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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On May 29 2012 05:21 Blennd wrote: Which explains why the most casual e-sport by far (LoL) is huge in Korea? LoL is way too different from BW to compare them like that. Besides, it's free with a much better UI compared to SC2's model. EDIT: Also I'm afraid you misunderstand me here, please direct me to where I said the game fails because it's casual or that SC2 is a casual game. | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
Of course I do want to touch a bit on his more controversial statements, too. First, I don't think it's necessary or productive to directly compare units or races in BW and SC2. They are different in ways, similar in others, and that's that. Each game needs to stand on it's own merits. Obviously BW has proven itself tenfold while SC2 has shown immense promise and potential. While every game of SC2 (or BW for that matter) isn't going to be the best most amazing thing ever, there are many recent matches that show just how fantastic SC2 is as it's own game. MVP v. Squirtle GSL finals obviously comes to mind, as well as a few matches from last night's GSTL between NSH and Slayers (see the second match from that series for what may be the second best game of the year). Aside from the real standout matches like that, the average pro-level match is at such a high standard that I think most criticisms of SC2 are based on how the game was a year ago and not how it is today. As far as which game is easier to follow, I'd say that they are both extremely similar generally speaking. In other words, any macro-economic RTS game is going to have similarities that a fan of one will immediately understand in another. Worker harass, drops, counter-attacks, microing injured units, rush vs. econ, hidden tech, scouting, army movement, etc. These things are not particular to any one RTS, so I don't see how it's much harder to understand than any other game. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On May 29 2012 05:35 zhurai wrote: and what other SC2 events do you think are happening at the same time as this "grand finals" then for example. I think JinAir got 6 Million viewers watching BW. | ||
Xxio
Canada5565 Posts
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menaceko
United States58 Posts
On May 29 2012 03:53 N.geNuity wrote: to be fair, LoL seems to have exploded in korea and I'm not sure that is a casual friendly spectator game (I haven't played nor watched LoL, but know a little bit about dota/dota 2). You probably don't just watch LoL/other mobas and understand much about the items/what is going on except that it's a 5v5 and some spells/team fights go on, that can be fun to see without knowing the details. But to get into the game you probably want to play with a friend who is already into it. This is so true... I've watched LoL/DotA 2 many times and can't enjoy watching it at all... does that mean it's a bad game? No... It's like the 1.6 vs. CSS debate... 1.6 kids desperately hold on to their game and call CSS shit when it really isn't... is 1.6 a bit better? That's debatable... I think 1.6/BW users are just afraid to move to SC2/CSS in fear of possibly not being as good at the game because it has to be relearned. I don't mean this comment as inflammatory in any way possible, it's my person belief. I made the switch from both 1.6 and BW some time ago, and I made the switch when both games were in beta and to be fair CSS/SC2 in beta was absolute dog shit... but I knew it was the future so I held on. I still watch both games and enjoy them both equally... | ||
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gn0m
Sweden302 Posts
On May 29 2012 05:45 Xiphos wrote: I think JinAir got 6 Million viewers watching BW. Was this ever confirmed? I heard everything between 4 and 10 million, but it was unclear if this was viewers or merely channel views | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching. You do realize that they once made it pay to watch live in korea? Nobody showed up, the pay to watch thing is either proof of lack of sponsors (or proper sponsoring from these sponsors) or just plain greed, the pay to watch is really frustrating for people who usually treats it like a "national television" which is allmost for free. Riot as an example is a company in which you can see PASSION for E-sports, they want that shit to work and you can see it; they are doing alot to support their viewers, they invest in tournaments untill the industry is running smoothly, such as the OGN LoL tourny (whether or not it's going to work on a long term scale is something which will be interesting to follow). Also quit the BW depth vs SC2 depth discussion, it's impossible to discuss properly since the games were so different in the beginning stages of their respective metagames. Keep in mind how stale BW became after replays was introduced compared to before, SC2 allways had replays and huge exposure so ofcourse people are going to have less crazy plays as people copy the pros, saying that the unit designs are at fault is kinda stupid and doesnt make sense as plenty of innovation has happend and still happens in both games, if you dont notice it you're probally unaware of what to look for. On May 29 2012 05:51 menaceko wrote: This is so true... I've watched LoL/DotA 2 many times and can't enjoy watching it at all... does that mean it's a bad game? No... It's like the 1.6 vs. CSS debate... 1.6 kids desperately hold on to their game and call CSS shit when it really isn't... is 1.6 a bit better? That's debatable... I think 1.6/BW users are just afraid to move to SC2/CSS in fear of possibly not being as good at the game because it has to be relearned. I don't mean this comment as inflammatory in any way possible, it's my person belief. I made the switch from both 1.6 and BW some time ago, and I made the switch when both games were in beta and to be fair CSS/SC2 in beta was absolute dog shit... but I knew it was the future so I held on. I still watch both games and enjoy them both equally... Kinda bad analogy, that's like saying that all professionals ignored sc2 for BW despite SC2 being out. | ||
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corumjhaelen
France6884 Posts
On May 29 2012 05:51 menaceko wrote: This is so true... I've watched LoL/DotA 2 many times and can't enjoy watching it at all... does that mean it's a bad game? No... It's like the 1.6 vs. CSS debate... 1.6 kids desperately hold on to their game and call CSS shit when it really isn't... is 1.6 a bit better? That's debatable... I think 1.6/BW users are just afraid to move to SC2/CSS in fear of possibly not being as good at the game because it has to be relearned. I don't mean this comment as inflammatory in any way possible, it's my person belief. I made the switch from both 1.6 and BW some time ago, and I made the switch when both games were in beta and to be fair CSS/SC2 in beta was absolute dog shit... but I knew it was the future so I held on. I still watch both games and enjoy them both equally... Cute because when i quit sc2 I had just gone through a 10 game winning streak while I had never managed to get a 30% winrate in bw  | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
 interesting interview , and ofc is hard to see a sport that you think will last forever , dying . | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1377 Posts
but hows the situation if you never watched any bw? maybe sc2 will be for you what bw is for coach yeong and the other oldschool guys. | ||
Jonvvv
Norway1530 Posts
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:46 imperator-xy wrote: if you played, taught and watched bw for like 12 years, every other game will not be fun to watch compared to bw because it was your first game and you want every game to be like bw. but hows the situation if you never watched any bw? maybe sc2 will be for you what bw is for coach yeong and the other oldschool guys. I've watched SC2 first before BW. I mean I played BW when I was 9 but never found out about the pro scene or this site until the SC2 beta. I've come to appreciate BW just as much and perhaps even more than SC2. TBH, without day9, I probably would have left SC2. I didn't watch any HD or Husky vids since a year and I used to be hooked up to them back in the days of HDH. I still thinks SC2 can be great, I'm cautiously optimistic about it. I really don't like how Kespa handled the transition though. | ||
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Proseat
Germany5113 Posts
 There are many reasons why SC2 hasn't taken off in Korea as much as BW yet. Obviously, BW is a free game, you can just go to a PC bang and load it up. No need to register an account or anything if you just want to play some friendly LAN games. BW has also been broadcast and widely advertised on Korean TV (OGN, MBC, ...) which is a lot more accessible than having to sit at a computer with extra software needed to be installed (e.g. GOMplayer). There is no level playing field here to make a good comparison. Bottom line is that there will always be so called conservatists who ache at the prospect of change. But you can't always let them get their way or you will never have real innovation and perpetuation. And while some BW pros are understandably anxious they might not be doing well in SC2 (their basis for earning a livelihood), they still understood that things must move forward to keep the business running. They gave it a chance and so should we. As, you know, things didn't look so swell for BW in the year 2000 either. Anyways, thanks for translating the interview! | ||
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Xkalibert
United States1404 Posts
for example this technique i have not seem use in sc2 pro game yet. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On May 29 2012 03:23 Asp wrote: There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said. None of these are objective, they are merely your opinion (ie. subjective). Oreo7 already explained this. Please stop the elitism, it's hurting my brain. BW is an AMAZING game, but stop letting shit cloud your mind. | ||
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gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On May 29 2012 06:55 Proseat wrote: Funny to see TheMarine as a player back then, and now as a commentator on OGN. There are many reasons why SC2 hasn't taken off in Korea as much as BW yet. Obviously, BW is a free game, you can just go to a PC bang and load it up. No need to register an account or anything if you just want to play some friendly LAN games. BW has also been broadcast and widely advertised on Korean TV (OGN, MBC, ...) which is a lot more accessible than having to sit at a computer with extra software needed to be installed (e.g. GOMplayer). There is no level playing field here to make a good comparison. Bottom line is that there will always be so called conservatists who ache at the prospect of change. But you can't always let them get their way or you will never have real innovation and perpetuation. And while some BW pros are understandably anxious they might not be doing well in SC2 (their basis for earning a livelihood), they still understood that things must move forward to keep the business running. They gave it a chance and so should we. As, you know, things didn't look so swell for BW in the year 2000 either. Anyways, thanks for translating the interview! This is an incredibly reasonable approach to the issue, and a breath of fresh air. I wholeheartedly agree, and while we'll all mourn what we cannot have we should try to see what is being given to us instead for what it really is and not judging it without actually giving it a chance. | ||
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rasers
Sweden691 Posts
On May 29 2012 07:17 Xkalibert wrote: There are things in sc2 that haven't been discover, give it time and chance and people will change their mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpewAEQCUB0 for example this technique i have not seem use in sc2 pro game yet. yeah gogogo wait for the 2 expansions ) before that the game is bad? or what? "wait wait wait wait wait wait" u guys say that since the beta.User was warned for this post | ||
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TrainSamurai
339 Posts
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching. Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?" Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different. On May 29 2012 06:08 Iplaythings wrote: Also quit the BW depth vs SC2 depth discussion, it's impossible to discuss properly since the games were so different in the beginning stages of their respective metagames. This how every sc2 vs BW thread ends up. Sc2 fans make stupid claim, gets shot down this card gets played. Every single freakin time. I've heard enough excuses on why sc2 is not popular in korea. Gom is the most used media player in SK. People just don't like the game. Get over it. On May 29 2012 07:55 rasers wrote: yeah gogogo wait for the 2 expansions ) before that the game is bad? or what? "wait wait wait wait wait wait" u guys say that since the beta.It is all about the stories. "Our game was bad but it became good because of the community man." | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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OSM.OneManArmy
United States509 Posts
On May 29 2012 07:17 Xkalibert wrote: There are things in sc2 that haven't been discover, give it time and chance and people will change their mind. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpewAEQCUB0 for example this technique i have not seem use in sc2 pro game yet. hahaha thats sick, using on hellion maybe?  anyhoo, i kindof agree with the coach though. kespa really could have kept bw alive >.> | ||
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