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On October 06 2016 02:03 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
If you guys would implement only ONE UMS map next patch. Make it Team Micro Arena. Hands down one of the best UMS maps to come out of StarCraft. I remember playing that with all my then-active BW friends and we always had a blast playing it.
There are so many!
I forget which ones were good.
Some versions were trash.
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On October 05 2016 23:59 tofucake wrote:
Yeah I remember bnet being like 60% social, 20% ums, and 20% melee games
the social aspect would remain even with a ladder/ranking system, having a main chat lobby where everyone is together is great. dont think thats gonna change.
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On October 05 2016 23:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2016 15:05 TT1 wrote:On October 05 2016 11:47 KwarK wrote:
I'm actually pretty fine with there not being stats or anything like that. It's so much of a smaller, tighter community now that I feel like introducing those might bring excessive competition into the friendly bw we're playing. I like just playing a dude without worrying about rank. na we need to have stats, bw ladder wouldnt feel the same otherwise. having a goal while you're laddering is always fun. Back in 2006 or so before I discovered the PGT ladder I used to just hang out in public channels on the Europe server and chat, watch replays and play casual games with the dudes who were on every night like I was. There were no ranks and your public wins/losses didn't mean anything. It was much less competitive, you didn't really have a feel for how good you were vs how good someone else was. Sure, there were people who beat you or who you beat, but there wasn't a metric to judge that by. Shield Battery right now feels like being back in Brood War GBR-1. And although iccup has its advantages, and certainly made me a better player, it was never social in the way that bw used to be for me. I don't know if I'm explaining it well but hopefully other people remember the same experience.
I know what you mean, games these days just have you sit at a splash screen, hit a button, wait for it to throw you into a match or something similar. You go through it and once its over you hit the button again and repeat until you get bored, and the people you played with might as well have been bots/AI. It's hard to describe, but there's some sort of disconnect in that process which feels apathetic and drone-like, where you're kind of just 'all right this is fine i guess meh' instead of having a genuine desire to play.
My fondest memories from days of old was going through the join menu or one of the public chat channels and finding a UMS or 1v1 obs/play lobby i could rejoin after every game with the same people and spend a whole afternoon into evening, just having fun, talking about random stuff while we waiting for slots to fill and laughing at when someone messed up horribly and we had to remake (impossible scenarios anyone?). It felt like you actually wanted to play when you joined a game - after all you selected that particular one to join out of the whole list, and the other people in there did too.
On October 06 2016 02:03 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
If you guys would implement only ONE UMS map next patch. Make it Team Micro Arena. Hands down one of the best UMS maps to come out of StarCraft. I remember playing that with all my then-active BW friends and we always had a blast playing it.
yes please team micro arena and random micro arena were some of the most fun maps i ever played.
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On October 06 2016 01:31 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2016 15:35 Jealous wrote:If ladder is not ranked by Elo or Glicko2, can it be a statistic that is accessible?  The design is custom, but it is very similar to both Elo and Glicko in many ways. I don't know what the presentation will ultimately look like (that's up to UI), but the ratings of yourself and others should be prominent.
Sweet, all I wanted to hear Thanks.
EDIT: Besides the first UMS map obviously being FS obs mode, I am casting my vote for Micro Tournament. Actual applicable game skills on many of the courses + make your own??? Perfect for practicing Dragoon vs. Vulture or whatever you need to work on. None of these fairy UMS pls.
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Norway28695 Posts
if the matchmaking doesn't count towards rating then people won't get the rating they should have and then the matchmaking will be fairly useless. Obviously you should still be able to play unranked games through simply creating a lobby or asking in the main chat.. I think it's very possible that the matchmaking / ladder doesn't end up being used all that much because of ladder anxiety-but there's no way you can have matchmaking with pairing people with similar ranks combined with matchmaking that does not rank you. I guess in theory you can have achieved 1700 rating and you wanna play someone around your skill level but without worrying about losing your ranking, either cause you're tired or don't wanna care that much or feel like offracing, but then won't it be just as easy to create a game in the lobby (friendly 1v1 I have 1400 points) or ask around in the chat (hey I have 1400 points, anybody wanna play?)?
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On October 06 2016 08:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if the matchmaking doesn't count towards rating then people won't get the rating they should have and then the matchmaking will be fairly useless. Obviously you should still be able to play unranked games through simply creating a lobby or asking in the main chat.. I think it's very possible that the matchmaking / ladder doesn't end up being used all that much because of ladder anxiety-but there's no way you can have matchmaking with pairing people with similar ranks combined with matchmaking that does not rank you. I guess in theory you can have achieved 1700 rating and you wanna play someone around your skill level but without worrying about losing your ranking, either cause you're tired or don't wanna care that much or feel like offracing, but then won't it be just as easy to create a game in the lobby (friendly 1v1 I have 1400 points) or ask around in the chat (hey I have 1400 points, anybody wanna play?)?
Well I was thinking about it this way: you select "ranked" or "unranked" (with some appropriate icon a la wulfenstein like a pacifier for unranked) and it would still take your rank into account but would match you with other players that chose the unranked MM option. I feel like this would be great for warm-up games, no pressure noob games getting used to ladder, and drunken games. Hosted games could be great if people posted their Elo as you suggest, but experience on ICCup shows that people are often lax to do that if not outright lying. I still think unranked MM would be something useful to implement, while custom lobbies would have UMS/Obs/Fastest/BGH.
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On October 06 2016 09:01 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 08:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if the matchmaking doesn't count towards rating then people won't get the rating they should have and then the matchmaking will be fairly useless. Obviously you should still be able to play unranked games through simply creating a lobby or asking in the main chat.. I think it's very possible that the matchmaking / ladder doesn't end up being used all that much because of ladder anxiety-but there's no way you can have matchmaking with pairing people with similar ranks combined with matchmaking that does not rank you. I guess in theory you can have achieved 1700 rating and you wanna play someone around your skill level but without worrying about losing your ranking, either cause you're tired or don't wanna care that much or feel like offracing, but then won't it be just as easy to create a game in the lobby (friendly 1v1 I have 1400 points) or ask around in the chat (hey I have 1400 points, anybody wanna play?)? Well I was thinking about it this way: you select "ranked" or "unranked" (with some appropriate icon a la wulfenstein like a pacifier for unranked) and it would still take your rank into account but would match you with other players that chose the unranked MM option. I feel like this would be great for warm-up games, no pressure noob games getting used to ladder, and drunken games. Hosted games could be great if people posted their Elo as you suggest, but experience on ICCup shows that people are often lax to do that if not outright lying. I still think unranked MM would be something useful to implement, while custom lobbies would have UMS/Obs/Fastest/BGH.
This is basically what SC2 has right now, isnt it?
But that only works if you have enough players. If the player numbers are not consistently high enough this system will only be unnecessary overkill.
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On October 06 2016 02:03 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
If you guys would implement only ONE UMS map next patch. Make it Team Micro Arena. Hands down one of the best UMS maps to come out of StarCraft. I remember playing that with all my then-active BW friends and we always had a blast playing it.
+1 to this, seriously the best map ever.
I don't know how difficult it is to implement this game mode compared to the others though.
@ZoW I totally agree with you ZoW, match-making the feature I probably care for less than any other, and probably I'd prefer if it was not implemented at all, for the reasons you mentioned. You just don't meet and get to know people in games like Dota, Rocket League, even SC2... But like here I am on SB, and have a good idea of the way that at least 50 people here behave and act, and it's just a nice community feeling.
There is no reason in my eyes why ladder and match-making need to be combined together. Stats keeping can quite easily be done imo... Iccup ladder is one of the worst systems ever devised from a mathematical standpoint, and it still gets a job done. There's chess ELO and many other systems which imo shouldn't be difficult to implement, and would only apply to certain game modes like melee.
Currently everyone is asking other people how good people are, and then people try to reply with iccup ratings that they don't even know, since it's been years since they've played, etc. And maybe I'm a bit of a pessimist, but people on iccup are already complaining about how long games take to find, heck there's only 90 people who are B- or higher. Even if everyone from iccup somehow switched, matchmaking would still take a really long time for some people.
Yeah so I dunno, I guess I don't see matchmaking as all that important. Then again, I'm probably biased since I'm looking at what would enhance my own experience, and not looking at the super long term goal of SB.
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United States43071 Posts
I don't know that find match/join game/create game, play game, repeat is necessarily what I want out of the new server. But for me this whole exercise is just a nostalgia fix. But I think I was happier with bw before ladders. Why bother playing the game of your life if you can't /f m guys you have to see this replay when the game is over
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I don't see why you guys are thinking that matchmaking will somehow tarnish YOUR experience if that's not something you want to do. I feel like if you can have matchmaking running in the background while it tries to find someone your skill level, you can still socialize and check the lobby list and all of that. If you don't want to use matchmaking, then don't? Clearly there are plenty of you out there, just create lobbies, stay in general chat, talk to each other, whatever.
Also, specifically to Kwark, people made friends on ICCup in clans, groups of old friends and associations through them, I've even befriended people I played on ladder. I feel like you're trying to imply that matchmaking = no more e-friends evar, which is simply not true.
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why not have both? a huge chatroom that keeps everyone together if they so wish (needs to be moderated though) and matchmaking. we can do both in terms of how we want to find games.
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United States12237 Posts
On October 06 2016 09:01 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 08:12 Liquid`Drone wrote:
if the matchmaking doesn't count towards rating then people won't get the rating they should have and then the matchmaking will be fairly useless. Obviously you should still be able to play unranked games through simply creating a lobby or asking in the main chat.. I think it's very possible that the matchmaking / ladder doesn't end up being used all that much because of ladder anxiety-but there's no way you can have matchmaking with pairing people with similar ranks combined with matchmaking that does not rank you. I guess in theory you can have achieved 1700 rating and you wanna play someone around your skill level but without worrying about losing your ranking, either cause you're tired or don't wanna care that much or feel like offracing, but then won't it be just as easy to create a game in the lobby (friendly 1v1 I have 1400 points) or ask around in the chat (hey I have 1400 points, anybody wanna play?)? Well I was thinking about it this way: you select "ranked" or "unranked" (with some appropriate icon a la wulfenstein like a pacifier for unranked) and it would still take your rank into account but would match you with other players that chose the unranked MM option. I feel like this would be great for warm-up games, no pressure noob games getting used to ladder, and drunken games. Hosted games could be great if people posted their Elo as you suggest, but experience on ICCup shows that people are often lax to do that if not outright lying. I still think unranked MM would be something useful to implement, while custom lobbies would have UMS/Obs/Fastest/BGH.
This is similar to what SC2 does (in SC2 though it has a separate hidden matchmaking rating for unranked) and due to the relatively small playerbase, ranked and unranked have to be in a shared matchmaking pool. We're not going to have the same numbers that SC2 does, so I'm averse to having ranked and unranked be shared due to collusion concerns, general perception, and varying expectations of tryhardness. A separate Unranked queue might be okay but the match quality is going to vary a lot more than Ranked, and it's probably only worth doing after we get a pretty broad foundation. It's going to really depend on the participation numbers. It might just feel more neighborly to organize matches manually when you're not playing ranked, we'll see.
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On October 06 2016 12:40 FortyOne wrote:
why not have both? a huge chatroom that keeps everyone together if they so wish (needs to be moderated though) and matchmaking. we can do both in terms of how we want to find games.
exactly. if you dont wanna ladder then just find games on the chat channel.. or by using the create/join feature (like we've been doing).
i eventually wanna start streaming BW again, having a ladder/MM system would make things a lot easier. i dont really wanna spend ~20 mins sitting in a chat channel just to find a game (because ppl are dodging most of the time. i dont have an issue with that but i do wanna find competitive games as fast as possible).
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On October 06 2016 12:29 Jealous wrote:
I don't see why you guys are thinking that matchmaking will somehow tarnish YOUR experience if that's not something you want to do. I feel like if you can have matchmaking running in the background while it tries to find someone your skill level, you can still socialize and check the lobby list and all of that. If you don't want to use matchmaking, then don't? Clearly there are plenty of you out there, just create lobbies, stay in general chat, talk to each other, whatever.
Also, specifically to Kwark, people made friends on ICCup in clans, groups of old friends and associations through them, I've even befriended people I played on ladder. I feel like you're trying to imply that matchmaking = no more e-friends evar, which is simply not true.
I agree. I met some really awesome people in BW on iccup when I played ladder. I am still friends with a couple of them today and talk with them all the time.
Don't see how match making is bad at all. I look forward to when it comes to shield battery with ranking :D
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United States43071 Posts
On October 06 2016 15:13 TT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 12:40 FortyOne wrote:
why not have both? a huge chatroom that keeps everyone together if they so wish (needs to be moderated though) and matchmaking. we can do both in terms of how we want to find games. exactly. if you dont wanna ladder then just find games on the chat channel.. or by using the create/join feature (like we've been doing). i eventually wanna start streaming BW again, having a ladder/MM system would make things a lot easier. i dont really wanna spend ~20 mins sitting in a chat channel just to find a game (because ppl are dodging most of the time. i dont have an issue with that but i do wanna find competitive games as fast as possible).
As long as you don't get too good I'll play bo50s with you on the weekends.
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On October 06 2016 15:38 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2016 15:13 TT1 wrote:On October 06 2016 12:40 FortyOne wrote:
why not have both? a huge chatroom that keeps everyone together if they so wish (needs to be moderated though) and matchmaking. we can do both in terms of how we want to find games. exactly. if you dont wanna ladder then just find games on the chat channel.. or by using the create/join feature (like we've been doing). i eventually wanna start streaming BW again, having a ladder/MM system would make things a lot easier. i dont really wanna spend ~20 mins sitting in a chat channel just to find a game (because ppl are dodging most of the time. i dont have an issue with that but i do wanna find competitive games as fast as possible). As long as you don't get too good I'll play bo50s with you on the weekends.
pfft, pvp blows
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I'm certainly looking forward to the match making being implemented. How do you stream for sb? Or is it the same process of setting up a windowed mode stream?
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On October 07 2016 00:14 Dazed_Spy wrote:
I'm certainly looking forward to the match making being implemented. How do you stream for sb? Or is it the same process of setting up a windowed mode stream?
It's actually really simple through OBS. I set one Scene to be window capture of Firefox (SB), and one Scene to Brood War. How I set it up is I launched BW through SB, then alt-tabbed, created a new Scene, added a window capture, chose Brood War. It automatically detected the whole game, didn't need to do desktop top left corner or anything else complicated. Scale to fit, put it on the bottom of the list of anything else you might want to include (music, webcam, stream name, etc.) and that's Scene 2. I set Scene 1 to be hotkey "+" next to the numpad and Scene 2 to be "-" above it. Streaming SB on +, during the loading screen when it has those funny messages under the icons of the player and the map, I press "-" and it switches to Brood War view and automatically recognizes BW as soon as it launches into game. Pretty fucking sweet, and super easy. Also, the potential for stream quality is much higher than the defaults on MCA (if you set the quality to be higher, of course).
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And just to clarify a bit further, you can use game capture for ShieldBattery, which should be more efficient than doing window capture as you might have otherwise. You have to swap between sources when the game starts though (if you're using OBS Classic, the scene switcher plugin can do this for you easily. We're also planning on providing better integration to do this automatically on OBS Studio, but that hasn't been implemented yet).
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how will the map making work for SB? can you create and host any .scx like traditional battle.net, or is there going to be a curated list of bot-hosted melee/ums maps? i see people talking about which ums maps to add for the next phase of the beta but i understand that might just be for purposes of the beta test, and not reflective of the plans for the release version of SB.
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EPT
