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On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.)
Don't tell Dazed.
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On March 11 2019 16:33 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.) Don't tell Dazed.
meh my post isn't so much a complaint about balance but rather the match up dynamic becoming extremely stale
i'm a zerg player myself and i find zvt the hardest match up by far. i still think it's a very hard match up for zergs and there are a ton of ways you can just autolose the match up in the early and mid game. i just find the late game is just so one sided these days at a professional level.
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On March 11 2019 14:47 GTR wrote:
Any 'official' announcement of Effort going to the military? YT video/Afreeca post etc?
Or did he say it in a pre-game/post-game interview and I just missed it lol
Artosis mentioned it at the start of the third-place match. Then he talked about it in the post-match interview.
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Bot edit.
User was banned for this post.
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Hello players
I need support how can i create this map. I mean kill4min. I have map but ther is something miss. When we start playng we have all Like normal, need 300for comander center aso. I need mod or what? pls help how to do it
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On March 12 2019 18:27 Metodius wrote:
Hello players
I need support how can i create this map. I mean kill4min. I have map but ther is something miss. When we start playng we have all Like normal, need 300for comander center aso. I need mod or what? pls help how to do it
Did you set the option "Use map settings" (UMS) instead of "melee" when hosting the game?
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On March 11 2019 16:33 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.) Don't tell Dazed. haha  On March 11 2019 20:06 Motivate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 16:33 Jealous wrote:On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.) Don't tell Dazed. meh my post isn't so much a complaint about balance but rather the match up dynamic becoming extremely stale i'm a zerg player myself and i find zvt the hardest match up by far. i still think it's a very hard match up for zergs and there are a ton of ways you can just autolose the match up in the early and mid game. i just find the late game is just so one sided these days at a professional level. ofc the match up was going to reach a stale and binary position, zerg gameplan has been exactly identical for 13 years straight. Its balanced. Used to be one of my fav matchups to play and watch, but then i realized i was doing the exact same thing as a zerg for more than a decade.
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On March 11 2019 20:06 Motivate wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 16:33 Jealous wrote:On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.) Don't tell Dazed. meh my post isn't so much a complaint about balance but rather the match up dynamic becoming extremely stale i'm a zerg player myself and i find zvt the hardest match up by far. i still think it's a very hard match up for zergs and there are a ton of ways you can just autolose the match up in the early and mid game. i just find the late game is just so one sided these days at a professional level.
What I'm about to say may start a centuries long war, but I think what's happened to ZvT and really all of BW is that the pros came back from SC2 and took the lessons they learned while playing it with them. I don't know if it is really the best way to play the game or not, but more and more the game is about optimizing the buildup as much as possible and putting everything into a single play, ignoring grander strategy and small skirmishes in favour of ending the game more quickly, win or lose. The long macro games you remember were about safely taking more and more bases, while mostly relying on harassment to interact with your opponent, creating diversions and avoiding taking battles that didn't look crucial or relatively certain, and being more willing to make tactical retreats and come back in other ways. In other words, the cautious long game has been replaced with a single backbreaking attack, not exactly an all in, but not so different either especially in terms of previous thought in StarCraft.
I think genuinely part of it is that the players are getting older, and the long grueling games we found so entertaining just don't appeal to them. Remember the hybrid BW-SC2 league where players just tried to end the game quickly, because there was no time to practice the middle and late game? It's like everyone had an epiphany that their win rate didn't improve that much whether they played the grueling long macro game, or they just staked it all on a big timing attack. And yet you see them in ASL sticking around way too long after they've lost the game on their stupid attack, which makes me think it's not all that satisfying a way to play.
I think we still see some good games from the players who really care, especially when they face off, but perhaps BW just doesn't punish the more simplistic approach enough. It's more sophisticated than all-ins that happen in the first 5 minutes, and it can't just be shut down by safe play. It's not an all in in the sense that it doesn't auto get stopped just because you know it's coming, but it is an all-in in the sense that the game is largely staked upon one encounter.
As a footnote, I don't know what I'm talking about and haven't played StarCraft in ten thousand years, but this is what I learned from the ancient Egyptians.
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On March 13 2019 00:07 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 20:06 Motivate wrote:On March 11 2019 16:33 Jealous wrote:On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.) Don't tell Dazed. meh my post isn't so much a complaint about balance but rather the match up dynamic becoming extremely stale i'm a zerg player myself and i find zvt the hardest match up by far. i still think it's a very hard match up for zergs and there are a ton of ways you can just autolose the match up in the early and mid game. i just find the late game is just so one sided these days at a professional level. What I'm about to say may start a centuries long war, but I think what's happened to ZvT and really all of BW is that the pros came back from SC2 and took the lessons they learned while playing it with them. I don't know if it is really the best way to play the game or not, but more and more the game is about optimizing the buildup as much as possible and putting everything into a single play, ignoring grander strategy and small skirmishes in favour of ending the game more quickly, win or lose. The long macro games you remember were about safely taking more and more bases, while mostly relying on harassment to interact with your opponent, creating diversions and avoiding taking battles that didn't look crucial or relatively certain, and being more willing to make tactical retreats and come back in other ways. In other words, the cautious long game has been replaced with a single backbreaking attack, not exactly an all in, but not so different either especially in terms of previous thought in StarCraft. I think genuinely part of it is that the players are getting older, and the long grueling games we found so entertaining just don't appeal to them. Remember the hybrid BW-SC2 league where players just tried to end the game quickly, because there was no time to practice the middle and late game? It's like everyone had an epiphany that their win rate didn't improve that much whether they played the grueling long macro game, or they just staked it all on a big timing attack. And yet you see them in ASL sticking around way too long after they've lost the game on their stupid attack, which makes me think it's not all that satisfying a way to play. I think we still see some good games from the players who really care, especially when they face off, but perhaps BW just doesn't punish the more simplistic approach enough. It's more sophisticated than all-ins that happen in the first 5 minutes, and it can't just be shut down by safe play. It's not an all in in the sense that it doesn't auto get stopped just because you know it's coming, but it is an all-in in the sense that the game is largely staked upon one encounter. As a footnote, I don't know what I'm talking about and haven't played StarCraft in ten thousand years, but this is what I learned from the ancient Egyptians.
People have also gotten just really good at shutting down harassment and preventing harassing parties from ever becoming dangerous. Splitting your army and utilizing it effectively is difficult if the opponent isn’t busy/distracted.
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On March 13 2019 00:07 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 20:06 Motivate wrote:On March 11 2019 16:33 Jealous wrote:On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.) Don't tell Dazed. meh my post isn't so much a complaint about balance but rather the match up dynamic becoming extremely stale i'm a zerg player myself and i find zvt the hardest match up by far. i still think it's a very hard match up for zergs and there are a ton of ways you can just autolose the match up in the early and mid game. i just find the late game is just so one sided these days at a professional level. What I'm about to say may start a centuries long war, but I think what's happened to ZvT and really all of BW is that the pros came back from SC2 and took the lessons they learned while playing it with them. I don't know if it is really the best way to play the game or not, but more and more the game is about optimizing the buildup as much as possible and putting everything into a single play, ignoring grander strategy and small skirmishes in favour of ending the game more quickly, win or lose. The long macro games you remember were about safely taking more and more bases, while mostly relying on harassment to interact with your opponent, creating diversions and avoiding taking battles that didn't look crucial or relatively certain, and being more willing to make tactical retreats and come back in other ways. In other words, the cautious long game has been replaced with a single backbreaking attack, not exactly an all in, but not so different either especially in terms of previous thought in StarCraft. I think genuinely part of it is that the players are getting older, and the long grueling games we found so entertaining just don't appeal to them. Remember the hybrid BW-SC2 league where players just tried to end the game quickly, because there was no time to practice the middle and late game? It's like everyone had an epiphany that their win rate didn't improve that much whether they played the grueling long macro game, or they just staked it all on a big timing attack. And yet you see them in ASL sticking around way too long after they've lost the game on their stupid attack, which makes me think it's not all that satisfying a way to play. I think we still see some good games from the players who really care, especially when they face off, but perhaps BW just doesn't punish the more simplistic approach enough. It's more sophisticated than all-ins that happen in the first 5 minutes, and it can't just be shut down by safe play. It's not an all in in the sense that it doesn't auto get stopped just because you know it's coming, but it is an all-in in the sense that the game is largely staked upon one encounter. As a footnote, I don't know what I'm talking about and haven't played StarCraft in ten thousand years, but this is what I learned from the ancient Egyptians. The kind of hyper efficiency your talking about in build and gameplan was an inevitability though, even if sc2 hastened the process. As much as i would love to believe otherwise, and as much as the fanatics on this site have convinced themselves, broodwar is a game with a limited amount of options. It was inevitable that things would shrink down to a few builds, even fewer gameplans, things would be decided more and more on hyper efficient decisions and builds, etc. Humans have split the atom, how could anyone be shocked we would eventually reach a position where zerg was more-or-less figured out, and terran was more-or-less figured out, etc?
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Well, for one I was not making an argument about the number of strategies available to players, I was focused on how we got to the high popularity of a single big timing attack. That has gone in and out of fashion over Brood War's history. There was a time Terran never took a third base until their main and natural were mined out, because the belief was a Zerg on 4 gas is too strong. Obviously we learned mech can compete quite well with that, and maps have enabled Terrans to take more bases easily with strong defensive features like ramps.
Second, StarCraft is a game of incomplete information and is likely to always favour a mixed strategy approach. Even in games of complete information like chess, we see tournament players attempt to find a novel position they've studied more that their opponent won't have thought about. So I don't particularly think that StarCraft is figured out anymore today than I did when Artosis wrote his Terran roadmap article 10 years ago claiming TvZ was figured out then too. It was only the last ASL finals that we saw Effort use novelty to destroy Flash. We are seeing Mini right now use relatively novel strategy to overcome the PvZ matchup.
In my opinion BW won't be played long enough for us to ever see a clearly dominant strategy for each matchup. However, one of the things most discouraging players from being novel is that they stream most of their games, so they have no secrets, and if they want to practice with their stream off to win an important match, they're losing money from balloons. It's an ecosystem which actively discourages innovation.
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On March 12 2019 19:48 Highgamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2019 18:27 Metodius wrote:
Hello players
I need support how can i create this map. I mean kill4min. I have map but ther is something miss. When we start playng we have all Like normal, need 300for comander center aso. I need mod or what? pls help how to do it
Did you set the option "Use map settings" (UMS) instead of "melee" when hosting the game?
Thise working good, thanks 😊
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On March 12 2019 23:39 Dazed. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 16:33 Jealous wrote:On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.) Don't tell Dazed. haha Show nested quote +On March 11 2019 20:06 Motivate wrote:On March 11 2019 16:33 Jealous wrote:On March 11 2019 15:09 Motivate wrote:
On a random note, does anyone else find ZvT has become pretty stale lately? All the games feel very similar: either Terran kills Zerg before the third is up and running, or Zerg gets defilers and eventually ultras and the game is basically decided. I remember during Kespa days you would have long back and forth macro games in ZvT, with tons of ultras versus mass tank. Now it just feels so binary. Is it because mass siege tank just isn't that good anymore, so there's no real answer to ultras unless Terran is already far ahead? (And hence the non-stop aggression from Terran.) Don't tell Dazed. meh my post isn't so much a complaint about balance but rather the match up dynamic becoming extremely stale i'm a zerg player myself and i find zvt the hardest match up by far. i still think it's a very hard match up for zergs and there are a ton of ways you can just autolose the match up in the early and mid game. i just find the late game is just so one sided these days at a professional level. ofc the match up was going to reach a stale and binary position, zerg gameplan has been exactly identical for 13 years straight. Its balanced. Used to be one of my fav matchups to play and watch, but then i realized i was doing the exact same thing as a zerg for more than a decade.
That's your fault. Look at Shine's hydra guardian timings. Look at hydra lurker counter attack drop styles. Look at dark swarm all ins. Look at non stop muta spam with expansion until the Terran runs out of money at 2 bases.
Not to mention all of the different ways to play the standard defense into release the kraken Zerg style.
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Maybe I'll just start asking this with every new tournament and let me know if it's getting old but: Is there any word on if Flash/Jaedong/Zero will be competing in ASL3?
edit - KSL3 lol
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TLADT24920 Posts
ASL3? Mate, that was almost 2 years ago! On a more serious note, I feel like there's a chance of Flash playing and it's likely that ZerO will participate as well in the latest ASL/KSL, but I can't see Jaedong playing in either. He didn't try for this latest ASL and dropped out of KSL2 as well. There was talks about KSL1 being his final major run so I don't think we'll ever see Jaedong aim for the top again. Maybe after the military when he's more rested?
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I'm calling it here, ZerO is winning KSL3 or at least making a deep run.
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
Polling is back!
Poll: If you could enter 1 cheat at the start of a 1v1show me the money (14) 48% operation cwal (2) 7% black sheep wall (6) 21% modify the phase variance (1) 3% medieval man (2) 7% the gathering (2) 7% food for thought (1) 3% something for nothing (1) 3% 29 total votes Your vote: If you could enter 1 cheat at the start of a 1v1 (Vote): show me the money
(Vote): operation cwal
(Vote): black sheep wall
(Vote): modify the phase variance
(Vote): medieval man
(Vote): the gathering
(Vote): food for thought
(Vote): something for nothing
Please state the reason for your vote below.
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Norway28728 Posts
depends on the matchup, but I think going for the gathering and rushing out a single queen as quickly as possible and then just broodlinging everything sounds like the most fun way to win. Obviously doesnt work zvp though.
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EPT
