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On May 29 2012 08:08 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote:
I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching. Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?" Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different.
.... No, no it doesn't fall apart. Did you even read what I wrote? He, and others, say "SC2 just isn't fun to watch". I counter by pointing out that a lot of people watch SC2. So either those 100,000+ viewers are sadomachists or that statement is bullshit.
Also, have you seen me post in the Jaedong interview threads? No? That's because I didn't. I don't know what imaginary SC2-fan you're arguing against but I'm not that person.
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On May 29 2012 08:08 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote:
I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching. Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?" Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 06:08 Iplaythings wrote:
Also quit the BW depth vs SC2 depth discussion, it's impossible to discuss properly since the games were so different in the beginning stages of their respective metagames.
This how every sc2 vs BW thread ends up. Sc2 fans make stupid claim, gets shot down this card gets played. Every single freakin time. I've heard enough excuses on why sc2 is not popular in korea. Gom is the most used media player in SK. People just don't like the game. Get over it. Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 07:55 rasers wrote:yeah gogogo wait for the 2 expansions  ) before that the game is bad? or what? "wait wait wait wait wait wait" u guys say that since the beta. It is all about the stories. "Our game was bad but it became good because of the community man."
you sound kinda retarded
ive never taken part in any bw-sc2-discussion fights. now i know why i didnt and why ill never ever do
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United States7639 Posts
On May 29 2012 03:06 RageCommodore wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 02:52 hydrogg wrote:On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote:
True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while. You say it as if it's objectively true? If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague. You realize that the timing slot that PL is in at the moment is very bad for the most live spectators, right? The biggest part of the people that would attend PL matches are either working or at school at that time. I'm pretty sure that the attendance will go back to normal when they fix that.
A poor excuse. For the first half of the last PL season, the weekday matches were held at 4PM KST, which was only an hour later than it is right now (3PM KST), and attendance was still extremely high (e.g. this match, which took place on a Wednesday afternoon in December). And that hour is completely negligible, since current PL games run well past 4PM anyway. Personally, I couldn't attend most of the weekday afternoon matches, because, as you might expect, I had class. But the two times I did ditch class in order to go watch, it was totally packed. Not only were there no open seats, even the standing area barely had room. Trust me, it's not the time slot. It's the content.
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On May 29 2012 09:47 imperator-xy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 08:08 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote:
I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching. Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?" Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different. On May 29 2012 06:08 Iplaythings wrote:
Also quit the BW depth vs SC2 depth discussion, it's impossible to discuss properly since the games were so different in the beginning stages of their respective metagames.
This how every sc2 vs BW thread ends up. Sc2 fans make stupid claim, gets shot down this card gets played. Every single freakin time. I've heard enough excuses on why sc2 is not popular in korea. Gom is the most used media player in SK. People just don't like the game. Get over it. On May 29 2012 07:55 rasers wrote:yeah gogogo wait for the 2 expansions ) before that the game is bad? or what? "wait wait wait wait wait wait" u guys say that since the beta. It is all about the stories. "Our game was bad but it became good because of the community man." The people you quoted sound kinda retarded ive never taken part in any bw-sc2-discussion fights. now i know why i didnt and why ill never ever do
There we go.
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IMO the one thing that made BW so amazing is the evolution it went trough. From Boxer to Flash there happened so much to the way BW is played. I remember when i first started regurarly watching pro BW (around 2007) one of the thoughts that really amazed me was: "wow, they are still playing BW and they have gotten that good". Another highlight as a casual BW player and regular BW spectator was when the Fantasy build got popular. The fact that after so many years and already established meta/standard game someone came up with such a fresh and exciting startegy (that worked) just reinforced my love for BW even more.
Now im not saying SC2 couldnt have such a evolution and become as great as BW too. The problem i have with SC2 is that i get the feeling that Blizzard has a idea of how SC2 should be played and they are patching according to it. So pros dont have that possibility to discover something new because if they did it would get patched.
One thing in this interview really hit the spot for me and that was when he said that BW was made by a foreign company (Blizzard ofc) but that the e-sport was created by us (South Koreans).
Players like Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash and many more have made BW so awesome because they reached skill levels that werent imaginable before or because they found ways to play that werent predicted by Blizzard.
Just imagine Blizzard would have controlled the way BW had to be played like they do with SC2, all the above mentioned players would be faceless.
I followed SC2 with passion in its first year or so and i remember there was a patch where Blizz nerfed thors and defended their decision with the argument that they dont want thors to be a massable unit. That was a huge turn off to me because suddendly i got the feeling that Blizz made the game for themselves and not for the community and esports.
This are reasons why i as a spectator cant really be passionate about SC2 for the pros and teams there is ofcourse also that element of uncertainty that comes with SC2 being released in episodes and being patched all the time. Would you want to make the very risky decision to give up school to become a pro in a game that will change totally in 2 years?
Another statement was "SC2 is not fun to watch". While i agree with posters before me who said that this is a subjective statement, there is still a little truth in it. Blizzard somehow got the idea that for a game to become a esport it needs to get rid of all randomness. This may be true to a certain degree (especially from the perspective of a skilled pro player) but from a spectators point of view this is false. Just think about reavers, that moment when the scarab starts to fly towards a clump of workers. There is so much tension in this moment when you dont know if it will do damage or not and its a important reason why people are excited about BW. In SC2 such moments dont really exist.
Its not a coincidence that football wich has a lot of randomness has much more viewers than chess. For outsiders (people who dont play the sport themselves) these random moments are what make them excited about the sport. When a underdog wins against Barca, during the penalty shootouts or when a ball touches the net in tennis and you dont know on wich side it lands these are the moments that let emotions come up and its what the casual viewers like the most.
Edit:
Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate SC2 or find it totally boring (i still love to watch MLG for example). But i kinda feel its still in beta and will be until legacy of the void is out.
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The part of where Coach Jung mentions 'SC2 just isn't fun to watch' I have to agree with him, but you really have to take in the point of view of the Korean community, they are the core spectators in events inside Korea, and if the good chunk of Koreans aren't buying into it, then it's damn hard to grow.
There is that magic in BW that's irreplaceable and cannot be replicated in SC2 and that magic is what the spectators feed on (that edge of your seat feeling). At the moment, it merely just feels like a placebo to me.
Yes, over 100k people watched SC2 at some event, sure it's fun to watch..... well... for them.
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On May 29 2012 09:28 nadafanboy42 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 08:08 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote:
I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching. Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?" Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different. .... No, no it doesn't fall apart. Did you even read what I wrote? He, and others, say "SC2 just isn't fun to watch". I counter by pointing out that a lot of people watch SC2. So either those 100,000+ viewers are sadomachists or that statement is bullshit. Also, have you seen me post in the Jaedong interview threads? No? That's because I didn't. I don't know what imaginary SC2-fan you're arguing against but I'm not that person.
Do you even remember why GSL had to introduce that whole stupid invite a foreigner crap in the first place? It was because people were watching MLG, despite GSL being hier tier competition. There were millions of threads about it and everyone admitted that they were after stories. The story has not changed much since then :
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=330880
That was the only one I managed to remember. There was a massive thread about it on the sc2 forum. Again, stories.
All I'm saying is sc2 as a game is really a secondary reason why people even watch it.
And my 2nd point was re sc2 fans in general. "OMG JAEDONG LIKES STEPHANO WE'RE ALL BEING VALIDATED AT LAST" attitude is what I was referring to.
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On May 29 2012 09:55 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 03:06 RageCommodore wrote:On May 29 2012 02:52 hydrogg wrote:On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote:
True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while. You say it as if it's objectively true? If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague. You realize that the timing slot that PL is in at the moment is very bad for the most live spectators, right? The biggest part of the people that would attend PL matches are either working or at school at that time. I'm pretty sure that the attendance will go back to normal when they fix that. A poor excuse. For the first half of the last PL season, the weekday matches were held at 4PM KST, which was only an hour later than it is right now (3PM KST), and attendance was still extremely high (e.g. this match, which took place on a Wednesday afternoon in December). And that hour is completely negligible, since current PL games run well past 4PM anyway. Personally, I couldn't attend most of the weekday afternoon matches, because, as you might expect, I had class. But the two times I did ditch class in order to go watch, it was totally packed. Not only were there no open seats, even the standing area barely had room. Trust me, it's not the time slot. It's the content.
Yeah, that is what I thought because despite poor timeslots last season, the place was packed. This season, I think less than 10 people were at a PL match or something like that?
Props to him for saying what is on his mind and no less. So many people are afraid to do that nowadays.
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On May 29 2012 11:26 jpak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 09:55 Kiett wrote:On May 29 2012 03:06 RageCommodore wrote:On May 29 2012 02:52 hydrogg wrote:On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote:
True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while. You say it as if it's objectively true? If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague. You realize that the timing slot that PL is in at the moment is very bad for the most live spectators, right? The biggest part of the people that would attend PL matches are either working or at school at that time. I'm pretty sure that the attendance will go back to normal when they fix that. A poor excuse. For the first half of the last PL season, the weekday matches were held at 4PM KST, which was only an hour later than it is right now (3PM KST), and attendance was still extremely high (e.g. this match, which took place on a Wednesday afternoon in December). And that hour is completely negligible, since current PL games run well past 4PM anyway. Personally, I couldn't attend most of the weekday afternoon matches, because, as you might expect, I had class. But the two times I did ditch class in order to go watch, it was totally packed. Not only were there no open seats, even the standing area barely had room. Trust me, it's not the time slot. It's the content. Yeah, that is what I thought because despite poor timeslots last season, the place was packed. This season, I think less than 10 people were at a PL match or something like that? Props to him for saying what is on his mind and no less. So many people are afraid to do that nowadays.
Pretty sure there were more people watching BW when it was the same timeslot during the Bo7 ace match period.
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Thanks for translating!
Now there's something I would like to add- If someone of a higher figure said something about SC2 being viewer-unfriendly in his country, maybe you should just respect his point of view because he is there in person to judge, not someone who just sits in front of the computer pulling out statistics to rebut.
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thanks for the translation, nice to see someone speaking what he feels
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Really good insightful interview. I learned a lot.
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Interesting interview, but I really do disagree with him on so many points.
I disagree with his opinions on SC2 (from a base standpoint, I will only ever listen to the 'easier/more fun for casuals to watch' argument when it actually comes from a casual spectator and not a zealous supporter of one or the other game). Even beyond SC2 though, he seems to be a person who has become hopelessly tied to the nostalgic idea of 'the golden age', unable to enjoy the present because of his fond memories of the past.
I actually never really liked him too much when he was still coaching either though. He certainly had a reputation and you can pretty easily still see it bleed through in his martyr-like response to the memes and insistence that modern coaches don't understand the idea of leadership. Even his proposal to nal_ra, though generous, was such a strange proposition that thankfully nalra did not take. It shows an overly strong focus on the concept of star and ace players and a disregard for rookies (unless they themselves happened to beat a star). He even proudly shows off his disinterest from potential rookie terrans simply because of their race (imagine how flash might have come up in such conditions).
Still, he was an important figure and even though his win streak accomplishment was largely fueled by that purchased all star line-up, it's definitely impressive. Plenty of teams have had nigh unbeatable lineups since and have not been able to match it. I feel like there is a reason it was a streak and not a championship though, and that might be the most telling part about him as a coach.
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^I think during the Old Boy show, it was said that the old KTF never won a championship because there were so many big stars thus big egos on the team so people didn't want to work with each other. Nowadays, KT have a reputation for being an extremely close knit team and it was said time and time again in interviews by their players as one of the main reasons why they think they're doing well.
This guy certainly have a superiority complex of some kind, not sure if I'd want him as a coach if I was a player. He kind of comes off as one of those very authoritarian, conservative and xenophobic type.
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51568 Posts
9) KTF coach incident.
This was when KTF was hosting the premere league thing and had like 8 of the 16 players from KTF. Each team's head coach was supposed to show up for a meeting but Daniel Lee of Hexatron couldn't make it and he sent Jinnam and Jinsoo instead. KTF coach got pissed because he thought he was being ignored and said to the brothers "I will make sure you will never again play in the premere league if you come out this way" Jinnam Jinsu got pissed and wrote about it on their homepage..and it was a big controversy because at that time there was talk about how the KTF coach manipulated the players who got into the league.
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident.
KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
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On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +9) KTF coach incident.
This was when KTF was hosting the premere league thing and had like 8 of the 16 players from KTF. Each team's head coach was supposed to show up for a meeting but Daniel Lee of Hexatron couldn't make it and he sent Jinnam and Jinsoo instead. KTF coach got pissed because he thought he was being ignored and said to the brothers "I will make sure you will never again play in the premere league if you come out this way" Jinnam Jinsu got pissed and wrote about it on their homepage..and it was a big controversy because at that time there was talk about how the KTF coach manipulated the players who got into the league.
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident.
KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
The point 10 is kinda disturbing to be honest. Although I understand it's something that sometimes work in Asian culture, it's still disturbing that a coach did that in a professional level.
BTW, where does the quote comes from, GTR? If it's possible, could you like me to the full article, please?
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51568 Posts
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On May 29 2012 04:14 I_are_n00b wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 03:43 Veldril wrote:On May 29 2012 02:35 RavenLoud wrote:On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote:
Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that. He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics. The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him. When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game. On May 29 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote:On May 29 2012 03:23 Asp wrote:On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote:
True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while. You say it as if it's objectively true? There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said. Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective. "BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective. "objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective. "makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective. You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it. I would say BW's strategy is deeper than SC2 right now, which is natural because the game is out longer. Unit design is debatable, most BW units are really good, while some are not (I still hate Overlord having detection and scout). Battle interesting to watch is purely subjective because BW and SC2 appeal on different parts. So... everything's subjective and we should all just never compare anything...? My reasons for why BW units are better: - BW units are better because it wasn't design by committee. Everything a unit in sc2 had an ounce of fun to watch/use (e.g. reaper + bunker harass) it was claimed "OP" and they nerfed it.-The units that carried over from BW to SC2 were mostly nerfed and lost their identity in the original game. Carriers (capital ship, game ender), zealots (hard to kill, relatively lower DPS), hydras (all purpose unit, you can tell especially from SC1/BW cinematic movies), etc etc... -You don't like how the overlord is a detector? A zerg ability that actually makes zerg a little different from the other races? Blasphemy, let's "enhance" the game by making it a morph ability. -A bunch of BS units that Blizzard just made up that doesn't even fit the theme of the races. Seriously guys, the roach and the sentry seem like 2 BS units that the designers just threw in there for balance. They don't fit at all into the look/feel of the races. Protoss is supposed to be overly high tech, clunky and expensive, kind of like the modern US army or something. Zerg is supposed to be swarmy, fast, lots of blood and death but beat you by quantity, starship troopers style. The roach, sentry don't exhibit any of these qualities. My reasons for why BW has deeper strategy than SC2: I'm not sure you remember the early days of BW. People actually came up with lots of rush strategies and (V-Gundam rush, lots of 4 pools and BBs's, manner hatch with a big sunken line in front of opponent base, tank drop/boxing, etc...). Why? Because there were so many possibilities for each race. Players also executed many strategies that used mind games, even to this day. Even the game didn't mature and players didn't have the concept of macro, hard timings, etc... in BW, you could literally sit down, write on a piece of paper your plan for winning and then try to execute it. In SC2, it's just a big math problem. How do I get the most amount of Unit X at Y minutes while disregarding mind games and player reaction. I think the medium of Brood War actually allowed players to beat their opponents in a personal way. By knowing Yellow always 12 hatch expands, Boxer beat him 3-0 by bunker rushing him in a final. More recently, by knowing Flash's scan patterns, Stardust or whatever beat him PvT. The medium of brood war is superior because the medium itself is not as restrictive. You can take a chance and not lost to a superior mathematical equation involving a roach timing. I think SC2 is a very popular version of Warcraft 3. I play it and occasionally watch it but it's not a phenomenon I'm interested in following ahead of football, basketball, etc... like BW was.
You will be surprised by how many early game rushs sc2 has. It may has even more than BW.
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United States20661 Posts
KTF 
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On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote:
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident.
KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
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EPT
