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On September 03 2013 12:09 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 09:55 Cele wrote:On September 03 2013 09:47 white_horse wrote:On September 03 2013 08:03 BigFan wrote:On September 03 2013 08:01 figq wrote:
Fantasy I would guess is one of those who can play well SC2 but just...um, sorry to say it... don't see the point. I still wonder why he's struggling though. He has the skills if he can play BW at such a high level so what's holding him? Lack of love for the game? Must be I think More like the game isn't hard enough to clearly separate the good players from the bad yeah that's a very clear problem that everybody can observe who followed Sc2 a bit more. It has become slightly better with HotS, but i still think there isn enough room to show superior skill. Flash said this as well in an interview. hmm you both make a good point. Some things in SCII are quite rigid such as needing vikings for colossi otherwise you die lol. I think the smart AI and smart casting all resulted in a decrease in the skill required and most players play the same style so you can't separate players based on their different styles etc... Maybe Blizzard will get it right with LoTV or maybe they'll just add a couple more units, patch a bit then leave SCII be. Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 11:24 Ribbon wrote:On September 03 2013 04:01 Mindcrime wrote:On September 03 2013 02:12 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2013 22:21 Xiphos wrote:You want Terrans and Zergs???? Holy shit. Skt releasing fantasy. That's so stupid. He's been so integral to skt success. Unless he's retiring SC2 I'm pissed at skt. Fantasy's free agent status does not mean that SKT has released him; it just means that the term of his contract is over. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427820But in the present state of the StarCraft 2 scene, the real question is why wouldn't INnoVation leave KeSPA? Remember that time INnoVation won the Korean qualifier for IEM Shanghai, earned himself a fully paid trip to China, and then couldn't go because his team was playing Proleague that weekend? Revival ended up winning that tournament, taking home the first place prize of $10,000. Revival. I'm going to leave it to you to imagine what would have happened if INnoVation played Revival. This articles about why KeSPA pros might want to switch to foreign teams, but it's interesting to think about it in the context of retiring, as well. Pretty much all the money in SC2 is put in a safe marked "Not for KeSPA players". It's probably a big part of why all the KeSPA pros are jumping ship and hardly any of the eSF pros are (remember, a lot of the older SC2 pros were BW pros or semi-pros, so BW remains a viable option for, say, MarineKing). Innovation (Bogus) may literally having been giving up more prize money to Soul than they were paying him. That article is all truth. If you are on a KeSPA team and you're a really good player(think Jaedong for ex if he was still on team 8) then you are missing out on a lot of money and you get to keep most of it for yourself. On top of that, you travel a lot, meet lots of new people etc... Jaedong is definitely loving his time on EG and I'm sure he'll stay on for another year at least.
On the other hand, you are entering an economy that is very top-weighted. There is a limit to how many tournaments a player can travel to in a year, and how many of those tournaments the player is going to win. Then what? For how long the tournament cash winning economy is going to last before people realize it can only support a handful of players? What about anybody else? For how long are the NA and EU scenes going to be sustainable once most of the money goes to Koreans flying in?
The fundamental change in the Korea that actually made eSports sustainable was the fact that the money was not concentrated in the top 1% of the players. That was the whole point of Boxer making sure that the whole team, and not just himself, is to be sponsored by SKTelecom.
How can I not feel that Blizzard is causing Starcraft to move backwards? Korea, once the capital of eSports, is no longer able to maintain its sustainability, causing an exodus of players which make it practically impossible for other regions to sustain themselves. Starcraft is cannibalizing itself.
eSports were not created when Starcraft II was released. Sustainable eSports are not rocket science. It was already figured out in Korea: have a game people actually like playing, have competition grow from those players, competition brings audience, which brings more competition organically. Eventually, once you have enough audience, you can bring sponsorship to competition. Everything went upside down with Starcraft II.
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On September 03 2013 08:03 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 08:01 figq wrote:
Fantasy I would guess is one of those who can play well SC2 but just...um, sorry to say it... don't see the point. I still wonder why he's struggling though. He has the skills if he can play BW at such a high level so what's holding him? Lack of love for the game? Must be I think
There's not a doubt about it. I mean look at Bisu...:'(
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Being on fa status doesnt mean they got released. They are just negotiating contracts etc . Maybe he will en d up in afreeca or renew contracts with t1
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woah ! reeeeaaaaalllly oldschool  nice ! and who were the 2 new announced before him ?
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Holy fuck that's unexpected...please come to Sonic Jangbi c:
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TLADT24920 Posts
sweet! More competition 
On September 03 2013 13:51 VManOfMana wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 12:09 BigFan wrote:On September 03 2013 09:55 Cele wrote:On September 03 2013 09:47 white_horse wrote:On September 03 2013 08:03 BigFan wrote:On September 03 2013 08:01 figq wrote:
Fantasy I would guess is one of those who can play well SC2 but just...um, sorry to say it... don't see the point. I still wonder why he's struggling though. He has the skills if he can play BW at such a high level so what's holding him? Lack of love for the game? Must be I think More like the game isn't hard enough to clearly separate the good players from the bad yeah that's a very clear problem that everybody can observe who followed Sc2 a bit more. It has become slightly better with HotS, but i still think there isn enough room to show superior skill. Flash said this as well in an interview. hmm you both make a good point. Some things in SCII are quite rigid such as needing vikings for colossi otherwise you die lol. I think the smart AI and smart casting all resulted in a decrease in the skill required and most players play the same style so you can't separate players based on their different styles etc... Maybe Blizzard will get it right with LoTV or maybe they'll just add a couple more units, patch a bit then leave SCII be. On September 03 2013 11:24 Ribbon wrote:On September 03 2013 04:01 Mindcrime wrote:On September 03 2013 02:12 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2013 22:21 Xiphos wrote:You want Terrans and Zergs???? Holy shit. Skt releasing fantasy. That's so stupid. He's been so integral to skt success. Unless he's retiring SC2 I'm pissed at skt. Fantasy's free agent status does not mean that SKT has released him; it just means that the term of his contract is over. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=427820But in the present state of the StarCraft 2 scene, the real question is why wouldn't INnoVation leave KeSPA? Remember that time INnoVation won the Korean qualifier for IEM Shanghai, earned himself a fully paid trip to China, and then couldn't go because his team was playing Proleague that weekend? Revival ended up winning that tournament, taking home the first place prize of $10,000. Revival. I'm going to leave it to you to imagine what would have happened if INnoVation played Revival. This articles about why KeSPA pros might want to switch to foreign teams, but it's interesting to think about it in the context of retiring, as well. Pretty much all the money in SC2 is put in a safe marked "Not for KeSPA players". It's probably a big part of why all the KeSPA pros are jumping ship and hardly any of the eSF pros are (remember, a lot of the older SC2 pros were BW pros or semi-pros, so BW remains a viable option for, say, MarineKing). Innovation (Bogus) may literally having been giving up more prize money to Soul than they were paying him. That article is all truth. If you are on a KeSPA team and you're a really good player(think Jaedong for ex if he was still on team 8) then you are missing out on a lot of money and you get to keep most of it for yourself. On top of that, you travel a lot, meet lots of new people etc... Jaedong is definitely loving his time on EG and I'm sure he'll stay on for another year at least. On the other hand, you are entering an economy that is very top-weighted. There is a limit to how many tournaments a player can travel to in a year, and how many of those tournaments the player is going to win. Then what? For how long the tournament cash winning economy is going to last before people realize it can only support a handful of players? What about anybody else? For how long are the NA and EU scenes going to be sustainable once most of the money goes to Koreans flying in? The fundamental change in the Korea that actually made eSports sustainable was the fact that the money was not concentrated in the top 1% of the players. That was the whole point of Boxer making sure that the whole team, and not just himself, is to be sponsored by SKTelecom. How can I not feel that Blizzard is causing Starcraft to move backwards? Korea, once the capital of eSports, is no longer able to maintain its sustainability, causing an exodus of players which make it practically impossible for other regions to sustain themselves. Starcraft is cannibalizing itself. eSports were not created when Starcraft II was released. Sustainable eSports are not rocket science. It was already figured out in Korea: have a game people actually like playing, have competition grow from those players, competition brings audience, which brings more competition organically. Eventually, once you have enough audience, you can bring sponsorship to competition. Everything went upside down with Starcraft II.
hmm I see your point. It's disappointing that SC in Korea is declining but SSL/SRT is getting better. Let's wait and see what happens and if BW can make a comeback!
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Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
... profound sadness....
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On September 03 2013 16:55 Fazers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 08:03 BigFan wrote:On September 03 2013 08:01 figq wrote:
Fantasy I would guess is one of those who can play well SC2 but just...um, sorry to say it... don't see the point. I still wonder why he's struggling though. He has the skills if he can play BW at such a high level so what's holding him? Lack of love for the game? Must be I think There's not a doubt about it. I mean look at Bisu...:'(
Guys stop comparing the two games. They're very fucking different. Just because you had success with one doesn't mean you will find success with the other.
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On September 02 2013 15:57 M.R. McThundercrotch wrote:
So, StarCraft 2 continues shrinking, causing more old Brood War pros to join amateur leagues. The influx of old pros brings heightened interest and heightened interest brings in more sponsors. More sponsors brings in more pros, rinse and repeat until a New Golden Age of Brood War is formed. Blizzard gives up on SC2 and the new Korean StarCraft scene uses the Galaxy Editor to create StarCraft Pro, a game that combines all the best ideas from both games.
Ten years down the line, Blizzard is looking to make StarCraft 3. This time, they approach the Korean pros, asking for help. The response is "You tried to destroy us last time, why should we help you?" Dejected, Blizzard seeks out the only person they can think of to help them.
Scene opens with Browder and Kim climbing a mountain. When they reach the top, they find an old, ancient monastery. They go through giant double doors, and inside is a lone man, sitting on the floor in front of a computer screen.
KIM: That's him.
BROWDER: You sure?
KIM: Yes, he's the only bonjwa who will work with us; the only man who could be our...savior.
Cut to black. Roll credits. Stinger featuring Hong Jin Ho running for Mayor of Seoul - he comes in second when the people of Korea literally write in "Slayers_Boxer." Lim Yo Hwan's first act as President is to build a bunker across the street from Yellow's house. Begin production on the sequel, working title StarCraft Wars Episode 2: the Drone Wars. In theaters soonTM.
hahaha so good gj.
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United States10569 Posts
well it would be nice to see some more star power in the SOSPAs :D
fuck damn man  owell, good luck 2time OSL champ!
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 04 2013 01:22 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 16:55 Fazers wrote:On September 03 2013 08:03 BigFan wrote:On September 03 2013 08:01 figq wrote:
Fantasy I would guess is one of those who can play well SC2 but just...um, sorry to say it... don't see the point. I still wonder why he's struggling though. He has the skills if he can play BW at such a high level so what's holding him? Lack of love for the game? Must be I think There's not a doubt about it. I mean look at Bisu...:'( Guys stop comparing the two games. They're very fucking different. Just because you had success with one doesn't mean you will find success with the other.
yes, we are aware that they are different. yes, I'm speculating about the lack of love but it's not unfounded. Parting said that Bisu was amazing in practice, he had #1 GM HoTS during beta(not sure what period) etc... From what I've seen, he performed better in HoTS but nowhere what at least I expected. That is all.
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On September 04 2013 01:22 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2013 16:55 Fazers wrote:On September 03 2013 08:03 BigFan wrote:On September 03 2013 08:01 figq wrote:
Fantasy I would guess is one of those who can play well SC2 but just...um, sorry to say it... don't see the point. I still wonder why he's struggling though. He has the skills if he can play BW at such a high level so what's holding him? Lack of love for the game? Must be I think There's not a doubt about it. I mean look at Bisu...:'( Guys stop comparing the two games. They're very fucking different. Just because you had success with one doesn't mean you will find success with the other.
...we're talking about the passion and love for the game.
What I'm trying to say, is that Bisu probably never enjoyed SC2 in the first place as much as he did for BW. It's quite evident through if you compare his results in both games.
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On September 04 2013 03:19 Fazers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 01:22 StarStruck wrote:On September 03 2013 16:55 Fazers wrote:On September 03 2013 08:03 BigFan wrote:On September 03 2013 08:01 figq wrote:
Fantasy I would guess is one of those who can play well SC2 but just...um, sorry to say it... don't see the point. I still wonder why he's struggling though. He has the skills if he can play BW at such a high level so what's holding him? Lack of love for the game? Must be I think There's not a doubt about it. I mean look at Bisu...:'( Guys stop comparing the two games. They're very fucking different. Just because you had success with one doesn't mean you will find success with the other. ...we're talking about the passion and love for the game. What I'm trying to say, is that Bisu probably never enjoyed SC2 in the first place as much as he did for BW. It's quite evident through if you compare his results in both games. starstruck's point is that you can't say anything, because they're different games. The motivation issue is clouded by other factors. You might be able to analyse those factors on a larger scale, but it's meaningless in individual cases.
So, no, it is not evident at all.
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one thing you have to keep in mind is that players like bisu, stork, jd and so on have been on the scene for a very long time. the life as a progamer is so rigid and taxing that a player typically cant keep it up for more than 8 or so years. realistically, in a hypothetical world in which sc2 never existed and they all kept playing bw, bisu, stork, jd and others would most likely not be winning championships right now and be closer to retirement than their peak...
and as awesome as the influx of great players in the SSL scene is, i doubt that bw can truely make a sustainable comeback. i cant imagine any young kids starting to play and practice bw to the extend required for a pro or semipro career. if many old pros leave sc2 and return to bw, then bw can have another couple of good years. but in the long run, those guys will have to go to university, get jobs, go to the military and so on - and there will be no new generation of bw players to replace them.
it is very possible that we have a sponsored bw league in korea in 2014 or 2015. but in my opinion, it is close to impossible to have a thriving bw scene in 2017 or 2018.
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What if brood war got new fancy graphics? The next generation seems to love those...Do you thi k that could help maybe not with a comeback but a definite increase in interest, popularity, and sponsorship of BW?
Also a friend of mine said that bisu hasn't played enough televised matches to say that he sucks or is awesome in SCII...
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On September 04 2013 03:35 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2013 03:19 Fazers wrote:On September 04 2013 01:22 StarStruck wrote:On September 03 2013 16:55 Fazers wrote:On September 03 2013 08:03 BigFan wrote:On September 03 2013 08:01 figq wrote:
Fantasy I would guess is one of those who can play well SC2 but just...um, sorry to say it... don't see the point. I still wonder why he's struggling though. He has the skills if he can play BW at such a high level so what's holding him? Lack of love for the game? Must be I think There's not a doubt about it. I mean look at Bisu...:'( Guys stop comparing the two games. They're very fucking different. Just because you had success with one doesn't mean you will find success with the other. ...we're talking about the passion and love for the game. What I'm trying to say, is that Bisu probably never enjoyed SC2 in the first place as much as he did for BW. It's quite evident through if you compare his results in both games. starstruck's point is that you can't say anything, because they're different games. The motivation issue is clouded by other factors. You might be able to analyse those factors on a larger scale, but it's meaningless in individual cases. So, no, it is not evident at all.
Naw.
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On September 04 2013 01:22 StarStruck wrote:
Guys stop comparing the two games. They're very fucking different.
You just compared them
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1354 Posts
On September 04 2013 04:09 traceurling wrote:
What if brood war got new fancy graphics? The next generation seems to love those...Do you thi k that could help maybe not with a comeback but a definite increase in interest, popularity, and sponsorship of BW?
Also a friend of mine said that bisu hasn't played enough televised matches to say that he sucks or is awesome in SCII...
It's the sponsorship that's the question.
Any sort of news on BW is basically going to increase interest and popularity at this stage with Jangbi coming back and maybe some others. But without the support of Kespa companies, sponsorship is tough. Foreign companies are unlikely to sponsor, so your basically stuck with non-Kespa Korean companies.
Although if Kespa had the courage to do a 180 and sponsor BW again that would be amazing, if exceedingly unlikely.
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On September 04 2013 04:09 traceurling wrote:
What if brood war got new fancy graphics? The next generation seems to love those...Do you thi k that could help maybe not with a comeback but a definite increase in interest, popularity, and sponsorship of BW?
Frankly, graphics are like the 30th biggest problem with BW, in terms of getting people into it. It doesn't work on modern OSes without some dedicated hackery, hosting games requires admin access to your router and a bit more hackery, the bnet 1.0 interface is utter garbage by modern standards (I know it's popular to hate on Bnet 2, and for good reason, but BW lives in a glass house in this regard). And while people complain about the lack of community in bnet 2, every time I open ICCUP I'm greeted by a million spanish viagra ads in the default channel (and getting a game against another guy as bad as I am? Hah. And no one will play with you if you play random).
Anyway, BW HD isn't happening, and even if it did, the BW community wouldn't actually accept it because there'd almost certainly be subtle differences between engines even if Blizz was actually trying to emulate all of BW's arcane wackiness.
No, if BW wants to get more new people involved, and I think it's a real possibility, we as a community need to do the heavy lifting. I've always thought of the SC2 fanbase as BW fans waiting to happen, and that's more true now than ever. But we need to capitalize. We need community figures, a new version of Day9 to bring back the dailies, more "fun" tournaments, etc etc etc.
I really do think we can get a semi-sizable foreign BW scene going again, if we only try.
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EPT
