any ground can't kill those fast enough. Hydra + guardians work well against goliaths, provided that you have some zergling support to buffer against tanks and keep your hydras alive. Kind of like what Sigamari did vs Goodfriend. But the point is that you give up momentum if you tech to guardians and make them. They are too slow and hence to risky. As said, ZvT is all about gaining the momentum to break the terran or else you can't do anything. Queens work similar in concept, but may take more time to prepare and are much harder to use. I think guardian switches work well if you are ahead as zerg. Nowadays Terrans would have 5 expos around the time zerg has 4. Sea still has 3 in this game. Also nowadays the maps are plastered by mines which shut down any attack or defiler push. Sea has barely any mines planted this game. Guardians arrive at around minute 18 as JD who was largely left alone doing whatever JD wanted. Guardians here were more like a 'I won already, I just want an easy way to close the game'. I don't think tanks are the problem of todays late game. It is the ridiculous efficiency and map control cheap mineral only vultures + mines provide which lets terran go 5 expos without any repercussion. Guardians won't solve this. Zerg needs an apm-unintensive, cheap, no tech heavy (as they take time, which you don't want to give terran) way to deal with vultures and mines while not straight up getting wreaked by bio. I think going lurker + ling + hydra style could be a solution instead of the ultra + ling + defiler style, since it protects your defilers from being sniped by anything terran has by some degree and for some degree takes back map control. Guardians are used only to close the game. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
On May 01 2017 07:56 ortseam wrote: I think this is it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGQ5RACh0Ac + Show Spoiler + Watching the first 15 minutes, Jd is not ahead here. He made a ton of lings for the attack on the natural and didn't kill a single scv. Which means a very late 3rd (and 4th after that), with terran not having taken much damage really thanks a lot for finding it, ortseam. For me, this game goes to show how seemingly weak 3 hatch lurker/ling aggression is on this particular map and on these particular spawning positions. If Mong invested in a 2nd bunker, the game would have been over quickly in favour of T. Sure, JD could have killed more scvs on that natural with those 3 lurkers but he made sure Mong doesn't mine from this base for 2 and a half minutes there which is still something. Yet again, Mong almost immediately after "breaking out" went on a reckless attack and at the 12:35 (of the game) mark went for a very questionable run by with his mnm army that cost him the entire push army (all tanks, marines, medics) from which 2 marines and 2 medics survived while basically killing nothing (3 drones and slowing for a bit JD's mineral line). Usually when zerg does such type of move vs a T (losing almost all the army without doing significant damage) it's over for the z. | ||
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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K.H.J
Korea (South)769 Posts
Well... | ||
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Trozz
Canada3456 Posts
Have things ever been this bad? Rough situation. | ||
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