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This is NOT a BW vs SC2 topic thread. Be cautious of what you post. Starting Page 26, warnings/bans will be handed out if this note is ignored. |
On August 08 2016 01:42 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 01:31 Dental Floss wrote:On August 08 2016 01:25 trutaCz wrote:
You have SC2 with unlimited selection and BW with limited selection, if SC2 players want to play BW they have to learn it, simple as that o_o. It doesnt make sense to change the game because some guys cant handle the mechanics of BW.. I see all these guys at the gym benchpressing with like 4 plates on each side of the bar. I think that weight manufacturers should release lighter versions of those plates so I can do that too. This is such a bad analogy though. If people don't have fun with the old mechanics then that's a problem. You want a game which people enjoy. At the same time i totally can see that all these limitations and bugs make bw what it is. The best solution therefore would be two modes, one with easier mechanics, the other bw as it is now.
If you really want to select all units there's a hack for it IIRC called Oblivion or EpicSauce, check them out SC2 boys.
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If you someday jump on my level with understanding both BW and SC2 as games, maybe you will understand that BW with the new mechanics would crush the game totally, cause all the magic of the game incomes from it. Why do you even speak about BW if you completely dont understand BW?
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On August 08 2016 02:08 trutaCz wrote:
If you someday jump on my level with understanding both BW and SC2 as games, maybe you will understand that BW with the new mechanics would crush the game totally, cause all the magic of the game incomes from it. Why do you even speak about BW if you completely dont understand BW?
Maybe you should actually address what is said. That might help to have a productive discussion about things.
But sure we can also pretend that only your pov is meaningful and that your opinion is the final authority in this case. Don't post on a discussion forum though, you are wrong here.
On topic: Sure these things make bw what it is (which i said multiple times btw) but it also makes bw less accessible which is a bad thing. In a perfect world you want a very accessible game which has enough depth and "magic" for the pro scene. BW quite clearly doesn't do that though. A potential solution would be to have different modes, an "easy" mode for people who don't want to fight the ui (YES the game would be different in this mode, maybe it would be still quite good though) and the current mode for all the people who play it like that for years or people who are into these limitations.
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Im not going to explain stuff for people who dont understand lol, if they want to argue about that its up to them. People who understand BW will understand that things which are being speaked here are not good for BW. Easiest mode exist its called : SC2.
User was warned for this post
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On August 08 2016 02:22 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 02:08 trutaCz wrote:
If you someday jump on my level with understanding both BW and SC2 as games, maybe you will understand that BW with the new mechanics would crush the game totally, cause all the magic of the game incomes from it. Why do you even speak about BW if you completely dont understand BW? Maybe you should actually address what is said. That might help to have a productive discussion about things. But sure we can also pretend that only your pov is meaningful and that your opinion is the final authority in this case. Don't post on a discussion forum though, you are wrong here. On topic: Sure these things make bw what it is (which i said multiple times btw) but it also makes bw less accessible which is a bad thing. In a perfect world you want a very accessible game which has enough depth and "magic" for the pro scene. BW quite clearly doesn't do that though. A potential solution would be to have different modes, an "easy" mode for people who don't want to fight the ui (YES the game would be different in this mode, maybe it would be still quite good though) and the current mode for all the people who play it like that for years or people who are into these limitations.
If you they implemented in something that wouldn't be ranked, like unranked, I could live with that.
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On August 08 2016 02:31 trutaCz wrote:
Im not going to explain stuff for people who dont understand lol, if they want to argue about that its up to them. People who understand BW will understand that things which are being speaked here are not good for BW. Easiest mode exist its called : SC2.
Even if SC2 wouldn't have auto mining, MBS, and unlimited selection it still would be very different from BW, and don't see why it would then still be called an "easier" version.
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I shouldn't have expected that bw elitists finally are capable of actually discussing things as game design (especially in the context of modern gamers)
My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion!
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On August 08 2016 01:20 Saechiis wrote:
To me doing an update doesn't make much sense if they're going to keep the limited unit and building selection. Even if the small hardcore BW fanbase will love it, there's a lot more people who casually played BW and new players that might want to try an iconic game that would be totally put off by the archaic control and pathing.
Makes total sense. Changing resolution already changes the game drastically, even if no other changes are made. Basically they should keep the original game with some updated resolution and bug fixes, and stuff like observer mode which shows minerals/gas/supply and an updated matchmaking (B.NET 2.0 makes sense). At least that's what I'm hoping for. I'm not against balance changes either, but it's a dangerous territory to go to.
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On August 08 2016 02:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I shouldn't have expected that bw elitists finally are capable of actually discussing things as game design (especially in the context of modern gamers)
My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion!
Yes your bad for trying to discuss about things you have no knowledge
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To be fair, I don't really understand Blizzard's goals with this. It seems they are kind of nostalgic about how BW used to be great but SC2 isn't anymore, and they think restoring the big old title to today's graphics standards will revive the whole scene?
The problem I see here is that they would have to revive a whole genre, not just a title. RTS's are just not really popular anymore, due to high entry barrier and steep learning curves. They are simply too hard, compared to MOBAs and FPS's (at least SC is). BW did "create" esports, but at the time, there were fewer alternatives. With the rise of MOBAs, mostly due to them being easier to learn, I would think, more and more people started playing them, instead or RTS games. The old RTS (and BW) fans, players, still remain, but few join them, as opposed to the more successful genres.
SC2 was an attempt at renewal – it has beautiful graphics, better AI, very good pathing. These were inevitable criteria for a new game, things that held back lots of potential players from entering BW. SC2 has all this, and it is still nowhere compared to other genres' titles. Is it because SC2 is such a bad game? Unlikely.
If they remaster BW in HD, it will be as nice from a potential player's perspective as SC2 is. Only it will be more mechanically demanding and harder to play, with restrictions like selection cap. Those who used to play BW a lot will welcome this for sure, but I fail to see how it will revitalize the whole scene. In other words: what does BW have that SC2 doesn't, to win over a substantial amount of players? How would an HD BW make the RTS genre more appealing to new players than SC2?
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On August 08 2016 02:31 trutaCz wrote:
Im not going to explain stuff for people who dont understand lol, if they want to argue about that its up to them. People who understand BW will understand that things which are being speaked here are not good for BW. Easiest mode exist its called : SC2.
User was warned for this post
And i am being warned for what? Did i BM? Did i provoke?
I think i quoted it: "A potential solution would be to have different modes, an "easy" mode for people who don't want to fight the ui (YES the game would be different in this mode, maybe it would be still quite good though) and the current mode for all the people who play it like that for years or people who are into these limitations. "
On August 08 2016 02:53 Sholip wrote:
To be fair, I don't really understand Blizzard's goals with this. It seems they are kind of nostalgic about how BW used to be great but SC2 isn't anymore, and they think restoring the big old title to today's graphics standards will revive the whole scene?
The problem I see here is that they would have to revive a whole genre, not just a title. RTS's are just not really popular anymore, due to high entry barrier and steep learning curves. They are simply too hard, compared to MOBAs and FPS's (at least SC is). BW did "create" esports, but at the time, there were fewer alternatives. With the rise of MOBAs, mostly due to them being easier to learn, I would think, more and more people started playing them, instead or RTS games. The old RTS (and BW) fans, players, still remain, but few join them, as opposed to the more successful genres.
SC2 was an attempt at renewal – it has beautiful graphics, better AI, very good pathing. These were inevitable criteria for a new game, things that held back lots of potential players from entering BW. SC2 has all this, and it is still nowhere compared to other genres' titles. Is it because SC2 is such a bad game? Unlikely.
If they remaster BW in HD, it will be as nice from a potential player's perspective as SC2 is. Only it will be more mechanically demanding and harder to play, with restrictions like selection cap. Those who used to play BW a lot will welcome this for sure, but I fail to see how it will revitalize the whole scene. In other words: what does BW have that SC2 doesn't, to win over a substantial amount of players? How would an HD BW make the RTS genre more appealing to new players than SC2?
I dont think BW can be revitalized outside of korea, ever. I also think the target isnt about it
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On August 08 2016 02:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I shouldn't have expected that bw elitists finally are capable of actually discussing things as game design (especially in the context of modern gamers)
My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion!
It's really simple. Brood war wouldn't be brood war if you ask for things as multiple building selection and unlimited unit selection. This is as simple as one can put it. So there's no point in wanting to play brood war if you can't handle the UI limitations that come with it.
If "modern gamers" are desperate for brood war with changes to the core gameplay they should petition blizzard to release BW 2.0 instead of BW HD.
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On August 08 2016 02:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I shouldn't have expected that bw elitists finally are capable of actually discussing things as game design (especially in the context of modern gamers)
My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion!
So trutaCz is elitist and incapable of discussing game desing because he plays Sc2 and Bw both at high level. And this is the true problem. Most of who want to change Brood war have never truly practiced it in way that koreans and few foreingers have and then complain that it is not fun etc. I have never hit c-rank even at Iccup, but thats even more reason to appreciate the work thats needed to play like Flash or Jaedong. And for the dream scenario game with high skill celling and easy basic wont be made by hearthstone-sctoo- blizzard.
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On August 08 2016 03:08 B-royal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2016 02:36 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I shouldn't have expected that bw elitists finally are capable of actually discussing things as game design (especially in the context of modern gamers)
My bad for trying, keep the circlejerk going though, that's much more fun than discussion! It's really simple. Brood war wouldn't be brood war if you ask for things as multiple building selection and unlimited unit selection. This is as simple as one can put it. So there's no point in wanting to play brood war if you can't handle the UI limitations that come with it. If "modern gamers" are desperate for brood war with changes to the core gameplay they should petition blizzard to release BW 2.0 instead of BW HD.
You guys are all so defensive. No-one asked for Blizzard to please tear apart BW and make it into SC2 so "us noobs" can play it. You're attacking a stance no-one took and it makes it really annoying to post anything in these regions. I simply brought up the point that Blizzard is a company, companies revolve around making money. How is Blizzard going to make money off of BW HD? By catering to the relatively small BW scene or by catering to more casual audiences? I'm using critical thinking to arrive at the possibility that Blizzard is not just going to update the graphics and leave it at that. Maybe respond to that logic rather than attacking perceived enemies of the BW faith.
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I don't get why BW fans are so closedminded about anything that has "BW" in the name. It's not that someone's gonna magically take your BW from you, when all the protections were broken decades ago and running a server is pretty easy.
I would personally enjoy playing some BW, if UI modifications were done to it - it's a game that's quite different from SC2 and that makes it interesting. To make this viable however, the modifications basically need to come from Blizzard, because from someone as bad as myself, there needs to be a big playerbase enough to find players bad enough for me with a working matchmaking - and that's never gonna happen with any kind of "BW in SC2" mod. Thus, the idea of Blizzard offering, with the HD version, also a version with UI changes (unlimited selection, MBS, automining and no-derp pathfinding - while not changing other stuff), is quite compelling to me and I would easily pay money for that.
How does that hurt anyone? I don't get it. So why are people even against it?
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There are a lot of quality of life improvements that can be made to BW without even touching core mechanics like single building selection, mediocre pathfinding, lack of auto-mine, lack of smart casting, 12 unit selection limit, hotkeys, and such.
Off the top of my head:
- Option for improved toolitps. Show build times, unit size, damage type, specific damage against the three unit sizes, special tags (biological, mechanical), range, description of upgrades, and such.
- Option to show time, in-game time, and APM. We already see this with some plugins, but an official option would be good.
- Customize-able friend/foe colors. LotV added this in a patch this year.
- Color options in multiplayer lobbies. Let players choose their colors. More lobby options in general would be good too.
- Option to display control group usage.
- Chat wheel and ping wheel. This could be nice in team games.
- Unexplored fog of war changed to a dark transparent instead of totally black. I think a completely black unexplored fog of war is an unnecessary barrier for anyone trying out a map for the first time.
- More spectator/replay features.
- Show a line between a production structure and its rally point. This could be a very arguable addition, but I think its effects on gameplay are fairly minimal.
Almost none of these should affect gameplay. Some are already obtainable with plugins. Others just make the general game knowledge more accessible for new players without having to browse through manuals or websites.
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On August 08 2016 03:27 opisska wrote:
I don't get why BW fans are so closedminded about anything that has "BW" in the name. It's not that someone's gonna magically take your BW from you, when all the protections were broken decades ago and running a server is pretty easy.
I would personally enjoy playing some BW, if UI modifications were done to it - it's a game that's quite different from SC2 and that makes it interesting. To make this viable however, the modifications basically need to come from Blizzard, because from someone as bad as myself, there needs to be a big playerbase enough to find players bad enough for me with a working matchmaking - and that's never gonna happen with any kind of "BW in SC2" mod. Thus, the idea of Blizzard offering, with the HD version, also a version with UI changes (unlimited selection, MBS, automining and no-derp pathfinding - while not changing other stuff), is quite compelling to me and I would easily pay money for that.
How does that hurt anyone? I don't get it. So why are people even against it?
The problem is the people who actually spent years getting to their skill level will see no point in trying any more. Basically, they worked way too hard for nothing. That's how they see it.
When SC2 implemented auto-mining, I instantly had a bad taste in my mouth. Keeping in mind, it's a different game from Brood War and I went along with it and dealt with it. Trying to make Brood War have similar mechanics to SC2 (fixing the "limitations" of the engine, etc) is only going to destroy the high-skill player base and destroy any skill ceiling that ever existed. I would want the games to be different and stay different, not be the same.
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On August 08 2016 03:27 opisska wrote:
How does that hurt anyone? I don't get it. So why are people even against it?
Personally I'm rather open minded imagining BW being updated and even improved through both UI (even automining and maybe more) and bug fixes and even some balance changes (allowing more starting strategies for example),
however people who completely skip playing it at all because of the UI I think you should try cause it's not so hard, I mean it's manageable, this game always had good controls its just a bit old but whatever... you will miss a lot more than just a good UI to beat a good player, and that's the true problem, it is hard to play anyone other than a good player nowadays because there are very very few players in a place like ICCup and most are pretty good or really good.
Secondly most BW players distrust Blizzard entirely for good reasons so it's an extra reason for refusing or speaking against changes. Blizzard is a pretty shit company now, they grind stuff for max money, so even I am not comfortable with changes they might come up with especially in the gameplay department but even art...
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I think i need to write it as simply as possible because people dont understand: maintaining UI, selection wrecks the whole balance in the game. breaks all things which were developed for many years. Anyway none of these "dream changes" are not going to happen, because it would destroy BW in Korea and BW = Korea
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On August 08 2016 03:43 eviltomahawk wrote:There are a lot of quality of life improvements that can be made to BW without even touching core mechanics like single building selection, mediocre pathfinding, lack of auto-mine, lack of smart casting, 12 unit selection limit, hotkeys, and such. Off the top of my head: - Option for improved toolitps. Show build times, unit size, damage type, specific damage against the three unit sizes, special tags (biological, mechanical), range, description of upgrades, and such.
- Option to show time, in-game time, and APM. We already see this with some plugins, but an official option would be good.
- Customize-able friend/foe colors. LotV added this in a patch this year.
- Color options in multiplayer lobbies. Let players choose their colors. More lobby options in general would be good too.
- Option to display control group usage.
- Chat wheel and ping wheel. This could be nice in team games.
- Unexplored fog of war changed to a dark transparent instead of totally black. I think a completely black unexplored fog of war is an unnecessary barrier for anyone trying out a map for the first time.
- More spectator/replay features.
- Show a line between a production structure and its rally point. This could be a very arguable addition, but I think its effects on gameplay are fairly minimal.
Almost none of these should affect gameplay. Some are already obtainable with plugins. Others just make the general game knowledge more accessible for new players without having to browse through manuals or websites.
I agree with this post! Also, there is no scenario where blizz makes some changes and it kills BW. The game is too good to be killable and it will always be around. Maybe that means pros just play "classic" version, but it definitely will be around.
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EPT
