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On November 24 2015 14:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 11:44 iCCup.Face wrote: Lost Temple (map since 1999) is a very good map and I personally played and loved it a lot. The best pro game I've ever seen was played on Gaia (map since 2005) but we still removed it, now is the turn of LT.
A day will come the time to be removed for FS and Python too.
Leave space to newer maps! If you want room for newer maps, get rid of Gemlong, tau cross or longinus. All old maps, all less played than Lost temple, all have balance issues. That picture posted is incomplete. Here are the least played maps on iCCup this season:
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Why not just remove least played maps?
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Why remove any maps ... ?
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what about making a test for the next season remove for the first two weeks fs and python,^^
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On November 24 2015 22:00 kogeT wrote: Why remove any maps ... ? Someone wrote there was a cap of 50 maps on the server becouse of some kind of technical matter.
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Just saw this. Just want to clarify some points: I am currently reworking saryesik so that it is reflected across the y axis. This is it in it's current state. This wil result in less muta-favored main mineral lines.
Also, Frozen Canal has creep on it's islands. The creep does not appear in the map preview. + Show Spoiler + Also at it's natural there is a floor trap, so only zerg are able to expand there faster.
The red box shows where the floor trap is. If fact, zerg dont even need an overlord to expand, they can go put the hatchery down no problem. And here are terran and protoss... + Show Spoiler +
Perhaps Face can make some notation in the OP?
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On November 24 2015 16:26 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 14:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 11:44 iCCup.Face wrote: Lost Temple (map since 1999) is a very good map and I personally played and loved it a lot. The best pro game I've ever seen was played on Gaia (map since 2005) but we still removed it, now is the turn of LT.
A day will come the time to be removed for FS and Python too.
Leave space to newer maps! If you want room for newer maps, get rid of Gemlong, tau cross or longinus. All old maps, all less played than Lost temple, all have balance issues. That picture posted is incomplete. Here are the least played maps on iCCup this season: Jesus. When you have all of these options, and iccup staff still insist on removing a played and well liked map, it brings to mind all the previous debacles (like ip banning entire cities) iccup has been responsible for. How can one group of people be this incompetent?
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Yeah... I don't understand this urgent need to get rid of LT. It is a classic map and it has earned its place. We could get rid of Desertec, eddy, tornado, resonance, toad stone, or anything else on that list above me. Most of those maps were just a flash in a pan. Besides othello/medusa/outsider/fortress
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I've never seen anyone ever played a game on Chain Reaction, + Show Spoiler + that map is terran graveyard.
Toad Stone + Show Spoiler + and Eddy + Show Spoiler + are new maps which were added last or maybe 2 season ago and I will say it's unfair to remove them that fast. Tornado + Show Spoiler + is also highly outdated and collected dust. Funny to see how popular is HBR (aka Terranbreak Ridge)+ Show Spoiler +, look at PvT rate: 61%. What about getting rid of Mist, that map played only once in old BJ Sonic Starleague and it's unattractive simple design with close rush distance, annoying Outsider type of mineral formations. + Show Spoiler +
Removing 3rd most played map to replace with one of those experimental maps is pure craziness. Most newbies started to learn and ladder properly due to LT and removal of it is disrespect also for oldschoolers. So many goddamn options, but admins' being stubborn for no reason. Players know balance issues of it but still begging to keep it for sake of memory and it's a classic with so many famous games. Lost Fucking Temple 4ever!
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LT should go, by modern standards it's simply a bad map. it's extremely positionally imbalanced, impossible to wall, the ramp at the lower left is awkwardly placed due to lack of modern inverted ramps, and the aesthetics are kind of boring compared to what mapmakers are capable of today.
on a somewhat related note i'd also support removing FS and python sometime in the (near) future, just for the sake of shaking up the meta a bit, and encouraging more people to try out some of the less known maps. and because the ensuing shitstorm would be hilarious.
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On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2015 16:26 Birdie wrote:On November 24 2015 14:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 11:44 iCCup.Face wrote: Lost Temple (map since 1999) is a very good map and I personally played and loved it a lot. The best pro game I've ever seen was played on Gaia (map since 2005) but we still removed it, now is the turn of LT.
A day will come the time to be removed for FS and Python too.
Leave space to newer maps! If you want room for newer maps, get rid of Gemlong, tau cross or longinus. All old maps, all less played than Lost temple, all have balance issues. That picture posted is incomplete. Here are the least played maps on iCCup this season: Jesus. Don't worry, I'm here.
On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote: When you have all of these options, and iccup staff still insist on removing a played and well liked map, it brings to mind all the previous debacles (like ip banning entire cities) iccup has been responsible for. How can one group of people be this incompetent?
It isn't the same group as before. It is another group. Few of them. Who actually run something, even if it is low quality at times. Meanwhile, your numbers are from another person who tried to replace ICCup. For something like two years. And you're posting on a page, which runs a series of tournaments, for which they don't provide coverage. And use an outdated system. And which constantly ignored community feedback. Whereas this topic asks for feedback.
TL;DR: in this current state swallow what you get or gtfo. Or do it better.
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On November 26 2015 05:09 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 16:26 Birdie wrote:On November 24 2015 14:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 11:44 iCCup.Face wrote: Lost Temple (map since 1999) is a very good map and I personally played and loved it a lot. The best pro game I've ever seen was played on Gaia (map since 2005) but we still removed it, now is the turn of LT.
A day will come the time to be removed for FS and Python too.
Leave space to newer maps! If you want room for newer maps, get rid of Gemlong, tau cross or longinus. All old maps, all less played than Lost temple, all have balance issues. That picture posted is incomplete. Here are the least played maps on iCCup this season: Jesus. Don't worry, I'm here. Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote: When you have all of these options, and iccup staff still insist on removing a played and well liked map, it brings to mind all the previous debacles (like ip banning entire cities) iccup has been responsible for. How can one group of people be this incompetent?
It isn't the same group as before. It is another group. Few of them. Who actually run something, even if it is low quality at times. Meanwhile, your numbers are from another person who tried to replace ICCup. For something like two years. And you're posting on a page, which runs a series of tournaments, for which they don't provide coverage. And use an outdated system. And which constantly ignored community feedback. Whereas this topic asks for feedback. TL;DR: in this current state swallow what you get or gtfo. Or do it better. This is poor reasoning. Just because the group running iCCup is doing something doesn't mean we can't ask them to do better. And this topic has been providing feedback, which is pretty loud and clear: we want to keep Lost Temple.
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On November 26 2015 05:50 Birdie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 05:09 GeckoXp wrote:On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 16:26 Birdie wrote:On November 24 2015 14:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 11:44 iCCup.Face wrote: Lost Temple (map since 1999) is a very good map and I personally played and loved it a lot. The best pro game I've ever seen was played on Gaia (map since 2005) but we still removed it, now is the turn of LT.
A day will come the time to be removed for FS and Python too.
Leave space to newer maps! If you want room for newer maps, get rid of Gemlong, tau cross or longinus. All old maps, all less played than Lost temple, all have balance issues. That picture posted is incomplete. Here are the least played maps on iCCup this season: Jesus. Don't worry, I'm here. On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote: When you have all of these options, and iccup staff still insist on removing a played and well liked map, it brings to mind all the previous debacles (like ip banning entire cities) iccup has been responsible for. How can one group of people be this incompetent?
It isn't the same group as before. It is another group. Few of them. Who actually run something, even if it is low quality at times. Meanwhile, your numbers are from another person who tried to replace ICCup. For something like two years. And you're posting on a page, which runs a series of tournaments, for which they don't provide coverage. And use an outdated system. And which constantly ignored community feedback. Whereas this topic asks for feedback. TL;DR: in this current state swallow what you get or gtfo. Or do it better. This is poor reasoning. Just because the group running iCCup is doing something doesn't mean we can't ask them to do better. And this topic has been providing feedback, which is pretty loud and clear: we want to keep Lost Temple.
No, it's not, because it's not directed at "the majority of responders in this thread", but the person I quoted for the reasons standing within the quote.
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On November 26 2015 05:09 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 16:26 Birdie wrote:On November 24 2015 14:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 11:44 iCCup.Face wrote: Lost Temple (map since 1999) is a very good map and I personally played and loved it a lot. The best pro game I've ever seen was played on Gaia (map since 2005) but we still removed it, now is the turn of LT.
A day will come the time to be removed for FS and Python too.
Leave space to newer maps! If you want room for newer maps, get rid of Gemlong, tau cross or longinus. All old maps, all less played than Lost temple, all have balance issues. That picture posted is incomplete. Here are the least played maps on iCCup this season: Jesus. Don't worry, I'm here. Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote: When you have all of these options, and iccup staff still insist on removing a played and well liked map, it brings to mind all the previous debacles (like ip banning entire cities) iccup has been responsible for. How can one group of people be this incompetent?
It isn't the same group as before. It is another group. Few of them. Who actually run something, even if it is low quality at times. Meanwhile, your numbers are from another person who tried to replace ICCup. For something like two years. And you're posting on a page, which runs a series of tournaments, for which they don't provide coverage. And use an outdated system. And which constantly ignored community feedback. Whereas this topic asks for feedback. TL;DR: in this current state swallow what you get or gtfo. Or do it better.
I know a select group of volunteers are doing this for free and are putting in a lot of effort but that doesn't mean that it should be exempt from criticism. That's how progress is made, if you're uncomfortable with criticism, you probably shouldn't be doing this in the first place.
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On November 26 2015 05:09 GeckoXp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 16:26 Birdie wrote:On November 24 2015 14:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:On November 24 2015 11:44 iCCup.Face wrote: Lost Temple (map since 1999) is a very good map and I personally played and loved it a lot. The best pro game I've ever seen was played on Gaia (map since 2005) but we still removed it, now is the turn of LT.
A day will come the time to be removed for FS and Python too.
Leave space to newer maps! If you want room for newer maps, get rid of Gemlong, tau cross or longinus. All old maps, all less played than Lost temple, all have balance issues. That picture posted is incomplete. Here are the least played maps on iCCup this season: Jesus. Don't worry, I'm here. Show nested quote +On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote: When you have all of these options, and iccup staff still insist on removing a played and well liked map, it brings to mind all the previous debacles (like ip banning entire cities) iccup has been responsible for. How can one group of people be this incompetent?
TL;DR: in this current state swallow what you get or gtfo. Or do it better. Alternative: I continue to criticize bad policies as such, and incompetence where I see it, and ignore idiotic posts.
That sound like a good compromise buddy?
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To clarify this discussion point:
Yes, we as ICCup personel, do want you positive criticism and your constructive feedback. Im not in charge of the map section, but me personally, im happy that people post here and have an opinion, because it shows you care and from that discussion we can have a dialogue about the subject. But keep in mind, we do this for free, we have normal jobs and a regular life and we still try our best. So keep your criticism constructive and fair, that's all im asking.
Gecko: the post you replied too is rude, i agree with that, but you should take some stuff a little less personal sometimes
TL:DR This thread is being made to get some feedback on the upcoming change in the mappool. And if your argument is presented in a reasoanable way, it will be heard.
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On November 26 2015 08:55 Cele wrote:To clarify this discussion point:Yes, we as ICCup personel, do want you positive criticism and your constructive feedback. Im not in charge of the map section, but me personally, im happy that people post here and have an opinion, because it shows you care and from that discussion we can have a dialogue about the subject. But keep in mind, we do this for free, we have normal jobs and a regular life and we still try our best. So keep your criticism constructive and fair, that's all im asking. Gecko: the post you replied too is rude, i agree with that, but you should take some stuff a little less personal sometimes TL:DR This thread is being made to get some feedback on the upcoming change in the mappool. And if your argument is presented in a reasoanable way, it will be heard. Note: I am going to include arguments against the removal of Python and Fighting Spirit in some of these points as it has been brought up by Face.
1. The removal of Lost Temple is illogical because there are maps that are just as, if not more, imbalanced as Lost Temple in the map pool. Examples: Destination, Heart Break Ridge, Aztec.
2. The removal of Lost Temple is illogical because there are maps that are much less popular than Lost Temple. Examples: Everything except Python, Fighting Spirit, and of course Lost Temple.
3. The removal of Lost Temple is the removal of a still-important part of StarCraft's history and development as a game. Without Lost Temple you would not have Luna, without Luna you would not have Fighting Spirit. Clearly, some people still prefer Lost Temple, as it is being played quite frequently.
4. The removal of Lost Temple, Fighting Spirit, and/or Python would be damaging to the community because there are people who only play on those maps as evidenced by the statistics presented. Instead of switching to different maps, they would simply quit playing ladder. If Korean pros are still playing Fighting Spirit on Fish, why does ICCup think that it is time to move on? Fish has a higher level of activity and a higher average level of skill; perhaps Fighting Spirit, Python, and LT are not the problem. Amateur players would watch their favorite gosus playing Fighting Spriit on Afreeca, but they can't play Fighting Spirit competitively themselves. That would irritate just about anyone who is still active in this game.
5. "Meta" will not develop because of the removal of some maps. Maps affect strategies. Creating new, diverse maps opens the doors for new map-specific strategies. This does not change any over-arching "meta" between the races or in any match-up, unless suddenly your whole map pack shares common elements that would do so (which would be a bad idea). It just presents different battle grounds with different options. Just want to make it clear that this will not somehow magically affect the overarching viability of Mech in TvP or any other such MU-specific equivalent. If it did, then it would probably be looked down upon, because look: pros are still playing Mech on Fighting Spirit on Afreeca. Edit: No one on ICCup, not the players, nor the administrators. are going to have an actual effect on high-level in-game "meta" anyway. We will forever ride on the coattails of the best players, emulating their strategies. That one build you do to abuse some foreigner map in some MU at C+ on ICCup is not developing any sort of in-game meta, it's just a one-trick pony that you can use to get some points.
6. It is evident from the thread that there will be a lot of complaining and disapproval over this decision. Is that really what a server wants from its player base? I would suggest posting a poll on ICCup.com, on TeamLiquid, and perhaps having a poll on the Abyss itself. For example, you could set up a bot that sends a message every hour saying "Please vote on whether or not to keep Lost Temple in the map pool! /r 1 for 'remove' /r 2 for 'keep' ." After a person messages the bot, the bot can /squelch <user> to ensure there are no multiple submissions. Make an aggregate of the results and go with majority favor. Don't force your concepts of progress onto your players, for it will alienate them.
7. Every competitive video game needs a popular training stage, a vanilla map, a balanced battle ground. Q3 has the Bouncy Map. Smash Bros Melee has Final Destination and Battlefield. CounterStrike has Dust. Starcraft Brood War has Fighting Spirit.
TL;DR: Don't remove LT. Don't remove Python. Don't remove FS. Continue to advocate for new maps made by foreign mapmakers, because it helps maintain their interest in the craft and offers new options for players. Don't do it at the expense of fan favorites and maps that everyone from LostTempleNoobD- to Larva use regularly.
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On November 26 2015 09:52 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2015 08:55 Cele wrote:To clarify this discussion point:Yes, we as ICCup personel, do want you positive criticism and your constructive feedback. Im not in charge of the map section, but me personally, im happy that people post here and have an opinion, because it shows you care and from that discussion we can have a dialogue about the subject. But keep in mind, we do this for free, we have normal jobs and a regular life and we still try our best. So keep your criticism constructive and fair, that's all im asking. Gecko: the post you replied too is rude, i agree with that, but you should take some stuff a little less personal sometimes TL:DR This thread is being made to get some feedback on the upcoming change in the mappool. And if your argument is presented in a reasoanable way, it will be heard. Note: I am going to include arguments against the removal of Python and Fighting Spirit in some of these points as it has been brought up by Face. 1. The removal of Lost Temple is illogical because there are maps that are just as, if not more, imbalanced as Lost Temple in the map pool. Examples: Destination, Heart Break Ridge, Aztec. 2. The removal of Lost Temple is illogical because there are maps that are much less popular than Lost Temple. Examples: Everything except Python, Fighting Spirit, and of course Lost Temple. 3. The removal of Lost Temple is the removal of a still-important part of StarCraft's history and development as a game. Without Lost Temple you would not have Luna, without Luna you would not have Fighting Spirit. Clearly, some people still prefer Lost Temple, as it is being played quite frequently. 4. The removal of Lost Temple, Fighting Spirit, and/or Python would be damaging to the community because there are people who only play on those maps as evidenced by the statistics presented. Instead of switching to different maps, they would simply quit playing ladder. If Korean pros are still playing Fighting Spirit on Fish, why does ICCup think that it is time to move on? Fish has a higher level of activity and a higher average level of skill; perhaps Fighting Spirit, Python, and LT are not the problem. Amateur players would watch their favorite gosus playing Fighting Spriit on Afreeca, but they can't play Fighting Spirit competitively themselves. That would irritate just about anyone who is still active in this game. 5. "Meta" will not develop because of the removal of some maps. Maps affect strategies. Creating new, diverse maps opens the doors for new map-specific strategies. This does not change any over-arching "meta" between the races or in any match-up, unless suddenly your whole map pack shares common elements that would do so (which would be a bad idea). It just presents different battle grounds with different options. Just want to make it clear that this will not somehow magically affect the overarching viability of Mech in TvP or any other such MU-specific equivalent. If it did, then it would probably be looked down upon, because look: pros are still playing Mech on Fighting Spirit on Afreeca. Edit: No one on ICCup, not the players, nor the administrators. are going to have an actual effect on high-level in-game "meta" anyway. We will forever ride on the coattails of the best players, emulating their strategies. That one build you do to abuse some foreigner map in some MU at C+ on ICCup is not developing any sort of in-game meta, it's just a one-trick pony that you can use to get some points. 6. It is evident from the thread that there will be a lot of complaining and disapproval over this decision. Is that really what a server wants from its player base? I would suggest posting a poll on ICCup.com, on TeamLiquid, and perhaps having a poll on the Abyss itself. For example, you could set up a bot that sends a message every hour saying "Please vote on whether or not to keep Lost Temple in the map pool! /r 1 for 'remove' /r 2 for 'keep' ." After a person messages the bot, the bot can /squelch <user> to ensure there are no multiple submissions. Make an aggregate of the results and go with majority favor. Don't force your concepts of progress onto your players, for it will alienate them. 7. Every competitive video game needs a popular training stage, a vanilla map, a balanced battle ground. Q3 has the Bouncy Map. Smash Bros Melee has Final Destination and Battlefield. CounterStrike has Dust. Starcraft Brood War has Fighting Spirit. TL;DR: Don't remove LT. Don't remove Python. Don't remove FS. Continue to advocate for new maps made by foreign mapmakers, because it helps maintain their interest in the craft and offers new options for players. Don't do it at the expense of fan favorites and maps that everyone from LostTempleNoobD- to Larva use regularly.
+100500 Finally a wisdom! Can't believe how true this post is! What about players who have record of 10k games on Battle.net? If they will come to visit iCCup platfrom which map they will prefer 1st to ladder guess? I frequently check all 4 official servers and still there are bunch plenty of players who constantly host again and again games only on LT.
LT should go, by modern standards it's simply a bad map. it's extremely positionally imbalanced, impossible to wall, the ramp at the lower left is awkwardly placed due to lack of modern inverted ramps, and the aesthetics are kind of boring compared to what mapmakers are capable of today.
on a somewhat related note i'd also support removing FS and python sometime in the (near) future, just for the sake of shaking up the meta a bit, and encouraging more people to try out some of the less known maps. and because the ensuing shitstorm would be hilarious.
Lost Temple imba? I don't think LT's record 46% TvZ, 52% ZvP and 47% PvT from chart which provided is that bad. ~4-5 percentage can't be considered as imbalanced since only FS could acquire 50 to 49% balance, none of others made it that close.
With all due respect why don't you take your "shitstorm toward" thoughts to your SC2 community where you're official SC2 (after not so or unsuccessful BW, if was that good you could fix LT by yourself too than whine) mapmaker now? You see what happened now to that game because of 999 changes? It's IMBA as hell that's why everybody is retiring. Guess what will happen if you remove most balanced maps in future - everybody will stop playing. Do you know f.e. that LancerX plays 99 percent of his games (383 - 298 record now) on FS? Did you heard that Python is most played 2x2 map? Don't be cancer to system just because of your mercantile benefits for yourself only. I'm not addressing this only towards you but all the ones who play 10-20 games at max per season, barely visit server but offering mind-blowing changes.
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If FS were taken from ICCUP, i would go to FISH 100%. I think many others would too. Perhaps the dumbest decision anyone could ever make. Koreans are still playing FS to no end, i don't see why we should stop either..
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