EPT
Starcraft Brood war HD remaster
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This is NOT a BW vs SC2 topic thread. Be cautious of what you post. Starting Page 26, warnings/bans will be handed out if this note is ignored. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
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kogeT
Poland2031 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 05 2016 16:08 kogeT wrote: Wow this may be huge.. any resolution changes can change the game completely. Yeah I fear that as well... I don't really know korean that much but it says that you can also change your hotkey settings or something. | ||
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany673 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On August 05 2016 16:20 [N3O]r3d33m3r wrote: Wait is this official or what?? Not fan-made? Its related to this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/512058-starcraft-patch-1170-unannounced-discovered Also Oblig: ![[image loading]](https://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/70470897.jpg) User should have been warned for this post, but I appreciated this meme so its fine. | ||
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e4e5nf3
Canada599 Posts
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KameZerg
Sweden1757 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 'star Kraft ' HD remastered version has improved graphics resolution, while maintaining the original castle games, user interface ( UI reportedly with). Means that remaster is developing again based on the resources devoted to games released before. 'StarCraft' HD more specific information about the remastered version is expected to be revealed in November that opens BlizzCon come. + Show Spoiler + More info at Blizzcon. They are just improving Graphics! | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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HaN-
France1919 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 05 2016 17:00 classicyellow83 wrote: Well, the article says it's keeping the same game play. can you please translate the full article? | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1496 Posts
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mca64Launcher_
Poland629 Posts
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On August 05 2016 16:54 HaN- wrote: HD ??? I have a very bad feeling about this... Yeah, it's been a long time since one was last able to trust Blizzard. | ||
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Draconicfire
Canada2562 Posts
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
On August 05 2016 16:06 Shinokuki wrote: the article states that blizz will tell us everything about starcraft broodwar HD during september The translation I'm seeing (the shit from Google Translate) says that the update will be released in September, but more information will be released during Blizzcon in November, which is 2 months afterwards..... | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On August 05 2016 18:13 xboi209 wrote: The translation I'm seeing (the shit from Google Translate) says that the update will be released in September, but more information will be released during Blizzcon in November, which is 2 months afterwards..... I believe the article says the update will be unveiled in september, not released. Probably just some preliminary information+pictures. | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
If you are unlucky, you get new pathing, new selection and a new Bnet which makes it much harder for 3rd party servers. | ||
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coolprogrammingstuff
906 Posts
kek as fukk right now | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 05 2016 17:30 mca64Launcher_ wrote: mca64launcher HD is comming soon aaaawwwwwww yeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaahh!!! | ||
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
This is the most important news | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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todespolka
221 Posts
Bw nostalgias always said that the reason why bw isnt popular outside of korea is the incompatibility and graphics alone. Sure the prize will play a huge role and lan. If it can be pirated or not. But its an experiment i would like to see the outcome, no matter what happens. If i read all these comments, i already see people trying to find excuses such as that blizzard will fuck it up by changing something more than graphics. But what does it matter as long as the gameplay stays the same. Why would they make a bw hd if they wanted to change gameplay? Thats already sc2. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
I know valks won't bug out anymore. On August 05 2016 18:51 ThaReckoning wrote: Given their track record, I can't even be cautiously optimistic about this. The last like, six blizzard games have left a really bad taste in my mouth. If they intended on doing this, why didn't that just do it with sc2? overwatch is fun tho, legit. | ||
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todespolka
221 Posts
On August 05 2016 18:51 ThaReckoning wrote: Given their track record, I can't even be cautiously optimistic about this. The last like, six blizzard games have left a really bad taste in my mouth. If they intended on doing this, why didn't that just do it with sc2? You mean all their popular and highly reviewed games such as overwatch? hearthstone? Their updates and patches to diablo3? wow still being the biggest mmo after so long? Even sc2 lotv had high reviews? But maybe you think all these people are payed by blizzard and only your opinion matters. Dont try to accuse me as a blizzard fanboy. I play only sc2. But their games have always high quality graphics and sound, their animations and details are the best. Their games are relatively to other games bug free and play very smoothly on lowest requirements. Their games belong to the best of their genre. If their games had low reviews, i could understand complains, but they havent. People complain, because blizzard is a successful company, which has a great philosophie. These people cant accept that. In their mind every big company has to be bad, wrong and corrupt. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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Grettin
42381 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
I hope they add multiple AI difficulties to BW HD so I can practice builds in peace without the AI trying to attack me with the same predictable arbitrary timing of m&m or zealots. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
I fully expect this to be an Age of Empires 2 HD type of deal. Where they don't even touch the UI, it stays small on an HD screen, they don't touch graphics, and for sure they don't touch mechanics. We already can run BW on fit-screen 4:3 and with some fan-made mod even HD (for replays mostly). But we currently encounter many issues with Win 7+. If those are fixed, that's the biggest news and benefit of this ordeal. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On August 05 2016 18:54 todespolka wrote: You mean all their popular and highly reviewed games such as overwatch? hearthstone? Their updates and patches to diablo3? wow still being the biggest mmo after so long? Even sc2 lotv had high reviews? But maybe you think all these people are payed by blizzard and only your opinion matters. Dont try to accuse me as a blizzard fanboy. I play only sc2. But their games have always high quality graphics and sound, their animations and details are the best. Their games are relatively to other games bug free and play very smoothly on lowest requirements. Their games belong to the best of their genre. If their games had low reviews, i could understand complains, but they havent. People complain, because blizzard is a successful company, which has a great philosophie. These people cant accept that. In their mind every big company has to be bad, wrong and corrupt. Eh, this is stretching it. Overwatch and hearthstone are mildly popular, but still getting stomped out in their respective genres like every other blizzard game. D3 still isn't what it was or what it even should have been, and LotV effectively killed competitive SC2. Runescape, the creative channel, and the eating channel routinely get more views than SC2 does on twitch. Also, their graphics are pretty widely known to be cartoony, that's their style. I didn't mention their philosophy (which is to make as much money in the short term as possible, quality be damned). Their UI's are always fairly buggy, but I will give you that they gameplay is relatively bug free. That's just about the only thing you got right. | ||
digmouse
China6327 Posts
On August 05 2016 19:24 ThaReckoning wrote: Eh, this is stretching it. Overwatch and hearthstone are mildly popular, but still getting stomped out in their respective genres like every other blizzard game. D3 still isn't what it was or what it even should have been, and LotV effectively killed competitive SC2. Runescape, the creative channel, and the eating channel routinely get more views than SC2 does on twitch. Also, their graphics are pretty widely known to be cartoony, that's their style. I didn't mention their philosophy (which is to make as much money in the short term as possible, quality be damned). Their UI's are always fairly buggy, but I will give you that they gameplay is relatively bug free. That's just about the only thing you got right. Both Overwatch and Hearthstone are making absolutely gangbusters and are considered Kings in their genre. I'm curious which competitive FPS is miles ahead of Overwatch in popularity, and which card game is more popular than Hearthstone at all. | ||
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Dante08
Singapore4121 Posts
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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KameZerg
Sweden1757 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 05 2016 18:54 todespolka wrote: You mean all their popular and highly reviewed games such as overwatch? hearthstone? Their updates and patches to diablo3? wow still being the biggest mmo after so long? Even sc2 lotv had high reviews? But maybe you think all these people are payed by blizzard and only your opinion matters. Dont try to accuse me as a blizzard fanboy. I play only sc2. But their games have always high quality graphics and sound, their animations and details are the best. Their games are relatively to other games bug free and play very smoothly on lowest requirements. Their games belong to the best of their genre. If their games had low reviews, i could understand complains, but they havent. People complain, because blizzard is a successful company, which has a great philosophie. These people cant accept that. In their mind every big company has to be bad, wrong and corrupt. Funny how you mention everything except the only thing that actually matters (gameplay). Btw hearthstone is fun, I play it, but it is so badly designed. So what ThaReckoning has said with "The last like, six blizzard games have left a really bad taste in my mouth" is a legit concern. Their games have dropped significantly in the gameplay department. While still fun, they could MUCH better, which is why BW is the best game there is. And do you honestly think the current wow is as good as the old wow? | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
On August 05 2016 19:26 digmouse wrote: Both Overwatch and Hearthstone are making absolutely gangbusters and are considered Kings in their genre. I'm curious which competitive FPS is miles ahead of Overwatch in popularity, and which card game is more popular than Hearthstone at all. CS:GO and MTG. | ||
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digmouse
China6327 Posts
You can't say CSGO and MTG "stomped out" Overwatch and HS. And even without comparison, stating them as "mildly popular" is a huge hyperbole. Both are among the most popular games in the entire world right now. And the rest of Blizzard games are still ranked one the most popular within their genre, respectively, whether the competitive scene thinks it good or not. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1757 Posts
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Wintex
Norway16836 Posts
GO and overwatch are quite different, and MTG and hearthstone doesn't compare either. hearthstone is accessible for what it is worth, while MTG ain't. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 05 2016 20:22 Cele wrote: Blizzard is gonna fuck things up big time. Mark my words. is ok yo, is ok. just live life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery | ||
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 05 2016 20:26 BLinD-RawR wrote: is ok yo, is ok. just live life of lively to live to life of full life thx to shield battery if and when it's finished. Yeah. And if still has enough users after BW HD is out and is , oh suprise, only playable on official Blizzard servers. BNET 2.0 integration without Lan support is a thing, that could happen. €: sorry, "BW history" has just made me a pessimist regarding any "improvement" made by Blizzard entertainment from ~2006 onward. The last good implementation was penguin plugin imo (chat in replays) | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
I think it's very safe to say that Blizzard has the top 1 game in 5 out of 6 genres they currently have supported game in. Only Heroes is not the top game of its genre. (and there we could argue this whole genre is solidly rooted in Blizzard RTS games and their mods) It's another topic that the genres themselves are not currently super popular* (RTS, MMO, Diablo-likes). But meanwhile Blizzard made huge progress in new areas that they didn't have any experience in and made top 1 games that were originally almost laughed at as an idea. (Hearthstone, Overwatch) EDIT: *or rather, are beyond their peak of popularity. They are still hugely popular compared to many other genres and games. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 05 2016 20:36 Cele wrote: if and when it's finished. Yeah. And if still has enough users after BW HD is out and is , oh suprise, only playable on official Blizzard servers. BNET 2.0 integration without Lan support is a thing, that could happen. €: sorry, "BW history" has just made me a pessimist regarding any "improvement" made by Blizzard entertainment from ~2006 onward. The last good implementation was penguin plugin imo (chat in replays) I understand how you feel and I'm cautiously optimistic. | ||
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sibs
635 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 05 2016 20:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: I understand how you feel and I'm cautiously optimistic. im not having just a feeling, I have followed the way blizzard tries to incorporate and listen to the needs of the BW scene for years. And simple answer: they just don't. But i hope you're right about it and we can agree at the end of the day that blizzard, once, did a better job involving the BW scene. | ||
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States346 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:09 f10eqq wrote: I'm slightly worried about the incompatibilities w/ replays, plugins, etc but i guess we can keep the old sc for that. Assuming this gets popular, will Iccup/Shieldbattery switch? as i said above, i imagine Blizzard will try to shut any pirate servers out. (ICCup, FISH, SB) And if they do it proper, we won't have the chance to switch. If not, there is interest on our side to switch, but we have to evaluate a) the technical difficulties to do so b) if it's a good idea in the first place because b1) Compatibility between old BW and BW HD could be an issue b2) how time consuming it is for our coders. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
Starcraft 1 HD | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:15 BisuDagger wrote: I found a link to the Starcraft HD Download and omg they changed so much! Starcraft 1 HD 5/7 Well played. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:15 BisuDagger wrote: I found a link to the Starcraft HD Download and omg they changed so much! Starcraft 1 HD tadaaa! | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:14 Cele wrote: as i said above, i imagine Blizzard will try to shut any pirate servers out. (ICCup, FISH, SB) And if they do it proper, we won't have the chance to switch. If not, there is interest on our side to switch, but we have to evaluate a) the technical difficulties to do so b) if it's a good idea in the first place because b1) Compatibility between old BW and BW HD could be an issue b2) how time consuming it is for our coders. Do you really think they'd do that? It's not like wow private servers, they aren't losing any direct/significant money. The only thing this can result in is a huge backlash, but this time completely warranted (compared to the nostalrius shutdown). | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
Just like MW HD, you only get BW HD when you buy Warcraft IV. Activision style | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:26 B-royal wrote: Do you really think they'd do that? It's not like wow private servers, they aren't losing any direct/significant money. The only thing this can result in is a huge backlash, but this time completely warranted (compared to the nostalrius shutdown). i imagine them doing that, but who knows. Think about it this way: Why does Blizzard make a BW HD remake in the first place? The idea is, as with any company, to earn money. Who is the majority of the target audience to buy it? Gamers. Only a couple hundred of them use bnet 1.0 still every day and are used to the quite "dated" interface. The majority of young gamers they want to target already bought a couple of blizzard titles, like sc2, HS, Overwatch, you name it and is accommodated to the bnet 2.0 interface, they are also used to games that have no Lan support. Means: Blizzard will attempt to have a platform for it's new product, that is state of the art and appeals to younger gamers. So, if we assume bnet 2.0 is going to be the platform and the game is gonna lack LAN support, we know it's gonna be very hard for pirate servers to emulate that, effectively shutting them out, even is it's no consideration for Blizzard Entertainment at all and just coincidental. €: Of course my whole post is based on the assumption that we are talking about an individual release for BW HD. If it's just a patch, i see no problem at all. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:28 Clonester wrote: Plot twist: Just like MW HD, you only get BW HD when you buy Warcraft IV. Activision style I'm all for it if they make WarCraft IV. | ||
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Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
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Eogris
United States148 Posts
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:38 Lazare1969 wrote: I'm hoping Blizzard adds the following improvements to the new update:
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Zx47N6E.jpg) User was warned for this post | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
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tenacity
1587 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:38 Lazare1969 wrote: I'm hoping Blizzard adds the following improvements to the new update:
OH MY GOD, are you serious??? FIVE seconds? No way. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
On August 05 2016 22:06 tenacity wrote: Can I kill a lurker with one storm again pls? plsssssssss? :-[ Pshh, we need aoe mind control. | ||
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FueledUpAndReadyToGo
Netherlands30548 Posts
12 units felt crappy back in 1998 still feels crappy now | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On August 05 2016 21:33 Cele wrote: i imagine them doing that, but who knows. Think about it this way: Why does Blizzard make a BW HD remake in the first place? The idea is, as with any company, to earn money. Who is the majority of the target audience to buy it? Gamers. Only a couple hundred of them use bnet 1.0 still every day and are used to the quite "dated" interface. The majority of young gamers they want to target already bought a couple of blizzard titles, like sc2, HS, Overwatch, you name it and is accommodated to the bnet 2.0 interface, they are also used to games that have no Lan support. Means: Blizzard will attempt to have a platform for it's new product, that is state of the art and appeals to younger gamers. So, if we assume bnet 2.0 is going to be the platform and the game is gonna lack LAN support, we know it's gonna be very hard for pirate servers to emulate that, effectively shutting them out, even is it's no consideration for Blizzard Entertainment at all and just coincidental. €: Of course my whole post is based on the assumption that we are talking about an individual release for BW HD. If it's just a patch, i see no problem at all. Doubt it to be honest, running servers only costs THEM money. But lets wait for what actual improvements are, there is big difference between an entire new engine, or just higher quality sprites. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On August 05 2016 22:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Would broodwar be ruined with 200 unit selection? 12 units felt crappy back in 1998 still feels crappy now I think so, Imagine this without a selection cap | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On August 05 2016 22:48 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: Would broodwar be ruined with 200 unit selection? 12 units felt crappy back in 1998 still feels crappy now Yes the game would be ruined. - >12 air units in one control group would break mutalisks foremost. - > army control would be way too easy at specific points in the game conferring a too great of an advantage to the different races during these periods of time (for example marines and zerglings). | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 05 2016 16:32 e4e5nf3 wrote: WAT? OMG, please do not fk this up. I hope they just do a straight HD revision similar to how Age of Empires 2 was given an HD treatment without effecting the underlying engine. Please, Blizz, Do not "improve" things like being able to select unlimited buildings and units. Or fixing the ai pathfinding so it is more like sc2. Age of Empires 2 was good for casuals, but terrible for pros, they still play on the regular AoE2 client. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On August 05 2016 23:10 blade55555 wrote: Sick really looking forward to this. Wonder if they will have any sort of match making or if it's just graphic updates and we will still use iccup (maybe soon to be shield battery?). Can't see Blizz going thru all this and not killing the ability to play on iCCup/Fish, they HAAAAATTTTTEEEEEEE those services. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
So I think its more like giving a complete package to new players and unite the 2 different Esports scenes since SCII is in a sorry state and BW is on the up and up again. I mean, they let the ASL run BW and SCII side by side. I think that's kinda indicative of what they want to do in the future until SC3. | ||
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digmouse
China6327 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 05 2016 23:29 digmouse wrote: I doubt it is about building a RTS esports scene at all. The ship for RTS Esports has sailed. It don't think it aims to be an esport for world wide. But maybe Blizzard decided to give up on SC2 in Korea and decided to go for BW there while maintain WCS world wide. I heard rumors that this will the last PL. So what if Blizzard worked with KeSPA for a BW return with the HD remake for Korea while the rest of the world play SC2? BW is like 10 times larger than SC2 if not more in Korea. So maybe that is what Blizzard trying to do? | ||
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Diamond
United States10796 Posts
On August 05 2016 23:35 Wrath wrote: It don't think it aims to be an esport for world wide. But maybe Blizzard decided to give up on SC2 in Korea and decided to go for BW there while maintain WCS world wide. I heard rumors that this will the last PL. So what if Blizzard worked with KeSPA for a BW return with the HD remake for Korea while the rest of the world play SC2? BW is like 10 times larger than SC2 if not more in Korea. So maybe that is what Blizzard trying to do? I'm with Digmouse, I think this has next to nothing to do with eSports. To me just thinking for a few mins on it it seems to have two possible target goals 1: Get some $$$$, people WILL buy SC1 HD even if they aren't hardcores, nostalgia is so hot right now. 2: Kill the private servers and unify the playerbase on Battle.net (possibly 2.0). | ||
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iFU.pauline
France1496 Posts
Rest is irrelevant. | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 05 2016 23:23 Antisocialmunky wrote: I think they will probably try and just push both the games together harder to rebuild SCII's Esports Scene. They want you to get the a playable version of BW with SCII. Its not like they have stopped selling SCII after LotV. There's plenty of content they'll release for SCII but if someone wants to go play the original, its really a pain in the butt cheeks. So I think its more like giving a complete package to new players and unite the 2 different Esports scenes since SCII is in a sorry state and BW is on the up and up again. I mean, they let the ASL run BW and SCII side by side. I think that's kinda indicative of what they want to do in the future until SC3. BW is on the up and up again, but the competitive scene is still small and its actually probably declined when you look at how BW had those amazing Sbenu leagues on OGN last year and looking at what the prizepools total for BW is going to end up being in 2016. I think I read an interview from....Kim Carry a month or so ago saying that it's still a struggle to get sponsors for BW tournaments. On August 05 2016 23:38 Diamond wrote: I'm with Digmouse, I think this has next to nothing to do with eSports. To me just thinking for a few mins on it it seems to have two possible target goals 1: Get some $$$$, people WILL buy SC1 HD even if they aren't hardcores, nostalgia is so hot right now. 2: Kill the private servers and unify the playerbase on Battle.net (possibly 2.0). Its gotta have something to do with esports. If not for just the sake of esports but the brand/rapport you get with the Korean community. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 05 2016 23:29 digmouse wrote: I doubt it is about building a RTS esports scene at all. The ship for RTS Esports has sailed. except RTS esports scene isn't a ship its a chopped tree with strong roots. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
User should have been warned for this post, but I appreciated this meme so its fine. Todays TL Admins aren't the same! Great news! I cannot wait to see any more info about it | ||
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On August 05 2016 23:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: except RTS esports scene isn't a ship its a chopped tree with strong roots. Haha, well said. See? That writer tag means something  | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
BW now with more death balls, MBS, Siege mode removed. Only official blizzard maps allowed. Lan removed. New units DLC. Make BW great again! | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On August 05 2016 23:43 lestye wrote: BW is on the up and up again, but the competitive scene is still small and its actually probably declined when you look at how BW had those amazing Sbenu leagues on OGN last year and looking at what the prizepools total for BW is going to end up being in 2016. I think I read an interview from....Kim Carry a month or so ago saying that it's still a struggle to get sponsors for BW tournaments. Its gotta have something to do with esports. If not for just the sake of esports but the brand/rapport you get with the Korean community. Its easy to have huge prizes if you are an embezzling scumbag liar. Atleast Sonic had the courtesy to shutter the Sonic Starleague and not drag down BW with him. I think BW is in a better place right now than last year since a big network picked up the ASL rather it being sustained by one guy and his pure shadiness. | ||
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Shana
Indonesia1814 Posts
Idk, maybe I'm just a cynical old man but if everything Blizzard done with sc2 these past years teach me anything, everything's gonna be horrendous. | ||
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reminisce12
Australia318 Posts
higher res remove sprite limit - valk buff buff scouts atg maybe.. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
Hoping they don't touch the gameplay but give it a decent matchmaking system with no lag | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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nbaker
United States1341 Posts
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outscar
2832 Posts
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emc
United States3088 Posts
Why would they make it more like SC2? they understand that any "improvements" to the game engine is only likely to piss people off and there are plenty of SC2 style BW mods people can already play. They understand the huge culture surrounding this game, their PR would be screwed if they mess this up, I don't think they will. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 06 2016 00:27 nbaker wrote: Is it really releasing next month? Seems so soon since this is the first we're hearing about it. Blizzard is sponsoring/supporting this ASL thats going on right now. The Grand Finals are on September 4. It's likely, if this isn't bullshit, it will be revealed then. | ||
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Bareleon
371 Posts
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Dingodile
4133 Posts
edit: I don't like the colors in sc2, they look so pale compared to wc3. | ||
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GoShox
United States1835 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 06 2016 00:44 lestye wrote: Blizzard is sponsoring/supporting this ASL thats going on right now. The Grand Finals are on September 4. It's likely, if this isn't bullshit, it will be revealed then. this is the first I'm hearing about blizzard sponsoring ASL. | ||
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Probemicro
3708 Posts
RTS has always been niche and less mainstream | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 00:53 GoShox wrote: I know the main feeling is to have no faith in Blizzard, and I completely understand that. SC2 is/was a disaster. That said, they nailed Overwatch and Hearthstone, so they're clearly capable of doing things the right way. I would hope they have the common sense to know that increasing the number of units per group would completely break the game, and I think they do. If they can manage to not break anything while also giving us a central server with LAN latency and auto matchmaking, that'd be incredible. Maybe I'm too optimistic for my own good, but I have faith that this will be a good thing. What is the problem with SC2 again? | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 06 2016 00:57 BLinD-RawR wrote: this is the first I'm hearing about blizzard sponsoring ASL. I might have misunderstood the situation, but with the crazy ammount of Overwatch ads plus they were pulling weight with casters, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/510321-2016-afreeca-starleague-announced-june-sept?page=12#238 I thought this meant they were supporting ASL in some capacity. | ||
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Lorch
Germany3672 Posts
Let's just hope they don't fuck it up like the bw -> sc2 transition. If they are actually looking to allow Korea to switch from SC2 and what is left of BW to BW HD, they should make sure to properly work with Kespa this time. Just thinking about getting back BW PL is super awesome. I think with Heroes of the Storm also being a pretty big failure for Blizzard standards, Morhaim is starting to realize that the sc2 team sucks. I remember Blizz talking about considering making sc2 just an hd version of brood war and ultimately deciding against doing so, I'm pretty sure they are regretting that decision at this point. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
the overwath stuff is to promote the kt giga bj match for overwatch | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:01 lestye wrote: I might have misunderstood the situation, but with the crazy ammount of Overwatch ads plus they were pulling weight with casters, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/510321-2016-afreeca-starleague-announced-june-sept?page=12#238 I thought this meant they were supporting ASL in some capacity. I have no confirmation Blizzard has offered any money. In fact, the prizepool is so high AfreecaTV actually owes Blizzard money. It is possible this fee could be traded in advertisements. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:01 Lorch wrote: Pretty sure it's the other way around and Afreeca has to pay Blizzard to run a Brood War tournament. Let's just hope they don't fuck it up like the bw -> sc2 transition. If they are actually looking to allow Korea to switch from SC2 and what is left of BW to BW HD, they should make sure to properly work with Kespa this time. Just thinking about getting back BW PL is super awesome. I think with Heroes of the Storm also being a pretty big failure for Blizzard standards, Morhaim is starting to realize that the sc2 team sucks. I remember Blizz talking about considering making sc2 just an hd version of brood war and ultimately deciding against doing so, I'm pretty sure they are regretting that decision at this point. Explain why Heroes of the Storm is a failure. You guys cant just throw shit all over the place without explaining | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1757 Posts
On August 06 2016 00:53 GoShox wrote: I know the main feeling is to have no faith in Blizzard, and I completely understand that. SC2 is/was a disaster. That said, they nailed Overwatch and Hearthstone, so they're clearly capable of doing things the right way. I would hope they have the common sense to know that increasing the number of units per group would completely break the game, and I think they do. If they can manage to not break anything while also giving us a central server with LAN latency and auto matchmaking, that'd be incredible. Maybe I'm too optimistic for my own good, but I have faith that this will be a good thing. I havnt played Overwatch but probably both HS and OverWatch are in line with blizzards "modern game philosophy" which isnt good. In contrast to their old games they now make games that are meaninglessly addictive by sort of tapping on a persons mental reward functions by adding Achievements, unlocking portraits, daily to-do sort of things then you have paying for in-game benefits and stupifying games to make it accessible to a wieder audience and the list goes on.. The philosophy behind what made BW is no longer there ;(. | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:05 BisuDagger wrote: I have no confirmation Blizzard has offered any money. In fact, the prizepool is so high AfreecaTV actually owes Blizzard money. It is possible this fee could be traded in advertisements. Gotcha. I'd be very surprised if they actually tried to charge for licensing nowadays with how much competition there is. I know they were after television revenue years ago, but with how many game companies completely subsidize tournaments. I know Valve & Riot require licensing (http://store.steampowered.com/tourney/ ) but its like a glorified permission slip nowadays./ | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:09 ICanFlyLow wrote: I havnt played Overwatch but probably both HS and OverWatch are in line with blizzards "modern game philosophy" which isnt good. In contrast to their old games they now make games that are meaninglessly addictive by sort of tapping on a persons mental reward functions by adding Achievements, unlocking portraits, daily to-do sort of things then you have paying for in-game benefits and stupifying games to make it accessible to a wieder audience and the list goes on.. The philosophy behind what made BW is no longer there ;(. Because 0ldsch00l so c00l  ((((( | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:11 lestye wrote: Gotcha. I'd be very surprised if they actually tried to charge for licensing nowadays with how much competition there is. I know they were after television revenue years ago, but with how many game companies completely subsidize tournaments. I know Valve & Riot require licensing (http://store.steampowered.com/tourney/ ) but its like a glorified permission slip nowadays./ If you have to exchange ads for fees, then they are actually charging licensing fees, how it is being paid is irrelevant. | ||
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ramon
Germany4842 Posts
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:25 palexhur wrote: If you have to exchange ads for fees, then they are actually charging licensing fees, how it is being paid is irrelevant. There aren't any other tournaments running those ads, thats why I'm doubtful those licensing fees exist anymore. Although you still have to get permission. (edit: https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/pxnz2/lantastic_gaming_incident/c3t399s . Its a permission thing, not a taking money from orgs thing, thats why Valve & Riot still do it, I think its a way to be able to blacklist/deny tournament organizers they think are shady/scams ) | ||
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HerbMon
United States460 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6628 Posts
Heres hoping they just touch up the graphics and leave everything else alone. They do that and I'll be happy and buy it. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:48 Necro)Phagist( wrote: I'm so conflicted. I want to be hopeful. I look at Overwatch and Hearthstone and see hope, then I look at LotV, D3 and WoW and fear creeps back in. Heres hoping they just touch up the graphics and leave everything else alone. They do that and I'll be happy and buy it. Whats wrong with Diablo 3, WoW and LotV? | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6633 Posts
On August 06 2016 00:48 Bareleon wrote: I don't want HD graphics. I like the graphics on the game just the way it is. Besides, I can't even play the game after I uninstalled and reinstalled, when I reinstalled there was an update, but cause of that "awesome" update I can't play BW now. This is honestly the way I feel too, BW is perfect the way it is. | ||
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sickkungen
Sweden179 Posts
lul | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6628 Posts
Diablo 3 was a complete disaster and a shit stain on the name of Diablo games. WoW was never a huge fan of, but 100% of the people I know who play the games all say the last 3 or so expansions have been awful. Granted its a small sample size of like 15 people. Still 15/15 is not good numbers for saying its been crap. LotV killed all interest I have in the game, haven't watched a single match or played a single match since shortly after it came out. These are of course just personal opinions but to me, blizzard has shit the bed hard recently and that scares me with this upcoming BW HD. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
http://www.gamespot.com/articles/starcraft-hd-remaster-reportedly-in-development-at/1100-6442378/?ftag=GSS-05-10aaa0a | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:02 ZenithM wrote: Wow shit, that's really nice! I hope they add minor quality of life improvements, like rebindable keys. This is probably blasphemy to BW purists, hahaha. "BW purists" Are you here to provocate? please | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On August 06 2016 00:53 GoShox wrote: I know the main feeling is to have no faith in Blizzard, and I completely understand that. SC2 is/was a disaster. That said, they nailed Overwatch and Hearthstone, so they're clearly capable of doing things the right way. I would hope they have the common sense to know that increasing the number of units per group would completely break the game, and I think they do. If they can manage to not break anything while also giving us a central server with LAN latency and auto matchmaking, that'd be incredible. Maybe I'm too optimistic for my own good, but I have faith that this will be a good thing. Remind me how the game that popularized esports in America was a disaster | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:04 duke91 wrote: "BW purists" Are you here to provocate? please Are you afraid of rebindable keys? Edit: Ok, I'll answer seriously, not here to hurt egos. "BW purists" means the couple of posters above who want BW "just the way it is", without HD or anything else touched up a bit. It's like, the fucking dictionary definition of "pure BW". If they're making a new game, they're obviously going to change something. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
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skern49
28 Posts
1) Custom hotkeys 2) Fix idiotic ramp behavior without affecting any other aspect of pathing (nigh-impossible, I'm sure) 3) Fix scourge pathing where they just can't seem to hit the the slower unit running away from them, no matter how many times they try 4) HD sprites that remain true to the original sprites, i.e. no cartoony crap If they plan on having widescreen HD resolutions, won't this necessitate adding more visibility to the screen unless they use black bars? | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:56 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Diablo 3 was a complete disaster and a shit stain on the name of Diablo games. WoW was never a huge fan of, but 100% of the people I know who play the games all say the last 3 or so expansions have been awful. Granted its a small sample size of like 15 people. Still 15/15 is not good numbers for saying its been crap. LotV killed all interest I have in the game, haven't watched a single match or played a single match since shortly after it came out. These are of course just personal opinions but to me, blizzard has shit the bed hard recently and that scares me with this upcoming BW HD. Diablo 3 is great by now. Cataclysm had his weaknesses, Mists of Pandaria was great. Warlords of Draenor could have needed another raid, but it wasnt bad. Asking for a Starcraft 2 opinion in a Brood War section is like talking with a KKK supporter about ethnic stuff. You cant win. Btw: People hated Burning Crusade and WotlK while it was active: "WOW IN SPACE LOL SO MUCH PURPLE GAYELFS TENTACLEMONSTER!! SO MUCH TRASH!". WotlK: SO EASY FUCK HARDMODES FUCK ACHIEVEMENTS FUCK THE COLLO RAID " User was warned for this post | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:04 Little-Chimp wrote: Remind me how the game that popularized esports in America was a disaster Remind me again how you're not just a troll /pissed SC2 fanboy who tries to stir up trouble in the BW section. | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
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Highgamer
1399 Posts
Then it seems like a possible win-win situation to me. If the HD-Version doesn't change anything gameplay-wise, we might see lots of people come back to/join in on BW - and we can go there, too, or keep playing the old game. If the HD-Version does change something gameplay-wise, we might see lots of people come back to/join in on BW - and we can just keep playing the old game. "possible win-win situation" because I'm not sure what would happen to the korean ex-pro-scene as it is now... the broadcasters might consider to switch to HD anyways to attract more viewers... there might be some players who would switch to the HD-version even if there are gameplay-changes because of that, others would stay with the older verison, the scene would divide. But everyone might also stick with the old-version if the new gameplay is crap... | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1972 Posts
everything in mcalauncher but pluginless (antihack, wmode) networking fixes so you don't have to forward ports matchmaking and NO changes to the gameplay. seriously, BW is so finely balanced by pure chance (i doubt they could have forseen, lets say, muta stacking playing such a large role in balance), tweaking something like ramp pathing or scourge logic may reduce the skill ceiling, or worse, subtly alter the balance in a way that makes one build or race super strong. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:13 lestye wrote: I agree with you that their last games aren't as appalling and awful that people in this thread are making it out to be....but you're comparing BW enthusiasts to the KKK? REALLY???? Lets not. Every SC2 enthusiast is a mindless fanboy. Every BW enthusiast is correct | ||
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_Animus_
Bulgaria1064 Posts
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:12 Cele wrote: Remind me again how you're not just a troll /pissed SC2 fanboy who tries to stir up trouble in the BW section. Remind me how you aren't asspained and paranoid as fuck. I like BW more than SC2. SC2 was still a roaring success despite being worse than arguably the greatest multiplayer game of all time | ||
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TwiggyWan
France328 Posts
I will be able to use control groups with my azerty keyboard without having to use caps lock! It will work properly on linux! | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
If they try to "fix" anything, that's where they'll lose their player base instantly, I'm sure they wouldn't plan for a BW remake and make that obvious mistake. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:18 Heyjoray wrote: Every SC2 enthusiast is a mindless fanboy. Every BW enthusiast is correct ok we get it. | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6628 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:11 Heyjoray wrote: Diablo 3 is great by now. Cataclysm had his weaknesses, Mists of Pandaria was great. Warlords of Draenor could have needed another raid, but it wasnt bad. Asking for a Starcraft 2 opinion in a Brood War section is like talking with a KKK supporter about ethnic stuff. You cant win. Btw: People hated Burning Crusade and WotlK while it was active: "WOW IN SPACE LOL SO MUCH PURPLE GAYELFS TENTACLEMONSTER!! SO MUCH TRASH!". WotlK: SO EASY FUCK HARDMODES FUCK ACHIEVEMENTS FUCK THE COLLO RAID " Diablo 3 to me is still trash, but again personal opinion if you like it cool man. All I said is that I'M afraid of what they might do to BW. If other people find these games good, that is great for them. I hated Diablo 3, and I find no entertainment in LotV, I enjoyed WoL and Heart of the Swarm for the most part, it had its fault but I still played and enjoyed it. So before going all caps lock on me about WoW(Which I don't play, as I said I relied on info from friends about it.) and comparing me to the KKK ease up and realize this is all personal opinion. No need to be an ass hat. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:04 Little-Chimp wrote: I would say BW popularized esports as a whole. Noobs abroad were years behind Korea so they couldn't have an esport out of it and could only watch in jealousy, but new game levelled up the playing field.Remind me how the game that popularized esports in America was a disaster | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:19 Little-Chimp wrote: Remind me how you aren't asspained and paranoid as fuck. I like BW more than SC2. SC2 was still a roaring success despite being worse than arguably the greatest multiplayer game of all time Remind me again why i even bother talking to you. Oh now i know, i got no reason to. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:25 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Diablo 3 to me is still trash, but again personal opinion if you like it cool man. All I said is that I'M afraid of what they might do to BW. If other people find these games good, that is great for them. I hated Diablo 3, and I find no entertainment in LotV, I enjoyed WoL and Heart of the Swarm for the most part, it had its fault but I still played and enjoyed it. So before going all caps lock on me about WoW(Which I don't play, as I said I relied on info from friends about it.) and comparing me to the KKK ease up and realize this is all personal opinion. No need to be an ass hat. Yeah, your personal opinion is like...Well keep it for yourself. Especially when you give zero reasons. Its useless when you just shit all over the place and call it an "opinion" | ||
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riotjune
United States3392 Posts
ima have to clean my keyboard now | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6628 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:31 Heyjoray wrote: Yeah, your personal opinion is like...Well keep it for yourself. Especially when you give zero reasons. Its useless when you just shit all over the place and call it an "opinion" I'm sorry I thought this was a forum, a place for discussion and such. I didn't give reasons because I didn't want to write an essay about it, to be quite frank you're not worth my time to write out and explain it to. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:34 Necro)Phagist( wrote: I'm sorry I thought this was a forum, a place for discussion and such. I didn't give reasons because I didn't want to wrtie an eassay about it, to be quite frank you're not worth my time to write out and explain it to. You dont discussed. You call things bad. Thats exactly what taking a shit is: You just do it. And you shouldnt really do it in a forum | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:31 Heyjoray wrote: Yeah, your personal opinion is like...Well keep it for yourself. Especially when you give zero reasons. Its useless when you just shit all over the place and call it an "opinion" you don't get it. The average person on this forum has played a good amount of Starcraft 2 and for different reasons switched back to Starcraft Broodwar. So searching for the "StarCraft 2 Opinion" here is just futile. I don't mind which game you prefer, but if you need an "Sc2 perspective" i suggest you talk about it in the Sc2 Forums. | ||
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cha0
Canada504 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6628 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:35 Heyjoray wrote: You dont discussed. You call things bad. Thats exactly what taking a shit is: You just do it Hey if you wanted to have a discussion about the faults of the games, I might have gone into detail. Instead you went the condescending comparing to KKK route. Which right there tells me there is 0 point in trying to have any form of intellectual discussion with you. | ||
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:04 Little-Chimp wrote: I thought Counterstrike was a great game!Remind me how the game that popularized esports in America was a disaster ...but seriously, saying SC2 was a "disaster" is a joke. There was plenty of mismanagement of the competitive side, but it's a great, fun, modern RTS. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:38 cha0 wrote: They will almost certainly integrate this release with bnet2.0. No LAN, part of the new blizz game launcher. That would fix so many things | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:18 Heyjoray wrote: Every SC2 enthusiast is a mindless fanboy. Every BW enthusiast is correct So you visit this forum only to flame | ||
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:48 bduddy wrote: Also. Why the hell are people asking for BW HD to not change anything? It's not like BW will be deleted from your computers. It will still exist, and you can still play it if you want to. Making a new game with zero changes would be pointless and stupid. Nobody said to not change anything, people specifically asked for the gameplay to not change, that's it. | ||
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kongoline
6318 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:31 Heyjoray wrote: Yeah, your personal opinion is like...Well keep it for yourself. Especially when you give zero reasons. Its useless when you just shit all over the place and call it an "opinion" pretty sure everyone who played d2 says that | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:53 kongoline wrote: pretty sure everyone who played d2 says that EVERYONE | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:48 bduddy wrote: Also. Why the hell are people asking for BW HD to not change anything? It's not like BW will be deleted from your computers. It will still exist, and you can still play it if you want to. Making a new game with zero changes would be pointless and stupid. It's stupid how people who never post on the BW forum ever, never discuss the game itself now suggests BW to fundamentally change. 99% who ACTUALLY play BW don't want anything to change. | ||
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21242 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:54 duke91 wrote: It's stupid how people who never post on the BW forum ever, never discuss the game itself now suggests BW to fundamentally change. 99% who ACTUALLY play BW don't want anything to change. But then, what would be the point of shieldbattery and why would people be so hyped about it (it changes stuff, it just keeps the gameplay intact)? | ||
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[SWE-1]rUSKIG
Sweden9 Posts
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:29 Cele wrote: Remind me again why i even bother talking to you. Oh now i know, i got no reason to. I've been in TL since 2008 as a massive BW fan and I find it pretty pathetic how saying anything positive (literally calling it "not shit") about SC2 in the BW forum gets people this upset. It's a great day for BW, theres a remaster and ASL is kick ass, what the fuck are you so insecure about | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:57 Essbee wrote: But then, what would be the point of shieldbattery and why would people be so hyped about it (it changes stuff, it just keeps the gameplay intact)? It doesn't change anything except make hosting games WAY easier + matchmaking. If you atually played BW, you would know how hard it is to set up games since blizzard never gave a shit about having an actual good Battle.net. Imagine SC2 without matchmaking, and hosting games works only 50% of the time due to technical issues. Shield battery fixes all that and leaves gameplay unchanged. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:57 Essbee wrote: But then, what would be the point of shieldbattery and why would people be so hyped about it (it changes stuff, it just keeps the gameplay intact)? You're not getting the essence of this. If you change the gameplay by making auto mine, unlimited unit selection, and perfect pathing available its practically a sc2 but probably way more unbalanced and game breaking. I do understand when some people may want auto match making system, portraits, Observor mode, rank, hotkey settings, and other non game breaking aspect. But if you want it LIKE sc2 then what's the point then? You could just go play sc2. If you do change it like sc2 it will be worse version of sc2 -_- | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:01 Little-Chimp wrote: I've been in TL since 2008 as a massive BW fan and I find it pretty pathetic how saying anything positive (literally calling it "not shit") about SC2 in the BW forum gets people this upset. It's a great day for BW, theres a remaster and ASL is kick ass, what the fuck are you so insecure about In case you didn't know, Blizzard is blamed for killing professional BW by forcing SC2 in everyones throat. This wouldn't be a problem if SC2 was good. For most if not all here, it isn't. Suggesting BW to change towards SC2 basically insults what we prefer with BW. | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:01 duke91 wrote: It doesn't change anything except make hosting games WAY easier + matchmaking. If you atually played BW, you would know how hard it is to set up games since blizzard never gave a shit about having an actual good Battle.net. Imagine SC2 without matchmaking, and hosting games works only 50% of the time due to technical issues. Shield battery fixes all that and leaves gameplay unchanged. I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say. I play BW, I know all that, but you said "99% of people don't want to change anything", but that's not true or else Shieldbattery wouldn't exist or people would shit on it. The guy you quoted said "making a new game with zero changes would be pointless and stupid." How can you even disagree with that if you support shieldbattery? I just feel there is a misunderstanding somewhere. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:04 duke91 wrote: In case you didn't know, Blizzard is blamed for killing professional BW by forcing SC2 in everyones throat. This wouldn't be a problem if SC2 was good. For most if not all here, it isn't. Suggesting BW to change towards SC2 basically insults what we prefer with BW. Forcing = Releasing a new game. Makes perfect sense | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:03 Shinokuki wrote: You're not getting the essence of this. If you change the gameplay by making auto mine, unlimited unit selection, and perfect pathing available its practically a sc2 but probably way more unbalanced and game breaking. I do understand when some people may want auto match making system, portraits, Observor mode, rank, hotkey settings, and other non game breaking aspect. But if you want it LIKE sc2 then what's the point then? You could just go play sc2. If you do change it like sc2 it will be worse version of sc2 -_- What? Why are you quoting me on this? | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:07 Heyjoray wrote: Forcing = Releasing a new game. Makes perfect sense Wow, you shit on bw fans but have actually zero idea of what blizzard tried to do while releasing sc2, do you? | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
What specific changes do you want particularly? | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:08 Essbee wrote: Wow, you shit on bw fans but have actually zero idea of what blizzard tried to do while releasing sc2, do you? Yeah, they surpressed the endless amount of piracy in korea | ||
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:09 Shinokuki wrote: What specific changes do you want particularly? Shieldbattery, basically. So no changes to the gameplay, at all. Read my last post quoting duke91, I was just explaining a misunderstanding between them, I am a huge bw fan. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:10 Heyjoray wrote: Yeah, they surpressed the endless amount of piracy in korea How cute. | ||
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:01 Little-Chimp wrote: I've been in TL since 2008 as a massive BW fan and I find it pretty pathetic how saying anything positive (literally calling it "not shit") about SC2 in the BW forum gets people this upset. It's a great day for BW, theres a remaster and ASL is kick ass, what the fuck are you so insecure about I enjoy both BW and SC2. But many people still blame Blizzard for killing the pro BW scene during the KeSPA era because of Blizzard's lawsuit against KeSPA, OGN, and MBCGame. This was one major reason along with the matchfixing scandal for many teams disbanding at that time and MBCGame shifting to broadcasting kpop instead of esports. So many people still have the mentality that SC2 and BW are competition, and are bitter about Blizzard's actions which I find understandable. | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
if you are the owner of a bar and do u think making an expansion will give you more money wont you try the same ? ok the product wasnt the best,but if it wasnt for Korea no one proly cared about Starcraft Broodwar.People posting here forgot who the creator of Starcraft is ? | ||
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Hexe
United States332 Posts
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Essbee
Canada2371 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:12 iamho wrote: I enjoy both BW and SC2. But many people still blame Blizzard for killing the pro BW scene during the KeSPA era because of Blizzard's lawsuit against KeSPA, OGN, and MBCGame. This was one major reason along with the matchfixing scandal for many teams disbanding at that time and MBCGame shifting to broadcasting kpop instead of esports. So many people still have the mentality that SC2 and BW are competition, and are bitter about Blizzard's actions which I find understandable. Not only that, but kespa forced everyone to switch. The whole league (with their contracts) were forced to switch to another game, just because the game has "starcraft" in its name (making pro-bw disappear in the process). | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:14 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: if you are the owner of a bar and do u think making an expansion will give you more money wont you try the same ? ok the product wasnt the best,but if it wasnt for Korea no one proly cared about Starcraft Broodwar.People posting here forgot who the creator of Starcraft is ? Chances are there is no one left who developed BW who is currently working for Blizzard. So no, I don't see Blizzard NOW as the creator of SCBW. Even then, it was the Koreans, the progaming scene and pioneers and their passion for their game which made BW great. Blizzard should be thankful for Korea, not the other way around. But repeatly Blizzard NOW stomped on this legacy without any sign of gratitude. | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:21 duke91 wrote: Chances are there is no one left who developed BW who is currently working for Blizzard. So no, I don't see Blizzard NOW as the creator of SCBW. Even then, it was the Koreans, the progaming scene and pioneers and their passion for their game which made BW great. Blizzard should be thankful for Korea, not the other way around. But repeatly Blizzard NOW stomped on this legacy without any sign of gratitude. 10 million copies of Starcraft/Brood War sold. How many of them in korea? And dont you dare saying that korea advertised starcraft for the masses | ||
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
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DwD
Sweden8621 Posts
Art update + Battle.Net or w/e improvements sure... | ||
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Kevin_Sorbo
Canada3217 Posts
thx for the meme-ories | ||
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purakushi
United States3300 Posts
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Cyanocyst
2222 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:18 Hexe wrote: I hope they fix the unit movement and make it crisper, while still making it feel like the original. When i watched Tasteless and Artosis cast some brood-war, a few months ago. I thought the same, all the units move so jerky to how I'm accustomed. It was kind of jarring. I know most people would just like them to make BW playable on modern PC's but i would like some polishing up. I don't know almost anything about code, though I wonder if its possible to add animations between the existing unit animations. Though make it so, the new animations are only visually present to the player. The Software and code should still read that the units are physically moving exactly like BW. I think that way it could look a lot more crisp, without hurting the feel of the BW units. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:21 duke91 wrote: Chances are there is no one left who developed BW who is currently working for Blizzard. So no, I don't see Blizzard NOW as the creator of SCBW. Even then, it was the Koreans, the progaming scene and pioneers and their passion for their game which made BW great. Blizzard should be thankful for Korea, not the other way around. But repeatly Blizzard NOW stomped on this legacy without any sign of gratitude. Mike Morhaime, who coded much of the multiplayer work on the original Battlenet for BW, is the CEO of the company. This thread is a mess but for what its worth, the first time I met Morhaime he called the whole Blizzard-KeSPA debacle one of the biggest mistakes of his career. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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Liquid`Zephyr
United States996 Posts
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JensWalker
Canada20 Posts
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Percutio
United States1672 Posts
If it is as good as the Age of Empires 2 HD remake I will be ecstatic. | ||
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Lazix
Australia378 Posts
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Kerence
Sweden1817 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:50 Heyoka wrote: Mike Morhaime, who coded much of the multiplayer work on the original Battlenet for BW, is the CEO of the company. This thread is a mess but for what its worth, the first time I met Morhaime he called the whole Blizzard-KeSPA debacle one of the biggest mistakes of his career. And what about Chris Metzen, who was the lead designer for Starcraft. He's now the Senior VP of the story department I believe? | ||
]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Andre
Slovenia3516 Posts
The guy who wrote most if not all of the SC1 engine is gone. I believe there's still 2-3 people from original SC1 team that work for the blizzard legacy team, but not sure what were their roles. The cinematics team is afaik still there, but that has little bearing on the remake. | ||
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Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:49 Cyanocyst wrote: When i watched Tasteless and Artosis cast some brood-war, a few months ago. I thought the same, all the units move so jerky to how I'm accustomed. It was kind of jarring. I know most people would just like them to make BW playable on modern PC's but i would like some polishing up. I don't know almost anything about code, though I wonder if its possible to add animations between the existing unit animations. Though make it so, the new animations are only visually present to the player. The Software and code should still read that the units are physically moving exactly like BW. I think that way it could look a lot more crisp, without hurting the feel of the BW units. Fixing unit movement/animations would scare me that they'd probably screw with existing weirdness (goodness) with the current animations. I enjoy the challenge of controlling a group of goliaths up a ramp into an enemy base, makes things like moving shot and stop micro that much more powerful. I've gone back to playing BW on Shield Battery and I don't even mind the older graphics, still looks fine to me, so not really all that excited for HD Broodwar to be honest. *shrug* | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3516 Posts
Automated tournaments/matchmaking anyone? It would be great to have the official servers not be shit and riddled with cheaters. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
On August 06 2016 04:20 Andre wrote: Metzen is just a writer. The guy who wrote most if not all of the SC1 engine is gone. I believe there's still 2-3 people from original SC1 team that work for the blizzard legacy team, but not sure what were their roles. The cinematics team is afaik still there, but that has little bearing on the remake. i think Bob Fitch made the SC1 engine and he is working on Heathstone last i heard. | ||
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GoShox
United States1835 Posts
On August 06 2016 04:26 Andre wrote: ^New resolutions(as long as they retain the same aspect ratio), +new features on the bnet would be neat. Automated tournaments/matchmaking anyone? It would be great to have the official servers not be shit and riddled with cheaters. Yeah, there's a lot to be excited for. I haven't played SC2 in a few years but playing online basically feels like LAN latency, right? I don't ever remember a huge delay between my actions and when they occur. If so, that'd be amazing for BW compared to the low latency that exists on the BNET servers for Brood War. I'm assuming it wouldn't be P2P since SC2 isn't | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:29 Heyjoray wrote: 10 million copies of Starcraft/Brood War sold. How many of them in korea? And dont you dare saying that korea advertised starcraft for the masses heavily discounted at the time of purchase though. its not like SC1 sold 7 million units in the first 3 months when it was full price; and its not like those 7 million people went out and bought the full price version of Brood War. SC1/Brood War makes for great "old timer war stories" about how great Blizz was way way back. It makes very little money for ATVI and as a result they assign very few resources to it. | ||
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Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
On August 06 2016 04:29 GoShox wrote: Yeah, there's a lot to be excited for. I haven't played SC2 in a few years but playing online basically feels like LAN latency, right? I don't ever remember a huge delay between my actions and when they occur. If so, that'd be amazing for BW compared to the low latency that exists on the BNET servers for Brood War. I'm assuming it wouldn't be P2P since SC2 isn't Shield Battery takes care of both of your replies. No anti-hack in SB (that I am aware of) yet but it is working on matchmaking and I've played games with people in Europe from US with LAN lat. edit: I missed that you said "official" servers, so that part of my reply is irrelevant I suppose. Whups. | ||
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GoShox
United States1835 Posts
On August 06 2016 04:30 Torenhire wrote: Shield Battery takes care of both of your replies. No anti-hack in SB (that I am aware of) yet but it is working on matchmaking and I've played games with people in Europe from US with LAN lat. Yes, I'm in SB and am aware. Just like iCCup and Chaos Launcher also have LAN latency. But a BW HD hosted on a Battle.net server would be much more accessible than either of those, and I'm just curious as to if playing on a server like that would still allow for something really close to the LAN latency that Brood War currently has. I also remember trying to play on the Korean server on SC2 and experiencing quite some delay between when I did stuff and when it actually happened, presumably since it's not P2P and I live in the US. Since I love playing Koreans, I would hope that doesn't occur in this, but unfortunately I assume it probably would. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44043 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
On August 06 2016 02:25 Necro)Phagist( wrote: Diablo 3 to me is still trash, but again personal opinion if you like it cool man. All I said is that I'M afraid of what they might do to BW. If other people find these games good, that is great for them. I hated Diablo 3, and I find no entertainment in LotV, I enjoyed WoL and Heart of the Swarm for the most part, it had its fault but I still played and enjoyed it. So before going all caps lock on me about WoW(Which I don't play, as I said I relied on info from friends about it.) and comparing me to the KKK ease up and realize this is all personal opinion. No need to be an ass hat. Blizzard is too busy folding all the money they are making from Overwatch to continue to "take feedback" from people who hate everything about Diablo3 and SC2 though. I've enjoyed SC2 a great deal and i think LotV was a solid improvement. D3: i only bought it because i'm a Blizzard guy. A substantial portion of the "D2 guys" i know believe D3 is really solid. Which is why D3 continues to sell many millions of copies many years after the initial hype of the release. Consistent staying power is objective proof of quality... and that applies to Diablo 3 just as much as it does Brood War. Pacman or M.U.L.E. or NHL '94 or Tecmo NFL Football or Fire Pro Wrestling or Brood War may not be your kind of game. Objectively speaking, they're all great games and Diablo3 is on its way to being included in that list. | ||
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On August 06 2016 04:11 Kerence wrote: And what about Chris Metzen, who was the lead designer for Starcraft. He's now the Senior VP of the story department I believe? Chris Sigaty did QA testing or some shit on SC1 as well and is now the VP of the entirety of Team1 (StarCraft and Heroes franchises). | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:21 duke91 wrote: Chances are there is no one left who developed BW who is currently working for Blizzard. So no, I don't see Blizzard NOW as the creator of SCBW. Even then, it was the Koreans, the progaming scene and pioneers and their passion for their game which made BW great. Blizzard should be thankful for Korea, not the other way around. But repeatly Blizzard NOW stomped on this legacy without any sign of gratitude. On August 06 2016 04:20 Andre wrote: Metzen is just a writer. The guy who wrote most if not all of the SC1 engine is gone. I believe there's still 2-3 people from original SC1 team that work for the blizzard legacy team, but not sure what were their roles. The cinematics team is afaik still there, but that has little bearing on the remake. Wrong. http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/starcraft-brood-war/credits That being said, those people who worked on the SC1 engine are probably moved onto SC2, I think a remake or whatever would be part of the Classic Games game, which they were hiring for not too long ago. On August 06 2016 03:50 Heyoka wrote: Mike Morhaime, who coded much of the multiplayer work on the original Battlenet for BW, is the CEO of the company. This thread is a mess but for what its worth, the first time I met Morhaime he called the whole Blizzard-KeSPA debacle one of the biggest mistakes of his career. Really? What year was this when you first met him? | ||
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GGTeMpLaR
United States7226 Posts
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Kerence
Sweden1817 Posts
On August 06 2016 04:54 Heyoka wrote: Chris Sigaty did QA testing or some shit on SC1 as well and is now the VP of the entirety of Team1 (StarCraft and Heroes franchises). So in fact a number of the big names at Blizzard were involved in StarCraft in some way (although I knew this already, forgot about Sigaty doing work on SC1 though). On August 06 2016 05:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The biggest and most important name was Pardo. He was the game designer for Brood War. He transformed SC1 from a really good game to 1 of the best games ever made. IMO, Pardo is the best game designer in the world and he no longer works for Blizzard. the hardest thing for a designer and team manager to do.. is to take something that is already really good and turn it into something great. Pardo pulled it off. in the Blizzard retrospective thing Morhaime stated he coded the map maker with C++. short of that i've never heard him claim he coded anything else for SC1. Yeah, Pardo leaving was a loss for sure. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
the hardest thing for a designer and team manager to do.. is to take something that is already really good and turn it into something great. Pardo pulled it off. in the Blizzard retrospective thing Morhaime stated he coded the map maker with C++. short of that i've never heard him claim he coded anything else for SC1. On August 06 2016 04:54 Heyoka wrote: Chris Sigaty did QA testing or some shit on SC1 as well and is now the VP of the entirety of Team1 (StarCraft and Heroes franchises). i do not think Sigaty is a Vice President. Browder is the VP with SC2 and HotS under his circle of power. Sigaty is the executive producer of SC2 and a "production director". https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-sigaty-2811294 | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3516 Posts
I'm not sure how much Rob Pardo had to do with SC1, but didn't he rise throughout the ranks when he started his career with blizzard? As far as WoW is concerned, it's sad he's gone. I feel like the vast amounts of knowledge he had accumulated from his EQ1 days really helped when it came to designing wow vanilla/tbc. He and Kaplan made WoW great, basically. | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/tough-times-on-the-road-to-starcraft | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
On August 06 2016 05:42 TaShadan wrote: Patrick Wyatt was the most important guy behind BW: http://www.codeofhonor.com/blog/tough-times-on-the-road-to-starcraft actually i was. i just haven't made a blog about it yet. i think the game designer and the money man are the 2 most important influences on a piece of entertainment software. that'd be Pardo; Davidson & Assoc. were the money men. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3516 Posts
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Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
On August 06 2016 05:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The biggest and most important name was Pardo. He was the game designer for Brood War. He transformed SC1 from a really good game to 1 of the best games ever made. IMO, Pardo is the best game designer in the world and he no longer works for Blizzard. the hardest thing for a designer and team manager to do.. is to take something that is already really good and turn it into something great. Pardo pulled it off. in the Blizzard retrospective thing Morhaime stated he coded the map maker with C++. short of that i've never heard him claim he coded anything else for SC1. i do not think Sigaty is a Vice President. Browder is the VP with SC2 and HotS under his circle of power. Sigaty is the executive producer of SC2 and a "production director". https://www.linkedin.com/in/chris-sigaty-2811294 He is. Sigaty is the executive in charge of two franchises, Tim Morten is the producer in charge of SC2 and Browder is the producer in charge of Heroes. They both report to Sigaty who reports to Morhaime and Bobby Kotick. On August 06 2016 04:57 lestye wrote: Really? What year was this when you first met him? This was maybe early 2013? Was before we left NYC in the TLHQ. | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
Or is this just fantasy... | ||
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nighcol
298 Posts
On August 06 2016 05:31 JimmyJRaynor wrote: The biggest and most important name was Pardo. He was the game designer for Brood War. He transformed SC1 from a really good game to 1 of the best games ever made. IMO, Pardo is the best game designer in the world and he no longer works for Blizzard. the hardest thing for a designer and team manager to do.. is to take something that is already really good and turn it into something great. Pardo pulled it off. in the Blizzard retrospective thing Morhaime stated he coded the map maker with C++. short of that i've never heard him claim he coded anything else for SC1. Well, he was also the Design Director for SC2 and if I'm pretty sure I watched an interview where it was mentioned that it was Pardo specifically that pushed for SC2 to deviate more from SC1 when the team was wary of changing things from it with SC2. Personally I do think SC2 ended up in a pretty great place even though it's definitely helped a lot that they've been working at it in three parts. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
On August 06 2016 06:06 Heyoka wrote: He is. Sigaty is the executive in charge of two franchises, Tim Morten is the producer in charge of SC2 and Browder is the producer in charge of Heroes. They both report to Sigaty who reports to Morhaime and Bobby Kotick. you are saying Sigaty is a Vice President? or are you saying something else? Source? Browder was announced as a VIce President at Blizzcon and the 2nd man on the stage at BlizzCon 2013. Browder is Vice President and underneath his watchful eye is Heroes of the Storm and Starcraft2... here is my source. BlizzCon 2013. + Show Spoiler + | ||
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KevinKnocke
2 Posts
On August 06 2016 07:01 JimmyJRaynor wrote: you are saying Sigaty is a Vice President? or are you saying something else? Source? Browder was announced as a VIce President at Blizzcon and the 2nd man on the stage at BlizzCon 2013. Browder is Vice President and underneath his watchful eye is Heroes of the Storm and Starcraft2... here is my source. BlizzCon 2013. + Show Spoiler + https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTaMrklE9Yw Hey, I used to work at Blizzard as the video producer on Team 1 for Heroes of the Storm and Starcraft II. Both Sigaty and Browder are VPs. There doesn't just have to be one per team. WoW has several. I tried to necro my old CatsPajamasSC2 account for verification, but it looks like it was closed a while ago. Let me know if you have any questions, but I worked there not too long ago. EDIT: Think of it this way. Sigaty oversees the teams from a production perspective, Browder oversees them from a design perspective. Both are VPs. | ||
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KevinKnocke
2 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Qikz
United Kingdom12022 Posts
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Torenhire
United States11681 Posts
On August 06 2016 07:50 KevinKnocke wrote: Hey, I used to work at Blizzard as the video producer on Team 1 for Heroes of the Storm and Starcraft II. Both Sigaty and Browder are VPs. There doesn't just have to be one per team. WoW has several. I tried to necro my old CatsPajamasSC2 account for verification, but it looks like it was closed a while ago. Let me know if you have any questions, but I worked there not too long ago. EDIT: Think of it this way. Sigaty oversees the teams from a production perspective, Browder oversees them from a design perspective. Both are VPs. Very common in business, my current company has two VPs, one oversees Operations and the other Sales and Design. Not really sure why the topic has evolved into this discussion though, lol. | ||
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ROOTFayth
Canada3351 Posts
could be fun to get into again for old time sake | ||
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LordOfDabu
United States392 Posts
I wonder what the price point will be. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16642 Posts
On August 06 2016 07:50 KevinKnocke wrote: Hey, I used to work at Blizzard as the video producer on Team 1 for Heroes of the Storm and Starcraft II. Both Sigaty and Browder are VPs. There doesn't just have to be one per team. WoW has several. thanks for the info about Sigaty being a VP. i'm not stating there must be 1 VP per team. regarding Sigaty... an executive producer title indicates to me he makes money and budget decisions. | ||
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
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Zealously
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On August 05 2016 17:06 iFU.pauline wrote: linux support yes or no? :/ If the original didn't support Linux (did it?) I will be OUTRAGED if Blizzard dared change that | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
On August 06 2016 07:58 Shield wrote: Do you think KeSPA will be back for more cash once they hear about BW in HD? If it meant team leagues they have my support. | ||
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JD.
Australia250 Posts
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blabber
United States4448 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On August 06 2016 03:29 Heyjoray wrote: 10 million copies of Starcraft/Brood War sold. How many of them in korea? And dont you dare saying that korea advertised starcraft for the masses I read somewhere outside TL, that almost 50% of those were sold in Korea, so just stfu. | ||
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Phayze
Canada2029 Posts
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byj
494 Posts
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 06 2016 11:25 byj wrote: This is prolly the wrong thread for this, but does anybody else find the BW minimap hard to read? get glasses | ||
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On August 06 2016 10:37 palexhur wrote: I read somewhere outside TL, that almost 50% of those were sold in Korea, so just stfu. I'm with you man. The article itself says 4.5 million were told in Korea. | ||
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coco855
2 Posts
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Akara12345
164 Posts
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cpc
Australia126 Posts
We will have to see but given I haven't seen an HD re-release (for a game that I'm interested in) that I thought was an improvement I don't have much hope in this case. Also I don't know why people point to AOE2HD given that it removed LAN, massively increased system requirements and locked it to steam. If the equivalent happened for broodwar no one would be happy. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 06 2016 12:30 cpc wrote: It seems odd to me that they would invest in 1.17 and and HD re-release unless the HD re-release is just a new gui that wraps around the original game to enable bnet2 integration. We will have to see but given I haven't seen an HD re-release (for a game that I'm interested in) that I thought was an improvement I don't have much hope in this case. Also I don't know why people point to AOE2HD given that it removed LAN, massively increased system requirements and locked it to steam. If the equivalent happened for broodwar no one would be happy. I can't speak for super competitive Korean play, but I don't think that matters to most of the world. Its almost a 20 year old game so even if they made it 4x bloatier it wouldnt matter to people who have modern machines. | ||
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cpc
Australia126 Posts
On August 06 2016 12:40 lestye wrote: I can't speak for super competitive Korean play, but I don't think that matters to most of the world. Its almost a 20 year old game so even if they made it 4x bloatier it wouldnt matter to people who have modern machines. This is true but I do quite like the fact that I can still run it on a P3 (or AOE2) just in case the opportunity arises for an 8 player sc lan party. For 1.16.1 I could theoretically still play it on the mimum requirement of Pentium 80 if I really wanted to and thats probably why I will keep 1.16.1 for my own use even when/if 1.17 is out. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
On August 06 2016 12:33 BLinD-RawR wrote: I doubt a full b.net 2.0 integration is on the table, especially if they are doing a 2016 release. Cross-game chat with the other modern Blizzard games and integration into the Battle.net launcher is the least that I can hope for. Knowing Blizzard, I wouldn't be surprised to see them gradually add features down the road. | ||
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spiff
United States22 Posts
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c3rberUs
Japan11285 Posts
On August 06 2016 13:34 spiff wrote: Do we even have a full translation of the article yet? I don't think there's much info other than it's an announcement of a patch with the word 'HD' plastered everywhere. | ||
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ThaReckoning
United States197 Posts
Like it or not, SC2 is getting crushed by its competitors in Dota, CS:GO and League. People will take some sort of perception of what being an RTS is and stick their heads in the sand, but the reality is that they're PC strategy games. They should be compared and held to the standard of the others. Along with that comes all the rampant imbalance, but people don't really take kindly to proof of that for whatever reason. I'm probably already going to get flamed to hell for pointing out that sc2 is a drop of water in the ocean that is the competition. On August 06 2016 01:05 Heyjoray wrote: Explain why Heroes of the Storm is a failure. You guys cant just throw shit all over the place without explaining Heroes of the Storm is failing because it's a ham fisted attempt to cash in on the Moba market, and take the edge off the blunder of letting Icefrog and Dota go. The only thing that Heroes has over other Mobas is the maps/map mechanic focused gameplay. Everything else it does wrong just like every other moba, it's full of all the good old tropes. I can't speak for WoW and I already did SC2, but D3 is a game about making up builds to blow stuff up to farm cool items, where there's one preapproved build per class, and you can't trade items (yeah yeah unless the person was there when you got it, this basically doesn't even count). I also hear a lot of complaints about the story retconning earlier elements, and how cartoony instead of dark and gloomy that it is. Edit: Grammar | ||
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HaruHaru
United States988 Posts
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Bosscelot
United Kingdom52 Posts
On August 06 2016 01:05 Heyjoray wrote: Explain why Heroes of the Storm is a failure. You guys cant just throw shit all over the place without explaining I'll add to what ThaReckoning said by saying that HotS averages around 270k games in a week. By comparison Dota 2 averages around 15 million and that isn't counting custom games. I'm not sure if it's counting games played on the Perfect World servers in China either (which would make the number even bigger). Added on to this is the fact that a HotS game usually takes around half the time of a dota game, maybe a bit more. So while HotS doesn't really need to be beating Dota 2, that statistic is pretty shocking and also explains why Blizzard refuses to release player numbers for it. It isn't doing well at all in terms of player count and the viewership has always been dead in the water. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3516 Posts
I mean SC2 still gets like 30k+ viewers for bigger tournaments, I've seen HotS with ~15k. Yea those are low when compared to 100-500k+ for dota/lol/csgo, but there's no point in comparing. Different games, different audience, different infrastructures in place. I mean Smite is even less popular than those examples and it's still hosting tournaments and has enough players to find games reliably. Another good example is Evolve which was pretty much dead(took forever to find matches), but new updates+features brought in enough players that it'll probably have a healthy community after the initial hype dies off. People should stop being so fixated with player/viewer numbers. | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
flash back best back and jaedong probably coming back soon a full-on BW revival is becoming a reality with this great news | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 06 2016 20:53 phosphorylation wrote: with ASL going strong flash back best back and jaedong probably coming back soon a full-on BW revival is becoming a reality with this great news reminds me of the recent Melee revival... | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
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iu1nguoi0iuminh
Vietnam44 Posts
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
On August 06 2016 21:28 Wrath wrote: Next step is OSL return after *secret* talks between Blizzard and OGN :D I still want just one LotV OSL though :/ But after that they can go back to BW | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 07 2016 00:50 eviltomahawk wrote: I still want just one LotV OSL though :/ But after that they can go back to BW That'll never happen. Don't taint bw | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
They've already had a SC2 OSL. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
They had two, one in WoL and one in HotS | ||
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WhosQuany
Germany257 Posts
On August 07 2016 01:03 Shield wrote: BW HD sounds better and better after Blizzard's inability to improve SC2 scene. i agree and I´m thinking about switching if the HD version isn't to different from the Original | ||
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 06 2016 16:07 ThaReckoning wrote: Like it or not, SC2 is getting crushed by its competitors in Dota, CS:GO and League. People will take some sort of perception of what being an RTS is and stick their heads in the sand, but the reality is that they're PC strategy games. They should be compared and held to the standard of the others. Along with that comes all the rampant imbalance, but people don't really take kindly to proof of that for whatever reason. I'm probably already going to get flamed to hell for pointing out that sc2 is a drop of water in the ocean that is the competition. What? Are you seriously implying that Dota, Starcraft CS:GO and League are in the same genre? Get real. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Maybe if they make also UI improvements, they have some chance of getting new customers for BW - I know that here on TL, there is this hardcore group of BW fans, who see the game as completely perfect, but let's face it, how many people there are, who would be willing to play BW as it is (just with better graphics and maybe matchmaking) and don't play it already? | ||
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bduddy
United States1326 Posts
On August 07 2016 01:31 Disregard wrote: What was actually wrong with it? I was subscribed to the subreddit but never saw anything other than vague whining and subjective complaints.As long as it doesn't turn out like AOE2 HD. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I'll just pray they don't change anything to gameplay. (and the story and music) | ||
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ArmadA[NaS]
United States346 Posts
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
On August 07 2016 02:08 bduddy wrote: What was actually wrong with it? I was subscribed to the subreddit but never saw anything other than vague whining and subjective complaints. I didn't play it myself, but I was watching a lot of this unfold. Problems: Tons of bugs that weren't in the original, some bad optimization, and then an expansion which broke multiplayer. Lot of desync issues. | ||
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Rainalcar
Croatia358 Posts
1. Pure technical improvements 2. Reduced Spider Mine vision 3. Improvements to observer mode 4. Some colors on minimaps are difficult to see. Spider mines are also too big. Would be interesting: 1. Slight decrease of SCV health 2. Medic special abilities 3. Beefier or faster building Nydus Would be VERY interesting/risky: 1. Ghosts 2. Slightly faster Sunkens and or Creeps 3. Sprites bug 4. Archon/Dark Archon choice to High/Dark Templar 5. Scout 6. Nukes 7. Guardian floating 8. Queen Would be CRAZY risky: 1. ZvZ 2. Control Groups +12 I will not state my feelings but please DO change at least some small things. BW could use some fresh blood, and the all version will still be there. I doubt that changes could be so large that they can't be balanced via new maps or existing map changes. | ||
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Aylear
Norway3988 Posts
Give us an improved observer interface so that casting can be better, give us widescreen support so it looks and runs better on modern systems, and if you MUST you can improve the graphics. I would strongly advise against touching the sounds, because those are iconic for a reason. Oh, and just for me: If they spend some time making gorgeous new campaign cutscenes, I would be so happy. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 07 2016 01:31 Disregard wrote: As long as it doesn't turn out like AOE2 HD. Regardless of peoples opinions on Blizzards games, one thing I think everyone can agree on is that they are very polished. I would be very shocked if they released BW HD remake with the problems that aoe2hd had. It's why I like Blizzard games a lot (well sc1/2 and diablo  ). | ||
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castleeMg
Canada758 Posts
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Lazix
Australia378 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 07 2016 03:10 blade55555 wrote: Regardless of peoples opinions on Blizzards games, one thing I think everyone can agree on is that they are very polished. I would be very shocked if they released BW HD remake with the problems that aoe2hd had. It's why I like Blizzard games a lot (well sc1/2 and diablo ).Its like Halo MCC, except this will actually work | ||
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On August 07 2016 04:42 Ingvar wrote: If it means a need for rebalance - I would take a chance on it. You might, but I'm close to certain the top korean scene wont, and if they wont I wont. Keep the pathing, keep the exciting "stupid" scarabs, keep it all. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 07 2016 04:42 Ingvar wrote: If they are actually making it a remake, I hope they make SOME changes. Okay, I can live without MBS and more than 12 units in control group (though I'm not sure how much people would buy such a game). However, you just can't have shitty AI like goliaths and dragoons in a game in 2016. And scarabs, motherfucking scarabs. If it means a need for rebalance - I would take a chance on it. This indicates you don't know anything about retarded scrab AI. A good player can get 8/10 scrab to work while bad player can get 2/10 to work. Its also skills. | ||
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Espers
United Kingdom606 Posts
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Mistakes
United States1102 Posts
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Ingvar
Russian Federation421 Posts
On August 07 2016 05:01 Shinokuki wrote: This indicates you don't know anything about retarded scrab AI. A good player can get 8/10 scrab to work while bad player can get 2/10 to work. Its also skills. While it is skills, it is also bad game design. While SC:BW is one of the best games of all time, it isn't perfect. While I understand a natural fear of changing a game which last balance patch was in 2001, I don't take every single aspect of it as a religious dogma. And if there is a chance of making a game better, I don't see why I shouldn't welcome it. Pathing and overkill and limited control are essential for BW - there is no need to change it. Inability of a dragoon to walk down a ramp is not essential. I mean, some of Starcraft coding was shitty even for 1998 - compare it with AoE II which was released a year later; and code is not wine or whiskey, 18 years don't make it better. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 07 2016 05:47 Ingvar wrote: While it is skills, it is also bad game design. While SC:BW is one of the best games of all time, it isn't perfect. While I understand a natural fear of changing a game which last balance patch was in 2001, I don't take every single aspect of it as a religious dogma. And if there is a chance of making a game better, I don't see why I shouldn't welcome it. Pathing and overkill and limited control are essential for BW - there is no need to change it. Inability of a dragoon to walk down a ramp is not essential. I mean, some of Starcraft coding was shitty even for 1998 - compare it with AoE II which was released a year later; and code is not wine or whiskey, 18 years don't make it better. Yeah thats my point. don't change obviously important aspect of bw. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On August 07 2016 05:47 Ingvar wrote: While it is skills, it is also bad game design. While SC:BW is one of the best games of all time, it isn't perfect. While I understand a natural fear of changing a game which last balance patch was in 2001, I don't take every single aspect of it as a religious dogma. And if there is a chance of making a game better, I don't see why I shouldn't welcome it. Pathing and overkill and limited control are essential for BW - there is no need to change it. Inability of a dragoon to walk down a ramp is not essential. I mean, some of Starcraft coding was shitty even for 1998 - compare it with AoE II which was released a year later; and code is not wine or whiskey, 18 years don't make it better. @Ingvar, there are things that shouldn't be done because they are bad and there are things that are good but shouldn't be done because it can lead to a slippery slope argument. Now this is going to be an opinion thing of course because everyone has their own splits between bugs and features in Broodwar. If you use the reason of 'fixing the pathing makes it a better game because bad pathing doesn't anything to the game' for changing the AI, then how are you not able to justify other things like changing overkill and limited control? You could just as easily say 'removing 12 unit control limit makes it a better game because it is oppressive to new players.' I rather not even get into those arguments and only fix things that break the game like the sprite limit breaking valks, the color issues, hackers on West, obs on top of turrets breaking turrets etc. You might want to checkout Day[9]'s recent BW talk about how all these weird BW quirks lead to interesting playstyle consequences here: | ||
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brancy
2 Posts
Also i saw bw in bnet shop that theres an sc bw played with bnet acc so its probably gonna work. but i trust blizzard they wont screw it up | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
in 2014: I'm playing a lot of Hearthstone right now for reasons that have nothing to do with my opinion of SC2 in 2016: Here is why BW is better than SC2. | ||
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brancy
2 Posts
the question is what will happen with all those helpfull mods (like the mod editors e.g: scmdraft) if they make a small change in the engine/data none (or most) of the old maps wont work (and admit it there are a bunch of maps accumulated over 18 years | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 07 2016 04:42 Ingvar wrote: If they are actually making it a remake, I hope they make SOME changes. Okay, I can live without MBS and more than 12 units in control group (though I'm not sure how much people would buy such a game). However, you just can't have shitty AI like goliaths and dragoons in a game in 2016. And scarabs, motherfucking scarabs. If it means a need for rebalance - I would take a chance on it. Plz no. Dont change anything. Keep the old voice acting as well. Just update graphics plz. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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Templarfreak
United States39 Posts
On August 07 2016 04:58 ProMeTheus112 wrote: You know what would be nice, give more modability to Starcraft by extending the map editor and maybe giving access to some code so that we can make some mods to experiment with patching it ourselves. StarCraft GPTP and BWAPI are exactly this. Both of which expose a lot of BW's natives and make it much easier to code new functions. You still have to search through BW with a hex editor or RAM watcher to modify existing code, but you can add new code EZ-PZ. Burning Ground and StarCraft Revolution both heavily use GPTP while AI mods make a lot of use of BWAPI. | ||
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heronn
34 Posts
Next they should balance some totaly unused units like e.g.: - Scout: decreased cost to 250m 100g; - Ghost: Lockdown cost decreased to 75 energy and range increased to 10 (like ghost wep range); - Corsair: little increase web lenght. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 07 2016 05:47 Ingvar wrote: While it is skills, it is also bad game design. While SC:BW is one of the best games of all time, it isn't perfect. While I understand a natural fear of changing a game which last balance patch was in 2001, I don't take every single aspect of it as a religious dogma. And if there is a chance of making a game better, I don't see why I shouldn't welcome it. Pathing and overkill and limited control are essential for BW - there is no need to change it. Inability of a dragoon to walk down a ramp is not essential. I mean, some of Starcraft coding was shitty even for 1998 - compare it with AoE II which was released a year later; and code is not wine or whiskey, 18 years don't make it better. the central problem is: any change will affect balance in a major way. improve goon pathing? Big impact on racial balance in PvT and PvZ. improve scarab AI? Reavers might be OP after that. And im not even talking about changing a single unit stat. These flaws are surely no example of great game design, but have contributed their part to racial balance. "fix" them and racial balance will shift. And we don't need that. Racial balance is very good in BW, in fact better than Blizzard ever made it happen in Sc2 and they really tried hard there. If you don't understand why it's so impactful- play the game a lot and you'll notice. On August 07 2016 16:26 heronn wrote: Imo players should have possibility to select 24 "double units" like zergling. Next they should balance some totaly unused units like e.g.: - Scout: decreased cost to 250m 100g; - Ghost: Lockdown cost decreased to 75 energy and range increased to 10 (like ghost wep range); - Corsair: little increase web lenght. bigger selection groups for lings are just broken. The limit of control groups has to be considered as balance factor that inhibits crackling/swarm from being to powerful in the lategame. | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
On August 07 2016 07:43 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It'll also be very interesting if they change bw map editor so wide ramps didn't look so ugly. They should definitely update the official map editor to adopt many of the features from third party editors, such as a wider variety of ramps and better scripting. New tilesets would be great too. | ||
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On August 07 2016 16:26 heronn wrote: Imo players should have possibility to select 24 "double units" like zergling. Next they should balance some totaly unused units like e.g.: - Scout: decreased cost to 250m 100g; - Ghost: Lockdown cost decreased to 75 energy and range increased to 10 (like ghost wep range); - Corsair: little increase web lenght. If there is rebalancing, which I highly doubt, it would be done by the sc2 team most likely. Because of their 6 years track record of incompetence, this wouldnt be good for BW. If they "transfer" BW to their Heroes/SC2 engine which they love so much (even though it is shit), it also wouldnt be good for BW. If they dont touch the engine code (except the sprite limitation), and just add support for hotkeys customization and a 2D Graphic update and compatibility with modern OS, maybe even implementation into bnet 2 it would be amazing for BW. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
19.99 and up a bit pricey for my tastes | ||
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xboi209
United States1173 Posts
On August 07 2016 19:33 404AlphaSquad wrote: maybe even implementation into bnet 2 it would be amazing for BW. That's asking for everyone who plays on Fish and ICCup to not update. | ||
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endy
Switzerland8970 Posts
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
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404AlphaSquad
839 Posts
On August 07 2016 20:45 xboi209 wrote: That's asking for everyone who plays on Fish and ICCup to not update. Sure but, Matchmaking and beeing able to host without portforwarding is gold for me at least. Thats why I enjoy shieldbattery (even though it doesnt have Matchmaking yet). And tbh, we dont know yet if BW HD is gonna be free for BW owners or not anyways. | ||
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NoS-Craig
Australia3093 Posts
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classicyellow83
United States2393 Posts
On August 07 2016 21:58 404AlphaSquad wrote: Sure but, Matchmaking and beeing able to host without portforwarding is gold for me at least. Thats why I enjoy shieldbattery (even though it doesnt have Matchmaking yet). And tbh, we dont know yet if BW HD is gonna be free for BW owners or not anyways. It probably won't be and it shouldn't be. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
A true BW revival will occur if and only waves of youngsters in many countries around the world get interested in the game enough to play on a competitive level. We have the audience already - older 23-37 yearolds that played in their younger years. But I think BW to be revived properly would need not only the competitive youngsters, but their fellows from the same age to like to watch the game as well the very least. As it was the case when I was their age, I think nowadays youngsters (10-16yearolds) like to play the newest game with the best graphics out there, that looks the coolest and has a nice gameplay. My cousin, I remember some years ago asked whether I still play the game (BW) and he joked something along the lines of "it looks like it was painted by me" (i don't remember seeing him painting like ever so there's the slighest chance he made a huge compliment there lol) and he liked BW a lot, played 1v1/2v2s together back in the days and is one year older than me. Not that my cousin's view is representative enough, but my best guess without too much of research would be that youngsters prefer SC2's graphics over BW's. It looks "cooler" to them. Now if we can trick them with an HD version into liking it more and if Blizzard invested into a good research on the matter which proves the new HD version is accepted vastly better than the previous AND than even SC2, then there's a high chance true BW revival might occur outside of Korea. In Korea would be significantly easier in theory but with the rise of popularity of LOL and many other games in Korea, maybe it will be harder than expected. I like when old pros return to stream BW. But all we have is old korean faces returning until they go to the military. The number of brand new young chogosus in my eyes is limited to that team that Sonic formed that had Sharp as a coach. Bale, Bishop, Olympus and perhaps someone else I forgot. I only see Bale streaming from time to time and liquipedia has Olympus described as "a retired StarCraft progamer from South Korea who played Protoss". Maybe Scan can join in here with some description of the current level of youngsters (i don't consider Scan a new face fwiw). I doubt there's a single absolutely new face that can beat all former pros consistently. Even if Jiko was some new chogosu player (the chance for that is very low) - he and Bale won't revive BW alone in Korea. It would require much more IMHO. Maybe we should wait and see if Jaedong returns what would the impact be, but still ... | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Also I could live with a Scout buff. Just let it have full speed by default if nothing else. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
an overhaul that just addressed graphics and aspect ratio would be HUGE wins. All you have to do is NOT fuck it up, blizzard. | ||
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On August 08 2016 01:25 trutaCz wrote: You have SC2 with unlimited selection and BW with limited selection, if SC2 players want to play BW they have to learn it, simple as that o_o. It doesnt make sense to change the game because some guys cant handle the mechanics of BW.. I see all these guys at the gym benchpressing with like 4 plates on each side of the bar. I think that weight manufacturers should release lighter versions of those plates so I can do that too. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 08 2016 01:31 Dental Floss wrote: I see all these guys at the gym benchpressing with like 4 plates on each side of the bar. I think that weight manufacturers should release lighter versions of those plates so I can do that too. This is such a bad analogy though. If people don't have fun with the old mechanics then that's a problem. You want a game which people enjoy. At the same time i totally can see that all these limitations and bugs make bw what it is. The best solution therefore would be two modes, one with easier mechanics, the other bw as it is now. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On August 08 2016 01:25 trutaCz wrote: You have SC2 with unlimited selection and BW with limited selection, if SC2 players want to play BW they have to learn it, simple as that o_o. It doesnt make sense to change the game because some guys cant handle the mechanics of BW.. Remasters exist to entice new players to play classic games by pushing it towards today's standards. I wouldn't assume this is Blizzard giving the remaining BW core a nice charitable graphics update. If you take off your BW glasses and imagine what it would be like to play BW as an RTS player in 2016, I don't think you'd be stoked to be stuck with unit selections of 12, archaic pathing and an inability to select multiple buildings at once. Blizzard is trying to make a profit so I wouldn't be so sure that they're going to keep this purely at a graphics update. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 08 2016 02:02 Saechiis wrote: Remasters exist to entice new players to play classic games by pushing it towards today's standards. I wouldn't assume this is Blizzard giving the remaining BW core a nice charitable graphics update. If you take off your BW glasses and imagine what it would be like to play BW as an RTS player in 2016, I don't think you'd be stoked to be stuck with unit selections of 12, archaic pathing and an inability to select multiple buildings at once. I agree with all of that, BUT all these things make bw what it is. If you remove these aspects the chances are high that the game changes dramatically, probably for the worse (if we don't value more accessibility) | ||
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outscar
2832 Posts
On August 08 2016 01:42 The_Red_Viper wrote: This is such a bad analogy though. If people don't have fun with the old mechanics then that's a problem. You want a game which people enjoy. At the same time i totally can see that all these limitations and bugs make bw what it is. The best solution therefore would be two modes, one with easier mechanics, the other bw as it is now. If you really want to select all units there's a hack for it IIRC called Oblivion or EpicSauce, check them out SC2 boys. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 08 2016 02:08 trutaCz wrote: If you someday jump on my level with understanding both BW and SC2 as games, maybe you will understand that BW with the new mechanics would crush the game totally, cause all the magic of the game incomes from it. Why do you even speak about BW if you completely dont understand BW? Maybe you should actually address what is said. That might help to have a productive discussion about things. But sure we can also pretend that only your pov is meaningful and that your opinion is the final authority in this case. Don't post on a discussion forum though, you are wrong here. On topic: Sure these things make bw what it is (which i said multiple times btw) but it also makes bw less accessible which is a bad thing. In a perfect world you want a very accessible game which has enough depth and "magic" for the pro scene. BW quite clearly doesn't do that though. A potential solution would be to have different modes, an "easy" mode for people who don't want to fight the ui (YES the game would be different in this mode, maybe it would be still quite good though) and the current mode for all the people who play it like that for years or people who are into these limitations. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On August 08 2016 02:22 The_Red_Viper wrote: Maybe you should actually address what is said. That might help to have a productive discussion about things. But sure we can also pretend that only your pov is meaningful and that your opinion is the final authority in this case. Don't post on a discussion forum though, you are wrong here. On topic: Sure these things make bw what it is (which i said multiple times btw) but it also makes bw less accessible which is a bad thing. In a perfect world you want a very accessible game which has enough depth and "magic" for the pro scene. BW quite clearly doesn't do that though. A potential solution would be to have different modes, an "easy" mode for people who don't want to fight the ui (YES the game would be different in this mode, maybe it would be still quite good though) and the current mode for all the people who play it like that for years or people who are into these limitations. If you they implemented in something that wouldn't be ranked, like unranked, I could live with that. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
On August 08 2016 02:31 trutaCz wrote: Im not going to explain stuff for people who dont understand lol, if they want to argue about that its up to them. People who understand BW will understand that things which are being speaked here are not good for BW. Easiest mode exist its called : SC2. Even if SC2 wouldn't have auto mining, MBS, and unlimited selection it still would be very different from BW, and don't see why it would then still be called an "easier" version. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion! | ||
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Freezard
Sweden1010 Posts
On August 08 2016 01:20 Saechiis wrote: To me doing an update doesn't make much sense if they're going to keep the limited unit and building selection. Even if the small hardcore BW fanbase will love it, there's a lot more people who casually played BW and new players that might want to try an iconic game that would be totally put off by the archaic control and pathing. Makes total sense. Changing resolution already changes the game drastically, even if no other changes are made. Basically they should keep the original game with some updated resolution and bug fixes, and stuff like observer mode which shows minerals/gas/supply and an updated matchmaking (B.NET 2.0 makes sense). At least that's what I'm hoping for. I'm not against balance changes either, but it's a dangerous territory to go to. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
On August 08 2016 02:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: I shouldn't have expected that bw elitists finally are capable of actually discussing things as game design (especially in the context of modern gamers) My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion! Yes your bad for trying to discuss about things you have no knowledge | ||
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Sholip
Hungary422 Posts
The problem I see here is that they would have to revive a whole genre, not just a title. RTS's are just not really popular anymore, due to high entry barrier and steep learning curves. They are simply too hard, compared to MOBAs and FPS's (at least SC is). BW did "create" esports, but at the time, there were fewer alternatives. With the rise of MOBAs, mostly due to them being easier to learn, I would think, more and more people started playing them, instead or RTS games. The old RTS (and BW) fans, players, still remain, but few join them, as opposed to the more successful genres. SC2 was an attempt at renewal – it has beautiful graphics, better AI, very good pathing. These were inevitable criteria for a new game, things that held back lots of potential players from entering BW. SC2 has all this, and it is still nowhere compared to other genres' titles. Is it because SC2 is such a bad game? Unlikely. If they remaster BW in HD, it will be as nice from a potential player's perspective as SC2 is. Only it will be more mechanically demanding and harder to play, with restrictions like selection cap. Those who used to play BW a lot will welcome this for sure, but I fail to see how it will revitalize the whole scene. In other words: what does BW have that SC2 doesn't, to win over a substantial amount of players? How would an HD BW make the RTS genre more appealing to new players than SC2? | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
On August 08 2016 02:31 trutaCz wrote: Im not going to explain stuff for people who dont understand lol, if they want to argue about that its up to them. People who understand BW will understand that things which are being speaked here are not good for BW. Easiest mode exist its called : SC2. User was warned for this post And i am being warned for what? Did i BM? Did i provoke? I think i quoted it: "A potential solution would be to have different modes, an "easy" mode for people who don't want to fight the ui (YES the game would be different in this mode, maybe it would be still quite good though) and the current mode for all the people who play it like that for years or people who are into these limitations. " On August 08 2016 02:53 Sholip wrote: To be fair, I don't really understand Blizzard's goals with this. It seems they are kind of nostalgic about how BW used to be great but SC2 isn't anymore, and they think restoring the big old title to today's graphics standards will revive the whole scene? The problem I see here is that they would have to revive a whole genre, not just a title. RTS's are just not really popular anymore, due to high entry barrier and steep learning curves. They are simply too hard, compared to MOBAs and FPS's (at least SC is). BW did "create" esports, but at the time, there were fewer alternatives. With the rise of MOBAs, mostly due to them being easier to learn, I would think, more and more people started playing them, instead or RTS games. The old RTS (and BW) fans, players, still remain, but few join them, as opposed to the more successful genres. SC2 was an attempt at renewal – it has beautiful graphics, better AI, very good pathing. These were inevitable criteria for a new game, things that held back lots of potential players from entering BW. SC2 has all this, and it is still nowhere compared to other genres' titles. Is it because SC2 is such a bad game? Unlikely. If they remaster BW in HD, it will be as nice from a potential player's perspective as SC2 is. Only it will be more mechanically demanding and harder to play, with restrictions like selection cap. Those who used to play BW a lot will welcome this for sure, but I fail to see how it will revitalize the whole scene. In other words: what does BW have that SC2 doesn't, to win over a substantial amount of players? How would an HD BW make the RTS genre more appealing to new players than SC2? I dont think BW can be revitalized outside of korea, ever. I also think the target isnt about it | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
On August 08 2016 02:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: I shouldn't have expected that bw elitists finally are capable of actually discussing things as game design (especially in the context of modern gamers) My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion! It's really simple. Brood war wouldn't be brood war if you ask for things as multiple building selection and unlimited unit selection. This is as simple as one can put it. So there's no point in wanting to play brood war if you can't handle the UI limitations that come with it. If "modern gamers" are desperate for brood war with changes to the core gameplay they should petition blizzard to release BW 2.0 instead of BW HD. | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On August 08 2016 02:36 The_Red_Viper wrote: I shouldn't have expected that bw elitists finally are capable of actually discussing things as game design (especially in the context of modern gamers) My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion! So trutaCz is elitist and incapable of discussing game desing because he plays Sc2 and Bw both at high level. And this is the true problem. Most of who want to change Brood war have never truly practiced it in way that koreans and few foreingers have and then complain that it is not fun etc. I have never hit c-rank even at Iccup, but thats even more reason to appreciate the work thats needed to play like Flash or Jaedong. And for the dream scenario game with high skill celling and easy basic wont be made by hearthstone-sctoo- blizzard. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:08 B-royal wrote: It's really simple. Brood war wouldn't be brood war if you ask for things as multiple building selection and unlimited unit selection. This is as simple as one can put it. So there's no point in wanting to play brood war if you can't handle the UI limitations that come with it. If "modern gamers" are desperate for brood war with changes to the core gameplay they should petition blizzard to release BW 2.0 instead of BW HD. You guys are all so defensive. No-one asked for Blizzard to please tear apart BW and make it into SC2 so "us noobs" can play it. You're attacking a stance no-one took and it makes it really annoying to post anything in these regions. I simply brought up the point that Blizzard is a company, companies revolve around making money. How is Blizzard going to make money off of BW HD? By catering to the relatively small BW scene or by catering to more casual audiences? I'm using critical thinking to arrive at the possibility that Blizzard is not just going to update the graphics and leave it at that. Maybe respond to that logic rather than attacking perceived enemies of the BW faith. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
I would personally enjoy playing some BW, if UI modifications were done to it - it's a game that's quite different from SC2 and that makes it interesting. To make this viable however, the modifications basically need to come from Blizzard, because from someone as bad as myself, there needs to be a big playerbase enough to find players bad enough for me with a working matchmaking - and that's never gonna happen with any kind of "BW in SC2" mod. Thus, the idea of Blizzard offering, with the HD version, also a version with UI changes (unlimited selection, MBS, automining and no-derp pathfinding - while not changing other stuff), is quite compelling to me and I would easily pay money for that. How does that hurt anyone? I don't get it. So why are people even against it? | ||
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eviltomahawk
United States11133 Posts
Off the top of my head:
Almost none of these should affect gameplay. Some are already obtainable with plugins. Others just make the general game knowledge more accessible for new players without having to browse through manuals or websites. | ||
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Rea-Rea
United States42 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:27 opisska wrote: I don't get why BW fans are so closedminded about anything that has "BW" in the name. It's not that someone's gonna magically take your BW from you, when all the protections were broken decades ago and running a server is pretty easy. I would personally enjoy playing some BW, if UI modifications were done to it - it's a game that's quite different from SC2 and that makes it interesting. To make this viable however, the modifications basically need to come from Blizzard, because from someone as bad as myself, there needs to be a big playerbase enough to find players bad enough for me with a working matchmaking - and that's never gonna happen with any kind of "BW in SC2" mod. Thus, the idea of Blizzard offering, with the HD version, also a version with UI changes (unlimited selection, MBS, automining and no-derp pathfinding - while not changing other stuff), is quite compelling to me and I would easily pay money for that. How does that hurt anyone? I don't get it. So why are people even against it? The problem is the people who actually spent years getting to their skill level will see no point in trying any more. Basically, they worked way too hard for nothing. That's how they see it. When SC2 implemented auto-mining, I instantly had a bad taste in my mouth. Keeping in mind, it's a different game from Brood War and I went along with it and dealt with it. Trying to make Brood War have similar mechanics to SC2 (fixing the "limitations" of the engine, etc) is only going to destroy the high-skill player base and destroy any skill ceiling that ever existed. I would want the games to be different and stay different, not be the same. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:27 opisska wrote: How does that hurt anyone? I don't get it. So why are people even against it? Personally I'm rather open minded imagining BW being updated and even improved through both UI (even automining and maybe more) and bug fixes and even some balance changes (allowing more starting strategies for example), however people who completely skip playing it at all because of the UI I think you should try cause it's not so hard, I mean it's manageable, this game always had good controls its just a bit old but whatever... you will miss a lot more than just a good UI to beat a good player, and that's the true problem, it is hard to play anyone other than a good player nowadays because there are very very few players in a place like ICCup and most are pretty good or really good. Secondly most BW players distrust Blizzard entirely for good reasons so it's an extra reason for refusing or speaking against changes. Blizzard is a pretty shit company now, they grind stuff for max money, so even I am not comfortable with changes they might come up with especially in the gameplay department but even art... | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:43 eviltomahawk wrote: There are a lot of quality of life improvements that can be made to BW without even touching core mechanics like single building selection, mediocre pathfinding, lack of auto-mine, lack of smart casting, 12 unit selection limit, hotkeys, and such. Off the top of my head:
Almost none of these should affect gameplay. Some are already obtainable with plugins. Others just make the general game knowledge more accessible for new players without having to browse through manuals or websites. I agree with this post! Also, there is no scenario where blizz makes some changes and it kills BW. The game is too good to be killable and it will always be around. Maybe that means pros just play "classic" version, but it definitely will be around. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote: I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. but it's not like another balance doesn't exist if the UI changed. it's a matter of who is interested in that or not, and if the context is good for experimenting with that or not. Also seriously, players who were already great with a certain balance and system will still be great if changes were made, as long as those changes aren't bad (dumb down the game). With the engine of starcraft with collision and pathing (all the good part of it) there will always be room for great control and multitasking no matter how much easier it is made, even with unlimited selection, MBS or automine and removing choke pathing difficulties or what. (imo since blizzard has control of it, the context is bad until they have proven themselves again otherwise and BW is not where it should be risked that they prove themselves for sure T_T) | ||
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:52 ProMeTheus112 wrote: but it's not like another balance doesn't exist if the UI changed. it's a matter of who is interested in that or not, and if the context is good for experimenting with that or not. If the UI gets changed to allow even small changes or something huge like MBS only amateurs will play that version and the pro scene will never use anything except the classic BW client. Seriously, they won't touch it. Flash told mike morhaime that it was the most complete game ever, and that means that it doesnt need that kind of new feature, and I beliewe that this is the view of the entire pro scene. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:52 ProMeTheus112 wrote: but it's not like another balance doesn't exist if the UI changed. it's a matter of who is interested in that or not, and if the context is good for experimenting with that or not. Also seriously, players who were already great with a certain balance and system will still be great if changes were made, as long as those changes aren't bad (dumb down the game). With the engine of starcraft with collision and pathing (all the good part of it) there will always be room for great control and multitasking no matter how much easier it is made, even with unlimited selection, MBS or automine and removing choke pathing difficulties or what. (imo since blizzard has control of it, the context is bad until they have proven themselves again otherwise and BW is not where it should be risked that they prove themselves for sure T_T) You don't understand. If you want to understand visit korean bw server or go to afreeca, and talk with the people. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
fine by me tbh, don't rly want blizzard to touch, they just don't understand RTS any longer lol trutacz explain to me why you think I don't understand because I think I understand pretty good^^ ok I haven't talked to the koreans very much but if it's a context thing, whatever I think you are right, the context is bad for change because of blizzard and fear that it could destabilize the pro scene / established scene are well founded I guess; I just disagree that it is not possible to improve the game | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote: I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:58 ProMeTheus112 wrote: yeah that's the situation we're in it seems. fine by me tbh, don't rly want blizzard to touch, they just don't understand RTS any longer lol trutacz explain to me why you think I don't understand because I think I understand pretty good^^ ok I haven't talked to the koreans very much but if it's a context thing, whatever I think you are right, the context is bad for change because of blizzard and fear that it could destabilize the pro scene / established scene are well founded I guess; I just disagree that it is not possible to improve the game "its a matter of who is interested in that or not" - Broodwar is 99% in Korea 1% in Europe, if that changes even to 80-20, koreans are not interested in touching it game in terms of balance, ever. "context is good for experimenting with that or not." - Balancing BW took years, guess if it's worth to wreck it all Also seriously, players who were already great with a certain balance and system will still be great if changes were made, as long as those changes aren't bad (dumb down the game) - Multiple selection etc, it dumbs down THIS game. it may not dumb down the any other old game. On August 08 2016 04:03 Saechiis wrote: Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction. Have you considered the possbility that i mentioned where heart of broodwar belongs?. I can assure you that if someday that kind of remaster will see the daylight, noone will ever touch it except 2-5%. If you think more people would play that kind of game instead of "bw classic" you're just naive. | ||
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:03 Saechiis wrote: Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction. You might as well say that nintendo should patch out wavedashing in melee. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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FFGenerations
7088 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote: imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations. They would be right. BW is a physical game of dexterity, That's what makes it fun. It's a physical sport that is so demanding that players get injured playing it. If you "fix" the physicality it requires you've broken what makes it great. Effort having 300 APM for 40 minutes is why the game is so popular and deep. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote: imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations. It's not like the pathing or other things. May i ask you, have you ever played broodwar? If yes, for how long | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
but whatever seriously I'm on your side don't trust blizzard to change it lol............. I think the proper way would be to test this ourselves with an expanded map editor make mods and test stuff... if it really is better people might start to play these mods and voila.. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:15 trutaCz wrote: May i ask you, have you ever played broodwar? If yes, for how long yaya I don't like to play the game of medals I'm a good player very experienced thousands of hours since like 2000 I think it's more interesting if you argue or explain not ask me if I'm TOP10 player like XXXX, a good player may understand the game just as well as a top player, like some casters for example. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:09 Dental Floss wrote: You might as well say that nintendo should patch out wavedashing in melee. How hard is for you to grasp that I'm not saying Blizzard SHOULD change BW, but rather that it is a legitimate possibility given their inclination towards things that make them money. I see BW zealots fighting off ghosts whilst the overlord goes over their heads and treats the kids to MBS. | ||
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trutaCz
Poland686 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote: yaya I don't like to play the game of medals I'm a good player very experienced thousands of hours since like 2000 I think it's more interesting if you argue or explain not ask me if I'm TOP10 player like XXXX, a good player may understand the game just as well as a top player, like some casters for example. So can you answer or not, i don't understand what have you written. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:22 Saechiis wrote: How hard is for you to grasp that I'm not saying Blizzard SHOULD change BW, but rather that it is a legitimate possibility given their inclination towards things that make them money. You asked "why would they not do it". Don't ask if you don't want the answer! | ||
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
Matchmaking, LAN latency, automated tournaments and such would be a nice plus. Most changes to actual game would be big red minus, this is supposed to be a restoration of old title and not butchering it. There's already SC2 for all that modern stuff which works well with mission packs and whatnot, that's what makes money for them. Outside of nostalgia for old campaigns and the actual competitive play, there's no point in getting BW. Hopefully it stays true and is a bone thrown to old farts, not some lousy cashgrab for newer generations. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:31 Dental Floss wrote: You asked "why would they not do it". Don't ask if you don't want the answer! You might as well say that Obama is African. + Show Spoiler + See how this isn't an argument or an answer, just kind of a random oneliner that does nothing but confuse and divert the discussion into irrational and pointless territory. I'm out, we'll see what Blizzard wants to do with their game. | ||
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maybenexttime
Poland5496 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote: imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations. It's not like the pathing or other things. It does involve decision making. To put it in simple terms: player's attention is a resource in BW - much more so than in SC2. Having more bases results in having to allocate your attention to more places due to the lack of auto-mining and MBS. It works as an inherent come-back facilitating mechanism. It makes people who have more bases to manage more prone to drops or their army getting ambushed. In SC2 it is much easier to macro remotely, while paying most of one's attention to one's army. | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On August 08 2016 04:58 maybenexttime wrote: It does involve decision making. To put it in simple terms: player's attention is a resource in BW - much more so than in SC2. Having more bases results in having to allocate your attention to more places due to the lack of auto-mining and MBS. It works as an inherent come-back facilitating mechanism. It makes people who have more bases to manage more prone to drops or their army getting ambushed. In SC2 it is much easier to macro remotely, while paying most of one's attention to one's army. I agree with what you said but I think it's minor and there would still be tons to do, in fact I think giving some extra freedom to players in bw in general would be beneficial to anyone even a pro or really fast player cause you can never really do or see everything. It can't really be proven with words though but testing.. SC2 has a lot more differences that makes it easier to pay attention to your army, some of them are that your army is often in just one spot and engagements happen over a shorter time, smaller area, less areas at a time. (Yet the game still revolves highly around attention-traps in part due to the high volatility you need to constantly be careful about.) So that adding automine / MBS to BW would not nearly place it to the level of SC2 in terms of multitasking and decision making issues. A good player would just be spending more time doing more precise stuff with their units, for example. While a less experienced / slower player would struggle less to make their macro relevant to their tactics & strategy. That's my opinion anyway! | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
So it doesn't make any sense at all for me to try to expand towards casual players. What even is your definition of a casual player? Have you ever talked to an average gamer? Even they think starcraft 2 (!) is way too hard for them and too stressful. Is this your target audience? Or maybe, it makes more sense to keep the gameplay exactly the same and only consider cosmetic changes, and improvements to the platform such as bnet. And by doing this, they could if all goes to plan, profit a lot if the entire korean scene switches over. | ||
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
If they want BW units with SC2 graphics etc. there's already handful of mods for that in SC2. There's very little reason to remake the game in very different form, there's more than just a foundation in old tilesets, units, stats. | ||
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Crisium
United States1618 Posts
Let custom have complete and utter customization so you can only choose the shortcuts you want for you are your buddy to play. | ||
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tumejoramigo
33 Posts
1)Make the game for free (This is why LoL is so popular): That will put starcraft where it should be, in the top games played. 2)Pay for skins and animations only (Like more or less blood, sounds, voices): Blizzard need to make money of this, small payments is the true call here. Again, like LoL. 3)Dont ever touch the units and try to "Balance" de game: Dont touch the game, leave it as is or you will destroy it. 4)Dont make Match making automatic: 2v2 3v3 games are very good, automatic game search will destroy this. I dont have time for explain all this, i had been playing sc1 from 1999 Blizzard should hire members of this forum, should hire tasteless, artosis, and fired actual sc2 and sc1 managers, sorry. Blizzard must not let some young fu-c-ker that just came out of University manage this art game. And please let Koreans elevate Starcraft, they are the executors and masters. Regards, | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On August 08 2016 03:55 Dental Floss wrote: If the UI gets changed to allow even small changes or something huge like MBS only amateurs will play that version and the pro scene will never use anything except the classic BW client. Seriously, they won't touch it. Flash told mike morhaime that it was the most complete game ever, and that means that it doesnt need that kind of new feature, and I beliewe that this is the view of the entire pro scene. Just putting this out there but there is far more money in making the game accessible to new players than improving it for pros.I'm betting on blizz following the money.They've already said they will "improve the UI", I'm guessing that means more than a reskin. | ||
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
On August 08 2016 11:04 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Just putting this out there but there is far more money in making the game accessible to new players than improving it for pros.I'm betting on blizz following the money.They've already said they will "improve the UI", I'm guessing that means more than a reskin. I really feel like Blizzard's main motivation for this is the fact that Brood War is borderline unplayable for most people. They still have the game for sale on their shop, and when people buy it they can't play it. I actually suspect this work they're doing is motivated by a serious influx of support tickets from angry customers demanding refunds for a game that is hugely popular and widely talked about, which after downloading, couldn't get to work properly. That's pretty embarrassing for Blizzard, and so I think they just want a game that people can reliably download and play legitimately. It's the least they can do. I don't see them changing things like unit selection limit - can you imagine Jaedong's mutas? Yikes. The mentioned "UI Improvements" could well relate only to in-game lobby and battle.net. I guess we just have to wait and see. | ||
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trifecta
United States6795 Posts
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riotjune
United States3392 Posts
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Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
The remastered version will have a new server and new players will start out there. But I doubt anything will change for the competitive BW scene as well as the private servers like fish and ICCUP. The "worst" that can happen to the current scene is some new players want to play more competitive and switch to the original BW version. In AoE2 it is like this, the most competitive players use a private platform and play with the old version while the newer players play the HD version over steam. | ||
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HaN-
France1919 Posts
On August 08 2016 11:16 prOxi.swAMi wrote: I really feel like Blizzard's main motivation for this is the fact that Brood War is borderline unplayable for most people. They still have the game for sale on their shop, and when people buy it they can't play it. I actually suspect this work they're doing is motivated by a serious influx of support tickets from angry customers demanding refunds for a game that is hugely popular and widely talked about, which after downloading, couldn't get to work properly. That's pretty embarrassing for Blizzard, and so I think they just want a game that people can reliably download and play legitimately. It's the least they can do. I don't see them changing things like unit selection limit - can you imagine Jaedong's mutas? Yikes. The mentioned "UI Improvements" could well relate only to in-game lobby and battle.net. I guess we just have to wait and see. Yeah I think you are spot on. People are over reacting, Blizzard won't touch the gameplay at all, they are sometimes dumb but not this dumb. What might be a problem though is stuff that they would not foresee like improving the graphics causing to change the sprites sizes and therefore affecting gameplay. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 08 2016 21:03 HaN- wrote: Yeah I think you are spot on. People are over reacting, Blizzard won't touch the gameplay at all, they are sometimes dumb but not this dumb. What might be a problem though is stuff that they would not foresee like improving the graphics causing to change the sprites sizes and therefore affecting gameplay. I don't see any change in sprites affecting gameplay other than valkyries won't bug out. Which is something good to fix I guess. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 08 2016 08:12 tumejoramigo wrote: If this is true they sould (Please Blizzard listen to me): 1)Make the game for free (This is why LoL is so popular): That will put starcraft where it should be, in the top games played. 2)Pay for skins and animations only (Like more or less blood, sounds, voices): Blizzard need to make money of this, small payments is the true call here. Again, like LoL. 3)Dont ever touch the units and try to "Balance" de game: Dont touch the game, leave it as is or you will destroy it. 4)Dont make Match making automatic: 2v2 3v3 games are very good, automatic game search will destroy this. I dont have time for explain all this, i had been playing sc1 from 1999 Blizzard should hire members of this forum, should hire tasteless, artosis, and fired actual sc2 and sc1 managers, sorry. Blizzard must not let some young fu-c-ker that just came out of University manage this art game. And please let Koreans elevate Starcraft, they are the executors and masters. Regards, 1. Pointless as the game is easy to pirate anyway 2. Nope. 3. Yep except for making units not glitch like valkyries and the sprite limit. 4. Don't know. Yes for people from these forums. No for Artosis and Tasteless Absolutely fucking no for Koreans to elevate StarCraft. They QQ harder than foreigners but luckily since we don't pay attention due to language differences we don't notice that. Edit: Is it me or the mod made the note for the wrong thread? Most of the SC2 vs BW is on the BW esport thread. | ||
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mca64Launcher_
Poland629 Posts
On August 08 2016 05:14 B-royal wrote: They are planning on releasing a 1.17 patch, how are they going to cash in on this? Maybe I'm missing something. Or maybe this indicates that they're just interested in supporting one of their legacy games as it is one the games that put blizzard on the map. People have been supporting this game for almost 2 decades (the amount of games with a similar lifespan while still being competitive and having tournaments for it can be counted on 1 hand). As a company this is something you can put some effort in without planning on making a "lot of cash". So it doesn't make any sense at all for me to try to expand towards casual players. What even is your definition of a casual player? Have you ever talked to an average gamer? Even they think starcraft 2 (!) is way too hard for them and too stressful. Is this your target audience? Or maybe, it makes more sense to keep the gameplay exactly the same and only consider cosmetic changes, and improvements to the platform such as bnet. And by doing this, they could if all goes to plan, profit a lot if the entire korean scene switches over. Itp easy. Blizzard is still selling sc bw but you cant run it flawless on modern Windows. They selling bugged software untill 1.17 patch | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://media-hearth.cursecdn.com/avatars/299/747/636060325387833109.png) | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 08 2016 20:08 Cryoc wrote: I don't think this HD remastered version will affect the current scene much. For me this will likely go the same way as it did with Age of Empires 2. They will release an HD version with maybe MBS, automining etc. and use the Battle.net 2.0. The resolution change itself is already a big change in terms of gameplay as you will see half the map on one screen so additional UI changes don't matter much anyway and are more likely. The remastered version will have a new server and new players will start out there. But I doubt anything will change for the competitive BW scene as well as the private servers like fish and ICCUP. The "worst" that can happen to the current scene is some new players want to play more competitive and switch to the original BW version. In AoE2 it is like this, the most competitive players use a private platform and play with the old version while the newer players play the HD version over steam. yeah it could be that way, but we can't say for sure i guess. It depends a lot on how much the gameplay is affected by the upcoming UI changes. IF the majority of us (hardcore gamers) get the impression, it's to far off from "original BW" it will be likely as you depicted, yes. But IF the gameplay is very very close to "original BW" i can see many people switching over just to have a bigger playerbase. It very much depends on the end product. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 08 2016 21:03 HaN- wrote: Yeah I think you are spot on. People are over reacting, Blizzard won't touch the gameplay at all, they are sometimes dumb but not this dumb. What might be a problem though is stuff that they would not foresee like improving the graphics causing to change the sprites sizes and therefore affecting gameplay. I dunno...they did think having kerrigan consume the essence of good guy cthulu to become flaming angel kerrigan was a good idea. | ||
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Assault_1
Canada1950 Posts
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pundurs
Latvia38 Posts
EDIT: To specify i just hope they update texture resolution and that's it. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
On August 09 2016 02:58 pundurs wrote: Hopeful, that they won't make them cartoonish like all the new blizzard titles. IMO a big part of starcraft 1 is the dark and gloomy atmosphere. EDIT: To specify i just hope they update texture resolution and that's it. For sure, the stark comparison of the floating disembodied hand in Arcturus' speech cutscene vs the childish opening to MoP from WoW or Angel Kerrigan from Legacy is pretty silly... they should revert to that old style. | ||
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Clbull
United Kingdom1439 Posts
On August 08 2016 14:24 trifecta wrote: changing things like 12 selection and single building selection would be like taking out dribbling rules in basketball or no-hands rules in soccer or erasing the lines on a tennis court etc etc. it would make things easier for the pro players and then quality of play will go up right? they're just outdated rules that make it harder for new players to start right? haha The most I'd change is this:
I'd keep the 12 unit selection limits of BW, although I'd probably extend the selection limit to include buildings as well (in Brood War at the moment, you cannot have more than one building selected), so that unit production can be managed through control groups like in SC2 rather than with camera hotkeys and building click/button spam. | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
[*]Add automining. Every single RTS has it, and adding it to BW will merely remove redundant actions rather than drastically alter the balance of the game. It would affect how much better players can set themselves apart, macro is the most important aspect of BW. Even the top progamers have idle scv here and there, so auto mining would be impactful. Also a good split can give you a small advantage right at the start. Im not in favor of cutting things that give players means to show skil and good mechanics in the game. [/QUOTE] | ||
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
On August 09 2016 13:15 Clbull wrote: Lurkers can Hold Position whilst burrowed by default. For those uninformed, Lurkers can only do this in the game whilst selected alongside an Overlord. This is one of the few exploits that is actually legal in tournaments due to how essential Lurker control is to the Zerg metagame. Um that's actually not the way to do that... | ||
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riotjune
United States3392 Posts
On August 09 2016 13:15 Clbull wrote: The most I'd change is this:
I'd keep the 12 unit selection limits of BW, although I'd probably extend the selection limit to include buildings as well (in Brood War at the moment, you cannot have more than one building selected), so that unit production can be managed through control groups like in SC2 rather than with camera hotkeys and building click/button spam. I'm gonna have to go with trifecta and Cele on this one and keep everything as is for now. Attention is a resource that can be improved. No automine/no mbs gives better players the opportunity to tighten their build and squeeze out every small advantage (those extra minerals/seconds really add up, especially on close spawns) over sloppy players who were negligent in the early game, and is something that can be practiced. Getting up to 12+ workers with no lapses in eco/timing should be something that should be worked towards, not taken for granted imo. Once you have the basics/foundation down, time to start working on other things. These might seem like arbitrary limitations due to an outdated gui, but even real life sports have arbitrary limitations/rules to them, whether it's to make the game interesting or set apart good players from the great. If you want a story excuse why only 12 unit limit selection, Blizzard should just say commanders can only micro 12 at a time because it doesn't lose speed, having more would clog up the com channels or delay commands so they don't do it that way. Telling a 12-man squad unit directly what to do is always faster than commanding an entire brigade anyway due to orders being transferred down the chain of command (slowly). And Blizzard should make that canon, solved. Now 12 unit limit selection is more palatable for the uninitiated. The same bs could probably be said for buildings and no mbs I guess Can't really come up with one for no automine, except maybe workers are lazy and always trying to find an opportunity to sham (just look at them all standing there having a cig when the minerals are mined out), unless the general (you) tells them directly to get off their ass. If you're trying to crush interceptors with your cc, you probably already losing anyway. Allied mines is something I would like to do in melee games, let the tourneys sanction that if they want. Plus Nada saved the world from the devil using this trick, otherwise everything as we know it would've already ended. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Disregard
China10252 Posts
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GrandSmurf
Netherlands462 Posts
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
Can we have a mega thread for BW vs SC2? | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 09 2016 16:46 Wrath wrote: The notification on top of the thread made me think... Can we have a mega thread for BW vs SC2? no | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 09 2016 16:46 Wrath wrote: The notification on top of the thread made me think... Can we have a mega thread for BW vs SC2? yeah its called the ABL | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 09 2016 16:55 lichter wrote: anyway we had a lunch time talk with the devs about definitely doing this instead of some other thing, so you'd better thank me, wax, monk and heyoka this as the BW HD remake? Also, what is the "some other thing"? Thank you litcher, thank you monk. And thank you heyoka. | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
i dunno if they will 100% do it yet and how, but i know for sure they at least want to do it and want to know what the community would like | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On August 09 2016 13:15 Clbull wrote: The most I'd change is this:
I'd keep the 12 unit selection limits of BW, although I'd probably extend the selection limit to include buildings as well (in Brood War at the moment, you cannot have more than one building selected), so that unit production can be managed through control groups like in SC2 rather than with camera hotkeys and building click/button spam. Nope, please no MBS, PEASE... | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:09 lichter wrote: they asked us what the community would want and we agreed that bwhd was the right idea i dunno if they will 100% do it yet and how, but i know for sure they at least want to do it and want to know what the community would like Great, now we know who can we conveniently blame for anything Blizzard does and we don't like it | ||
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lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:12 opisska wrote: Great, now we know who can we conveniently blame for anything Blizzard does and we don't like it they didn't get into the details of the game itself yet just the concept, but i expect them to involve the community a lot if or when it happens | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:14 lichter wrote: they didn't get into the details of the game itself yet just the concept, but i expect them to involve the community a lot if or when it happens That makes sense. I expect everything will be revealed on 4th of September after the ASL finals. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:14 lichter wrote: they didn't get into the details of the game itself yet just the concept, but i expect them to involve the community a lot if or when it happens May as well make two different versions. Only way to keep the SC community happy. | ||
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Thouhastmail
Korea (North)876 Posts
On August 09 2016 16:46 Wrath wrote: The notification on top of the thread made me think... Can we have a mega thread for BW vs SC2? Sounds funny to me, it wont happen tho. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16836 Posts
Brood War doesn't need anything but a few fixes to shit like valks. Change yourself for the game, don't change the game to suit your needs. That's selfish. | ||
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KameZerg
Sweden1757 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:21 Wintex wrote: Team liquid is literally the only place where people start slinging shit instead of being happy a game developer does something, and there's never any faith in anything called competency. Be happy guys! Brood War doesn't need anything but a few fixes to shit like valks. Change yourself for the game, don't change the game to suit your needs. That's selfish. Where the heck do you see people asking for game to change to suit us here? I don't see them here but mostly on Reddit. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:20 Thouhastmail wrote: Sounds funny to me, it wont happen tho. Yep, it would be super fun to shit post on each other. I believe it will generate more fun than the ABL thread. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:21 Wintex wrote: Team liquid is literally the only place where people start slinging shit instead of being happy a game developer does something, and there's never any faith in anything called competency. Be happy guys! Brood War doesn't need anything but a few fixes to shit like valks. Change yourself for the game, don't change the game to suit your needs. That's selfish. It's selfish to want a software code to suit my wishes instead of the opposite? Really? Don't you think that this BW worship is getting a little bit ridiculous? It's a piece of software, not a living deity. Not that the first half of your post is any better - the strategy to call any other opinion than yours "slinging shit" is a well-known one used often to stop any discussion that you don't like. It doesn't really give you the high position you are imagining. If you look at the thread, there isn't very much negativity, there are just two main groups of people who have different wishes. That's kind of what you would expect from a society with a plurality of thought, right? Personally, I think that making two versions is what Blizzard actually should do and it would be great. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: nah two versions would be confusing, why not make an actually good product that appeals to everyone.I know its hard but I know devs in blizzard are pretty passionate. I think it's basically impossible is why. You have the die hard BW fans, but if you give them what you want I really don't think the game will attract any new players. And if they try to modernize it at all it will upset all of the old BW players, as shown in this thread. And i'd love to be wrong. I'll be playing it either way, if it's just new graphics or with some other changes. | ||
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Wintex
Norway16836 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:29 opisska wrote: It's selfish to want a software code to suit my wishes instead of the opposite? Really? Don't you think that this BW worship is getting a little bit ridiculous? It's a piece of software, not a living deity. Not that the first half of your post is any better - the strategy to call any other opinion than yours "slinging shit" is a well-known one used often to stop any discussion that you don't like. It doesn't really give you the high position you are imagining. If you look at the thread, there isn't very much negativity, there are just two main groups of people who have different wishes. That's kind of what you would expect from a society with a plurality of thought, right? Personally, I think that making two versions is what Blizzard actually should do and it would be great. Ok dude you need to calm down. It's not about it being a living deity or whatever. BW is history, and the game still has loads of depth that can be poked at. Two versions just divides the community. Better to just create an official custom game then titled BW with supporting wheels. Which I still think serves little purpose. I don't understand why this game needs some of the changes talked about when there are so many games in this day and age. I mean honestly... LOTV, even as the expansion with least focus on macro mechanics, won't pull the masses people want it to pull. BW is known by many and still played by a few, and the risks of changing the good formula you have only risks the relationship people have to the game already. If you really think the stuff you say in the middle part of your post, ok dude. I meant that people really doubt Blizzard unbelievably much, and it harms the good vibe that we might be getting a remaster. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:43 Phredxor wrote: I think it's basically impossible is why. You have the die hard BW fans, but if you give them what you want I really don't think the game will attract any new players. And if they try to modernize it at all it will upset all of the old BW players, as shown in this thread. if they're not changing balance(more or less confirmed) then they're not "modernizing" it, limited unit selection and no MBS were intentionally design decisions, changes to that would cause huge ramifications, it'd be nice if people didn't ignore this fact. | ||
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Miragee
8470 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: nah two versions would be confusing, why not make an actually good product that appeals to everyone.I know its hard but I know devs in blizzard are pretty passionate. That's something Blizzard and most major companies tried to do over the last decade and failed miserably at. You just can't make a product that appeals to everyone. And if you try to make one it's most likely going to suck badly. No, they need to make a good product for once and not one that appeals to a large audience. Period. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:29 opisska wrote: It's selfish to want a software code to suit my wishes instead of the opposite? Really? Don't you think that this BW worship is getting a little bit ridiculous? It's a piece of software, not a living deity. So people from the SC2 forum come here and say that BW worship is getting ridiculous... It's like an atheist going to a church and saying that this Jesus worship is getting ridiculous Don't you think this is ridiculous? | ||
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Wintex
Norway16836 Posts
On August 09 2016 18:03 Miragee wrote: That's something Blizzard and most major companies tried to do over the last decade and failed miserably at. You just can't make a product that appeals to everyone. And if you try to make one it's most likely going to suck badly. No, they need to make a good product for once and not one that appeals to a large audience. Period. Pretty much this is why I don't want those QoL changes. The game is amazing. It has a following. New nerds from the West will come as long as the graphics are nice. Changes will just make it different and harms what Brood War is. If you don't want the game as it is, maybe you've just outgrown it or whatever. The 12 unit selection cap was archaic ever since it was introduced, but it allowed for a depth not seen again in games, through allowing a lot of the Zerg arsenal to be kept in check from the physical requirements. MBS also reduces the total awe you have for the professionals with amazing macro. Pathfinding and stuff being suboptimal creates a battle where the amount of attention to detail actually matters at the micro level. I mean. Archery in the Olympics is blessed with new tools and the bows are more amazing than ever, but the pure mechanics of the sport are the same. | ||
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duke91
Germany1458 Posts
So what's the point in introducing QoL changes when you don't go allin and change everything else, including SC2 like graphics? Also it would make BW veterans not even consider buying BW HD since as you know, any huge QoL changes would not make it feel like BW at all. It's stupid that somehow Broodwar(!) should change in order to pamper to SC2 people. You have your game. Play SC2 and leave BW alone. | ||
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4329 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:25 ICanFlyLow wrote: Yes those ppl asking for mbs and auto will prolly pick up the game and play a max of 1 or 2 weeks then ditch it and forget about it. Not because of the implemented features but cuz most of them are not bw players to begin with. OK, but maybe blizzard doesn't care if they play the game for 1 week or 5 years as long as they actually buy the game. It's about getting people to buy the game, you can bring in far more new players by bringing in new features like MBS. | ||
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Phredxor
New Zealand15076 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:48 BLinD-RawR wrote: if they're not changing balance(more or less confirmed) then they're not "modernizing" it, limited unit selection and no MBS were intentionally design decisions, changes to that would cause huge ramifications, it'd be nice if people didn't ignore this fact. I'm well aware of that. I'm just saying that it's not gonna attract new players or anything with new graphics. | ||
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egrimm
Poland1199 Posts
On August 09 2016 17:43 Phredxor wrote: I think it's basically impossible is why. You have the die hard BW fans, but if you give them what you want I really don't think the game will attract any new players. And if they try to modernize it at all it will upset all of the old BW players, as shown in this thread. And i'd love to be wrong. I'll be playing it either way, if it's just new graphics or with some other changes. Yeah I also feel this way. Any change to actual game will make hc BW fans unhappy, being it changing max resolution to HD, polishing textures, removing some bugs/quirks, improving AI and pathing or updating UI and I didn't even mentioned more controversial stuff like unlimited selection or MBS. On the other hand not changing anything in gameplay will not result in any significant playerbase growth I fear. That's way I also would like to see 2 "versions": 1. "Oldschool" where no gameplay is changed, only added support for new OSes, bn2 ladder/matchmaking and cross game chat, and maybe fixed some obvious bugs (discussed with community) 2. "Newshool" with highly modifiable features like high-res support, new textures, improved AI and pathing, updated and customizable UI or even automining, unlimited selection or MBS. Pros and hardcore fans would play first version. New players, casuals etc would play the second version customized for theirs needs. | ||
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trifecta
United States6795 Posts
There's already a modern role model for a remaster of a game of similar circumstances: Dota 2. Valve's original goal was to replicate Dota1 as faithfully as possible in a new engine and client and for the most part succeeded. The vast majority of the awkward and "annoying" and "quirky" mechanics in Dota 1 were ported over to the "new" game, and while most Dota1 players switched, there are still people who find that it's not exact enough of a port. However, relatively recently, the main developer of Dota stopped updating the Warcraft custom map to maintain parity with Dota2. After that point (Version 6.83 released last year), Dota 2 was no longer just a port but its own game. In contrast to BW, Dota1/2 was in continuous development, and only now, some of those old ported quirks are being ironed out in the "new" post-port game. I argue that these changes are justified in Dota 2 for this reason and it is also the reason why a BW remaster should not change the original design, warts and all (within practical limits). It defeats the whole purpose to release a remaster of a game that never existed (i.e. BW with MBS etc). As for new players etc, these arguments are already pointless. SC2 has modern UI, control, pathfinding etc and new/casual players still find it too difficult and intimidating to play. RTS as a genre needs way more change and innovation if you want to attract and retain those new/casual players similar to how League or HOTS or dozens of alternatives adapted the Dota design without many of the old/difficult/weird mechanics. | ||
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NeonFlare
Finland1307 Posts
On August 09 2016 18:28 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: OK, but maybe blizzard doesn't care if they play the game for 1 week or 5 years as long as they actually buy the game. It's about getting people to buy the game, you can bring in far more new players by bringing in new features like MBS. Surely it would be easier to just cash in with a multiplayer mod/campaign remake (sell as mission pack or something) within SC2 than go on your way to remake BW for the sake of cashing in new players. SC2 already has modern graphics and all the QoL built within, why would they put the effor to fight against ancient game engine or rework everything instead? | ||
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Krieg1
14 Posts
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
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DracoVolantus
Poland231 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2260 Posts
On August 09 2016 22:29 Dental Floss wrote: They already remade BW with better resolution, MBS, tons of UI improvements, and new balance. It's called SC2, I heard it's a good game you guys should go play it if that sounds like fun. Ok, we all had good laugh already, now lets get back to serious discussion. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 09 2016 22:32 DracoVolantus wrote: sc2 is disgrace to human race, go to sc2 forum. Do not trigger the mods... | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On August 09 2016 20:57 trifecta wrote: BW did not receive any gameplay, engine/UI or control changes for over 15 years. Given this development inactivity, it's more informative to treat BW's "quirks" "annoyances" and "bugs" as core rules and features of the game rather than malleable design decisions. This perspective is especially relevant since the designers and programmers of BW are either not at Blizzard anymore or have moved on to upper management, and a vibrant community and competitive scene built itself around this static game design. Blizzard has already done a modern interpretation of BW with modern features and mechanics. It's called SC2 and you can even play BW-inspired customs in it. There's already a modern role model for a remaster of a game of similar circumstances: Dota 2. Valve's original goal was to replicate Dota1 as faithfully as possible in a new engine and client and for the most part succeeded. The vast majority of the awkward and "annoying" and "quirky" mechanics in Dota 1 were ported over to the "new" game, and while most Dota1 players switched, there are still people who find that it's not exact enough of a port. However, relatively recently, the main developer of Dota stopped updating the Warcraft custom map to maintain parity with Dota2. After that point (Version 6.83 released last year), Dota 2 was no longer just a port but its own game. In contrast to BW, Dota1/2 was in continuous development, and only now, some of those old ported quirks are being ironed out in the "new" post-port game. I argue that these changes are justified in Dota 2 for this reason and it is also the reason why a BW remaster should not change the original design, warts and all (within practical limits). It defeats the whole purpose to release a remaster of a game that never existed (i.e. BW with MBS etc). As for new players etc, these arguments are already pointless. SC2 has modern UI, control, pathfinding etc and new/casual players still find it too difficult and intimidating to play. RTS as a genre needs way more change and innovation if you want to attract and retain those new/casual players similar to how League or HOTS or dozens of alternatives adapted the Dota design without many of the old/difficult/weird mechanics. This should be stickied at the top of the thread or added to the OP. Could not agree more. Thanks. | ||
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yB.TeH
Germany413 Posts
it just attracts sc2 people who try to bait others into a sc2 vs bw discussion with stupid suggestions no one should take serious like mbs, unlimited unit selection, automining, improved pathfinding and what not | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On August 09 2016 22:48 Qeet wrote: this thread should be closed it just attracts sc2 people who try to bait others into a sc2 vs bw discussion with stupid suggestions no one should take serious like mbs, unlimited unit selection, automining, improved pathfinding and what not I mean I see just as much from the BW players lol. I am looking forward to this HD version though. Reason I stopped playing BW again is because of the lack of players on iccup. I like to play at night and it would only have like 150 players on and took me forever to get a game. Would like it if more players returned like for aoe2 HD, would make me happy ^_^. | ||
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On August 09 2016 22:48 Qeet wrote: this thread should be closed it just attracts sc2 people who try to bait others into a sc2 vs bw discussion with stupid suggestions no one should take serious like mbs, unlimited unit selection, automining, improved pathfinding and what not I still would like to see how the game balance would shift with all those features as all strong units and specially spells are balanced by clunky controls. Maybe some people have a theorical answer already. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 09 2016 23:35 Sentenal wrote: I'm cautiously optimistic! Blizzard restored some of my faith with Overwatch, but I still remember SC2... Here's hoping for a more revitalized community! Community is what frightens me. There are tons of people asking for path finding, MBS, unlimited unit selection for the BW HD remake. | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 09 2016 23:35 Sentenal wrote: I'm cautiously optimistic! Blizzard restored some of my faith with Overwatch, but I still remember SC2... Here's hoping for a more revitalized community! They're made by two completley different teams. I do believe if a remake is done for SC, it'd be done by their classic team that has been built up. Anyway, most of this thread is super redundant, everyone and their mother comes to the same conclusion, they'd like an HD Starcraft, but only if it remains exactly the same. If they do any changes (like fixing the bugs Bw fans have come to love) then the game is essentially useless and it might as well be one of the custom games that have ported over bw units and values. | ||
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Biolunar
Germany224 Posts
I think BW elitist are just angy because the game might be called something with BW in its name and BW is obviously perfect. SC2 players are annoyed because BWs interface is a pain and the BW guys don’t want to hear non of it. Seriously just call it SC3, problem solved. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On August 09 2016 23:39 Wrath wrote: Community is what frightens me. There are tons of people asking for path finding, MBS, unlimited unit selection for the BW HD remake. New people playing the game is fine with me, so long as Blizzard doesn't listen to their opinion on what to change lol | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 10 2016 00:15 Sentenal wrote: New people playing the game is fine with me, so long as Blizzard doesn't listen to their opinion on what to change lol (sadly) Blizzard will most likely listen to the majority. And that's the "new people" | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 10 2016 00:17 Cele wrote: (sadly) Blizzard will most likely listen to the majority. And that's the "new people" I trust the people Blizzard consulted on this so yeah, I'm a little more relived about this. | ||
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Pyrrhuloxia
United States6700 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 09 2016 22:48 Qeet wrote: this thread should be closed it just attracts sc2 people who try to bait others into a sc2 vs bw discussion with stupid suggestions no one should take serious like mbs, unlimited unit selection, automining, improved pathfinding and what not How fucking dense can people actually be in here? It's not about sc2 people wanting these features, it's about making bw (potentially) more accessible for the mainstream audience. There are pros and cons for such a step. You simply ignore the pros because bw is sacred in your head which is ridiculous. Would it be worth it to change the gameplay that much? Who knows but that's exactly the discussion which would be interesting. Do i personally think that 12 units per group, the pathing, etc are important for the gameplay? Yes absolutely! Do i think that these things will attract modern gamers (or as you call it "sc2 people" ; this misses the point btw)? No! What can be done to attract these players while also make the hardcore crowd happy? That's one interesting discussion focus. Is it even necessary for blizzard to make the hardcore crowd happy / is it realistic to have a ton of new players when you change some things? Etc This "as soon as someone talks about qol changes, new design objectives or anything like that i simply call him a sc2 noob and be done with it" train of thought is ludicrous at best. I still think two modes would be ideal, one with bw as it is and one with changes for potential new players | ||
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 10 2016 00:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: How fucking dense can people actually be in here? It's not about sc2 people wanting these features, it's about making bw (potentially) more accessible for the mainstream audience. There are pros and cons for such a step. You simply ignore the pros because bw is sacred in your head which is ridiculous. Would it be worth it to change the gameplay that much? Who knows but that's exactly the discussion which would be interesting. Do i personally think that 12 units per group, the pathing, etc are important for the gameplay? Yes absolutely! Do i think that these things will attract modern gamers (or as you call it "sc2 people" ; this misses the point btw)? No! What can be done to attract these players while also make the hardcore crowd happy? That's one interesting discussion focus. Is it even necessary for blizzard to make the hardcore crowd happy / is it realistic to have a ton of new players when you change some things? Etc This "as soon as someone talks about qol changes, new design objectives or anything like that i simply call him a sc2 noob and be done with it" train of thought is ludicrous at best. I still think two modes would be ideal, one with bw as it is and one with changes for potential new players agree to the last sentence, two modes would be good, if ladder mode is "hardcore mode" or we have two ladders. But dude, manner up. Just coz you don't like what he says doesn't mean you have to insult him (; | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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Cele
Germany4016 Posts
On August 10 2016 00:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: I tried to insult all the people who think that "bw is sacred and if you even argue that you could change things you are blasphemous" tbh. If that failed i apologize i didn't want to "insult" only one person, he was just the prime example. Well: People in this thread are Broodwar fans. Some of us have been supporting this game for over a decade. We enjoy the game as it is, thus we wish for no changes. It's actually fairly simple. But if you're here to insult the entirety of the players who feel that way, i guess your on the wrong section. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:07 Cele wrote: Well: People in this thread are Broodwar fans. Some of us have been supporting this game for over a decade. We enjoy the game as it is, thus we wish for no changes. It's actually fairly simple. But if you're here to insult the entirety of the players who feel that way, i guess your on the wrong section. Being a fan is not the problem. Wanting bw to stay the same as it is now is also not the problem. I respect quite a lot of bw fans here, what i don't respect is this radical religious (!) concept and the effects it has. Quite a clear difference tbh. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:07 Cele wrote: Well: People in this thread are Broodwar fans. Some of us have been supporting this game for over a decade. We enjoy the game as it is, thus we wish for no changes. It's actually fairly simple. But if you're here to insult the entirety of the players who feel that way, i guess your on the wrong section. This "section" thing is really interesting. We have the SC2 forum, where people can come day and night and write endless essays about how SC2 sucks balls like nothing else and how it should be immediately changed as close to BW as possible and they can do that freely and even get applause for how smart they are. Then we have the BW forum where merely suggesting that BW could be slightly changed is the worst thing ever. Makes sense. The whole "BW vs. SC2" ordeal is pretty stupid and I am sorry, but the main problem is the self-proclaimed "BW fans", in particular the tragic remains of a community that lingers in this very subforum. Surely, there are assholes playing SC2, as with anything, but I am pretty sure that the majority of people who watch and play SC2 have no agenda starting any "BW vs SC2" fights, or even separating players into "BW fans" and "SC2 fans". In fact, BW fans are actively welcome in anything SC2 related, so why are all the "TL BW people" so hostile against anyone who likes SC2? I for one refuse this "world order". I don't agree that the discussion on everything related to BW is the sole property of a group of hostile self-absorbed egomaniacs who have proclaimed them to be the Only True Believers. I don't consider my opinion inferior, just because it doesn't align with the BW fan circlejerk. C'mon people, just read some of the "hardcore BW elitist" (whatever that insane label means) post and try to imagine how absurd they would sound to you if they concerned any other topic in existence. Even the guy who made the parallel with a church, was trying to make a pro-BW-team point ... just thing about how insane that thinking is: that much self-reflection is lacking in this community. (And for the record, yes, I am an aggressive atheist and if I ever found myself caught in a religious debate in a church, I would have no problems talking about how silly the religion in question is.) User was warned for this post | ||
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[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6505 Posts
On August 10 2016 00:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: I tried to insult all the people who think that "bw is sacred and if you even argue that you could change things you are blasphemous" tbh. If that failed i apologize i didn't want to "insult" only one person, he was just the prime example. so you are telling me the only that is stoping people from playing bw its the features your are asking for ? | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
On August 10 2016 00:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: I tried to insult all the people who think that "bw is sacred and if you even argue that you could change things you are blasphemous" tbh. If that failed i apologize i didn't want to "insult" only one person, he was just the prime example. that's the spirit! Is that your ultimate life goal yet? lmao. Btw what you call "hardcore bw crowd" is the only reason bw is of any relevance. Any change to the game mechanics will reset the pro scene with a decent chance of it never recovering. That's exactly what we do not want. Do you? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:24 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: so you are telling me the only that is stoping people from playing bw its the features your are asking for ? No i also never said that. I merely suggested that discussing these things might actually be interesting. The problem is that as soon as you bring it up there are tons of people who don't even read what you write / don't want to understand it / cannot understand it and it immediately becomes the same old bw vs sc2 topic again where bw is perfect in every sense of the word and everyone who thinks otherwise (or simply tries to reflect on different povs) is defined as not worth talking to. As opisska already said, try to imagine this attitude on another topic, does that sound reasonable at all? No obviously not. On August 10 2016 01:24 juvenal wrote: that's the spirit! Is that your ultimate life goal yet? lmao. Btw what you call "hardcore bw crowd" is the only reason bw is of any relevance. Any change to the game mechanics will reset the pro scene with a decent chance of it never recovering. That's exactly what we do not want. Do you? Nice simplistic view. If we simply state a worst case scenario is the most likely outcome we don't have to actually argue at all, great idea! If you would have actually read my posts in this thread you would have noticed that that's actually not the intent i have at all ("destroy the scene"). Nice try though! | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:27 The_Red_Viper wrote: No i also never said that. I merely suggested that discussing these things might actually be interesting. The problem is that as soon as you bring it up there are tons of people who don't even read what you write / don't want to understand it / cannot understand it and it immediately becomes the same old bw vs sc2 topic again where bw is perfect in every sense of the word and everyone who thinks otherwise (or simply tries to reflect on different povs) is defined as not worth talking to. As opisska already said, try to imagine this attitude on another topic, does that sound reasonable at all? No obviously not. yeah but do you actually play bw or know how bw truly works? I mean would a ping pong player know how tennis works? lol | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:31 Shinokuki wrote: yeah but do you actually play bw or know how bw truly works? I mean would a ping pong player know how tennis works? lol yoyo! This is not a Tennis vs Table Tennis thread right here! Careful. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:31 Shinokuki wrote: yeah but do you actually play bw or know how bw truly works? I mean would a ping pong player know how tennis works? lol Yeah but do you actually read the posts and understand them? I mean would someone who didn't read shakespeare try to discuss it? lol I don't know how often i actually have to write that i think these mechanics are important for the gameplay and i know that. Only coming from this angle is simply not very interesting at all, there are a lot more things to consider, is it really that hard to understand that? edit: to answer your question btw: Yes a ping pong player would understand how tennis works if he actually invested time in "researching" it. But sure keep attacking the messenger (ping pong player) and not the message (arguments, reasoning), very intelligent thing to do. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:22 opisska wrote: This "section" thing is really interesting. We have the SC2 forum, where people can come day and night and write endless essays about how SC2 sucks balls like nothing else and how it should be immediately changed as close to BW as possible and they can do that freely and even get applause for how smart they are. Then we have the BW forum where merely suggesting that BW could be slightly changed is the worst thing ever. Makes sense. The whole "BW vs. SC2" ordeal is pretty stupid and I am sorry, but the main problem is the self-proclaimed "BW fans", in particular the tragic remains of a community that lingers in this very subforum. Surely, there are assholes playing SC2, as with anything, but I am pretty sure that the majority of people who watch and play SC2 have no agenda starting any "BW vs SC2" fights, or even separating players into "BW fans" and "SC2 fans". In fact, BW fans are actively welcome in anything SC2 related, so why are all the "TL BW people" so hostile against anyone who likes SC2? I for one refuse this "world order". I don't agree that the discussion on everything related to BW is the sole property of a group of hostile self-absorbed egomaniacs who have proclaimed them to be the Only True Believers. I don't consider my opinion inferior, just because it doesn't align with the BW fan circlejerk. C'mon people, just read some of the "hardcore BW elitist" (whatever that insane label means) post and try to imagine how absurd they would sound to you if they concerned any other topic in existence. Even the guy who made the parallel with a church, was trying to make a pro-BW-team point ... just thing about how insane that thinking is: that much self-reflection is lacking in this community. (And for the record, yes, I am an aggressive atheist and if I ever found myself caught in a religious debate in a church, I would have no problems talking about how silly the religion in question is.) you need to take a chill pill or something, I understand that you have a problem with the BW community but I'll tell you, you can't change it, its annoying the way it is, but theres a part of the community thats jaded and in most cases justifiably so, their perception might change in the coming months or it won't. I'll ask you this, have you considered what the BW community is saying rather than how they are saying it?Why they don't want any major changes to the game? Or do you just dismiss it as religious cult-like behavior. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: you need to take a chill pill or something, I understand that you have a problem with the BW community but I'll tell you, you can't change it, its annoying the way it is, but theres a part of the community thats jaded and in most cases justifiably so, their perception might change in the coming months or it won't. I'll ask you this, have you considered what the BW community is saying rather than how they are saying it?Why they don't want any major changes to the game? Or do you just dismiss it as religious cult-like behavior. There is a difference between saying that the gameplay would be changed (everybody acknowledges that btw) and saying that discussion around the subject of change is basically blasphemous. The first idea most people probably agree with, the second one is destructive to any form of discussion because bw is "the word of god". So no it's not only a wording problem, it's an attitude problem. It's ignorant, intellectually lazy and destructive and thus cannot be tolerated at all. | ||
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juvenal
2448 Posts
On August 10 2016 00:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: What can be done to attract these players while also make the hardcore crowd happy? And you started it off with On August 10 2016 00:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: How fucking dense can people actually be in here? Then you demanded we listen to you. Yeye, go on, we're listening carefully now. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:47 juvenal wrote: All you do is calling people names, claiming they're opinions are wrong and useless, claiming you've got some interesting points to discuss and all you actually contributed was the question Captain Obvious would've been proud of: And you started it off with Then you demanded we listen to you. Yeye, go on, we're listening carefully now. I never demanded anyone to listen to me, i demanded that people are actually open minded about discussion because that's a reasonable thing to do. Reflect on a subject, argue about it from multiple povs (you don't even have to agree with a pov to see that it has interesting, reasonable arguments to make nonetheless) and come to conclusions based on that. Saying any form of discussion about it is void because bw is already perfect or whatever reason you can come up with is incredibly lazy and destructive. Maybe i shouldn't have started my second attempt with name calling, but i actually believe that a lot of "hardcore" bw fanatics (not fans) are incredibly dense, so there is that. edit: i also never claimed that i have all the answers to these important questions (nobody does btw), i merely suggested that it's worth the discussion. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: I never demanded anyone to listen to me, i demanded that people are actually open minded about discussion because that's a reasonable thing to do. Reflect on a subject, argue about it from multiple povs (you don't even have to agree with a pov to see that it has interesting, reasonable arguments to make nonetheless) and come to conclusions based on that. Saying any form of discussion about it is void because bw is already perfect or whatever reason you can come up with is incredibly lazy and destructive. Maybe i shouldn't have started my second attempt with name calling, but i actually believe that a lot of "hardcore" bw fanatics (not fans) are incredibly dense, so there is that. edit: i also never claimed that i have all the answers to these important questions (nobody does btw), i merely suggested that it's worth the discussion. then start said discussion its ideal to have everyone discuss the same thing in the thread but at least it would be nice if someone were to discuss it with you instead of arguing that nobody wants to talk about it. its silly to argue about arguing so lets not do that. let me start, I genuinely believe that simple curiosity over how BW has managed to to survive this long might draw out a small number of new audience, obviously not a lot but you have agree its pretty wild that BW has managed to stay relevant after this long even after its pro scene is dead. | ||
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Airking990
United States193 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:22 opisska wrote: This "section" thing is really interesting. We have the SC2 forum, where people can come day and night and write endless essays about how SC2 sucks balls like nothing else and how it should be immediately changed as close to BW as possible and they can do that freely and even get applause for how smart they are. Then we have the BW forum where merely suggesting that BW could be slightly changed is the worst thing ever. Makes sense. The whole "BW vs. SC2" ordeal is pretty stupid and I am sorry, but the main problem is the self-proclaimed "BW fans", in particular the tragic remains of a community that lingers in this very subforum. Surely, there are assholes playing SC2, as with anything, but I am pretty sure that the majority of people who watch and play SC2 have no agenda starting any "BW vs SC2" fights, or even separating players into "BW fans" and "SC2 fans". In fact, BW fans are actively welcome in anything SC2 related, so why are all the "TL BW people" so hostile against anyone who likes SC2? I for one refuse this "world order". I don't agree that the discussion on everything related to BW is the sole property of a group of hostile self-absorbed egomaniacs who have proclaimed them to be the Only True Believers. I don't consider my opinion inferior, just because it doesn't align with the BW fan circlejerk. C'mon people, just read some of the "hardcore BW elitist" (whatever that insane label means) post and try to imagine how absurd they would sound to you if they concerned any other topic in existence. Even the guy who made the parallel with a church, was trying to make a pro-BW-team point ... just thing about how insane that thinking is: that much self-reflection is lacking in this community. (And for the record, yes, I am an aggressive atheist and if I ever found myself caught in a religious debate in a church, I would have no problems talking about how silly the religion in question is.) just my 2 cents on the topic. this is something i've said for years, be it comparing BW with SC2, comparing GunZ The Duel to GunZ The Second Duel, comparing Oldschool Runescape to Runescape 3, Vanilla WoW with Retail, and even comparing Super Smash Bros. Melee to Brawl and Smash 4: They're the same games at their core. People who've never played them before compare them to be "the same" simply because they "have the same name." To the players, that's not how it is. Each person, regardless of which side they belong to, hold their game closely as much as the other side would. And sure, they're grouped together because if their name and they're obviously drastically different. They might be the same game at their core, and people should be grateful for that. But at the same time, they're drastically different and people shouldn't compare the two as much as they do. who cares if you think one is better than the other? they're so different they may as well be different games, and shouldnt be compared. Who cares if you pick one side or the other? it doesnt matter. Quite frankly, i like SC2 and SCBW for very different reasons tl;dr the games are very different, dont compare them to each other. they're very different games and the two communities shouldnt be arguing over two very different games. otherwise it boils down to the "CoD vs Battlefield vs Counterstrike" argument. aaaaaaaaaaaaaanyways, whens the part when i can go pro in brood war? | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
Finally, the introduction of BW HD could come with a lot of bad ramifications for the current BW players such as the undertaking of legal action against the private servers. If then BW HD is a completely different game from the original, this would be another kick in the face to BW supporters and players that have made this game achieve a legendary status. People claim there's no monetary incentive to appeal only to the harcore brood war players (which is wrong, considering that an entire switch of Korea to BW HD could be quite rewarding). But why do people think there's a monetary incentive to appeal to the so-called casual gamer? Where's this mythical casual gamer that would love brood war if only it had multiple building selection, better pathfinding and unlimited unit selection? I can see a few dozen of always the same people arguing for these features in anything related to brood war, that's about it. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: I never demanded anyone to listen to me, i demanded that people are actually open minded about discussion because that's a reasonable thing to do. Reflect on a subject, argue about it from multiple povs (you don't even have to agree with a pov to see that it has interesting, reasonable arguments to make nonetheless) and come to conclusions based on that. Saying any form of discussion about it is void because bw is already perfect or whatever reason you can come up with is incredibly lazy and destructive. Maybe i shouldn't have started my second attempt with name calling, but i actually believe that a lot of "hardcore" bw fanatics (not fans) are incredibly dense, so there is that. edit: i also never claimed that i have all the answers to these important questions (nobody does btw), i merely suggested that it's worth the discussion. You seem knowledgeable about this topic. So whats your suggested improvement that bw can look forward to | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:07 BLinD-RawR wrote: then start said discussion its ideal to have everyone discuss the same thing in the thread but at least it would be nice if someone were to discuss it with you instead of arguing that nobody wants to talk about it. its silly to argue about arguing so lets not do that. let me start, I genuinely believe that simple curiosity over how BW has managed to to survive this long might draw out a small number of new audience, obviously not a lot but you have agree its pretty wild that BW has managed to stay relevant after this long even after its pro scene is dead. Don't imply that nobody tried to bring these topics up. The reaction to it is the reason i started with this in the first place. As soon as someone tries to start a discussion the usual ignorant statement spawn immediately ("lol you know nothing about bw", "anybody who says something like this should just be ignored", yadayadayada). Let's be real for a moment here. About your statement, yes sure i don't doubt that this is true to som extent, if it would be f2p a lot of people would surely check it out. The objective then has to keep them playing though or in the case of an upfront cost to make them buy it in the first place. A lot of sc2 people would probably check it out just because they hear tasteless and co talk about bw (and now even see them cast bw), so blizzard will surely make some money here. But ideally as a community you want these people to stay, no? Personally i don't have a problem with these limitations, which is why it's funny that i get attacked for simply proposing that the average gamer doesn't agree with that pov though. | ||
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Dental Floss
United States1015 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On August 10 2016 01:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: I never demanded anyone to listen to me, i demanded that people are actually open minded about discussion because that's a reasonable thing to do. Reflect on a subject, argue about it from multiple povs (you don't even have to agree with a pov to see that it has interesting, reasonable arguments to make nonetheless) and come to conclusions based on that. Saying any form of discussion about it is void because bw is already perfect or whatever reason you can come up with is incredibly lazy and destructive. Maybe i shouldn't have started my second attempt with name calling, but i actually believe that a lot of "hardcore" bw fanatics (not fans) are incredibly dense, so there is that. edit: i also never claimed that i have all the answers to these important questions (nobody does btw), i merely suggested that it's worth the discussion. lol. You retracted your statement but then you decided to say it is. I'm not sure if I'm fitting in your list of dense people for my comment below: On August 09 2016 15:44 BigFan wrote: You can't crush interceptors with your cc. Afaik, it was patched out ages ago. Also, no change to balance (even though scouts could use something), no mbs, no smart casting and no change to the 12 units in a group limitation. All these are essential features in BW. The game wouldn't be the same if a single one of these was changed. I thought the reason for wanting any of these changes was quite obvious to anyone following the scene. BW is known for being a hardcore RTS. I mentioned to a friend that I played brood war (or maybe just starcraft, don't remember 100% tbh), the response? that's pretty hardcore lol. Point is simple, BW has built its reputation around being a hardcore RTS with an unattainable skill ceiling and a high skill floor. Things like 12 unit selection were a design choice. They weren't due to technological limitations so changing that is basically changing the game. Changing mbs will lower the skill level and a lot of the balance that we currently have in BW is due to control group limitations, lack of smart casting and also AI limitations. Even if Blizzard just left the unit selection as is but changed mbs and smart casting, the game loses its identity. Heck, even changing the graphics could have unexpected changes. Depending on how they implement the change, they can wreck BW imo (does it change the viewing area? If yes, don't want it!). Basically, BW identity is built upon all those core features and changing them is amount to making a brand new game. Should Blizzard try it? Well, they can but I don't think Korea would get into it and neither will the remaining foreign audience. It might give some new players a chance to try a classic BUT they aren't actually trying the game that started esports in KR. They are playing another version that just has the same units, sounds without all the features that made it what it is. That also doesn't mean anything regarding retain-ment. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
Changing ruleset of BW now, would be like allowing people to use hands in soccer or remove dribbling rule in basketball. After all, it's a remaster, not a remake. There is already a game that has all the goods that people ask from BW, like unlimited unit selection and whatnot - it's SC2. You can't change rules and features of BW just to accomodate the hypothetical "casual/new playerbase". BW fans play BW because they like it the way it is. Maybe they do find clicking each individual building enjoyable (I know I do, it gives me a rythm and helps me relax), maybe they do feel some kind of kick when they successfully cast 3 spells in quick succession. "Improve" the UI, and you take it all away. By doing it, you basically kick BW fans in the balls, while inviting new people to try the game out. That won't work, because they won't get the BW experience, they will get an experience that is nothign like BW. So if you want to please a crowd with a remaster, it makes sense to please your current fans, not "new/casual playerbase who thinks BW hard but BW good game" that might not exist, Some casual players will try BW with easier controls, obviously. But casual players don't stick around for long, they will get bored, try different game and forget about BW, with easy or hard controls. BW has been alive mostly thanks to "dedicated", "elitist", "hardcore" crowd that is looked down upon on this and other forums as a form of cancer. I'd rather say "thank you" to those guys who keep on playing on Fish and iCCup. No i also never said that. I merely suggested that discussing these things might actually be interesting. The problem is that as soon as you bring it up there are tons of people who don't even read what you write / don't want to understand it / cannot understand it and it immediately becomes the same old bw vs sc2 topic again where bw is perfect in every sense of the word and everyone who thinks otherwise (or simply tries to reflect on different povs) is defined as not worth talking to. I think the mistake you did, is to try to start such disscussion in a thread that is about BW being modernized (graphically or otherwise, irrelevant), where people express their views and feelings (if you love something, you gonna have strong feelings, and feelings have no place in any discussion) and where people already started SC1 vs SC2 wars.If you want to discuss how BW would look like with some changes to pathing/controls etc., you should rather start a new thread, where you clearly describe your intent. Make some prospositions, show us your point of view, ask couple of questions to start up the discussion. Don't try to talk about things in a thread where people already are on the defensive after some outsiders proposed that "BW would be better with SC2 controls" or something like that. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: Don't imply that nobody tried to bring these topics up. The reaction to it is the reason i started with this in the first place. As soon as someone tries to start a discussion the usual ignorant statement spawn immediately ("lol you know nothing about bw", "anybody who says something like this should just be ignored", yadayadayada). Let's be real for a moment here. About your statement, yes sure i don't doubt that this is true to som extent, if it would be f2p a lot of people would surely check it out. The objective then has to keep them playing though or in the case of an upfront cost to make them buy it in the first place. A lot of sc2 people would probably check it out just because they hear tasteless and co talk about bw (and now even see them cast bw), so blizzard will surely make some money here. But ideally as a community you want these people to stay, no? Personally i don't have a problem with these limitations, which is why it's funny that i get attacked for simply proposing that the average gamer doesn't agree with that pov though. make ums unlimited and creative maybe? Only a handful played bw competitively back in the days. A lot of people played UMS, teamplay, and fastest. The most crucial aspect of bw was social community. It truly felt like family. I always loved loggin on to bw because of my friends. Maybe make bw REALLY social kinda like mmorpg type of social. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:12 B-royal wrote: The_Red_Viper I like your posts in the song of ice and fire thread, but you're out of your element here. You understand changing pathfinding, multiple building selection and unit selection limits would change brood war for the worse. You understand that the relevancy and continued survival of brood war hinges on it being arguably the most hardcore RTS game in existence. So why would you try to appeal casual gamers? Sc2 has all the things that some people in this thread are arguing for and the average gamer considers Sc2 too harcore and would rather play a MOBA. An attempt at an analogy... It's like trying to make extreme rock climbing more appealing to the less adventurous rock climber, making it essentially not extreme rock climbing anymore. Finally, the introduction of BW HD could come with a lot of bad ramifications for the current BW players such as the undertaking of legal action against the private servers. If then BW HD is a completely different game from the original, this would be another kick in the face to BW supporters and players that have made this game achieve a legendary status. People claim there's no monetary incentive to appeal only to the harcore brood war players (which is wrong, considering that an entire switch of Korea to BW HD could be quite rewarding). But why do people think there's a monetary incentive to appeal to the so-called casual gamer? Where's this mythical casual gamer that would love brood war if only it had multiple building selection, better pathfinding and unlimited unit selection? I can see a few dozen of always the same people arguing for these features in anything related to brood war, that's about it. You understand changing pathfinding, multiple building selection and unit selection limits would change brood war for the worse Yes it would probably change the game for the worse, most likely. We cannot be 100% sure because afaik nobody ever tried it, but it's a reasonable assumption to make at least. Sc2 has all the things that some people in this thread are arguing for and the average gamer considers Sc2 too harcore and would rather play a MOBA That is simplifying the issue though. BW with these mechanics =/= sc2. (you can argue about changing some things, others not, pathfinding is imo the biggest factor here personally) Maybe people would actually like a bw with these features a lot more than sc2 (not speaking about the hardcore bw scene here) There are a lot of design decisions in bw that would still make the game feel completely different from sc2, don't you agree? Finally, the introduction of BW HD could come with a lot of bad ramifications for the current BW players such as the undertaking of legal action against the private servers. If then BW HD is a completely different game from the original, this would be another kick in the face to BW supporters and players that have made this game achieve a legendary status Which is why i suggested multiple times already that there should probably be two modes in this. One with bw as it is now and one with changes. Where's this mythical casual gamer that would love brood war if only it had multiple building selection, better pathfinding and unlimited unit selection? I can see a few dozen of always the same people arguing for these features in anything related to brood war, that's about it. Personally i don't wanna say that changing these few things would magically make casual gamers enjoy the game 100%. But it's reasonable to say that these changes would appeal to more people than the current iteration of bw, no? These things are brought up because it's the easy thing to suggest, obviously there are other things that could be changed to make it more accessible, the discussion shouldn't stop here. But what does blizzard want to achieve with bw hd? Get the bw audience to buy a new version or also appeal to other gamers. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Again, I might be the only person in the world with this mindset... but, I am? I was never special in anything, so maybe this is my thing? But I don't think so. I think that I am the casual gamer we are looking for and that there have to be more people like that. I am never gonna play BWHD if it has identical gameplay to BW, because I know that after 6 years of SC2 I would hate the guts of SC without automine and MBS. On the other hand, I know that some people like BW as it is - and those people do have BW as it is, right? Are you really seriously worried that Blizzard is going to get after you and try to force you to play BWHD only? I think that's pretty far-fetched. Anyway, I still think that "dual" BWHD with both options and matchmaking for both options would be best. Not that Blizzard reads this anyway, so we aren't really gonna make a difference here, but I would still like to understand, why that would be such a big problem. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
It's almost like you guys think that people don't want "modern" features because BW is sacred or because we want to keep the game "artificially hard", so only the "true BW purists" are able to play it. Also, being completely honest, do you think that even if these "modern" features were implemented, the game would attract a lot of newer players? Is it happening to LoTV? Why isn't LoTV flooding with new players everywhere? | ||
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Airking990
United States193 Posts
There's ways to change the game without changing its gameplay mechanics. stuff like how the ladder works, how lobby works, matchmaking, etc. BW's current matchmaking system (imo) is extremely flawed. I'm a d- player, and it's hard for me to find actually d/d- players who are around my skill level, as there are a ton of smurfs and/or players who have just been playing much longer than i have, even if they're still a lower rank than I am. I see c- players leeching off of d/d- players by making games titled "1v1 d/d-" and instant start games if a d/d- player comes in. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
But what does blizzard want to achieve with bw hd? Get the bw audience to buy a new version or also appeal to other gamers. Maybe I'm on a different page than everyone else, but isn't the whole point of HD Remasters to pander to nostalgia and older audiences? I imagine if they wanted to appeal to new gamers, they'd make a new game, instead of taking an old game and changing it so that it just looks like an old game. | ||
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cncbmb
238 Posts
Ban me please, I'll just post again if I get a warning. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:36 Airking990 wrote: im gonna have to agree with The_Red_Viper on one thing, if anything. Most BW fans, especially on this forum, are extremely zealous and praise BW nearly religiously. I mean i love Brood war as much as the next guy, but sometimes people take it a little too far any time somebody brings up some kind of change. There's ways to change the game without changing its gameplay mechanics. stuff like how the ladder works, how lobby works, etc. I think most people would welcome automatchmaking, a new ladder, etc. Most are just contrary to adding/changing features that would interfere a lot with gameplay. | ||
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Airking990
United States193 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:39 petro1987 wrote: I think most people would welcome automatchmaking, a new ladder, etc. Most are just contrary to adding/changing features that would interfere a lot with gameplay. i think most people are heavily distrustful of Blizzard in that matter. But we have to consider the possibility of it literally just being upscaled bw, keeping everything the same and just getting higher-res sprites, and even scaling up collision boxes and stuff without any of the smoothing you might expect from an HD Remaster and trust Blizzard a little bit. If worst comes to worst, we still have Brood War as it is, can downgrade our games (because the game comes installed off their website on patch 1.15, and you need to update to 1.16. Downloads for 1.16 are still everywhere and we can revert) and just play on stuff like ICCup and ShieldBattery (when it comes). If it gets worse than that and Blizzard starts pulling out DMCA takedowns on defiler.ru, iccup, fish, etc., that's where i draw the line. These groups dont even profit off of running BW and get along via donations. (fuck you nintendo for the DMCAs on AnotherMetroid2Remake) | ||
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feckless
1099 Posts
On August 10 2016 00:39 The_Red_Viper wrote: How fucking dense can people actually be in here? It's not about sc2 people wanting these features, it's about making bw (potentially) more accessible for the mainstream audience. There are pros and cons for such a step. You simply ignore the pros because bw is sacred in your head which is ridiculous. Would it be worth it to change the gameplay that much? Who knows but that's exactly the discussion which would be interesting. Do i personally think that 12 units per group, the pathing, etc are important for the gameplay? Yes absolutely! Do i think that these things will attract modern gamers (or as you call it "sc2 people" ; this misses the point btw)? No! What can be done to attract these players while also make the hardcore crowd happy? That's one interesting discussion focus. Is it even necessary for blizzard to make the hardcore crowd happy / is it realistic to have a ton of new players when you change some things? Etc This "as soon as someone talks about qol changes, new design objectives or anything like that i simply call him a sc2 noob and be done with it" train of thought is ludicrous at best. I still think two modes would be ideal, one with bw as it is and one with changes for potential new players Note: I have not been on Battle.net in a long time, so I have no idea what BW on their servers is like anymore. I'm writing this post from the point-of-view of a person who plays occasionally and visits a forum where most people are into competitive gaming in one way or another. I think many of the balance and gameplay, etc., issues that we are addressing in this thread do not even matter to "mainstream" gamers. What most people are suggesting as changes would only really matter to, well, us. Maybe to other competitive people. Why would you want to make such changes for those types of people? And to what end? Would you draw enough numbers to justify the changes? It doesn't make any sense to me because their whole mentality is that they want to compete. I think we need to be clearer on the audience we want to attract: casual gamers or competitive gamers. I think people here sometimes make an unwarranted assumption: that "casual" (or "mainstream") gamers want to compete seriously, taking their game to higher levels, where the competition is as much against oneself as one's opponent. And I don't think many, if not most, of them do. I think higher levels for a "casual" gamer means going from level 45 to 46. If we start, instead, from the assumption that what casual gamers want is something completely different from hardcore competition, the conclusions reached are radically different. Then the idea of introducing "easier" ways to play the game just don't hold water. Now what we are saying is that to appease the "hardcore", we're going to "simplify" the game, which makes no sense. The game is simple enough to be played casually. The problem is that most of us here are not really "casual" about BW. This is TL. We obviously take it more seriously and have or want to have a deeper understanding of the game. At higher levels, of course it's difficult to play. Anything is. But it's simple enough to be played casually. And there is more than one way the game can be enjoyed. Making something more "accessible" doesn't have to necessitate making changes to the gameplay. In my opinion, I actually think making gameplay changes would only piss off BW fans and be completely lost on casuals. In fact, most games and sports are like this at a certain level. Anyone can grab a soccer ball and some friends and go have a game. Not everyone wants to compete seriously. Are we going to change soccer's gameplay to allow hands because some people might not be able to play effectively? What if they don't want to play seriously? Then it wouldn't even matter. Everyone likes friendly competition, but huge amounts of practice to get to "the next level" is not really most people's thing in any sport or game. But most games/sports allow me that avenue to play at a friendly level if I wanted, but also play more seriously if I wanted (some games have more depth than others, obviously). I think that's BW's problem (and potentially even SC2's problem, for that matter): it's very limited for casual gamers to play each other. Brood War was very popular for a long time even among "casual" players who had no intention of competing or even gave a shit about the professional scene. It isn't popular enough to continue drawing in new blood at the moment and the game's exposure is very low. As such, it's a pretty hostile and barren environment for anyone trying to pick up the game for the first time. They would see that there would be a handful of UMS games and a bunch of games where they get slaughtered because they have absolutely no idea what they are doing. It would be far friendlier if there were constantly new faces for new people to play with and against, and if there were different types of games. I remember playing this game all those years ago. Most people who played didn't give a shit about playing the game for some competitive kick. Most people didn't give a damn about taking their game to the next level. Most people I knew didn't even think about gameplay (in a 1v1 context). There were so many different types of games that kept so many people entertained in different ways. There were those who laddered. There were those who played casually. There were those who played UMSes (try counting those), and 2v2s, and 3v3s, and 4v4s, and BGH and fast money maps, and FFAs (often on some horribly-balanced Blizz map). Hell, some people didn't even play. They sat around in channels talking with friends or playing those trivia bots. There is more than one way to enjoy a game (or its community). In my opinion, making any changes to the gameplay at this point in time is utterly useless. Yes, I'm a staunch BW conservative (I do think that the game is pretty much complete). But I also think it's because any gameplay changes would probably be lost on most casual gamers, anyway. (The two mode thing might be an alternative.) I think that many, if not most, of us at this site have a shortsightedness. We think of competition and having fun through a fine lens. But that's not the only way to look at a game. The competitive will always be the competitive. If someone joining a game wants to compete or joins with the intention of competing, they'll do it, even if they have to lose a thousand games when they first start playing, no matter how "difficult" it's perceived to be. But if we're going to attract casual players, we need to realize that not everyone is looking to play seriously and there is more than one way to enjoy a game. No amount of gameplay and balance changes is going to change that, and all of the gameplay and balance changes in the world may not matter to many, if not most, of those people. e2a: I definitely think that any changes to make the UI more user-friendly, and other similar changes, would be a big improvement and would help draw in casual players. One of the barriers is definitely trying to set up games and forwarding ports and all of that crap that most people do not want to bother with. | ||
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letian
Germany4221 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:28 Shinokuki wrote: make ums unlimited and creative maybe? Only a handful played bw competitively back in the days. A lot of people played UMS, teamplay, and fastest. The most crucial aspect of bw was social community. It truly felt like family. I always loved loggin on to bw because of my friends. Maybe make bw REALLY social kinda like mmorpg type of social. that's true man I miss those days shit guys what about the chat are they gonna make a shit chat again so we can't talk or criticize the game lol they did this for every single game after merging with activision, gamers criticizing the game on chat channels hurt their profits so they kill chat even when people were asking for a good chat interface for months they just came up with some lame excuse for putting a half assed chat interface in the end (like "oh no its gonna be full of spammers" you think you want it but you don't...) | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:48 feckless wrote: Note: I have not been on Battle.net in a long time, so I have no idea what BW on their servers is like anymore. I'm writing this post from the point-of-view of a person who plays occasionally and visits a forum where most people are into competitive gaming in one way or another. I think many of the balance and gameplay, etc., issues that we are addressing in this thread do not even matter to "mainstream" gamers. What most people are suggesting as changes would only really matter to, well, us. Maybe to other competitive people. Why would you want to make such changes for those types of people? And to what end? Would you draw enough numbers to justify the changes? It doesn't make any sense to me because their whole mentality is that they want to compete. I think we need to be clearer on the audience we want to attract: casual gamers or competitive gamers. I think people here sometimes make an unwarranted assumption: that "casual" (or "mainstream") gamers want to compete seriously, taking their game to higher levels, where the competition is as much against oneself as one's opponent. And I don't think many, if not most, of them do. I think higher levels for a "casual" gamer means going from level 45 to 46. If we start, instead, from the assumption that what casual gamers want is something completely different from hardcore competition, the conclusions reached are radically different. Then the idea of introducing "easier" ways to play the game just don't hold water. Now what we are saying is that to appease the "hardcore", we're going to "simplify" the game, which makes no sense. The game is simple enough to be played casually. The problem is that most of us here are not really "casual" about BW. This is TL. We obviously take it more seriously and have or want to have a deeper understanding of the game. At higher levels, of course it's difficult to play. Anything is. But it's simple enough to be played casually. And there is more than one way the game can be enjoyed. Making something more "accessible" doesn't have to necessitate making changes to the gameplay. In my opinion, I actually think making gameplay changes would only piss off BW fans and be completely lost on casuals. In fact, most games and sports are like this at a certain level. Anyone can grab a soccer ball and some friends and go have a game. Not everyone wants to compete seriously. Are we going to change soccer's gameplay to allow hands because some people might not be able to play effectively? What if they don't want to play seriously? Then it wouldn't even matter. Everyone likes friendly competition, but huge amounts of practice to get to "the next level" is not really most people's thing in any sport or game. But most games/sports allow me that avenue to play at a friendly level if I wanted, but also play more seriously if I wanted (some games have more depth than others, obviously). I think that's BW's problem (and potentially even SC2's problem, for that matter): it's very limited for casual gamers to play each other. Brood War was very popular for a long time even among "casual" players who had no intention of competing or even gave a shit about the professional scene. It isn't popular enough to continue drawing in new blood at the moment and the game's exposure is very low. As such, it's a pretty hostile and barren environment for anyone trying to pick up the game for the first time. They would see that there would be a handful of UMS games and a bunch of games where they get slaughtered because they have absolutely no idea what they are doing. It would be far friendlier if there were constantly new faces for new people to play with and against, and if there were different types of games. I remember playing this game all those years ago. Most people who played didn't give a shit about playing the game for some competitive kick. Most people didn't give a damn about taking their game to the next level. Most people I knew didn't even think about gameplay (in a 1v1 context). There were so many different types of games that kept so many people entertained in different ways. There were those who laddered. There were those who played casually. There were those who played UMSes (try counting those), and 2v2s, and 3v3s, and 4v4s, and BGH and fast money maps, and FFAs (often on some horribly-balanced Blizz map). Hell, some people didn't even play. They sat around in channels talking with friends or playing those trivia bots. There is more than one way to enjoy a game (or its community). In my opinion, making any changes to the gameplay at this point in time is utterly useless. Yes, I'm a staunch BW conservative (I do think that the game is pretty much complete). But I also think it's because any gameplay changes would probably be lost on most casual gamers, anyway. (The two mode thing might be an alternative.) I think that many, if not most, of us at this site have a shortsightedness. We think of competition and having fun through a fine lens. But that's not the only way to look at a game. The competitive will always be the competitive. If someone joining a game wants to compete or joins with the intention of competing, they'll do it, even if they have to lose a thousand games when they first start playing, no matter how "difficult" it's perceived to be. But if we're going to attract casual players, we need to realize that not everyone is looking to play seriously and there is more than one way to enjoy a game. No amount of gameplay and balance changes is going to change that, and all of the gameplay and balance changes in the world may not matter to many, if not most, of those people. e2a: I definitely think that any changes to make the UI more user-friendly, and other similar changes, would be a big improvement and would help draw in casual players. One of the barriers is definitely trying to set up games and forwarding ports and all of that crap that most people do not want to bother with. I agree 100% with you. I remember playing this game in Battle.net even before BW, and 1v1 wasn't even the most played mode afaik. I loved playing 2v2, 3v3 on BGHs and many people played a lot of different UMS maps. The way I see it, the "2 rulesets" idea would be bad because it would segment the playerbase even more. Maybe the "modern" ruleset would be good for SC2 players that want to transition, but don't like to put in the effort to play classic BW. The true casual player though wouldn't probably care that much. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:34 opisska wrote: Again, I might be the only person in the world with this mindset... but, I am? I was never special in anything, so maybe this is my thing? But I don't think so. I think that I am the casual gamer we are looking for and that there have to be more people like that. I am never gonna play BWHD if it has identical gameplay to BW, because I know that after 6 years of SC2 I would hate the guts of SC without automine and MBS. Funny, as these are the two features implemented way worse in SCII than I imagined during the first rumors SCII would have them. I remember how unnerved I was by the MBS, as it wasn't making things much easier than they were in BW, probably because I was used to clicking buildings one by one. Pressing so much more buttons isn't really harder if you're used to it, it doesn't take too much to get it down to begin with, it's just a matter of dedication and concentration (which you need in both games for the late stages). However, once you are used to it, you'll find MBS annoying or in a best case scenario no improvement at all, as it has problems of its own - if slight lags occur, you either produce too much, the wrong mix or nothing at all. I don't think there's much gain in this mechanic compared to the feeling of being more precise and aware of what you're doing once you left the lower ranks. Please note, I'm leaving out the warp-feature-thing you had with Pylons and whatnot for Protoss, this works a lot differently and actually was rather making life easy for me. A minor improvement was the option to rally all buildings at once, but... not too mind boggling for non-professionals I think. Aside from that, auto-gather can be quite terrible in BW, again, once you left the lower ranks. The eco/army supply balancing needs thought, it's a very typical thing for beginners, especially Zerg users, to screw that up. All this tiny features, in the long run, will hold you down: Terran overpowering against Protoss, Protoss against Zerg and Zerg economy in general, just to list random examples that matter. The real pain is the unit selection limit, this was the go-to feature to make life easier for me, a rather slow player (around 180-210 apm in average when active) in SCII. You don't need many number hotkeys, you're free to move armies without double or tripple checking, or spending any thought on other edgy things. However, implementing this into Brood War would be fatal for the balance. Imagine huge Mutalisk stacks, or a roaming Protoss death ball. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2260 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: I never demanded anyone to listen to me, i demanded that people are actually open minded about discussion because that's a reasonable thing to do. Reflect on a subject, argue about it from multiple povs (you don't even have to agree with a pov to see that it has interesting, reasonable arguments to make nonetheless) and come to conclusions based on that. Saying any form of discussion about it is void because bw is already perfect or whatever reason you can come up with is incredibly lazy and destructive. Destructive for what? Not for a game design, obviously. Blizz will do whatever they want, they wont listen "BW fanatics" as me, they will not take "fanatical" opinion into consideration and if they will decide to change f.e. twitchy pathfinding (wich was good thing IMO, as the game looks like less blobby becouse of this - notable exception - scaraabs) they will do this and nobody gonna stop them. So what it is destructive for? Your need to be listened? Well, I'm not going to provide it, you like it or not. Everyone with IQ above that of shellfish can predict what changes can be done even without your sophisticated ideas. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On August 10 2016 03:07 GeckoXp wrote: Funny, as these are the two features implemented way worse in SCII than I imagined during the first rumors SCII would have them. I remember how unnerved I was by the MBS, as it wasn't making things much easier than they were in BW, probably because I was used to clicking buildings one by one. Pressing so much more buttons isn't really harder if you're used to it, it doesn't take too much to get it down to begin with, it's just a matter of dedication and concentration (which you need in both games for the late stages). However, once you are used to it, you'll find MBS annoying or in a best case scenario no improvement at all, as it has problems of its own - if slight lags occur, you either produce too much, the wrong mix or nothing at all. I don't think there's much gain in this mechanic compared to the feeling of being more precise and aware of what you're doing once you left the lower ranks. Please note, I'm leaving out the warp-feature-thing you had with Pylons and whatnot for Protoss, this works a lot differently and actually was rather making life easy for me. A minor improvement was the option to rally all buildings at once, but... not too mind boggling for non-professionals I think. Aside from that, auto-gather can be quite terrible in BW, again, once you left the lower ranks. The eco/army supply balancing needs thought, it's a very typical thing for beginners, especially Zerg users, to screw that up. All this tiny features, in the long run, will hold you down: Terran overpowering against Protoss, Protoss against Zerg and Zerg economy in general, just to list random examples that matter. The real pain is the unit selection limit, this was the go-to feature to make life easier for me, a rather slow player (around 180-210 apm in average when active) in SCII. You don't need many number hotkeys, you're free to move armies without double or tripple checking, or spending any thought on other edgy things. However, implementing this into Brood War would be fatal for the balance. Imagine huge Mutalisk stacks, or a roaming Protoss death ball. Hehe, this is really weird, because for me, MBS was a huge improvement and remained even when I switched to Zerg - which has much less buildings to select in the first place. The point of MBS is the ability to macro without looking at your base. Surely, you have to go to the base to do other things, but the big difference is that you can order units at the moment you need to do so without losing focus elsewhere. In my imagination, MBS would be even more useful in BW, because not only you need much more hatches (no inject) but also there is much more to do with army (note, I never really argued for lifting the 12-unit limit, I kinda can see how that would be a problem and I am not sure what to think about it). And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? There we would have to conclude we have a conceptual disagreement, because I don't really like this kind of thinking - I don't really know how to correctly generalize it, but it's along the lines "X is good for you, because it teaches ..." - I hate that everywhere in life, so I surely won't like it in a game I play for fun .... As I said, I am not really clear on the 12-unit question. Yeah, I like that it isn't in SC2, but I can imagine that in BW the consequences would be huuuuuge. The same with smartcast - I love it, but smartcast Defilers, really? I don't know ... But MBS, automine, general bug correction (basically everything that's illegal in pro play anyway plus the sprite thing and goon derp), those I would really love to have included in a playable BW version. | ||
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digmouse
China6327 Posts
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xccam
Great Britain1150 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:16 The_Red_Viper wrote: The objective then has to keep them playing though I think this is where the confusion is coming from. I don't really want any changes, and nor do the "bw fanatics" as you love to label us, because this ISN'T our objective. I imagine for most people in the bw section the main objective is making sure bw continues to work on modern systems and that the Pro scene is able to flourish, not that 100,000 new people take up the game. | ||
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Shinokuki
United States859 Posts
HD resolution, make units clearer ( can't tell if goons are spiders or robots), match making system, better obs interface, F2P, incentive design (rewards, awards, ranks, portraits), UMS, and other non game changing things. | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 10 2016 02:37 Sentenal wrote: Maybe I'm on a different page than everyone else, but isn't the whole point of HD Remasters to pander to nostalgia and older audiences? I imagine if they wanted to appeal to new gamers, they'd make a new game, instead of taking an old game and changing it so that it just looks like an old game. Pretty much this. The target of the remake is mainly Korea and old fans. Not to attract new players. SC2 is made to attract new players. That is why they have WCS system for SC2 and not for BW. It is great to have more players for BW but then again it is not the end of the world if the player base won't increase with the HD remaster. It is not the goal to begin with anyway. Some people here need to understand why the BW fans sound like fanatic asshole cult. They lived for over 5 years (some for over a decade) with a game that was not patched or changed at all. They treat it like a real sport with certain rules. Those rules do not change because some people keep QQing about certain stuff. They cannot tolerate that someone coming with no background about this "sport" suggesting changes that in the BW fans point of view based on their experience will make it shit. Anyway. Is it time yet for the BW vs SC2 mega thread please? | ||
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Wettis
Sweden20 Posts
On August 10 2016 03:33 digmouse wrote: Basically Blizzard can't win with either approach. Oh I think they can win, they just need to, uh basically not listen alot to most people on TL (myself excluded obviously). I was late to the BW scene (TA player back in the day) but loved it, I've also loved SC2 all the way through but can't really be arsed to play it much these days. One of the reasons I don't play alot of SC2 anymore is that while I consider the game to be decently balanced, I don't really like the way it is balanced. BW battles last longer, look cooler, feel more strategic (slower more positional) and the BW units are more interesting. Still, I don't play BW at all since I'm not interested in UMS and not hardcore enough (too little time) for the iccup ladder and such. Also no MBS and 12 unit max selection annoys me greatly (why wont anyone ever argue for the awesome superiority of wc1, where max unit selection is 4? Or dune 2?). I would LOVE brood war HD with MBS, unlimited unit selection, tasty 2d graphics with higher resolutions and modern ladder systems/matchmaking. If it was decently priced and blizzard would have the balls to let it succeed SC2 as their rts-esport of choice I think it could be hugely succesful. I agree that balance would be changed by these updates, even if no stats are altered, but that doesn't automatically mean balance would be broken. I think some bw veterans might be forgetting that bw has been balanced not only by blizzard, but also by the players and mapmakers. | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote: And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? There we would have to conclude we have a conceptual disagreement, because I don't really like this kind of thinking - I don't really know how to correctly generalize it, but it's along the lines "X is good for you, because it teaches ..." - I hate that everywhere in life, so I surely won't like it in a game I play for fun .... No, it doesn't teach as much, as it makes it easier to implement wrong actions. The logic behind it is similar to what I wrote about the MBS: Sure you can train units during a fight, but you still need to be very aware of what you are training, I could list tons of examples, just take one: For instance you fight Zerg as Protoss and order massive amounts of Zealots, 'cause the letter is branded onto your mind - meanwhile you exchange your mix against Ling/Lurk contains. Well... Same goes for workers. It's really easy to order three rounds of workers in three bases, when you really wanted to stop producing them in the first place, as you theoretically are having a perfect balance already. It really is not a huge problem for lower ranked non-Zerg, but at some point in your career you want to get rid of that. Mind you, we're already talking about things you have to improve later rather than sooner, the pay-off for somewhat experienced players gets down the gutters, the benefit for the lower ranked players / beginners in comparison is nearly not there. Therefore: I don't mind any of the mechanics, they're not doing much down the line. If you're good enough, you roflstomp MBS-Users anyway, at least that was the case for ordinary casuals for me in SCII, and I really wasn't any good in that game. If I lost, I lost due to other factors, such as not knowing units or strategies, with my mechanics giving me still a huge lead up to the diamond or whattheface thing was. Also, don't get me wrong, I never suggested you advocate smart cast or the unit selection. About the bugs: These are horrible if fixed for competitive play for the most. It really comes down to the bugs. Units like reavers would be really, really ghastly do deal with for instance, while bugging out goons wouldn't be such a large problem. Then again, maps like Blue Storm would lose a lot of attraction, because their design toys with the bugs a ton. All in all, the guy with the real long post about different game modes is spot on. The HD remake stands and falls with the active player base and new blood. All the interface option do not matter too much for a revitalisation. However, I'm very pessimistic about Blizzard and the way they organise and present this new esports thing. The original B.net 2.0 stuck with me and was the driving factor to not feel anything for the new competitive scene at all. You could ignore that SCII was not a BW, but it offered literally nothing besides the boring ladder experience. Not to mention that outstanding projects like Sandlot are for sure a thing of the past or the feeling I still have thinking about a postponed SSL, the proleague switch and whatnot. It's not that I don't look forward to it, it's more like a long six years of unbroken disappointment in a company I was a fan of. | ||
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hitthat
Poland2260 Posts
On August 10 2016 04:00 Wettis wrote: Also no MBS and 12 unit max selection annoys me greatly (why wont anyone ever argue for the awesome superiority of wc1, where max unit selection is 4? Or dune 2?). Becouse it had no PL, no progamers and nobody cares. It alone makes this question void. Limited selection is what many of us like becouse with a bad pathfinding it worked in reducing massive blobs of some units (of mutalisk f.e. - it was an art to use more than 1 stack simultanuosly). On August 10 2016 04:00 Wettis wrote: I agree that balance would be changed by these updates, even if no stats are altered, but that doesn't automatically mean balance would be broken. I think some bw veterans might be forgetting that bw has been balanced not only by blizzard, but also by the players and mapmakers. From the spectator point of view current system works for me and I am against radical changes in balance. Unlimited selection may alter it more than many would expect. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
On August 10 2016 03:32 opisska wrote: Think about no MBS and no automine as something that doesn't push your speed, by your attention to the limit.The point of MBS is the ability to macro without looking at your base. Surely, you have to go to the base to do other things, but the big difference is that you can order units at the moment you need to do so without losing focus elsewhere. [...] And how can automine be detrimental, I can't see that, really. The only thing the non-auto-mining worker does is that it stands idly around. Are you trying to suggest that being reminded to check your economy by the threat of having idle workers, is a good thing? Lower or decent BW players don't macro perfectly - far from it, they have idle workers left and right, production sitting doing nothing, 3 larva at every hatch etc. This is normal. Even pros can't macro perfectly. But don't think about it as a speed challenge. Personally, I think it is about dividing your attention. At every point in the game, you have to decide what you want to do. You have to choose where you pay your attention. You know you have 2 workers at natural doing nothing and one in the main, but you also need to check your bases and queue new workers, queue new army, hotkey existing army, send a scout out, check your upgrade status (if you think you've missed "evolution complete"), move your army across the map, send an Overlord to clear minefield 15 seconds later and so on, push away the cat that jumped on your lap and shut that curtain because the sun is shining in your face. But you have to evaluate if you are allowed to do that, because suddenly you scout the enemy 1 screen away from your main force, so you have to decide, you have to choose what are you gonna do, and what is more important to do, should you hotkey and grab reinforcements, or micro on the spot, or just take care of workers and produce more army, or push away the cat because its climbing on your keyboard, or do something else. So many choices, so little time. You see Single Building Selection and no automine as some kind of tax or chore that you have to do, like tidy up your room. I see it as a way of forcing players to make more choices in the game (choices! decision making! strategy! yay!). Of course you want to do everything, but you can't, so you have to make a swift decision. Because of those choices and preferences that people have, you end up with players that focus more on macro or on micro. Thanks to that, your every ladder game is a bit different. You may face Terran who's Marines just don't die against your Lurkerling attacks, but his macro is shit (compared to other players of the same level) so he doesn't have a lot of those immortal Marines. Or, you may play against a player that has shitton of M&M, but sometimes he let's them walk over Lurkerfields, or comes back to macro before the battle is finished. It creates different experience every time. Even when playing against same exact build order, you feel the differences, and it's awesome. With MBS, you don't have to leave the battlefield to do your basic macro stuff, and because of that, there aren't that many playstyles, because the best thing to do is to macro while you micro, and everyone does that. You can't do that in BW. | ||
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Wettis
Sweden20 Posts
On August 10 2016 04:15 hitthat wrote: From the spectator point of view current system works for me and I am against radical changes in balance. Unlimited selection may alter it more than many would expect. That is reasonable and not impossible, for me though it's clearly worth the risk. I love the esports scene and remember fondly dreamhacks, IEMs and MLGs where SC2 was a huge draw, I've also watched those old and amazing bw proleague finals with tons of spectators. I see bwHD as our best hope to get there again. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On August 10 2016 04:16 Nazara wrote: Think about no MBS and no automine as something that doesn't push your speed, by your attention to the limit. Lower or decent BW players don't macro perfectly - far from it, they have idle workers left and right, production sitting doing nothing, 3 larva at every hatch etc. This is normal. Even pros can't macro perfectly. But don't think about it as a speed challenge. Personally, I think it is about dividing your attention. At every point in the game, you have to decide what you want to do. You have to choose where you pay your attention. You know you have 2 workers at natural doing nothing and one in the main, but you also need to check your bases and queue new workers, queue new army, hotkey existing army, send a scout out, check your upgrade status (if you think you've missed "evolution complete"), move your army across the map, send an Overlord to clear minefield 15 seconds later and so on, push away the cat that jumped on your lap and shut that curtain because the sun is shining in your face. But you have to evaluate if you are allowed to do that, because suddenly you scout the enemy 1 screen away from your main force, so you have to decide, you have to choose what are you gonna do, and what is more important to do, should you hotkey and grab reinforcements, or micro on the spot, or just take care of workers and produce more army, or push away the cat because its climbing on your keyboard, or do something else. So many choices, so little time. You see Single Building Selection and no automine as some kind of tax or chore that you have to do, like tidy up your room. I see it as a way of forcing players to make more choices in the game (choices! decision making! strategy! yay!). Of course you want to do everything, but you can't, so you have to make a swift decision. Because of those choices and preferences that people have, you end up with players that focus more on macro or on micro. Thanks to that, your every ladder game is a bit different. You may face Terran who's Marines just don't die against your Lurkerling attacks, but his macro is shit (compared to other players of the same level) so he doesn't have a lot of those immortal Marines. Or, you may play against a player that has shitton of M&M, but sometimes he let's them walk over Lurkerfields, or comes back to macro before the battle is finished. It creates different experience every time. Even when playing against same exact build order, you feel the differences, and it's awesome. With MBS, you don't have to leave the battlefield to do your basic macro stuff, and because of that, there aren't that many playstyles, because the best thing to do is to macro while you micro, and everyone does that. You can't do that in BW. I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me. Again, I am not telling you that you need to like the automine- and MBS- version more, I am just telling you that I am pretty sure I would. Surely, I could practice, improve myself, get good and be able to do everything. But I don't want to do that and I don't care if some people feel superior to me because they can. | ||
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Nazara
United Kingdom235 Posts
I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me. Personally when I played BW at D+/C- level on iCCup I had around 75-85 apm as Zerg, and believe it or not, I was more of an tactician then economist. Most of my wins came from good Lurker positioning and flanks or better decision on where to strike next. Even for D+ standard (which is low and someone will call out on in) my macro was bad becasuse of my speed. But I never blamed the UI for my shortcomings, instead I tried to improve on what I was good at (and had loads of fun as well). That isn't to say I couldn't play macro game and cheesed, I don't find it fun. | ||
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On August 10 2016 04:34 opisska wrote: I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me. Again, I am not telling you that you need to like the automine- and MBS- version more, I am just telling you that I am pretty sure I would. Surely, I could practice, improve myself, get good and be able to do everything. But I don't want to do that and I don't care if some people feel superior to me because they can. Something to consider is that games exist for people with your preferences. SC2 has both features. Hell, you can even play BW against people who have similar inclinations regarding macro mechanics, and it should be a match that fits the way you want to play the game. But for the people who want a mechanically challenging and rewarding game, the options are scant. I think it's reasonable to leave them what they love. Don't you? | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On August 10 2016 04:48 Acritter wrote: Something to consider is that games exist for people with your preferences. SC2 has both features. Hell, you can even play BW against people who have similar inclinations regarding macro mechanics, and it should be a match that fits the way you want to play the game. But for the people who want a mechanically challenging and rewarding game, the options are scant. I think it's reasonable to leave them what they love. Don't you? And as I have asked many times: who is to take this away from them? Nobody is "ending BW", because that's technically impossible. So what is the problem? | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On August 10 2016 04:34 opisska wrote: I completely understand that this is the case for people who are either naturally fast or willing to invest a considerable amount of time and dedication into improving. And for those people, there is the unadulterated BW that exists and will exist. But if you are bad like me, there isn't much strategy in this decision, it's almost always better to focus on the macro, because otherwise you are just losing too much. Also, it really is a chore and it's just plain annoying to me. Again, I am not telling you that you need to like the automine- and MBS- version more, I am just telling you that I am pretty sure I would. Surely, I could practice, improve myself, get good and be able to do everything. But I don't want to do that and I don't care if some people feel superior to me because they can. I don't know how you approached the game, or what the circumstances were. Chances are not in the best manner, as you stranded here among a very special type of users, TL.net's mantra was always focussing on Korean standard play. The later you found this page, the more fanatic it was and the more it leaned towards macro oriented long-game play. BW offers more, not saying TL.net's approach was anything but very sound for highly competitive players and did feature an elite class of players giving great tipps. However, TL.net's darker side also postulate the everlasting stereotype you'd lose and lose before winning, that it takes ages "to master the game", a mystification that's hardly found elsewhere to this extent. This really annoyed me quite a bit, especially when it was repeated by casuals, who never really explored the servers, not that I can blame them after being overwhelmed by this sheer negativity. In this cases the mindset was the biggest impact on losing streaks. If you go into games with this set-in-stone belief, you're bound to lose over and over again. I witnessed a ton of newbs who became decent very fast without sacrificing their entire real life for the game - and I'm not talking about the known names like ghosta, mardow or kolll. To just be able to do enough to have fun while getting the feeling to have some form of control doesn't take more than maybe a hundred games if trained with a minor bit of reflection on the way, regardless of your style; really that's enough to have fun in the D-ranked area. I don't think you're getting a grasp over the game with 'just' MBS and auto-mine faster than in comparison to now, keeping in mind everyone else has the same tools at hand. You'll be under the impression you might be better off, but if you have someone with knowledge analyse your game, he'd find nearly the same flaws. To a higher ranked player your mistakes would look like the ones of a low tier player just a few years ago. Reasons being that you weren't spending your actions on the right locations more often than you failed to "speed up". The hardest downer in BW is the way the game punishes the slightest of mistakes. You might just slip up in one fight and the entire game looks as if you were the slow idiot, who didn't train enough, when in truth there's not much in between you and your opponent - mistakes pile up and get exponentially worse within a five minute frame. This effect is increased if you really do opt for macro games. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't the general internet usage that stops even casuals from reflecting. "Back when bla bla" you only had five hours a week on sunday to play online, you'd analyse your games over the week, or spend some minutes trying to figure out what to do online, before you even touch the game. It really feels as if this isolation helped me to increase a ton faster than the newer generation, who could just mass 15 games a row whenever they felt like it. | ||
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Sentenal
United States12398 Posts
On August 10 2016 04:55 opisska wrote: And as I have asked many times: who is to take this away from them? Nobody is "ending BW", because that's technically impossible. So what is the problem? Its becoming increasingly more and more difficult to play old games on new systems. Playing BW on modern Operating Systems come with a range of problems from "it doesn't work", to "colors randomly go crazy and invert for no reason", to stretching a 4:3 aspect ratio screen across a wide screen monitor. Some peope are even only able to play the game in Windowed mode. Others can get it fullscreen, but it will screw with their desktop resolution if they do. And then there are countless problems with how Battle.net is, and how in order to actually play games against other people, you have to wage war against your own router with port forwarding and the like. ShieldBattery has taken great steps to fixing some of these issues, but an HD Remaster would be an official release that should take an old game, and let you play it on new systems. If you take an old game, make it playable on new systems, and then start changing the fundamental mechanics of the game while they are at it, its no longer the old game on new systems, and so people are still screwed. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
Gecko: I find it interesting to read your posts, because you have interesting insights, but I fear you are simply not casual enough to understand | ||
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 10 2016 05:30 opisska wrote: Sentenal: yeah, this is a fair point. I haven't really run BW for so long that I didin't consider this difficulties. Still, the "two verisons paradigm" solves this neatly ... Gecko: I find it interesting to read your posts, because you have interesting insights, but I fear you are simply not casual enough to understand What part of "Not for casual" you do not get? The target again is Korea and old folks. The target is never to get new people on BW. It is Blizzard way to redeem their doing back in 2012. Afreeca TV already said that Blizzard is moving to support both BW and SC2 a long side as the transition in Korea was horrible. Once again the remake is not for casuals. It is just an improved version with improved graphics for Korea and old folks. The goal is not to make profit. That is why the rumors say it will be F2P. That is why they run WCS world wide for SC2 and not for BW. Each will have its own audience. Also, why the heck would Blizzard want casuals to play BW competitively when there is SC2 with WCS for that specific goal? | ||
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SomeONEx
Sweden641 Posts
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FourTwentynator
6 Posts
I was so hyped when SC2 came out.. i remember smiling at the shopclerk like a maniac when i picked it up. It took like 2k games to realize its not the same. I really wanted to like it, but it just didn't work. Crushing a maxed marine/medic composition with some banelings doesn't fell like wrecking a handfull tanks with mutas. Ive bought the expansion tho.. because it's starcraft and i needed to like it ^^ It's just not the same. Anyone who suggests changes in gameplay never truly played broodwar. Ye, I'm one of the "elitists" but im not rubbing it in your face. I'm just bitter about the situation. They have killed broodwar for no reason. We have a right to be bitter about it. I hope for compatility fixes and maybe a ladder system.. nothing more. | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19208 Posts
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FourTwentynator
6 Posts
On August 10 2016 07:13 BisuDagger wrote: We all know we will stick to whatever version Bisu is playing. Shed all your worriers and let him decide for us all. What? Bisu who? Thats the guy who dodged the last ASL? | ||
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Highgamer
1399 Posts
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Cedstick
Canada3336 Posts
On August 10 2016 07:34 Highgamer wrote: I don't even know if I want to watch me suck at BW... in HD... Fuck yeah, you do. While it'd be neat to see some very, very small changes to mix-up the meta and make some units more viable, I'd rather ere on the safe side and just go for graphical and UI/client upgrades -- don't fix what ain't actually broke. Except maybe collision detection on ramps. Fuck that shit. | ||
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Little-Chimp
Canada948 Posts
On August 10 2016 06:31 SomeONEx wrote: Another way for Blizzard to make an easy buck. God I've lost faith in them... Why can't they at least leave the one thing they did well alone? stop being a bitch and wait and see first | ||
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prOxi.swAMi
Australia3091 Posts
On August 09 2016 22:29 Dental Floss wrote: They already remade BW with better resolution, MBS, tons of UI improvements, and new balance. It's called SC2, I heard it's a good game you guys should go play it if that sounds like fun.  ??blatant disregard for mod notice | ||
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HerbMon
United States460 Posts
I guess sc2 players cant read.... User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States13968 Posts
how is your post any better...jesus wtf... | ||
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riotjune
United States3392 Posts
Let's be real here, everybody's coming into this thread with preconceived notions on what Blizzard should and should not do regarding BWHD, with the lack of empathy and not being able to see things from both sides nobody's going to be convinced and change their minds, there's no civil discourse and only bad vibes being exchanged (probably rightfully so now that we're in 2016 looking back). It's like Christians trying to have a calm and civilized discussion with Jews on the subject of Jesus, there's just no fucking way. As much as I would like Blizzard to implement some of the changes I have in mind (fix bugs like exploding siege tank, fix valk, at least remove/halve nuke's 8 supply cost for fuck's sake), their best/safest course of action right now would be to keep the status quo while updating the graphics and compatibilities with new machines. I would love to be able to play the BW I knew years ago today with updated graphics and widescreen, it's the dream. Whether Blizzard wants to keep the car on manual or automatic among other things, they can figure it out later down the line. It might even revitalize the BW scene and I'll be able to once again watch Flash vs Jaedong with Koreans screaming in the background. This is where Power Outage comes in. | ||
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hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
I don't understand how this could work out well. If it is a pseudo expansion for SC2 (same engine, same "quality of life" improvements, and all the same basic features), then it's still just SC2, and there is no new reason for the people who still like BW to care. If it truly wants to emulate BW with all it's nuances and issues that made it the game it is, won't it be too daunting? Wasn't it a major issue that SC2 was largely considered unapproachable for many people without RTS experience? Honestly, I don't expect much more than blizzard attempting to churn out a product for cheap since the assets are mostly made, and maybe host a Korean tourney or two. But this is not a "stand the test of time" kind of thing, and Blizzard it just pumping something out in the mean time, only to be swept under the rug once it is time to promote WC4. | ||
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BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES49886 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On August 10 2016 06:12 Wrath wrote: What part of "Not for casual" you do not get? The target again is Korea and old folks. The target is never to get new people on BW. It is Blizzard way to redeem their doing back in 2012. Afreeca TV already said that Blizzard is moving to support both BW and SC2 a long side as the transition in Korea was horrible. Once again the remake is not for casuals. It is just an improved version with improved graphics for Korea and old folks. The goal is not to make profit. That is why the rumors say it will be F2P. That is why they run WCS world wide for SC2 and not for BW. Each will have its own audience. Also, why the heck would Blizzard want casuals to play BW competitively when there is SC2 with WCS for that specific goal? Do you just assume all that, or do you have any Blizzard sources on these claims? | ||
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foxmeep
Australia2320 Posts
Fix the netcode so it actually plays smoothly online. Fix the hotkeys so you can actually 1a2a3a without having to have a distinct gap between keyboard and mouse clicks. | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
On topic: I doubt this HD version will be any good but i am still looking forward to it. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On August 10 2016 16:15 TaShadan wrote: I wonder why sc2 players bashing on bw are not getting temp banned while bw players ALWAYS get banned... i really miss gosugamers.net. On topic: I doubt this HD version will be any good but i am still looking forward to it. We're in on it man, the SC2 guys, Blizzard, working night and day to squeeze the last breath out of BW. Sucks you had to find out like this. | ||
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 10 2016 16:15 TaShadan wrote: I wonder why sc2 players bashing on bw are not getting temp banned while bw players ALWAYS get banned... i really miss gosugamers.net. On topic: I doubt this HD version will be any good but i am still looking forward to it. Link what kind of post do you think people should be banned for? The people being temp banned are mostly being clowns. I don't think the SC2 people you're talking about are bashing it with the same tone the people being temp banned are getting banned for. I don't think you're going to find the bw bashing equivalent of "sc2 is disgrace to human race, go to sc2 forum" "I guess sc2 players cant read...." | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
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lestye
United States4149 Posts
On August 10 2016 16:35 TaShadan wrote: I have seen a lot of posts with similar character but i do not waste my time to prove anything here. Funny how aggressive you guys are. Nothing else to do? I'm sure you have. It's a pity. I wish you had the time to waste to expose those evil doers and negligent mods . | ||
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TaShadan
Germany1965 Posts
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Wrath
3174 Posts
On August 10 2016 16:39 lestye wrote: I'm sure you have. It's a pity. I wish you had the time to waste to expose those evil doers and negligent mods . Example: On August 10 2016 00:51 The_Red_Viper wrote: I tried to insult all the people who think that "bw is sacred and if you even argue that you could change things you are blasphemous" tbh. If that failed i apologize i didn't want to "insult" only one person, he was just the prime example. Anyway the whole BW vs SC2 posts are stupid here unless they have its own mega thread. I say time to close this thread until more info OR (based on my biased perspective) limit the discussion to the BW fans as the remake is for them. SC2 players have their own game. We do not go spamming that Blizzard should do this and this so we can migrate. We simply hate SC2 and keep ourselves away from it. I think the same should happen. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
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2Pacalypse-
Croatia9489 Posts
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