ICCUP mystery map - Page 3

On November 24 2015 14:17 Dazed_Spy wrote:
If you want room for newer maps, get rid of Gemlong, tau cross or longinus. All old maps, all less played than Lost temple, all have balance issues.

On November 24 2015 22:00 kogeT wrote:
Why remove any maps ... ?

On November 24 2015 16:26 Birdie wrote:

That picture posted is incomplete. Here are the least played maps on iCCup this season:

On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:
Jesus.

On November 25 2015 07:45 Dazed_Spy wrote:
When you have all of these options, and iccup staff still insist on removing a played and well liked map, it brings to mind all the previous debacles (like ip banning entire cities) iccup has been responsible for. How can one group of people be this incompetent?

On November 26 2015 05:09 GeckoXp wrote:

Don't worry, I'm here.



It isn't the same group as before. It is another group. Few of them. Who actually run something, even if it is low quality at times. Meanwhile, your numbers are from another person who tried to replace ICCup. For something like two years. And you're posting on a page, which runs a series of tournaments, for which they don't provide coverage. And use an outdated system. And which constantly ignored community feedback. Whereas this topic asks for feedback.

TL;DR: in this current state swallow what you get or gtfo. Or do it better.

On November 26 2015 05:50 Birdie wrote:

This is poor reasoning. Just because the group running iCCup is doing something doesn't mean we can't ask them to do better. And this topic has been providing feedback, which is pretty loud and clear: we want to keep Lost Temple.

On November 26 2015 05:09 GeckoXp wrote:

Don't worry, I'm here.



It isn't the same group as before. It is another group. Few of them. Who actually run something, even if it is low quality at times. Meanwhile, your numbers are from another person who tried to replace ICCup. For something like two years. And you're posting on a page, which runs a series of tournaments, for which they don't provide coverage. And use an outdated system. And which constantly ignored community feedback. Whereas this topic asks for feedback.

TL;DR: in this current state swallow what you get or gtfo. Or do it better.

On November 26 2015 05:09 GeckoXp wrote:

Don't worry, I'm here.


TL;DR: in this current state swallow what you get or gtfo. Or do it better.

On November 26 2015 09:52 Jealous wrote:

Note: I am going to include arguments against the removal of Python and Fighting Spirit in some of these points as it has been brought up by Face.

1. The removal of Lost Temple is illogical because there are maps that are just as, if not more, imbalanced as Lost Temple in the map pool. Examples: Destination, Heart Break Ridge, Aztec.

2. The removal of Lost Temple is illogical because there are maps that are much less popular than Lost Temple. Examples: Everything except Python, Fighting Spirit, and of course Lost Temple.

3. The removal of Lost Temple is the removal of a still-important part of StarCraft's history and development as a game. Without Lost Temple you would not have Luna, without Luna you would not have Fighting Spirit. Clearly, some people still prefer Lost Temple, as it is being played quite frequently.

4. The removal of Lost Temple, Fighting Spirit, and/or Python would be damaging to the community because there are people who only play on those maps as evidenced by the statistics presented. Instead of switching to different maps, they would simply quit playing ladder. If Korean pros are still playing Fighting Spirit on Fish, why does ICCup think that it is time to move on? Fish has a higher level of activity and a higher average level of skill; perhaps Fighting Spirit, Python, and LT are not the problem. Amateur players would watch their favorite gosus playing Fighting Spriit on Afreeca, but they can't play Fighting Spirit competitively themselves. That would irritate just about anyone who is still active in this game.

5. "Meta" will not develop because of the removal of some maps. Maps affect strategies. Creating new, diverse maps opens the doors for new map-specific strategies. This does not change any over-arching "meta" between the races or in any match-up, unless suddenly your whole map pack shares common elements that would do so (which would be a bad idea). It just presents different battle grounds with different options. Just want to make it clear that this will not somehow magically affect the overarching viability of Mech in TvP or any other such MU-specific equivalent. If it did, then it would probably be looked down upon, because look: pros are still playing Mech on Fighting Spirit on Afreeca. Edit: No one on ICCup, not the players, nor the administrators. are going to have an actual effect on high-level in-game "meta" anyway. We will forever ride on the coattails of the best players, emulating their strategies. That one build you do to abuse some foreigner map in some MU at C+ on ICCup is not developing any sort of in-game meta, it's just a one-trick pony that you can use to get some points.

6. It is evident from the thread that there will be a lot of complaining and disapproval over this decision. Is that really what a server wants from its player base? I would suggest posting a poll on ICCup.com, on TeamLiquid, and perhaps having a poll on the Abyss itself. For example, you could set up a bot that sends a message every hour saying "Please vote on whether or not to keep Lost Temple in the map pool! /r 1 for 'remove' /r 2 for 'keep' ." After a person messages the bot, the bot can /squelch <user> to ensure there are no multiple submissions. Make an aggregate of the results and go with majority favor. Don't force your concepts of progress onto your players, for it will alienate them.

7. Every competitive video game needs a popular training stage, a vanilla map, a balanced battle ground. Q3 has the Bouncy Map. Smash Bros Melee has Final Destination and Battlefield. CounterStrike has Dust. Starcraft Brood War has Fighting Spirit.

TL;DR: Don't remove LT. Don't remove Python. Don't remove FS. Continue to advocate for new maps made by foreign mapmakers, because it helps maintain their interest in the craft and offers new options for players. Don't do it at the expense of fan favorites and maps that everyone from LostTempleNoobD- to Larva use regularly.

LT should go, by modern standards it's simply a bad map. it's extremely positionally imbalanced, impossible to wall, the ramp at the lower left is awkwardly placed due to lack of modern inverted ramps, and the aesthetics are kind of boring compared to what mapmakers are capable of today.

on a somewhat related note i'd also support removing FS and python sometime in the (near) future, just for the sake of shaking up the meta a bit, and encouraging more people to try out some of the less known maps. and because the ensuing shitstorm would be hilarious.