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This is NOT a BW vs SC2 topic thread. Be cautious of what you post. Starting Page 26, warnings/bans will be handed out if this note is ignored. |
On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years.
but it's not like another balance doesn't exist if the UI changed. it's a matter of who is interested in that or not, and if the context is good for experimenting with that or not.
Also seriously, players who were already great with a certain balance and system will still be great if changes were made, as long as those changes aren't bad (dumb down the game). With the engine of starcraft with collision and pathing (all the good part of it) there will always be room for great control and multitasking no matter how much easier it is made, even with unlimited selection, MBS or automine and removing choke pathing difficulties or what.
(imo since blizzard has control of it, the context is bad until they have proven themselves again otherwise and BW is not where it should be risked that they prove themselves for sure T_T)
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On August 08 2016 03:52 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. but it's not like another balance doesn't exist if the UI changed. it's a matter of who is interested in that or not, and if the context is good for experimenting with that or not.
If the UI gets changed to allow even small changes or something huge like MBS only amateurs will play that version and the pro scene will never use anything except the classic BW client. Seriously, they won't touch it.
Flash told mike morhaime that it was the most complete game ever, and that means that it doesnt need that kind of new feature, and I beliewe that this is the view of the entire pro scene.
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On August 08 2016 03:52 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. but it's not like another balance doesn't exist if the UI changed. it's a matter of who is interested in that or not, and if the context is good for experimenting with that or not. Also seriously, players who were already great with a certain balance and system will still be great if changes were made, as long as those changes aren't bad (dumb down the game). With the engine of starcraft with collision and pathing (all the good part of it) there will always be room for great control and multitasking no matter how much easier it is made, even with unlimited selection, MBS or automine and removing choke pathing difficulties or what. (imo since blizzard has control of it, the context is bad until they have proven themselves again otherwise and BW is not where it should be risked that they prove themselves for sure T_T)
You don't understand. If you want to understand visit korean bw server or go to afreeca, and talk with the people.
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yeah that's the situation we're in it seems.
fine by me tbh, don't rly want blizzard to touch, they just don't understand RTS any longer lol
trutacz explain to me why you think I don't understand because I think I understand pretty good^^
ok I haven't talked to the koreans very much
but if it's a context thing, whatever I think you are right, the context is bad for change because of blizzard
and fear that it could destabilize the pro scene / established scene are well founded I guess; I just disagree that it is not possible to improve the game
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On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years.
Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction.
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On August 08 2016 03:58 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
yeah that's the situation we're in it seems.
fine by me tbh, don't rly want blizzard to touch, they just don't understand RTS any longer lol
trutacz explain to me why you think I don't understand because I think I understand pretty good^^
ok I haven't talked to the koreans very much
but if it's a context thing, whatever I think you are right, the context is bad for change because of blizzard
and fear that it could destabilize the pro scene / established scene are well founded I guess; I just disagree that it is not possible to improve the game
"its a matter of who is interested in that or not" - Broodwar is 99% in Korea 1% in Europe, if that changes even to 80-20, koreans are not interested in touching it game in terms of balance, ever.
"context is good for experimenting with that or not." - Balancing BW took years, guess if it's worth to wreck it all
Also seriously, players who were already great with a certain balance and system will still be great if changes were made, as long as those changes aren't bad (dumb down the game) - Multiple selection etc, it dumbs down THIS game. it may not dumb down the any other old game.
On August 08 2016 04:03 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction.
Have you considered the possbility that i mentioned where heart of broodwar belongs?. I can assure you that if someday that kind of remaster will see the daylight, noone will ever touch it except 2-5%. If you think more people would play that kind of game instead of "bw classic" you're just naive.
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On August 08 2016 04:03 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction.
You might as well say that nintendo should patch out wavedashing in melee.
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imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations. It's not like the pathing or other things.
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after the FF7 Remake , anything was possible 
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On August 08 2016 04:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations.
They would be right. BW is a physical game of dexterity, That's what makes it fun. It's a physical sport that is so demanding that players get injured playing it. If you "fix" the physicality it requires you've broken what makes it great. Effort having 300 APM for 40 minutes is why the game is so popular and deep.
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On August 08 2016 04:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations. It's not like the pathing or other things.
May i ask you, have you ever played broodwar? If yes, for how long
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I love the dexterity in bw, I think it would still be there no problem with MBS/automine etc. There is a ton happening in the game, battles spread over areas, clashes and scouting and things are always going on. It's a tough discussion because I guess it's unknown exactly how much it would change the game but seriously it just can't be like SC2. Imagine you put unlimited unit selection, you will still have a lot more micro to do than SC2 because the design in BW is better, units make collision, battles happen over a longer time and larger area and different areas because there is no death ball and there is defender advantage etc.
but whatever seriously I'm on your side don't trust blizzard to change it lol............. I think the proper way would be to test this ourselves with an expanded map editor make mods and test stuff... if it really is better people might start to play these mods and voila..
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On August 08 2016 04:15 trutaCz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 04:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations. It's not like the pathing or other things. May i ask you, have you ever played broodwar? If yes, for how long
yaya I don't like to play the game of medals I'm a good player very experienced thousands of hours since like 2000 I think it's more interesting if you argue or explain not ask me if I'm TOP10 player like XXXX, a good player may understand the game just as well as a top player, like some casters for example.
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On August 08 2016 04:09 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 04:03 Saechiis wrote:On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction. You might as well say that nintendo should patch out wavedashing in melee.
How hard is for you to grasp that I'm not saying Blizzard SHOULD change BW, but rather that it is a legitimate possibility given their inclination towards things that make them money. I see BW zealots fighting off ghosts whilst the overlord goes over their heads and treats the kids to MBS.
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On August 08 2016 04:22 ProMeTheus112 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 04:15 trutaCz wrote:On August 08 2016 04:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations. It's not like the pathing or other things. May i ask you, have you ever played broodwar? If yes, for how long yaya I don't like to play the game of medals I'm a good player very experienced thousands of hours since like 2000 I think it's more interesting if you argue or explain not ask me if I'm TOP10 player like XXXX, a good player may understand the game just as well as a top player, like some casters for example.
So can you answer or not, i don't understand what have you written.
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in first line is my answer to your question
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On August 08 2016 04:22 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 04:09 Dental Floss wrote:On August 08 2016 04:03 Saechiis wrote:On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction. You might as well say that nintendo should patch out wavedashing in melee. How hard is for you to grasp that I'm not saying Blizzard SHOULD change BW, but rather that it is a legitimate possibility given their inclination towards things that make them money.
You asked "why would they not do it". Don't ask if you don't want the answer! 
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Hopefully this whole HD thing will be the step to bring the old titles into current launcher for quick access, download and update.
Matchmaking, LAN latency, automated tournaments and such would be a nice plus.
Most changes to actual game would be big red minus, this is supposed to be a restoration of old title and not butchering it. There's already SC2 for all that modern stuff which works well with mission packs and whatnot, that's what makes money for them. Outside of nostalgia for old campaigns and the actual competitive play, there's no point in getting BW. Hopefully it stays true and is a bone thrown to old farts, not some lousy cashgrab for newer generations.
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On August 08 2016 04:31 Dental Floss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 04:22 Saechiis wrote:On August 08 2016 04:09 Dental Floss wrote:On August 08 2016 04:03 Saechiis wrote:On August 08 2016 03:50 trutaCz wrote:
I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. Have you considered the possibility that rather than no-one understanding but you, it's actually you that doesn't understand? It's a remaster, there's nothing keeping Blizzard from simplifying the mechanics even though it will change the game at it's core. If it means that more people will play and enjoy the game why would they not do it? You seem to be under the assumption that Blizzard is making a HD remaster for you (BW elitist) but there's nothing from Blizzard's side so far that points in that direction. You might as well say that nintendo should patch out wavedashing in melee. How hard is for you to grasp that I'm not saying Blizzard SHOULD change BW, but rather that it is a legitimate possibility given their inclination towards things that make them money. You asked "why would they not do it". Don't ask if you don't want the answer!
You might as well say that Obama is African.
+ Show Spoiler +See how this isn't an argument or an answer, just kind of a random oneliner that does nothing but confuse and divert the discussion into irrational and pointless territory. I'm out, we'll see what Blizzard wants to do with their game.
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On August 08 2016 04:10 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
imo MBS is not dumbing down, its just quality of life, like automine, it doesn't matter to me, it's one of those things that make people say RTS is about being the fastest to click rather than strategy, they're wrong but.. to prove them wrong let them build enough units without clicking twice as many times and kill them with strategy... if it doesn't involve decision making I don't care about these limitations. It's not like the pathing or other things.
It does involve decision making. To put it in simple terms: player's attention is a resource in BW - much more so than in SC2. Having more bases results in having to allocate your attention to more places due to the lack of auto-mining and MBS. It works as an inherent come-back facilitating mechanism. It makes people who have more bases to manage more prone to drops or their army getting ambushed. In SC2 it is much easier to macro remotely, while paying most of one's attention to one's army.
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EPT
