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On December 01 2015 16:52 Jealous wrote:
So, new season is up and functional; ICCup.Face is messaging on auto that new map pack is out. I'm not going to download it, so can we get an update on what the final decision was? Since the thread was made for the purpose of discussing this and all.
http://iccup.com/en/starcraft/content/news/new_map_pack.html
heartbeat
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On December 01 2015 17:37 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2015 16:52 Jealous wrote:
So, new season is up and functional; ICCup.Face is messaging on auto that new map pack is out. I'm not going to download it, so can we get an update on what the final decision was? Since the thread was made for the purpose of discussing this and all. http://iccup.com/en/starcraft/content/news/new_map_pack.htmlheartbeat
Word. Was definitely my favorite of the pack.
Was LT removed? xD
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Switching to Fish. Well played Face.
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So much for 'were interested in community feed back'.
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i'm curious, why do you guys actually like lost temple so much compared to all of the other map options?
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On December 03 2015 08:41 -NegativeZero- wrote:
i'm curious, why do you guys actually like lost temple so much compared to all of the other map options?
I hate lost temple (as a protoss anyway)... I do not normally play it but I would rather keep it in the pack for nostalgia's sake...
Or I can just play terran on the map I guess...
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On November 23 2015 01:14 PhilipJayFry wrote:
Why does this drama has to arise all the time when a map will be removed from the ladder-maps? I was involved in making the iCCup mappack few years ago, and we had official numbers of played ladder games per season per map. Even when we wanted to remove maps that had ZERO to max. 3 games PER SEASON people freaked out when we just came up with the idea of removing it. This is really silly, because we need a "balanced" mappack, which means alot of maps that get played equally often. Or we will end up playing FS and Python all the time, no matter what is in MOTW.
This is not about iCCup being disrespectful to the history of BW, it is about keeping the game interesting in our present gaming experience. Also, iCCup won't remove LT from the world wide web, so you are still free to play any version of it, just not as official ladder game, since (almost) nobody does that anyways. Lets give space to the present and future of BW and not hold on the past.
That being said, I also would like to know why it is necessary to remove maps from the Non-Ladder folder. It doesn't hurt to have them all in one place, so we don't have to search the web for the up-to-date versions. It just leads to bloated up download folders, because several different versions will go around on the abyss. If you want to keep the package size low, how about splitting the downloadable mappack file in an "Official Ladder Mappack" and "Non-Ladder Mappack"? This would fix it in my opinion.
true!!!!
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Show must go on!
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/closed-threads/499595-bring-lost-temple-back-to-iccup-ladder
Face got answer for every complain: that I'm troll, Birdie's stats are false (he removed that image where I posted to show it's 3rd most played map, that I need to banned for my BM, that he will bring it back if REAL PLAYERS COMMUNITY (sic) will ask for it, so it means we are who voted 80% for return are not players but bunch of nonamers here who don't deserve to be listened. Also we learnt that our beloved Admin is gosu - 1x1 A- and 2x2 A+ which is suspicious. Whatever... I hope your actions won't make you as a true disgrace for best RTS game ever. I'm done here, Goodbye.
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Lost temple may be imbalanced(most maps are a little even fs) but it has significant history if you have played brood war as long as i have. Removing lt has solved no problems but only made more. It has alienated a player base who enjoy this map. I haven't played lt in years but i understand that some people still play it and i respect it's history.
Funny they replaced lt with this heartbeat map which is just as imbalanced and heavily t favored. The map wasnt professionally edited and the mineral paths do not have the enhanced mining paths that most professionaly made maps have. I wouldnt be suprised the rate of return on gathering minerals differs greatly depending on the spawning point.
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About the TL thread, that was just a pre-ann topic to communicate with a funny mistery poll www.iccup.com The decision about replacing LT with Heartbeat was already taken before to create that and even if Heartbeat wasn't the first choice we would have added that map, because the 66 people using the poll are not the entire community...
Admin admits this entire thread was insincere. http://iccup.com/starcraft/community/thread/820359/page1.html
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Incidentally his allegation that my statistics are incomplete is false, they are updated every hour and taken from iCCup's website itself (by checking every single 1v1 match played which counts for ladder points).
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On December 05 2015 02:36 SolaR- wrote:
Lost temple may be imbalanced(most maps are a little even fs) but it has significant history if you have played brood war as long as i have. Removing lt has solved no problems but only made more. It has alienated a player base who enjoy this map. I haven't played lt in years but i understand that some people still play it and i respect it's history.
Funny they replaced lt with this heartbeat map which is just as imbalanced and heavily t favored. The map wasnt professionally edited and the mineral paths do not have the enhanced mining paths that most professionaly made maps have. I wouldnt be suprised the rate of return on gathering minerals differs greatly depending on the spawning point.
Heartbeat was edited by Freakling, who is by far the most knowledgeable BW mapmaker around today. He has done extensive research on how mining works and has written a comprehensive article on resource placement, balancing, and debugging. So your accusation is simply false.
(For the record he has found mining problems in several Korean maps, so just because maps are "pro maps" doesn't necessarily mean the mining is perfectly balanced.)
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Some clarifications:
- We have NOT removed LT from the iCCup Map Pack, it's still on the non-ladder maps and you can play whenever u want.
- We never asked in this thread to choose what map will replace LT, but what is the mistery map who will replace LT for you.
- Birdie's stats are evidently incomplete missing all the 2v2 games excluding all the related maps which are mostly non played for 1v1 and totally not counted on his stats.
Do you guys think people play FS, Pyth or even LT because these are the best map? People play them just coz these are the most familiar. The more you play a map the more you improve and refine your gaming on it, this is a normal process.
Sometimes removing an old map (the oldest in this case) is a good choice, cause the games played in this map will be split in the others.
With Gaia it worked good, will see in the next three months what will happen.
Don't you agree to wait if changes are better or worst before to start complaining in a single direction?
This will be probably my last post in this thread, I said what I wanted to say and I'm not going to answer trolls, answer them is their power.
My best regards guys!
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Birdie's stats are evidently incomplete missing all the 2v2 games excluding all the related maps which are mostly non played for 1v1 and totally not counted on his stats.
I don't include the 2v2 stats, correct. I never claimed to. I don't know what the second half of your sentence means, but I have all the 1v1 matches which count for ladder points in my statistics, from seasons 37 and 38.
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On December 05 2015 16:04 iCCup.Face wrote:
Some clarifications:
- We have NOT removed LT from the iCCup Map Pack, it's still on the non-ladder maps and you can play whenever u want.
- We never asked in this thread to choose what map will replace LT, but what is the mistery map who will replace LT for you.
- Birdie's stats are evidently incomplete missing all the 2v2 games excluding all the related maps which are mostly non played for 1v1 and totally not counted on his stats.
Do you guys think people play FS, Pyth or even LT because these are the best map? People play them just coz these are the most familiar. The more you play a map the more you improve and refine your gaming on it, this is a normal process.
Sometimes removing an old map (the oldest in this case) is a good choice, cause the games played in this map will be split in the others.
With Gaia it worked good, will see in the next three months what will happen.
Don't you agree to wait if changes are better or worst before to start complaining in a single direction?
This will be probably my last post in this thread, I said what I wanted to say and I'm not going to answer trolls, answer them is their power.
My best regards guys!
It was literally you that claimed even the mystery map wasnt actually up for our feedback, but was previously chosen. I already quoted you on this.
The rest of your post ranges from the irrelevant (you can play it on non ladder!) to the absurd (its good somehow (???) if people play other maps!) to outright misinformation (claiming birdie gave incomplete stats).
And all of that crap still misses the other key point: Whether you came asking for community feed back on removing LT or not-- you should have, and did receive feed back, and are still here debating about how your decision, that no one supports, is a great idea. Embarrassing.
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On December 05 2015 09:01 -NegativeZero- wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2015 02:36 SolaR- wrote:
Lost temple may be imbalanced(most maps are a little even fs) but it has significant history if you have played brood war as long as i have. Removing lt has solved no problems but only made more. It has alienated a player base who enjoy this map. I haven't played lt in years but i understand that some people still play it and i respect it's history.
Funny they replaced lt with this heartbeat map which is just as imbalanced and heavily t favored. The map wasnt professionally edited and the mineral paths do not have the enhanced mining paths that most professionaly made maps have. I wouldnt be suprised the rate of return on gathering minerals differs greatly depending on the spawning point. Heartbeat was edited by Freakling, who is by far the most knowledgeable BW mapmaker around today. He has done extensive research on how mining works and has written a comprehensive article on resource placement, balancing, and debugging. So your accusation is simply false. (For the record he has found mining problems in several Korean maps, so just because maps are "pro maps" doesn't necessarily mean the mining is perfectly balanced.)
Map is still horribly imbalanced. I didn't know I was critiquing a god. I apologize.
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I just counted the number of people who have posted in this thread and split them into groups. (The number of i’s are the number of posts they have made)
People who don’t support the admins decision
+ Show Spoiler +Outscar iiiiiiii
mca64Launcher_ iii
[sc1f]eonzerg ii (not certain of his opinion)
Chrisolo ii (says “LT is imbalanced. Yes that is a fact, but everyone knows this fact.. so if there are ladder games on it, anyone involved should be fine with them.”)
Flashftw i
vOdToasT i
Jealous iiiiiiii (not certain of his opinion for 3 posts, but in post 4 after seeing the map stats he is clear he wants LT. But in post 5 he says “FS and Python are a necessary aspect of the ladder experience” not mentioning LT. However in post 6 he says he isn’t going to download the pack presumably in protest so his opinion is clear now)
kogeT ii
Dazed_Spy iiiiii
Birdie iiiii
Piste iiii (not certain of his opinion until post 4 after seeing the map stats he says “imo LT, Python and FS are maps that should be permanently on the map pool considering their fame and how much they've been played.)
SolaR- iiiii
BLinD-RawR i
HaFnium i (though he says “I hate lost temple (as a protoss anyway)... I do not normally play it but I would rather keep it in the pack for nostalgia's sake”
People who do support the admins decision
+ Show Spoiler +f10eqq i (says “LT is horribly imbalanced and shouldn't be part of any ladder that's trying to represent actual skill.”)
puppykiller ii (not certain of his opinion) (he does say “In response to the more obnoxious posters; Yall need to shut the fuck up and appreciate the work iCCup does. This is non-profit, they don't owe you shit. If you are gonna ask something of them you better do it politely.”
ninazerg i (says “Yes, throw Lost Temple into the wood chipper.”)
PhilipJayFry i
iCCup.Face iii
cele iiiii
CardinalAllin iii (I haven’t actually given my opinion yet, its more nuanced but overall I don’t mind that LT was removed and am happy if it stays non ladder)
-NegativeZero- iii (says “LT should go, by modern standards it's simply a bad map. it's extremely positionally imbalanced,” “I'd also support removing FS and python sometime in the (near) future”)
GeckoXp ii (not certain of his opinion)
Crystaldrag ii
Freakling iii (says “If LT has better statistics of one sort or another, that is only because it has positional imbalances so severe that they in many cases just beat out any racial imbalances”)
AmatistA i
People who haven’t said either way
+ Show Spoiler +Endymion ii
Castelemg i
Terranzerg i
Iamho i
DarkNetHunter i
razorsuKe ii
CooDu i
JieXian i
c3rberUs i
xccam i
iloveav i
B-royal i
Dumbledore i
Totals:
14 people who don’t support the admins decision
12 people who do support the admins decision
13 people who haven’t said either way
Conclusion: Of the people that expressed an opinion, it’s basically a 50/50 split. And a third of the people haven’t said either way.
Of the people that haven’t said either way, many of them were comments that were happy with the new map. These people are significant because they have seen the thread, seen that LT was getting removed and didn’t care enough to say something.
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Just letting you know (CardinalAllin) that my decision to refrain from choosing a particular side is due to the fact that I am new to the scene. I have no history or connection with lost temple. Truth be told, I don't care much about ladder maps at all, I just want to have balanced maps that are allowed to stay for a sufficiently long time in the map pool to explore details and provide stability.
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B-royal, I would say your comment unwittingly bumps you into the DO support admins decision group then.
So thats 14 vs 13 now.
For my own personal curiosity, I encourage everyone else in group 3 (people who haven't said either way) to pick a side, and lurkers to voice their opinion too.
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Well you could interpret it that way, but I'd prefer to just stay neutral since I don't really support the decision to remove lost temple when there's clearly a lot of backlash 
Promoting play for a map could be done by only using a single map as map of the week (as is currently the case). Furthermore I think that there were other, much less popular maps, that could have been considered to be removed first.
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EPT
