[People] Ex-coach Jung Soo-yeong: "Not winning a single season is something to regret over a millennium"
Ex-coach of KTF Magic N's Jung Soo-yeong.
"No place for second place."
In the world of professionals and heated competition, second place might as well be last place. All the spotlight goes to the victor. It has been no different for E-sports. KTF Magic N's (now KT Rolster) is the quintessence of this sentiment. KTF was called the Real Madrid of E-sports and was deemed the best team to have tread the scene, but has never won it all on the big stage. KTF went on a 23-win-streak from 2004 to 2005 and set a new record for most consecutive wins, but that was about it. Their memories live on in that single accomplishment during the regular season, because they have never held the trophy up high in the grand finals.
Still, the achievement does have some meaning. During the decade of E-sports history, the record for most consecutive wins has not been broken. Some may argue that the record is not a big feat when looking at their star-studded lineup of members such as Nal_rA, Reach, YellOw, Sync, ChoJJa, and TheMarine, which was often called the 'Galactico' [Reference to Real Madrid's policy of buying in star players]. However, it holds meaning in that no teams thereafter have come close to that record either. We met up with Coach Jung Soo-yeong, who managed the team when this record was established.
Q As Proleague is switching over to Starcraft2, a lot of people seem to be forgetting the history of E-sports, so we wanted to interview you. A Since its inception, E-sports has made its mark in history. At one point, it established its own empire, but those times are now past and I don't think they will return (laughs).
Q What have you been up to since the GomTV match director? Tell us about what you've been up to since stepping down from the commands of KTF. A I have been preparing to launch a business in the gaming industry. You will be able to see it sometime soon. Part of it involves the E-sports scene as well. It's hard for me to divulge any information at this point.
Q Before the whole umpiring system was implemented you had the opportunity to stay at GomTV and architect a new infrastructure for monitoring games. Why did you quit. A Of course I thought of that. But if I had carried on, it would have been against KeSPA policy. It would have been great if KeSPA did a better job. I had a lot of thoughts in my head but decided it best to give my full support to KeSPA's initiative. There would be no need for me to umpire once KeSPA implemented their own system, but there still had to be someone to settle controversies in a situation where progamers are involved.
Q KTF achieved the feat of 23 consecutive wins, but the team's accomplishments are marred by the fact that it has no ring. Regrettably, the team only won it all once Coach Lee JiHoon replaced you. A It breaks my heart. We only won the event-matches on the side. It kills me that we were never able to win an official season final. However, I am only thankful that Lee JiHoon, who was once a player for KTF, achieved what I couldn't. When he finally led the team to victory, I could only think 'I should have done better.' It's a shame that players such as Nal_Ra had to experience such pain.
I had the opportunity to meet up with the players recently and we talked with a smile on our faces. They also said that they 'regret' it to this day. Some voiced that KT would not have won without Flash and I agree that a team needs a 'Keyman' to win. The Chicago Bulls won three championships in a row because they had Michael Jordan. Baseball and soccer are the same. Flash was able to generate a synergy effect among KT's players. [Flash's effect on the team] is a fact and should not be understated. It breaks my heart to hear such things.
Q Your pupils such as Yellow and Lee JiHoon are now becoming coaches. How do you feel when you look at the transitions? A I believe coaches need to lead their players by example. There is no official training course for coaches at the moment. There needs to be a comprehensive course for leadership. I don't understand why there has been no initiative to start an intra-league leadership course in E-sports' 10-year-long history. As players retire, a lot of them naturally transition into a coaching position. South Korea is among the top E-sports countries, yet we have not yet developed a sound model. I believe a coach must have some prerequisite knowledge of the E-sports culture, rules, and the players' mentality.
◆"Want to change my nickname 'Baseball Bat Jung'" KTF was the only corporate sponsored team in the early 2000's. A lot of players from non-sponsored teams were moving into KTF so they would see more action and have their talents properly assessed. In the process, the best of the best, such as Nal_rA, ChoJJa, YellOw, NaDa, etc all came under one roof. Fans often criticized KTF for buying talent. KTF, even with their star-studded-lineup, never won a championship, however. Until Coach Lee JiHoon led the team to victory, KTF was never able to escape their reputation as the silver surfer.
To many, Coach Jung Soo Yeong of the best team in the league seemed cold. Maybe it was the sunglasses and baseball cap he donned at every match. Fans started calling him 'Baseball bat Jeong.' [Parents and teachers used to beat children with a baseball bat to teach them a lesson. Even up to the point where I went to high school, which was in the early 2000's, this was the norm, but now I think child-abuse laws have tightened in Korea and teachers can no longer do this]
Q Your nickname as coach was 'Baseball bat Jeong.' Were you going for a particular concept with your baseball cap and shades? A When I was part of the Samsung team, the uniform was modeled after racing car uniforms. It was a one-piece so it was difficult to put on and it wasn't well ventilated, so it was very hot, but it provided the most real estate for corporate sponsors' logos. Even to this day, race car drivers are walking billboards. In E-sports, there can be many smaller sponsors for each team outside of their main one, and we chose the uniform to provide them advertisement space.
When I became head coach of KTF, our uniforms changed. One thing that the head coach can do on air is to give the sponsors as much air time as possible, so I wore a jumper and baseball cap. I wore the shades to hide my gaze from the opposing team.
Q I think your outfit fueled the fans' mockery. A I don't think my 'cold' image had much to do with the bad rumors that were circulating about me. As I gained the nickname 'Baseball bat Jeong,' lots of memes started to crop up on the web but I never paid much attention with the thought that I would absorb the negative attention that would otherwise be redirected towards members of the team. However, now that I am getting older it has been a problem, because my children have been made fun of due to my nickname. My child has had a very hard time at school up to sixth grade. Once, they asked what I did as a living and they saw the 'Baseball bat Jeong' meme that was uploaded on the internet. Afterwards, my child had a hard time playing with them.
It might have been a joke to the fans but the repercussions on the receiving end are real. I hope that in the future people can think in the victim's perspective before making uploading such things. If somebody had made a meme victimizing them, what would happen to their reputation? Also, what would their loved ones think?
It's hard to withstand abuse that flies your way simply because you are a public figure often exposed to the limelight. Would you believe it if I told you my child had to transfer schools due to the abuse from his peers and I contemplated changing my name multiple times. The reality of my son not being able to say that his father was the head coach of a progaming team proudly pains me.
Q There were a lot of star players but also many mediocre ones who were forgotten from our memory. Who was the most memorable player you coached? A Nal_ra stands out in memory. Coach Cho (Ex-coach of CJ, retired after the match-fixing scandal) also complimented him without reserve. I met him recently and he has become even more mature. I didn't want to play him the first year he joined because his practice results weren't great. I gave him a year and told him to return as the 'Ultimate Weapon' when he has realized his full potential. The terms stated that he would receive full salary even during his year off, yet he hesitated. I gave him these outrageous conditions because I believed that the E-sports scene needed a domineering force such as BoxeR of the early 2000's. Boxer was the best player and achieved good results in each and every event he participated in. Players who beat him were automatically brought to fame. I thought we needed a player like that, so I strategically decided on Nal_ra. He needed to be the best in order to follow in Boxer's footsteps.
However he did not accept the terms and kept trying by entering the preliminaries of OSL, MSL, WCG, etc, and kept failing to advance, which in turn lowered his reputation further and further.
As a means of saving his reputation from falling beyond an irrecoverable state, we agreed to send him out in every Proleague ace match. We thought once the teams caught on that Nal_ra would always be there in the ace match, and they still lost, he would become the guardian angel of the team, so we gave him this heavy burden. He was under much less pressure during Proleague games, and played the crucial role of anchor during our 23-win-streak.
There's a little anecdote tied to this period. Back then you could send the same player during the games leading up to ace, and also during the ace match, so we sent him out in the first game multiple times, but he just couldn't win those games. He would, however, shine in the ace match, regardless of how unfavorable the maps were to protoss. We all came to agree that Nal_ra was born to be our ace.
Q This was a long time ago, but during those 23 consecutive wins, was there ever a time when you felt threatened? A Twice I felt that way. The first occurred when we played Hanbit Stars (now Woongjin Stars). I couldn't attend the match due to a corporate workshop. I checked on the players the morning before the match, and they were still practicing so I was worried. Usually, if they feel like they got ample practice the night before, they would be sleeping in until 11 or noon to go into the match relaxed. However, they had woken up early to continue practicing. I realized they were ill-prepared but I had to attend the workshop so I left. I received a text at the workshop that we were losing 0:2 and didn't get another text until much later. I thought the players had lost and weren't texting me because they felt sorry, but when I went back to the dormitory, they said they came back to win it 3:2.
The second came during our match against Plus (Ex-Lecaf Oz). We were losing 1:2 before coming back. Coach Cho (of Oz) kept cheesing us to discontinue our win-streak but our players were able to react calmly and clinch the win. After the match, I remember teasing Coach Cho, saying "you wanted to stop our win-streak that bad?"
Our win-streak came to an end at the hands of Samsung. Honestly, we could have continued our streak, but the maps were changed suddenly due to a managerial problem. The players were fired up to continue our win-streak past 30, so when this occurred, they all seemed very disappointed.
KTF of the 2004 SKY Proleague. Coach Jeong and two protoss heroes.
◆"If E-sports had taken a more casual-friendly approach" Ever since Coach Jung stepped down from head coach of KTF in March, 2006, every time a new team was established, he was at the top of the candidate list for head coach. However, he merely observed the scene as an outsider for 7 years. Every time the topic of E-sports was brought up, we could feel his passion seeping into his words, but he emphasized that the players that are now left "need to pull their weight." Although he is nothing but a shadow of the past now, people will have a hard time forgetting the name 'Jung Soo Yeong.' Nobody who achieves a feat such as 23 consecutive wins is easily forgotten from history.
Q Any plans of returning to E-sports? A Even if I returned, I know the kingdom of E-sports from the glory days will never return. I hope the remaining players can pull their weight.
Q If you were given a chance to lead a team and allowed to select any players you wanted, who would you choose? Would you go after the elusive championship once again? A From terrans, I would pick SKT's Canata and Fantasy. Protoss, I would pick Samsung KHAN's Stork and SKT's Bisu, and zerg, I would pick KT's HoeJJa and Woongjin's ZerO. I think we could win a championship with that lineup. [As an avid JD fan, I respectfully disagree, sir]. The reason I didn't pick Flash and Jaedong is because in order to grow as a player in the current scene, you must slay the final bosses on your journey. They are the best of the best. When Boxer was the best player in the world, just one win against Boxer brought instant fame to the player. Currently, Flash and Jaedong hold the throne of E-sports. With the development of the entire E-sports scene in mind, creating a new star player by demolishing and standing toe-to-toe with them is I believe the best approach to revive the scene. [I translated liberally from context, he doesn't actually say 'revive' explicitly.]
When I was leading KTF Magic N's, terran was a weak race. As a result, we sometimes passed on a promising rookie solely based on the fact that he played terran. It was no fun beating a terran with terran. It felt like terran tears ran sweeter when slayed at the hands of zerg or protoss. I think we would be able to win a championship with those players. I would train them Jung Soo Yeong style, and win a championship.
Q As Proleague is now switching over to SC2, history must be rewritten. How would you want SC2 PL to progress from this point on? A When compared to BW, the biggest difference is that SC2 just isn't fun to watch [Ouch]. For BW, you could know jack about the game but still enjoy it because there was a ubiquitous element of fun throughout the game. In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games. That's the reason why WC3 ultimately failed. Who would watch when the game itself isn't fun to watch. And where would the motivation for casuals to learn the game come from. Casual fans judge a game based on how fun it is to watch. In that sense BW's appeal is more direct.
As the ability to run is prerequisite to virtually every sport, BW forms the bedrocks of E-sports. BW must stick around as the root of E-sports. There must be a sounder infrastructure in place. To those who criticize BW for being closed off to South Korea: did we get to where we are through entering foreign tournaments? No, it was the other way around: we inspired foreign entities to hold tournaments through displaying our passion. Once that passion was gone, our hegemony was passed onto the foreign scene. Of course there may be a logical fallacy in the fact that BW was made by a foreign company, but essentially we made BW E-sports happen. I think it's shortsighted to switch over [to SC2] based on short term goals and is something that eats away at the roots of E-sports.
You cannot artificially create an E-sports scene. Even with the FPS leagues, if KeSPA had carefully considered and incorporated the public's reception into the equation, embracing the fans' voice, they would not be in the predicament that they find themselves in right now. I believe a bottom-up approach with a governing body that merely organizes and facilitates the fans' natural penchants is the only way to expand E-sports further.
* If you wanna discuss SC1 vs SC2, do so in a civil manner, and if you can't, flame each other via PM, because I don't want this thread closed down due to incessant bickering. Thanks GTR for suggesting the article.
I remember when I used to despise him for his inability to have his players produce results. At the time I thought that he was to blame for the "KTF slump curse." But then again I wasn't really into BW back then. Its nice to see the other side of things at last, and I respect him so much more now that I understand.
Wow, great interview! A mix of past, present, and direct opinions- as a new-ish fan backstory and glimpses of back when are always appreciated. Liked his point about there needing to be final boss slayers so new stars can be created for the good of the scene. Just curious, what does he mean about the FPS leagues and the predicament that they are in right now?
Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
On May 29 2012 01:41 ellerina wrote: Wow, great interview! A mix of past, present, and direct opinions- as a new-ish fan backstory and glimpses of back when are always appreciated. Liked his point about there needing to be final boss slayers so new stars can be created for the good of the scene. Just curious, what does he mean about the FPS leagues and the predicament that they are in right now?
I'm not entirely sure what's going on. All I know is that 2 sponsors pulled out of the Special Force 2 league last season, leaving the league with 6 teams. In order for 7 teams to start the new season, Kespa allowed a team from Chunnam Techno College to join.
True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You cannot artificially create an E-sports scene. Even with the FPS leagues, if KeSPA had carefully considered and incorporated the public's reception into the equation, embracing the fans' voice, they would not be in the predicament that they find themselves in right now.
Indeed. Though in moderation, seeing what the SC2 threads look like.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague.
You realize that this means absolutely nothing right? If I were to put on an SC2 tournament in EU/NA I'd most probably get more viewership than if it was a BW one. You can't say that SC2 is, or isn't, fun to watch just as you can't objectively say that hockey is or isn't fun to watch.
Some people find it fun to watch and other people don't. He said a lot of VERY wise things and I completely agree that with a lot of them, but just because he doesn't enjoy watching SC2 doesn't mean that no one else does.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague.
You realize that the timing slot that PL is in at the moment is very bad for the most live spectators, right? The biggest part of the people that would attend PL matches are either working or at school at that time. I'm pretty sure that the attendance will go back to normal when they fix that.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague.
Good interview, pretty good insight on the coaching job, even though I wish they asked him more questions about that. The debate about sc2 and the PL audience is fascinating nonetheless.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague.
You realize that the timing slot that PL is in at the moment is very bad for the most live spectators, right? The biggest part of the people that would attend PL matches are either working or at school at that time. I'm pretty sure that the attendance will go back to normal when they fix that.
Wasn't the proleague timing slot at the beginning of last season also bad yet people continued to attend?
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
I would say BW's strategy is deeper than SC2 right now, which is natural because the game is out longer. Unit design is debatable, most BW units are really good, while some are not (I still hate Overlord having detection and scout not fitting in any role). Battle interesting to watch is purely subjective because BW and SC2 appeal on different parts.
to be fair, LoL seems to have exploded in korea and I'm not sure that is a casual friendly spectator game (I haven't played nor watched LoL, but know a little bit about dota/dota 2).
You probably don't just watch LoL/other mobas and understand much about the items/what is going on except that it's a 5v5 and some spells/team fights go on, that can be fun to see without knowing the details. But to get into the game you probably want to play with a friend who is already into it.
Good interview. His opinions aren't meant to be taken for universal truth but it's nice to see more and more "insiders" not afraid to talk bluntly about the current affairs.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
I would say BW's strategy is deeper than SC2 right now, which is natural because the game is out longer. Unit design is debatable, most BW units are really good, while some are not (I still hate Overlord having detection and scout). Battle interesting to watch is purely subjective because BW and SC2 appeal on different parts.
Let's just put it this way for a new comer to the starcraft scene sc2 is really appealing and I was watching nuke criticising sc2 visual and it having animation for every action that is on screen even the nexus have particles and things moving in . Seems really attractive and I have to admit it is really an amazing game for players who have already learn to grown the game with 3d rts such as wc3 and etc . In the end however like nuke said because of bw pre rendered 3d graphics there is limitation to the detail of the units and basically what we have on screens are units like chess pieces left to be interpreted and it can be anything depending on your perception .
However sc2 is so detail in everything it makes everything seems like an overkill which is wonderful for today's generation of gamer . You can't argue that sc2 units design are much more creative enough to topple down broodwar unit design it's simple yet if you are able to micro your units with more care it will live longer thanks to your extra love to that unit .Sc2 on the other hands has really awesome damage per second units killing everything in a matter of seconds this is not helping when players jumble up their units in to ball which effectively increase their damage output for some reason which in the end makes battle last really short compared to bw long engagement.
Well you say that bw strategy is deeper because of the history of the game ? Yeah I have to agree with you that because it's the player who made changes to the game today .Terran was weak until boxer started playing the race , Savior made the zergs race who they are today, Nal Ra pioneered FFE which was used extensively by Bisu in his fight against savior .So let's just say that sc2 will improve strategically than all by means go ahead I am already done with the arguing over a game and I won't be surprised if sc2 will not reach the level of strategic play bw has brought to the table .
In the coaches' interview, someone mentioned Starcraft 2 being not as fun to watch as a problem to be solved. I wonder what they would or could do. A mod, perhaps...? One can dream.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
I would say BW's strategy is deeper than SC2 right now, which is natural because the game is out longer. Unit design is debatable, most BW units are really good, while some are not (I still hate Overlord having detection and scout). Battle interesting to watch is purely subjective because BW and SC2 appeal on different parts.
So... everything's subjective and we should all just never compare anything...?
My reasons for why BW units are better: -BW units are better because it wasn't design by committee. Everything a unit in sc2 had an ounce of fun to watch/use (e.g. reaper + bunker harass) it was claimed "OP" and they nerfed it. -The units that carried over from BW to SC2 were mostly nerfed and lost their identity in the original game. Carriers (capital ship, game ender), zealots (hard to kill, relatively lower DPS), hydras (all purpose unit, you can tell especially from SC1/BW cinematic movies), etc etc... -You don't like how the overlord is a detector? A zerg ability that actually makes zerg a little different from the other races? Blasphemy, let's "enhance" the game by making it a morph ability. -A bunch of BS units that Blizzard just made up that doesn't even fit the theme of the races. Seriously guys, the roach and the sentry seem like 2 BS units that the designers just threw in there for balance. They don't fit at all into the look/feel of the races. Protoss is supposed to be overly high tech, clunky and expensive, kind of like the modern US army or something. Zerg is supposed to be swarmy, fast, lots of blood and death but beat you by quantity, starship troopers style. The roach, sentry don't exhibit any of these qualities.
My reasons for why BW has deeper strategy than SC2: I'm not sure you remember the early days of BW. People actually came up with lots of rush strategies and (V-Gundam rush, lots of 4 pools and BBs's, manner hatch with a big sunken line in front of opponent base, tank drop/boxing, etc...). Why? Because there were so many possibilities for each race. Players also executed many strategies that used mind games, even to this day. Even the game didn't mature and players didn't have the concept of macro, hard timings, etc... in BW, you could literally sit down, write on a piece of paper your plan for winning and then try to execute it. In SC2, it's just a big math problem. How do I get the most amount of Unit X at Y minutes while disregarding mind games and player reaction.
I think the medium of Brood War actually allowed players to beat their opponents in a personal way. By knowing Yellow always 12 hatch expands, Boxer beat him 3-0 by bunker rushing him in a final. More recently, by knowing Flash's scan patterns, Stardust or whatever beat him PvT. The medium of brood war is superior because the medium itself is not as restrictive. You can take a chance and not lost to a superior mathematical equation involving a roach timing.
I think SC2 is a very popular version of Warcraft 3. I play it and occasionally watch it but it's not a phenomenon I'm interested in following ahead of football, basketball, etc... like BW was.
plz stop being stupid, BW has deeper gameplay, this is a fact, subjective my ass... such statement can only be said from someone, who did not play BW, at serious level every players that reached at least rank B(from B- to B+) know this, BW is much much deeper as a game
thanks for the interview, nice to read what some old school thinks about future... sadly people always feel like ruining everything with their stupid fights.. you dont like a game? you like the other one? glhfgg just shut up already.. sigh
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote:
On May 29 2012 03:23 Asp wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
-A bunch of BS units that Blizzard just made up that doesn't even fit the theme of the races. Seriously guys, the roach and the sentry seem like 2 BS units that the designers just threw in there for balance. They don't fit at all into the look/feel of the races. Protoss is supposed to be overly high tech, clunky and expensive, kind of like the modern US army or something. Zerg is supposed to be swarmy, fast, lots of blood and death but beat you by quantity, starship troopers style. The roach, sentry don't exhibit any of these qualities. .
I never remember single player, but protoss was kind of mystic and magical--I mean a dragoon is like a reincarnated zealot, etc etc. Then bw of course had templars and their respective archons that certainly feel magical/mystic. Arbiter as well. A sentry fits in with that (force fields, and useful hallucinations). Warpgates are more mystical. They made the mothership to be a central magical unit. Collossi doesn't have anything mystic to it as opposed to "me big shoot lasers". I think the sentry makes sense for their direction of protoss (independent of how it affects the game).
they also redesigned zerg on purpose. I don't think anyone should argue sc2 zerg and bw zerg is remotely the same; sc2 zerg is the swarmy zerg (turtle on your own creep, slowly expand, then overrun with like 100 lings or banelings) while bw zerg was the positional battle with lurker/defiler/scourge to pick off drops (though I forget any of the lore for bw zerg; bw zerg is actually not that swarmy when played). I agree that the roach sucks as it's too beefy and added mainly just because otherwise warpgate would be too strong (same with marauders being so beefy; giving protoss a way to have early game units instantly reinforce the enemy's base means terran/zerg have to have beefy early game units to hold).
I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote:
On May 29 2012 03:23 Asp wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
I would say BW's strategy is deeper than SC2 right now, which is natural because the game is out longer. Unit design is debatable, most BW units are really good, while some are not (I still hate Overlord having detection and scout). Battle interesting to watch is purely subjective because BW and SC2 appeal on different parts.
So... everything's subjective and we should all just never compare anything...?
My reasons for why BW units are better: -BW units are better because it wasn't design by committee. Everything a unit in sc2 had an ounce of fun to watch/use (e.g. reaper + bunker harass) it was claimed "OP" and they nerfed it. -The units that carried over from BW to SC2 were mostly nerfed and lost their identity in the original game. Carriers (capital ship, game ender), zealots (hard to kill, relatively lower DPS), hydras (all purpose unit, you can tell especially from SC1/BW cinematic movies), etc etc... -You don't like how the overlord is a detector? A zerg ability that actually makes zerg a little different from the other races? Blasphemy, let's "enhance" the game by making it a morph ability. -A bunch of BS units that Blizzard just made up that doesn't even fit the theme of the races. Seriously guys, the roach and the sentry seem like 2 BS units that the designers just threw in there for balance. They don't fit at all into the look/feel of the races. Protoss is supposed to be overly high tech, clunky and expensive, kind of like the modern US army or something. Zerg is supposed to be swarmy, fast, lots of blood and death but beat you by quantity, starship troopers style. The roach, sentry don't exhibit any of these qualities.
My reasons for why BW has deeper strategy than SC2: I'm not sure you remember the early days of BW. People actually came up with lots of rush strategies and (V-Gundam rush, lots of 4 pools and BBs's, manner hatch with a big sunken line in front of opponent base, tank drop/boxing, etc...). Why? Because there were so many possibilities for each race. Players also executed many strategies that used mind games, even to this day. Even the game didn't mature and players didn't have the concept of macro, hard timings, etc... in BW, you could literally sit down, write on a piece of paper your plan for winning and then try to execute it. In SC2, it's just a big math problem. How do I get the most amount of Unit X at Y minutes while disregarding mind games and player reaction.
I think the medium of Brood War actually allowed players to beat their opponents in a personal way. By knowing Yellow always 12 hatch expands, Boxer beat him 3-0 by bunker rushing him in a final. More recently, by knowing Flash's scan patterns, Stardust or whatever beat him PvT. The medium of brood war is superior because the medium itself is not as restrictive. You can take a chance and not lost to a superior mathematical equation involving a roach timing.
I think SC2 is a very popular version of Warcraft 3. I play it and occasionally watch it but it's not a phenomenon I'm interested in following ahead of football, basketball, etc... like BW was.
That is why many things are subjective. If you said "my reasons...", then that means it's already subjective because you present your own personal opinions, which might not be true to other people.
And being subjective does not mean they are not comparable. It just means you need to be more careful when you want to compare things. For example, comparing which game has a deeper strategy is easier than which game is more fun to watch, because there's more evidence of how strategy evolves in the game and how long the game has been played. Saying one game is more fun to watch is purely based on the feeling and cannot be presented as objective.
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
They were just spoiled by a decade of top level BW...all for free btw.
SC2 isn't doing well in Korea at all, think about why instead of calling them idiots. Though I do see potential in SC2, I still respect his honesty.
I would disagree with a lot of what he said in particular about what he said about how watchable SC2 is and the future of E-Sports but from his prospective id say that would be how he sees it. Its hard not to look at just under 100k watching an SC2 grand finals or 300k watching LoL and think that the glory days are over for E-Sports.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote:
On May 29 2012 03:23 Asp wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
-A bunch of BS units that Blizzard just made up that doesn't even fit the theme of the races. Seriously guys, the roach and the sentry seem like 2 BS units that the designers just threw in there for balance. They don't fit at all into the look/feel of the races. Protoss is supposed to be overly high tech, clunky and expensive, kind of like the modern US army or something. Zerg is supposed to be swarmy, fast, lots of blood and death but beat you by quantity, starship troopers style. The roach, sentry don't exhibit any of these qualities. .
I never remember single player, but protoss was kind of mystic and magical--I mean a dragoon is like a reincarnated zealot, etc etc. Then bw of course had templars and their respective archons that certainly feel magical/mystic. Arbiter as well. A sentry fits in with that (force fields, and useful hallucinations). Warpgates are more mystical. They made the mothership to be a central magical unit. Collossi doesn't have anything mystic to it as opposed to "me big shoot lasers". I think the sentry makes sense for their direction of protoss (independent of how it affects the game).
they also redesigned zerg on purpose. I don't think anyone should argue sc2 zerg and bw zerg is remotely the same; sc2 zerg is the swarmy zerg (turtle on your own creep, slowly expand, then overrun with like 100 lings or banelings) while bw zerg was the positional battle with lurker/defiler/scourge to pick off drops (though I forget any of the lore for bw zerg; bw zerg is actually not that swarmy when played). I agree that the roach sucks as it's too beefy and added mainly just because otherwise warpgate would be too strong (same with marauders being so beefy; giving protoss a way to have early game units instantly reinforce the enemy's base means terran/zerg have to have beefy early game units to hold).
Mystical? Yes, but I think you're interpreting the dragoon incorrectly. Protoss warriors are supposed to live a life of servitude. The sentiment is not mysticism as it is fanatical support/honor like space samurais or Klingons or osmething. If you read the backstory behind the reaver and it's touched a bit on the Colossus, Protoss did not like creating war machines. The reaver was a modified mobile manufacturing facility. The sentry itself, is a battle drone or something and that's already weird. The Protoss also have very precise, high tech but clunky weapons. Look at goon fire, arbs, etc... they never had weird continuous lasers, that sentries shoot.
Zerg swarm though in the current metagame is not as swarmy, but sauron zerg style did exist in professional bw for many years. And even if professional metagame is different, the zerg was clearly designed to be swarmy.
My point is, the original designed each race with a central theme and feel, and then turned around to balance the game. This created 3 races that were completely different (or at least, zerg completely different from the other 2). SC2's design approach is backwards.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote:
On May 29 2012 03:23 Asp wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
I would say BW's strategy is deeper than SC2 right now, which is natural because the game is out longer. Unit design is debatable, most BW units are really good, while some are not (I still hate Overlord having detection and scout). Battle interesting to watch is purely subjective because BW and SC2 appeal on different parts.
So... everything's subjective and we should all just never compare anything...?
My reasons for why BW units are better: -BW units are better because it wasn't design by committee. Everything a unit in sc2 had an ounce of fun to watch/use (e.g. reaper + bunker harass) it was claimed "OP" and they nerfed it. -The units that carried over from BW to SC2 were mostly nerfed and lost their identity in the original game. Carriers (capital ship, game ender), zealots (hard to kill, relatively lower DPS), hydras (all purpose unit, you can tell especially from SC1/BW cinematic movies), etc etc... -You don't like how the overlord is a detector? A zerg ability that actually makes zerg a little different from the other races? Blasphemy, let's "enhance" the game by making it a morph ability. -A bunch of BS units that Blizzard just made up that doesn't even fit the theme of the races. Seriously guys, the roach and the sentry seem like 2 BS units that the designers just threw in there for balance. They don't fit at all into the look/feel of the races. Protoss is supposed to be overly high tech, clunky and expensive, kind of like the modern US army or something. Zerg is supposed to be swarmy, fast, lots of blood and death but beat you by quantity, starship troopers style. The roach, sentry don't exhibit any of these qualities.
My reasons for why BW has deeper strategy than SC2: I'm not sure you remember the early days of BW. People actually came up with lots of rush strategies and (V-Gundam rush, lots of 4 pools and BBs's, manner hatch with a big sunken line in front of opponent base, tank drop/boxing, etc...). Why? Because there were so many possibilities for each race. Players also executed many strategies that used mind games, even to this day. Even the game didn't mature and players didn't have the concept of macro, hard timings, etc... in BW, you could literally sit down, write on a piece of paper your plan for winning and then try to execute it. In SC2, it's just a big math problem. How do I get the most amount of Unit X at Y minutes while disregarding mind games and player reaction.
I think the medium of Brood War actually allowed players to beat their opponents in a personal way. By knowing Yellow always 12 hatch expands, Boxer beat him 3-0 by bunker rushing him in a final. More recently, by knowing Flash's scan patterns, Stardust or whatever beat him PvT. The medium of brood war is superior because the medium itself is not as restrictive. You can take a chance and not lost to a superior mathematical equation involving a roach timing.
I think SC2 is a very popular version of Warcraft 3. I play it and occasionally watch it but it's not a phenomenon I'm interested in following ahead of football, basketball, etc... like BW was.
That is why many things are subjective. If you said "my reasons...", then that means it's already subjective because you present your own personal opinions, which might not be true to other people.
And being subjective does not mean they are not comparable. It just means you need to be more careful when you want to compare things. For example, comparing which game has a deeper strategy is easier than which game is more fun to watch, because there's more evidence of how strategy evolves in the game and how long the game has been played. Saying one game is more fun to watch is purely based on the feeling and cannot be presented as objective.
Dude... I know my post is subjective, and I'm saying it should be when comparing two things as different as BW and SC2... and then I went ahead and gave my reasons. You come to the internet not expecting opinions or something?
Nice interview. It is always nice to hear from one of the insiders with a different perspective. His views regarding the whole "esports" (bw, sc2, lol) are expected from one of the old guards, although I can't really agree with them.
Maybe they haven't opened up to SC2 yet because they don't want BW to die. When I first saw/played SC2, I didn't like it either because it was so new and different. I immediately said BW was a better game, but now that I've watched most SC2 tourneys, it is really enjoyable. They're both different and enjoyable, I just think most pro BW players hate the fact that they have to switch to SC2. I don't blame them for hating it because it's their careers on the line, they've been doing it for years and now they're going to be out of a job if they don't succeed in a different game. Especially, if it's not fun as well.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
Which explains why the most casual e-sport by far (LoL) is huge in Korea?
On May 29 2012 01:05 rotinegg wrote: Q As Proleague is now switching over to SC2, history must be rewritten. How would you want SC2 PL to progress from this point on? A When compared to BW, the biggest difference is that SC2 just isn't fun to watch [Ouch]. For BW, you could know jack about the game but still enjoy it because there was a ubiquitous element of fun throughout the game. In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games. That's the reason why WC3 ultimately failed. Who would watch when the game itself isn't fun to watch. And where would the motivation for casuals to learn the game come from. Casual fans judge a game based on how fun it is to watch. In that sense BW's appeal is more direct.
I'm going to kind of ignore the SC2 vs BW flamewar going on and just say that SC2 is a significantly better game than WC3.
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote:
On May 29 2012 03:23 Asp wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
I would say BW's strategy is deeper than SC2 right now, which is natural because the game is out longer. Unit design is debatable, most BW units are really good, while some are not (I still hate Overlord having detection and scout). Battle interesting to watch is purely subjective because BW and SC2 appeal on different parts.
So... everything's subjective and we should all just never compare anything...?
My reasons for why BW units are better: -BW units are better because it wasn't design by committee. Everything a unit in sc2 had an ounce of fun to watch/use (e.g. reaper + bunker harass) it was claimed "OP" and they nerfed it. -The units that carried over from BW to SC2 were mostly nerfed and lost their identity in the original game. Carriers (capital ship, game ender), zealots (hard to kill, relatively lower DPS), hydras (all purpose unit, you can tell especially from SC1/BW cinematic movies), etc etc... -You don't like how the overlord is a detector? A zerg ability that actually makes zerg a little different from the other races? Blasphemy, let's "enhance" the game by making it a morph ability. -A bunch of BS units that Blizzard just made up that doesn't even fit the theme of the races. Seriously guys, the roach and the sentry seem like 2 BS units that the designers just threw in there for balance. They don't fit at all into the look/feel of the races. Protoss is supposed to be overly high tech, clunky and expensive, kind of like the modern US army or something. Zerg is supposed to be swarmy, fast, lots of blood and death but beat you by quantity, starship troopers style. The roach, sentry don't exhibit any of these qualities.
My reasons for why BW has deeper strategy than SC2: I'm not sure you remember the early days of BW. People actually came up with lots of rush strategies and (V-Gundam rush, lots of 4 pools and BBs's, manner hatch with a big sunken line in front of opponent base, tank drop/boxing, etc...). Why? Because there were so many possibilities for each race. Players also executed many strategies that used mind games, even to this day. Even the game didn't mature and players didn't have the concept of macro, hard timings, etc... in BW, you could literally sit down, write on a piece of paper your plan for winning and then try to execute it. In SC2, it's just a big math problem. How do I get the most amount of Unit X at Y minutes while disregarding mind games and player reaction.
I think the medium of Brood War actually allowed players to beat their opponents in a personal way. By knowing Yellow always 12 hatch expands, Boxer beat him 3-0 by bunker rushing him in a final. More recently, by knowing Flash's scan patterns, Stardust or whatever beat him PvT. The medium of brood war is superior because the medium itself is not as restrictive. You can take a chance and not lost to a superior mathematical equation involving a roach timing.
I think SC2 is a very popular version of Warcraft 3. I play it and occasionally watch it but it's not a phenomenon I'm interested in following ahead of football, basketball, etc... like BW was.
That is why many things are subjective. If you said "my reasons...", then that means it's already subjective because you present your own personal opinions, which might not be true to other people.
And being subjective does not mean they are not comparable. It just means you need to be more careful when you want to compare things. For example, comparing which game has a deeper strategy is easier than which game is more fun to watch, because there's more evidence of how strategy evolves in the game and how long the game has been played. Saying one game is more fun to watch is purely based on the feeling and cannot be presented as objective.
Dude... I know my post is subjective, and I'm saying it should be when comparing two things as different as BW and SC2... and then I went ahead and gave my reasons. You come to the internet not expecting opinions or something?
Not at all. I just wanted to address your first sentence and used your post as an example to show that many things are subjective, which some people tried to claim it as objective from both sides of argument.
From what I see, the problem right now is not people having opinions, it is people trying to present opinions as facts. And I think that's where the fight mostly start from.
On May 29 2012 04:55 FlukyS wrote: I would disagree with a lot of what he said in particular about what he said about how watchable SC2 is and the future of E-Sports but from his prospective id say that would be how he sees it. Its hard not to look at just under 100k watching an SC2 grand finals or 300k watching LoL and think that the glory days are over for E-Sports.
and what other SC2 events do you think are happening at the same time as this "grand finals" then for example.
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
Which explains why the most casual e-sport by far (LoL) is huge in Korea?
LoL is way too different from BW to compare them like that. Besides, it's free with a much better UI compared to SC2's model.
EDIT: Also I'm afraid you misunderstand me here, please direct me to where I said the game fails because it's casual or that SC2 is a casual game.
Very interesting interview. I like the idea of learning the history of eSports - there's a lot of depth to it that newer fans like myself just don't know about.
Of course I do want to touch a bit on his more controversial statements, too. First, I don't think it's necessary or productive to directly compare units or races in BW and SC2. They are different in ways, similar in others, and that's that. Each game needs to stand on it's own merits. Obviously BW has proven itself tenfold while SC2 has shown immense promise and potential.
While every game of SC2 (or BW for that matter) isn't going to be the best most amazing thing ever, there are many recent matches that show just how fantastic SC2 is as it's own game. MVP v. Squirtle GSL finals obviously comes to mind, as well as a few matches from last night's GSTL between NSH and Slayers (see the second match from that series for what may be the second best game of the year). Aside from the real standout matches like that, the average pro-level match is at such a high standard that I think most criticisms of SC2 are based on how the game was a year ago and not how it is today.
As far as which game is easier to follow, I'd say that they are both extremely similar generally speaking. In other words, any macro-economic RTS game is going to have similarities that a fan of one will immediately understand in another. Worker harass, drops, counter-attacks, microing injured units, rush vs. econ, hidden tech, scouting, army movement, etc. These things are not particular to any one RTS, so I don't see how it's much harder to understand than any other game.
On May 29 2012 04:55 FlukyS wrote: I would disagree with a lot of what he said in particular about what he said about how watchable SC2 is and the future of E-Sports but from his prospective id say that would be how he sees it. Its hard not to look at just under 100k watching an SC2 grand finals or 300k watching LoL and think that the glory days are over for E-Sports.
and what other SC2 events do you think are happening at the same time as this "grand finals" then for example.
On May 29 2012 03:53 N.geNuity wrote: to be fair, LoL seems to have exploded in korea and I'm not sure that is a casual friendly spectator game (I haven't played nor watched LoL, but know a little bit about dota/dota 2).
You probably don't just watch LoL/other mobas and understand much about the items/what is going on except that it's a 5v5 and some spells/team fights go on, that can be fun to see without knowing the details. But to get into the game you probably want to play with a friend who is already into it.
This is so true... I've watched LoL/DotA 2 many times and can't enjoy watching it at all... does that mean it's a bad game? No...
It's like the 1.6 vs. CSS debate... 1.6 kids desperately hold on to their game and call CSS shit when it really isn't... is 1.6 a bit better? That's debatable...
I think 1.6/BW users are just afraid to move to SC2/CSS in fear of possibly not being as good at the game because it has to be relearned.
I don't mean this comment as inflammatory in any way possible, it's my person belief. I made the switch from both 1.6 and BW some time ago, and I made the switch when both games were in beta and to be fair CSS/SC2 in beta was absolute dog shit... but I knew it was the future so I held on.
I still watch both games and enjoy them both equally...
On May 29 2012 04:55 FlukyS wrote: I would disagree with a lot of what he said in particular about what he said about how watchable SC2 is and the future of E-Sports but from his prospective id say that would be how he sees it. Its hard not to look at just under 100k watching an SC2 grand finals or 300k watching LoL and think that the glory days are over for E-Sports.
and what other SC2 events do you think are happening at the same time as this "grand finals" then for example.
I think JinAir got 6 Million viewers watching BW.
Was this ever confirmed? I heard everything between 4 and 10 million, but it was unclear if this was viewers or merely channel views
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
You do realize that they once made it pay to watch live in korea?
Nobody showed up, the pay to watch thing is either proof of lack of sponsors (or proper sponsoring from these sponsors) or just plain greed, the pay to watch is really frustrating for people who usually treats it like a "national television" which is allmost for free. Riot as an example is a company in which you can see PASSION for E-sports, they want that shit to work and you can see it; they are doing alot to support their viewers, they invest in tournaments untill the industry is running smoothly, such as the OGN LoL tourny (whether or not it's going to work on a long term scale is something which will be interesting to follow).
Also quit the BW depth vs SC2 depth discussion, it's impossible to discuss properly since the games were so different in the beginning stages of their respective metagames. Keep in mind how stale BW became after replays was introduced compared to before, SC2 allways had replays and huge exposure so ofcourse people are going to have less crazy plays as people copy the pros, saying that the unit designs are at fault is kinda stupid and doesnt make sense as plenty of innovation has happend and still happens in both games, if you dont notice it you're probally unaware of what to look for.
On May 29 2012 03:53 N.geNuity wrote: to be fair, LoL seems to have exploded in korea and I'm not sure that is a casual friendly spectator game (I haven't played nor watched LoL, but know a little bit about dota/dota 2).
You probably don't just watch LoL/other mobas and understand much about the items/what is going on except that it's a 5v5 and some spells/team fights go on, that can be fun to see without knowing the details. But to get into the game you probably want to play with a friend who is already into it.
This is so true... I've watched LoL/DotA 2 many times and can't enjoy watching it at all... does that mean it's a bad game? No...
It's like the 1.6 vs. CSS debate... 1.6 kids desperately hold on to their game and call CSS shit when it really isn't... is 1.6 a bit better? That's debatable...
I think 1.6/BW users are just afraid to move to SC2/CSS in fear of possibly not being as good at the game because it has to be relearned.
I don't mean this comment as inflammatory in any way possible, it's my person belief. I made the switch from both 1.6 and BW some time ago, and I made the switch when both games were in beta and to be fair CSS/SC2 in beta was absolute dog shit... but I knew it was the future so I held on.
I still watch both games and enjoy them both equally...
Kinda bad analogy, that's like saying that all professionals ignored sc2 for BW despite SC2 being out.
On May 29 2012 03:53 N.geNuity wrote: to be fair, LoL seems to have exploded in korea and I'm not sure that is a casual friendly spectator game (I haven't played nor watched LoL, but know a little bit about dota/dota 2).
You probably don't just watch LoL/other mobas and understand much about the items/what is going on except that it's a 5v5 and some spells/team fights go on, that can be fun to see without knowing the details. But to get into the game you probably want to play with a friend who is already into it.
This is so true... I've watched LoL/DotA 2 many times and can't enjoy watching it at all... does that mean it's a bad game? No...
It's like the 1.6 vs. CSS debate... 1.6 kids desperately hold on to their game and call CSS shit when it really isn't... is 1.6 a bit better? That's debatable...
I think 1.6/BW users are just afraid to move to SC2/CSS in fear of possibly not being as good at the game because it has to be relearned.
I don't mean this comment as inflammatory in any way possible, it's my person belief. I made the switch from both 1.6 and BW some time ago, and I made the switch when both games were in beta and to be fair CSS/SC2 in beta was absolute dog shit... but I knew it was the future so I held on.
I still watch both games and enjoy them both equally...
Cute because when i quit sc2 I had just gone through a 10 game winning streak while I had never managed to get a 30% winrate in bw
for all ppl saying sc2 is not fun to watch , we are just at first expansion , think what would be like sc2 in the next years interesting interview , and ofc is hard to see a sport that you think will last forever , dying .
if you played, taught and watched bw for like 12 years, every other game will not be fun to watch compared to bw because it was your first game and you want every game to be like bw.
but hows the situation if you never watched any bw? maybe sc2 will be for you what bw is for coach yeong and the other oldschool guys.
On May 29 2012 06:46 imperator-xy wrote: if you played, taught and watched bw for like 12 years, every other game will not be fun to watch compared to bw because it was your first game and you want every game to be like bw.
but hows the situation if you never watched any bw? maybe sc2 will be for you what bw is for coach yeong and the other oldschool guys.
I've watched SC2 first before BW. I mean I played BW when I was 9 but never found out about the pro scene or this site until the SC2 beta. I've come to appreciate BW just as much and perhaps even more than SC2. TBH, without day9, I probably would have left SC2. I didn't watch any HD or Husky vids since a year and I used to be hooked up to them back in the days of HDH.
I still thinks SC2 can be great, I'm cautiously optimistic about it. I really don't like how Kespa handled the transition though.
Funny to see TheMarine as a player back then, and now as a commentator on OGN.
There are many reasons why SC2 hasn't taken off in Korea as much as BW yet. Obviously, BW is a free game, you can just go to a PC bang and load it up. No need to register an account or anything if you just want to play some friendly LAN games. BW has also been broadcast and widely advertised on Korean TV (OGN, MBC, ...) which is a lot more accessible than having to sit at a computer with extra software needed to be installed (e.g. GOMplayer). There is no level playing field here to make a good comparison.
Bottom line is that there will always be so called conservatists who ache at the prospect of change. But you can't always let them get their way or you will never have real innovation and perpetuation. And while some BW pros are understandably anxious they might not be doing well in SC2 (their basis for earning a livelihood), they still understood that things must move forward to keep the business running. They gave it a chance and so should we. As, you know, things didn't look so swell for BW in the year 2000 either.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
None of these are objective, they are merely your opinion (ie. subjective). Oreo7 already explained this. Please stop the elitism, it's hurting my brain. BW is an AMAZING game, but stop letting shit cloud your mind.
On May 29 2012 06:55 Proseat wrote: Funny to see TheMarine as a player back then, and now as a commentator on OGN.
There are many reasons why SC2 hasn't taken off in Korea as much as BW yet. Obviously, BW is a free game, you can just go to a PC bang and load it up. No need to register an account or anything if you just want to play some friendly LAN games. BW has also been broadcast and widely advertised on Korean TV (OGN, MBC, ...) which is a lot more accessible than having to sit at a computer with extra software needed to be installed (e.g. GOMplayer). There is no level playing field here to make a good comparison.
Bottom line is that there will always be so called conservatists who ache at the prospect of change. But you can't always let them get their way or you will never have real innovation and perpetuation. And while some BW pros are understandably anxious they might not be doing well in SC2 (their basis for earning a livelihood), they still understood that things must move forward to keep the business running. They gave it a chance and so should we. As, you know, things didn't look so swell for BW in the year 2000 either.
Anyways, thanks for translating the interview!
This is an incredibly reasonable approach to the issue, and a breath of fresh air. I wholeheartedly agree, and while we'll all mourn what we cannot have we should try to see what is being given to us instead for what it really is and not judging it without actually giving it a chance.
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?"
Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different.
On May 29 2012 06:08 Iplaythings wrote:
Also quit the BW depth vs SC2 depth discussion, it's impossible to discuss properly since the games were so different in the beginning stages of their respective metagames.
This how every sc2 vs BW thread ends up. Sc2 fans make stupid claim, gets shot down this card gets played. Every single freakin time.
I've heard enough excuses on why sc2 is not popular in korea. Gom is the most used media player in SK. People just don't like the game. Get over it.
On May 29 2012 07:55 rasers wrote:
yeah gogogo wait for the 2 expansions ) before that the game is bad? or what? "wait wait wait wait wait wait" u guys say that since the beta.
It is all about the stories. "Our game was bad but it became good because of the community man."
Honestly, 3 years ago, I had the drive to practice my ass off and become a pro in SC2. The only thing holding me back to do so is because of the all the patches and most importantly, the upcoming expansions. I want to be able to use and recycle builds precised from years ago in my career. I can let many, MANY flaws slide by for SC2 but Blizzard for the love of god, don't implement any statistical updates/unit changes and all will be well.
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?"
Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different.
.... No, no it doesn't fall apart. Did you even read what I wrote? He, and others, say "SC2 just isn't fun to watch". I counter by pointing out that a lot of people watch SC2. So either those 100,000+ viewers are sadomachists or that statement is bullshit.
Also, have you seen me post in the Jaedong interview threads? No? That's because I didn't. I don't know what imaginary SC2-fan you're arguing against but I'm not that person.
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?"
Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different.
Also quit the BW depth vs SC2 depth discussion, it's impossible to discuss properly since the games were so different in the beginning stages of their respective metagames.
This how every sc2 vs BW thread ends up. Sc2 fans make stupid claim, gets shot down this card gets played. Every single freakin time.
I've heard enough excuses on why sc2 is not popular in korea. Gom is the most used media player in SK. People just don't like the game. Get over it.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague.
You realize that the timing slot that PL is in at the moment is very bad for the most live spectators, right? The biggest part of the people that would attend PL matches are either working or at school at that time. I'm pretty sure that the attendance will go back to normal when they fix that.
A poor excuse. For the first half of the last PL season, the weekday matches were held at 4PM KST, which was only an hour later than it is right now (3PM KST), and attendance was still extremely high (e.g. this match, which took place on a Wednesday afternoon in December). And that hour is completely negligible, since current PL games run well past 4PM anyway. Personally, I couldn't attend most of the weekday afternoon matches, because, as you might expect, I had class. But the two times I did ditch class in order to go watch, it was totally packed. Not only were there no open seats, even the standing area barely had room. Trust me, it's not the time slot. It's the content.
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?"
Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different.
On May 29 2012 06:08 Iplaythings wrote:
Also quit the BW depth vs SC2 depth discussion, it's impossible to discuss properly since the games were so different in the beginning stages of their respective metagames.
This how every sc2 vs BW thread ends up. Sc2 fans make stupid claim, gets shot down this card gets played. Every single freakin time.
I've heard enough excuses on why sc2 is not popular in korea. Gom is the most used media player in SK. People just don't like the game. Get over it.
On May 29 2012 07:55 rasers wrote:
yeah gogogo wait for the 2 expansions ) before that the game is bad? or what? "wait wait wait wait wait wait" u guys say that since the beta.
It is all about the stories. "Our game was bad but it became good because of the community man."
The people you quoted sound kinda retarded
ive never taken part in any bw-sc2-discussion fights. now i know why i didnt and why ill never ever do
IMO the one thing that made BW so amazing is the evolution it went trough. From Boxer to Flash there happened so much to the way BW is played. I remember when i first started regurarly watching pro BW (around 2007) one of the thoughts that really amazed me was: "wow, they are still playing BW and they have gotten that good". Another highlight as a casual BW player and regular BW spectator was when the Fantasy build got popular. The fact that after so many years and already established meta/standard game someone came up with such a fresh and exciting startegy (that worked) just reinforced my love for BW even more. Now im not saying SC2 couldnt have such a evolution and become as great as BW too. The problem i have with SC2 is that i get the feeling that Blizzard has a idea of how SC2 should be played and they are patching according to it. So pros dont have that possibility to discover something new because if they did it would get patched. One thing in this interview really hit the spot for me and that was when he said that BW was made by a foreign company (Blizzard ofc) but that the e-sport was created by us (South Koreans). Players like Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash and many more have made BW so awesome because they reached skill levels that werent imaginable before or because they found ways to play that werent predicted by Blizzard. Just imagine Blizzard would have controlled the way BW had to be played like they do with SC2, all the above mentioned players would be faceless. I followed SC2 with passion in its first year or so and i remember there was a patch where Blizz nerfed thors and defended their decision with the argument that they dont want thors to be a massable unit. That was a huge turn off to me because suddendly i got the feeling that Blizz made the game for themselves and not for the community and esports. This are reasons why i as a spectator cant really be passionate about SC2 for the pros and teams there is ofcourse also that element of uncertainty that comes with SC2 being released in episodes and being patched all the time. Would you want to make the very risky decision to give up school to become a pro in a game that will change totally in 2 years? Another statement was "SC2 is not fun to watch". While i agree with posters before me who said that this is a subjective statement, there is still a little truth in it. Blizzard somehow got the idea that for a game to become a esport it needs to get rid of all randomness. This may be true to a certain degree (especially from the perspective of a skilled pro player) but from a spectators point of view this is false. Just think about reavers, that moment when the scarab starts to fly towards a clump of workers. There is so much tension in this moment when you dont know if it will do damage or not and its a important reason why people are excited about BW. In SC2 such moments dont really exist. Its not a coincidence that football wich has a lot of randomness has much more viewers than chess. For outsiders (people who dont play the sport themselves) these random moments are what make them excited about the sport. When a underdog wins against Barca, during the penalty shootouts or when a ball touches the net in tennis and you dont know on wich side it lands these are the moments that let emotions come up and its what the casual viewers like the most.
Edit: Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate SC2 or find it totally boring (i still love to watch MLG for example). But i kinda feel its still in beta and will be until legacy of the void is out.
The part of where Coach Jung mentions 'SC2 just isn't fun to watch' I have to agree with him, but you really have to take in the point of view of the Korean community, they are the core spectators in events inside Korea, and if the good chunk of Koreans aren't buying into it, then it's damn hard to grow.
There is that magic in BW that's irreplaceable and cannot be replicated in SC2 and that magic is what the spectators feed on (that edge of your seat feeling). At the moment, it merely just feels like a placebo to me.
Yes, over 100k people watched SC2 at some event, sure it's fun to watch..... well... for them.
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
Your argument falls apart when you consider things like IPL4 previous GSl seasons and events like that. Hell most of you claim you're only after stories. Have you seen the most recent Jaedong interviews threads? You just can't stop about how foriegners are finally recognised. Seriously? Why the hell do you have to bring that up every freakin time. Do people from your crowd have some kind of a complex?"
Cue the millions of responses saying every individual is different.
.... No, no it doesn't fall apart. Did you even read what I wrote? He, and others, say "SC2 just isn't fun to watch". I counter by pointing out that a lot of people watch SC2. So either those 100,000+ viewers are sadomachists or that statement is bullshit.
Also, have you seen me post in the Jaedong interview threads? No? That's because I didn't. I don't know what imaginary SC2-fan you're arguing against but I'm not that person.
Do you even remember why GSL had to introduce that whole stupid invite a foreigner crap in the first place? It was because people were watching MLG, despite GSL being hier tier competition. There were millions of threads about it and everyone admitted that they were after stories. The story has not changed much since then :
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague.
You realize that the timing slot that PL is in at the moment is very bad for the most live spectators, right? The biggest part of the people that would attend PL matches are either working or at school at that time. I'm pretty sure that the attendance will go back to normal when they fix that.
A poor excuse. For the first half of the last PL season, the weekday matches were held at 4PM KST, which was only an hour later than it is right now (3PM KST), and attendance was still extremely high (e.g. this match, which took place on a Wednesday afternoon in December). And that hour is completely negligible, since current PL games run well past 4PM anyway. Personally, I couldn't attend most of the weekday afternoon matches, because, as you might expect, I had class. But the two times I did ditch class in order to go watch, it was totally packed. Not only were there no open seats, even the standing area barely had room. Trust me, it's not the time slot. It's the content.
Yeah, that is what I thought because despite poor timeslots last season, the place was packed. This season, I think less than 10 people were at a PL match or something like that?
Props to him for saying what is on his mind and no less. So many people are afraid to do that nowadays.
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
If yo look at the audiences while games are going on, you can see that there are a lot of empty seats when Proleague is on compared to last season and the Starleague.
You realize that the timing slot that PL is in at the moment is very bad for the most live spectators, right? The biggest part of the people that would attend PL matches are either working or at school at that time. I'm pretty sure that the attendance will go back to normal when they fix that.
A poor excuse. For the first half of the last PL season, the weekday matches were held at 4PM KST, which was only an hour later than it is right now (3PM KST), and attendance was still extremely high (e.g. this match, which took place on a Wednesday afternoon in December). And that hour is completely negligible, since current PL games run well past 4PM anyway. Personally, I couldn't attend most of the weekday afternoon matches, because, as you might expect, I had class. But the two times I did ditch class in order to go watch, it was totally packed. Not only were there no open seats, even the standing area barely had room. Trust me, it's not the time slot. It's the content.
Yeah, that is what I thought because despite poor timeslots last season, the place was packed. This season, I think less than 10 people were at a PL match or something like that?
Props to him for saying what is on his mind and no less. So many people are afraid to do that nowadays.
Pretty sure there were more people watching BW when it was the same timeslot during the Bo7 ace match period.
Now there's something I would like to add- If someone of a higher figure said something about SC2 being viewer-unfriendly in his country, maybe you should just respect his point of view because he is there in person to judge, not someone who just sits in front of the computer pulling out statistics to rebut.
Interesting interview, but I really do disagree with him on so many points.
I disagree with his opinions on SC2 (from a base standpoint, I will only ever listen to the 'easier/more fun for casuals to watch' argument when it actually comes from a casual spectator and not a zealous supporter of one or the other game). Even beyond SC2 though, he seems to be a person who has become hopelessly tied to the nostalgic idea of 'the golden age', unable to enjoy the present because of his fond memories of the past.
I actually never really liked him too much when he was still coaching either though. He certainly had a reputation and you can pretty easily still see it bleed through in his martyr-like response to the memes and insistence that modern coaches don't understand the idea of leadership. Even his proposal to nal_ra, though generous, was such a strange proposition that thankfully nalra did not take. It shows an overly strong focus on the concept of star and ace players and a disregard for rookies (unless they themselves happened to beat a star). He even proudly shows off his disinterest from potential rookie terrans simply because of their race (imagine how flash might have come up in such conditions).
Still, he was an important figure and even though his win streak accomplishment was largely fueled by that purchased all star line-up, it's definitely impressive. Plenty of teams have had nigh unbeatable lineups since and have not been able to match it. I feel like there is a reason it was a streak and not a championship though, and that might be the most telling part about him as a coach.
^I think during the Old Boy show, it was said that the old KTF never won a championship because there were so many big stars thus big egos on the team so people didn't want to work with each other. Nowadays, KT have a reputation for being an extremely close knit team and it was said time and time again in interviews by their players as one of the main reasons why they think they're doing well.
This guy certainly have a superiority complex of some kind, not sure if I'd want him as a coach if I was a player. He kind of comes off as one of those very authoritarian, conservative and xenophobic type.
9) KTF coach incident. This was when KTF was hosting the premere league thing and had like 8 of the 16 players from KTF. Each team's head coach was supposed to show up for a meeting but Daniel Lee of Hexatron couldn't make it and he sent Jinnam and Jinsoo instead. KTF coach got pissed because he thought he was being ignored and said to the brothers "I will make sure you will never again play in the premere league if you come out this way" Jinnam Jinsu got pissed and wrote about it on their homepage..and it was a big controversy because at that time there was talk about how the KTF coach manipulated the players who got into the league.
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
9) KTF coach incident. This was when KTF was hosting the premere league thing and had like 8 of the 16 players from KTF. Each team's head coach was supposed to show up for a meeting but Daniel Lee of Hexatron couldn't make it and he sent Jinnam and Jinsoo instead. KTF coach got pissed because he thought he was being ignored and said to the brothers "I will make sure you will never again play in the premere league if you come out this way" Jinnam Jinsu got pissed and wrote about it on their homepage..and it was a big controversy because at that time there was talk about how the KTF coach manipulated the players who got into the league.
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
The point 10 is kinda disturbing to be honest. Although I understand it's something that sometimes work in Asian culture, it's still disturbing that a coach did that in a professional level.
BTW, where does the quote comes from, GTR? If it's possible, could you like me to the full article, please?
On May 29 2012 01:42 Veldril wrote: Great article. The only part I disagree is "In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games" because there's so many new fans in the western scene that don't play the game but still watch professional matches. If foreign scene can achieve that, it should be entirely possible for Korean scene to emulate that.
He was harsh, but you have to consider the Koreans' position. I hate to sound elitist, but SC2 didn't took off in Korea because they simply know better. Foreigners mostly don't know about BW or brushed it off because it's old and have SD graphics.
The reason SC2 didn't take off in Korea is because of many reasons but it does not have anything to do what I disagree with him.
When SC2 came out, general population of gamers think of it as an "outdated" game by the RTS standard at that time (resource gathering, for example, is considered outdated by modern RTS). But it still took off in the foreign scene despite many people do not play it because there are many people who introduced the games to the mass, such as Day[9] and Husky. Good casters that can explain the basic of the game as the match goes on and adding excitement to the casting can make a game enjoyable to watch for someone who doesn't play the game.
On May 29 2012 03:29 Oreo7 wrote:
On May 29 2012 03:23 Asp wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:47 gillon wrote:
On May 29 2012 02:03 Black[CAT] wrote: True that. At least he said it out directly and not beat about the bush. SC2 isnt fun to watch. I dont get the feeling of excitement from it despite watching quite a while.
You say it as if it's objectively true?
There are objective components. BW has objectively deeper strategy. SC2's units are objectively inferior in design. The unit AI objectively makes battles less interesting to watch. You can say you enjoy these inferior qualities about SC2, anyone can enjoy anything, but there is some objectivity behind what the coach said.
Nope, those are all subjective. If you can't stick a ruler against it, it's probably subjective. In other words, if the viewer is a factor in the measurement, then it's subjective.
"BW has objective deeper strategy" theirs no ruler for strategy. What you think is deep isn't deep by everyone's definition. Subjective.
"objectively inferior in design" your measure of how good unit design is isn't the same as everyone else's. Subjective.
"makes battles less interesting to watch" what makes battles interesting differs from person to person. Subjective.
You can bitch about sc2 all you want, but don't be a moron about it.
I would say BW's strategy is deeper than SC2 right now, which is natural because the game is out longer. Unit design is debatable, most BW units are really good, while some are not (I still hate Overlord having detection and scout). Battle interesting to watch is purely subjective because BW and SC2 appeal on different parts.
So... everything's subjective and we should all just never compare anything...?
My reasons for why BW units are better: -BW units are better because it wasn't design by committee. Everything a unit in sc2 had an ounce of fun to watch/use (e.g. reaper + bunker harass) it was claimed "OP" and they nerfed it. -The units that carried over from BW to SC2 were mostly nerfed and lost their identity in the original game. Carriers (capital ship, game ender), zealots (hard to kill, relatively lower DPS), hydras (all purpose unit, you can tell especially from SC1/BW cinematic movies), etc etc... -You don't like how the overlord is a detector? A zerg ability that actually makes zerg a little different from the other races? Blasphemy, let's "enhance" the game by making it a morph ability. -A bunch of BS units that Blizzard just made up that doesn't even fit the theme of the races. Seriously guys, the roach and the sentry seem like 2 BS units that the designers just threw in there for balance. They don't fit at all into the look/feel of the races. Protoss is supposed to be overly high tech, clunky and expensive, kind of like the modern US army or something. Zerg is supposed to be swarmy, fast, lots of blood and death but beat you by quantity, starship troopers style. The roach, sentry don't exhibit any of these qualities.
My reasons for why BW has deeper strategy than SC2: I'm not sure you remember the early days of BW. People actually came up with lots of rush strategies and (V-Gundam rush, lots of 4 pools and BBs's, manner hatch with a big sunken line in front of opponent base, tank drop/boxing, etc...). Why? Because there were so many possibilities for each race. Players also executed many strategies that used mind games, even to this day. Even the game didn't mature and players didn't have the concept of macro, hard timings, etc... in BW, you could literally sit down, write on a piece of paper your plan for winning and then try to execute it. In SC2, it's just a big math problem. How do I get the most amount of Unit X at Y minutes while disregarding mind games and player reaction.
I think the medium of Brood War actually allowed players to beat their opponents in a personal way. By knowing Yellow always 12 hatch expands, Boxer beat him 3-0 by bunker rushing him in a final. More recently, by knowing Flash's scan patterns, Stardust or whatever beat him PvT. The medium of brood war is superior because the medium itself is not as restrictive. You can take a chance and not lost to a superior mathematical equation involving a roach timing.
I think SC2 is a very popular version of Warcraft 3. I play it and occasionally watch it but it's not a phenomenon I'm interested in following ahead of football, basketball, etc... like BW was.
You will be surprised by how many early game rushs sc2 has. It may has even more than BW.
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
On May 29 2012 10:05 altered wrote: IMO the one thing that made BW so amazing is the evolution it went trough. From Boxer to Flash there happened so much to the way BW is played. I remember when i first started regurarly watching pro BW (around 2007) one of the thoughts that really amazed me was: "wow, they are still playing BW and they have gotten that good". Another highlight as a casual BW player and regular BW spectator was when the Fantasy build got popular. The fact that after so many years and already established meta/standard game someone came up with such a fresh and exciting startegy (that worked) just reinforced my love for BW even more. Now im not saying SC2 couldnt have such a evolution and become as great as BW too. The problem i have with SC2 is that i get the feeling that Blizzard has a idea of how SC2 should be played and they are patching according to it. So pros dont have that possibility to discover something new because if they did it would get patched. One thing in this interview really hit the spot for me and that was when he said that BW was made by a foreign company (Blizzard ofc) but that the e-sport was created by us (South Koreans). Players like Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash and many more have made BW so awesome because they reached skill levels that werent imaginable before or because they found ways to play that werent predicted by Blizzard. Just imagine Blizzard would have controlled the way BW had to be played like they do with SC2, all the above mentioned players would be faceless. I followed SC2 with passion in its first year or so and i remember there was a patch where Blizz nerfed thors and defended their decision with the argument that they dont want thors to be a massable unit. That was a huge turn off to me because suddendly i got the feeling that Blizz made the game for themselves and not for the community and esports. This are reasons why i as a spectator cant really be passionate about SC2 for the pros and teams there is ofcourse also that element of uncertainty that comes with SC2 being released in episodes and being patched all the time. Would you want to make the very risky decision to give up school to become a pro in a game that will change totally in 2 years? Another statement was "SC2 is not fun to watch". While i agree with posters before me who said that this is a subjective statement, there is still a little truth in it. Blizzard somehow got the idea that for a game to become a esport it needs to get rid of all randomness. This may be true to a certain degree (especially from the perspective of a skilled pro player) but from a spectators point of view this is false. Just think about reavers, that moment when the scarab starts to fly towards a clump of workers. There is so much tension in this moment when you dont know if it will do damage or not and its a important reason why people are excited about BW. In SC2 such moments dont really exist. Its not a coincidence that football wich has a lot of randomness has much more viewers than chess. For outsiders (people who dont play the sport themselves) these random moments are what make them excited about the sport. When a underdog wins against Barca, during the penalty shootouts or when a ball touches the net in tennis and you dont know on wich side it lands these are the moments that let emotions come up and its what the casual viewers like the most.
Edit: Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate SC2 or find it totally boring (i still love to watch MLG for example). But i kinda feel its still in beta and will be until legacy of the void is out.
You speak the truth I still have faith in humanity luckily all fans of sc2 do not just blindly follow it just for the sake that there is potential in the game of being "e-sport material" . See the problem is broodwar is only release in one package and balance was quicker to address and blizzard back than didn't mess up with user ability to create new strategy they were arbitrary in some areas for example dumbing down reaver however their patches were welcome .
Now sc2 fans and pro players have to wait for hots to learn everything again and LoTV which are two games that aren't the same when different units and changes are made to the game .
On May 29 2012 14:06 empty.bottle wrote: I hope they bring back the imba units and retarded pathing.
Sc2 elitist will disagree with you on that changes .
Yeah those Sc2 elitist are jerks... they like their fancy AI and balanced units. We casuals need imba interesting units to have fun.
EDIT: The post from below has opened my eyes. I regret my previous statement. My new statement will be: I hope they bring back the imba interesting units and retarded wild pathing.
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
On May 29 2012 10:05 altered wrote: IMO the one thing that made BW so amazing is the evolution it went trough. From Boxer to Flash there happened so much to the way BW is played. I remember when i first started regurarly watching pro BW (around 2007) one of the thoughts that really amazed me was: "wow, they are still playing BW and they have gotten that good". Another highlight as a casual BW player and regular BW spectator was when the Fantasy build got popular. The fact that after so many years and already established meta/standard game someone came up with such a fresh and exciting startegy (that worked) just reinforced my love for BW even more. Now im not saying SC2 couldnt have such a evolution and become as great as BW too. The problem i have with SC2 is that i get the feeling that Blizzard has a idea of how SC2 should be played and they are patching according to it. So pros dont have that possibility to discover something new because if they did it would get patched. One thing in this interview really hit the spot for me and that was when he said that BW was made by a foreign company (Blizzard ofc) but that the e-sport was created by us (South Koreans). Players like Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash and many more have made BW so awesome because they reached skill levels that werent imaginable before or because they found ways to play that werent predicted by Blizzard. Just imagine Blizzard would have controlled the way BW had to be played like they do with SC2, all the above mentioned players would be faceless. I followed SC2 with passion in its first year or so and i remember there was a patch where Blizz nerfed thors and defended their decision with the argument that they dont want thors to be a massable unit. That was a huge turn off to me because suddendly i got the feeling that Blizz made the game for themselves and not for the community and esports. This are reasons why i as a spectator cant really be passionate about SC2 for the pros and teams there is ofcourse also that element of uncertainty that comes with SC2 being released in episodes and being patched all the time. Would you want to make the very risky decision to give up school to become a pro in a game that will change totally in 2 years? Another statement was "SC2 is not fun to watch". While i agree with posters before me who said that this is a subjective statement, there is still a little truth in it. Blizzard somehow got the idea that for a game to become a esport it needs to get rid of all randomness. This may be true to a certain degree (especially from the perspective of a skilled pro player) but from a spectators point of view this is false. Just think about reavers, that moment when the scarab starts to fly towards a clump of workers. There is so much tension in this moment when you dont know if it will do damage or not and its a important reason why people are excited about BW. In SC2 such moments dont really exist. Its not a coincidence that football wich has a lot of randomness has much more viewers than chess. For outsiders (people who dont play the sport themselves) these random moments are what make them excited about the sport. When a underdog wins against Barca, during the penalty shootouts or when a ball touches the net in tennis and you dont know on wich side it lands these are the moments that let emotions come up and its what the casual viewers like the most.
Edit: Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate SC2 or find it totally boring (i still love to watch MLG for example). But i kinda feel its still in beta and will be until legacy of the void is out.
You speak the truth I still have faith in humanity luckily all fans of sc2 do not just blindly follow it just for the sake that there is potential in the game of being "e-sport material" . See the problem is broodwar is only release in one package and balance was quicker to address and blizzard back than didn't mess up with user ability to create new strategy they were arbitrary in some areas for example dumbing down reaver however their patches were welcome .
Now sc2 fans and pro players have to wait for hots to learn everything again and LoTV which are two games that aren't the same when different units and changes are made to the game .
There are also many people who enjoy SC2 as of it's current state, or enjoy seeing how strategy being develop according to how balance patch are made too. So it's kinda depends on each person's opinion.
On May 29 2012 10:05 altered wrote: IMO the one thing that made BW so amazing is the evolution it went trough. From Boxer to Flash there happened so much to the way BW is played. I remember when i first started regurarly watching pro BW (around 2007) one of the thoughts that really amazed me was: "wow, they are still playing BW and they have gotten that good". Another highlight as a casual BW player and regular BW spectator was when the Fantasy build got popular. The fact that after so many years and already established meta/standard game someone came up with such a fresh and exciting startegy (that worked) just reinforced my love for BW even more. Now im not saying SC2 couldnt have such a evolution and become as great as BW too. The problem i have with SC2 is that i get the feeling that Blizzard has a idea of how SC2 should be played and they are patching according to it. So pros dont have that possibility to discover something new because if they did it would get patched. One thing in this interview really hit the spot for me and that was when he said that BW was made by a foreign company (Blizzard ofc) but that the e-sport was created by us (South Koreans). Players like Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash and many more have made BW so awesome because they reached skill levels that werent imaginable before or because they found ways to play that werent predicted by Blizzard. Just imagine Blizzard would have controlled the way BW had to be played like they do with SC2, all the above mentioned players would be faceless. I followed SC2 with passion in its first year or so and i remember there was a patch where Blizz nerfed thors and defended their decision with the argument that they dont want thors to be a massable unit. That was a huge turn off to me because suddendly i got the feeling that Blizz made the game for themselves and not for the community and esports. This are reasons why i as a spectator cant really be passionate about SC2 for the pros and teams there is ofcourse also that element of uncertainty that comes with SC2 being released in episodes and being patched all the time. Would you want to make the very risky decision to give up school to become a pro in a game that will change totally in 2 years? Another statement was "SC2 is not fun to watch". While i agree with posters before me who said that this is a subjective statement, there is still a little truth in it. Blizzard somehow got the idea that for a game to become a esport it needs to get rid of all randomness. This may be true to a certain degree (especially from the perspective of a skilled pro player) but from a spectators point of view this is false. Just think about reavers, that moment when the scarab starts to fly towards a clump of workers. There is so much tension in this moment when you dont know if it will do damage or not and its a important reason why people are excited about BW. In SC2 such moments dont really exist. Its not a coincidence that football wich has a lot of randomness has much more viewers than chess. For outsiders (people who dont play the sport themselves) these random moments are what make them excited about the sport. When a underdog wins against Barca, during the penalty shootouts or when a ball touches the net in tennis and you dont know on wich side it lands these are the moments that let emotions come up and its what the casual viewers like the most.
Edit: Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate SC2 or find it totally boring (i still love to watch MLG for example). But i kinda feel its still in beta and will be until legacy of the void is out.
You speak the truth I still have faith in humanity luckily all fans of sc2 do not just blindly follow it just for the sake that there is potential in the game of being "e-sport material" . See the problem is broodwar is only release in one package and balance was quicker to address and blizzard back than didn't mess up with user ability to create new strategy they were arbitrary in some areas for example dumbing down reaver however their patches were welcome .
Now sc2 fans and pro players have to wait for hots to learn everything again and LoTV which are two games that aren't the same when different units and changes are made to the game .
There are also many people who enjoy SC2 as of it's current state, or enjoy seeing how strategy being develop according to how balance patch are made too. So it's kinda depends on each person's opinion.
Well you only have one game to enjoy which is sc2 so you have to deal with it or play other games .Luckily for me I can still play bw instead of forcing my self to play sc2 .
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
Am I the crazy one here?
Make a campaign than and save the poor people who are getting abused physically because feeling great injustice on the internet isn't going to change anything.
9) KTF coach incident. This was when KTF was hosting the premere league thing and had like 8 of the 16 players from KTF. Each team's head coach was supposed to show up for a meeting but Daniel Lee of Hexatron couldn't make it and he sent Jinnam and Jinsoo instead. KTF coach got pissed because he thought he was being ignored and said to the brothers "I will make sure you will never again play in the premere league if you come out this way" Jinnam Jinsu got pissed and wrote about it on their homepage..and it was a big controversy because at that time there was talk about how the KTF coach manipulated the players who got into the league.
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
This is exactly what I remembered when I mentioned never liking him as a coach in the past, but I wasn't 100% sure I remembered the facts right so I didn't bring it up. As big as his name was and as much of a legacy as he has, in my opinion he was never really that great a coach, and he certainly didn't have the kind of values I would aspire towards. This interview gives some very interesting insight on his viewpoints, but I really hope people aren't looking to him as their champion on any of the issues he brought up.
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
Am I the crazy one here?
You've not heard of corporal punishment lol? Rolling pins on your hands, kneeling in bird seeds, all manner of sticks and pink ass'.
On May 29 2012 10:05 altered wrote: IMO the one thing that made BW so amazing is the evolution it went trough. From Boxer to Flash there happened so much to the way BW is played. I remember when i first started regurarly watching pro BW (around 2007) one of the thoughts that really amazed me was: "wow, they are still playing BW and they have gotten that good". Another highlight as a casual BW player and regular BW spectator was when the Fantasy build got popular. The fact that after so many years and already established meta/standard game someone came up with such a fresh and exciting startegy (that worked) just reinforced my love for BW even more. Now im not saying SC2 couldnt have such a evolution and become as great as BW too. The problem i have with SC2 is that i get the feeling that Blizzard has a idea of how SC2 should be played and they are patching according to it. So pros dont have that possibility to discover something new because if they did it would get patched. One thing in this interview really hit the spot for me and that was when he said that BW was made by a foreign company (Blizzard ofc) but that the e-sport was created by us (South Koreans). Players like Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash and many more have made BW so awesome because they reached skill levels that werent imaginable before or because they found ways to play that werent predicted by Blizzard. Just imagine Blizzard would have controlled the way BW had to be played like they do with SC2, all the above mentioned players would be faceless. I followed SC2 with passion in its first year or so and i remember there was a patch where Blizz nerfed thors and defended their decision with the argument that they dont want thors to be a massable unit. That was a huge turn off to me because suddendly i got the feeling that Blizz made the game for themselves and not for the community and esports. This are reasons why i as a spectator cant really be passionate about SC2 for the pros and teams there is ofcourse also that element of uncertainty that comes with SC2 being released in episodes and being patched all the time. Would you want to make the very risky decision to give up school to become a pro in a game that will change totally in 2 years? Another statement was "SC2 is not fun to watch". While i agree with posters before me who said that this is a subjective statement, there is still a little truth in it. Blizzard somehow got the idea that for a game to become a esport it needs to get rid of all randomness. This may be true to a certain degree (especially from the perspective of a skilled pro player) but from a spectators point of view this is false. Just think about reavers, that moment when the scarab starts to fly towards a clump of workers. There is so much tension in this moment when you dont know if it will do damage or not and its a important reason why people are excited about BW. In SC2 such moments dont really exist. Its not a coincidence that football wich has a lot of randomness has much more viewers than chess. For outsiders (people who dont play the sport themselves) these random moments are what make them excited about the sport. When a underdog wins against Barca, during the penalty shootouts or when a ball touches the net in tennis and you dont know on wich side it lands these are the moments that let emotions come up and its what the casual viewers like the most.
Edit: Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate SC2 or find it totally boring (i still love to watch MLG for example). But i kinda feel its still in beta and will be until legacy of the void is out.
You speak the truth I still have faith in humanity luckily all fans of sc2 do not just blindly follow it just for the sake that there is potential in the game of being "e-sport material" . See the problem is broodwar is only release in one package and balance was quicker to address and blizzard back than didn't mess up with user ability to create new strategy they were arbitrary in some areas for example dumbing down reaver however their patches were welcome .
Now sc2 fans and pro players have to wait for hots to learn everything again and LoTV which are two games that aren't the same when different units and changes are made to the game .
There are also many people who enjoy SC2 as of it's current state, or enjoy seeing how strategy being develop according to how balance patch are made too. So it's kinda depends on each person's opinion.
Well you only have one game to enjoy which is sc2 so you have to deal with it or play other games .Luckily for me I can still play bw instead of forcing my self to play sc2 .
I also own BW too and play it from time to time. But I prefer to play SC2 more because I like faster combat pace. Although I have to admit that I prefer to watch SC more than play it. I don't have enough time to practice and playing on the ladder is really more stressful than relaxing
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
Am I the crazy one here?
Make a campaign than and save the poor people who are getting abused physically because feeling great injustice on the internet isn't going to change anything.
Also, it's in the past so there's no point trying to beating a dead horse right now.
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
Am I the crazy one here?
I'm not so sure about baseball bats but the general idea is that your parents believe that in some situations behaving a certain way is optimal so they discipline you hoping you would realise that or intimidate you into doing things a certain way until you know better. If you were some random kid they wouldn't care.
It seems to have worked in many cases(much more widespread than what westerners believe). I've never actually heard anyone resent thier parents as a result of this and act in a rebellious like american kids on TV (just an observation). Most just... knew better when they got older.
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
Am I the crazy one here?
I'm not so sure about baseball bats but the general idea is that your parents believe that in some situations behaving a certain way is optimal so they discipline you hoping you would realise that or intimidate you into doing things a certain way until you know better. If you were some random kid they wouldn't care.
It seems to have worked in many cases(much more widespread than what westerners believe). I've never actually heard anyone resent thier parents as a result of this and act in a rebellious like american kids on TV (just an observation). Most just... knew better when they got older.
Don't pretend corporal punishment never existed in any country, it's as relevant as how strict the environment is, in army training regardless of age range / area it's a virtual necessity. S.Korea and other asian countries have gotten way better at it in recent years. And the cause is very strict and competitive social life, not cultural bias FOR corporal punishment.
Thank you for translation. I started wtaching Proleague way after he retired, which makes me a sad panda. Wish I could see the amazing Bat Coach in action! A little bat persuasion is not a bad thing, unless its a full scale combo agression.
He sure spoke his mind on a lot of things and I respect him for that, Definitely agree with the grassroots argument and the watchabilty of sctoo. Also, this:
On May 29 2012 18:36 shadymmj wrote: this guy knows what he is talking about so it should be spotlighted
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
Am I the crazy one here?
I'm not so sure about baseball bats but the general idea is that your parents believe that in some situations behaving a certain way is optimal so they discipline you hoping you would realise that or intimidate you into doing things a certain way until you know better. If you were some random kid they wouldn't care.
It seems to have worked in many cases(much more widespread than what westerners believe). I've never actually heard anyone resent thier parents as a result of this and act in a rebellious like american kids on TV (just an observation). Most just... knew better when they got older.
Don't pretend corporal punishment never existed in any country, it's as relevant as how strict the environment is, in army training regardless of age range / area it's a virtual necessity. S.Korea and other asian countries have gotten way better at it in recent years. And the cause is very strict and competitive social life, not cultural bias FOR corporal punishment.
Where the hell did I say any of that. I never said it didn't happen elsewhere but in the modern day environment it happens a hell of a lot more often and in more places than a westerner thinks. I did not compare it to anything else. When I said they "knew better" I meant they understood why they got whacked as a kid and didn't hold a grudge against thier parents like every other freakin asian in the history of mankind. Ribbon asked a question and I told him the reasoning behind why it is a tradition.... or the so often claimed reason anyway.
The bit about how he handled Nal_Ra seeemed really strange to me. Perhaps its the translation. Perhaps by 'reputation' the word confidence should be used...as basing his treatment of a player on what other players think of him is odd.
On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote: 10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident. KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize
That's....actually kind of fucked up.
In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy.
Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value.
Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck?
this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea .
Am I the crazy one here?
I'm not so sure about baseball bats but the general idea is that your parents believe that in some situations behaving a certain way is optimal so they discipline you hoping you would realise that or intimidate you into doing things a certain way until you know better. If you were some random kid they wouldn't care.
It seems to have worked in many cases(much more widespread than what westerners believe). I've never actually heard anyone resent thier parents as a result of this and act in a rebellious like american kids on TV (just an observation). Most just... knew better when they got older.
Don't pretend corporal punishment never existed in any country, it's as relevant as how strict the environment is, in army training regardless of age range / area it's a virtual necessity. S.Korea and other asian countries have gotten way better at it in recent years. And the cause is very strict and competitive social life, not cultural bias FOR corporal punishment.
Where the hell did I say any of that. I never said it didn't happen elsewhere but in the modern day environment it happens a hell of a lot more often and in more places than a westerner thinks. I did not compare it to anything else. When I said they "knew better" I meant they understood why they got whacked as a kid and didn't hold a grudge against thier parents like every other freakin asian in the history of mankind. Ribbon asked a question and I told him the reasoning behind why it is a tradition.... or the so often claimed reason anyway.
meant to quote you along with the person before you. wasn't rebutting you
What an old school baller, I agree with him that SC2 isn't as great to watch but not for the same reasons. He criticizes SC2 for not being casual friendly to watch because it's harder to understand? On the contrary SC2 is too easy to watch with too many types of non-micro intensive army balls attacking into each other.
There is no mutalisk micro, no shuttle reaver micro, etc for example. Sc2's units are just terribly boring and games are getting bland to watch especially due to the numerous amount of tournaments/streams out there. Compare this to BW where we know it takes tremendous skill already to overcome the crappy UI to micro and macro well, in addition to seeing great units being used intelligently that don't have their equivalent in SC2(spider mines is the biggest missing piece in my opinion, the lack of viable mech play), BW is actually more complex while SC2 is more straightforward to watch.
omg this guy, i nearly forgot about him lol. god i miss the old KT days even though they never won a single grand finals (ARGHH SKT!! lol)
sucks that his sons friends make fun of him for being the son of baseball bat jung lol, wtf. i would be like my dad achieved longest proleague win streak with KTF, TAKE THAT NOOBS.
On May 29 2012 22:50 bubblegumbo wrote: What an old school baller, I agree with him that SC2 isn't as great to watch but not for the same reasons. He criticizes SC2 for not being casual friendly to watch because it's harder to understand? On the contrary SC2 is too easy to watch with too many types of non-micro intensive army balls attacking into each other.
There is no mutalisk micro, no shuttle reaver micro, etc for example. Sc2's units are just terribly boring and games are getting bland to watch especially due to the numerous amount of tournaments/streams out there. Compare this to BW where we know it takes tremendous skill already to overcome the crappy UI to micro and macro well, in addition to seeing great units being used intelligently that don't have their equivalent in SC2(spider mines is the biggest missing piece in my opinion, the lack of viable mech play), BW is actually more complex while SC2 is more straightforward to watch.
Disagree. When i first watched proBW in 2009 i had no idea what dragoons reavers and ultralisks were but it didn't matter because it is clear what is going on. Later on when i slowly learn't a bit more i began to appreciate other aspects like mechanics. This isn't the case with SC2. I know starcraft and SC2 makes me go "what the shit?" too often. Your points about UI and such make SC2 easier to play as opposed to easier to spectate. The viewer demographic for BW is incredibly wide 3y olds - 70y olds. For SC2? 14y olds to <30's gamer nerds.
On May 29 2012 23:32 stevewch wrote: what's the problem if people want to stay with the better one? a change is always welcome, but it has to be a change to better, not a change to worse.
the problem is things like this- "Even if I returned, I know the kingdom of E-sports from the glory days will never return." and "When compared to BW, the biggest difference is that SC2 just isn't fun to watch" he has no proof to say things like that, just assuming that because he doesn't like watching sc2 that it will never become as popular as brood war.
On May 29 2012 10:05 altered wrote: IMO the one thing that made BW so amazing is the evolution it went trough. From Boxer to Flash there happened so much to the way BW is played. I remember when i first started regurarly watching pro BW (around 2007) one of the thoughts that really amazed me was: "wow, they are still playing BW and they have gotten that good". Another highlight as a casual BW player and regular BW spectator was when the Fantasy build got popular. The fact that after so many years and already established meta/standard game someone came up with such a fresh and exciting startegy (that worked) just reinforced my love for BW even more. Now im not saying SC2 couldnt have such a evolution and become as great as BW too. The problem i have with SC2 is that i get the feeling that Blizzard has a idea of how SC2 should be played and they are patching according to it. So pros dont have that possibility to discover something new because if they did it would get patched. One thing in this interview really hit the spot for me and that was when he said that BW was made by a foreign company (Blizzard ofc) but that the e-sport was created by us (South Koreans). Players like Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash and many more have made BW so awesome because they reached skill levels that werent imaginable before or because they found ways to play that werent predicted by Blizzard. Just imagine Blizzard would have controlled the way BW had to be played like they do with SC2, all the above mentioned players would be faceless. I followed SC2 with passion in its first year or so and i remember there was a patch where Blizz nerfed thors and defended their decision with the argument that they dont want thors to be a massable unit. That was a huge turn off to me because suddendly i got the feeling that Blizz made the game for themselves and not for the community and esports. This are reasons why i as a spectator cant really be passionate about SC2 for the pros and teams there is ofcourse also that element of uncertainty that comes with SC2 being released in episodes and being patched all the time. Would you want to make the very risky decision to give up school to become a pro in a game that will change totally in 2 years? Another statement was "SC2 is not fun to watch". While i agree with posters before me who said that this is a subjective statement, there is still a little truth in it. Blizzard somehow got the idea that for a game to become a esport it needs to get rid of all randomness. This may be true to a certain degree (especially from the perspective of a skilled pro player) but from a spectators point of view this is false. Just think about reavers, that moment when the scarab starts to fly towards a clump of workers. There is so much tension in this moment when you dont know if it will do damage or not and its a important reason why people are excited about BW. In SC2 such moments dont really exist. Its not a coincidence that football wich has a lot of randomness has much more viewers than chess. For outsiders (people who dont play the sport themselves) these random moments are what make them excited about the sport. When a underdog wins against Barca, during the penalty shootouts or when a ball touches the net in tennis and you dont know on wich side it lands these are the moments that let emotions come up and its what the casual viewers like the most.
Edit: Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate SC2 or find it totally boring (i still love to watch MLG for example). But i kinda feel its still in beta and will be until legacy of the void is out.
I think coach is uninformed about SC2 to some extent. It's easier to play and easier on the eyes when playing. But as a spectator watching a SD stream it's hard to follow what's going on. SC2 has potential but it's not working right now. No matter how much Jaedong of Flash you throw at it, unless the game becomes good I'd much rather have the 2008/09 season of SPL.
On May 29 2012 23:32 stevewch wrote: what's the problem if people want to stay with the better one? a change is always welcome, but it has to be a change to better, not a change to worse.
the problem is things like this- "Even if I returned, I know the kingdom of E-sports from the glory days will never return." and "When compared to BW, the biggest difference is that SC2 just isn't fun to watch" he has no proof to say things like that, just assuming that because he doesn't like watching sc2 that it will never become as popular as brood war.
He does have proof that it's harder to understand. For example, he talked about legibility directly relating to enjoyment, and cited WC3 as an example of a competitive game that wasn't really successful in terms of casual fans.
Almost all SC2 spells don't have casting animations - that makes it harder to understand and enjoy. Additionally, there are LOTS of abilities, almost one or more per unit. Remind you of WC3? I hold out hope, but he seems to be more of a realist.
As long as I can see casts of 2 people playing Starcraft 2, I'll be satisfied.
As for the coach's statement 'You cannot artificially create an E-sports scene', whilst I do not agree with him, I do feel that the potential for growth in E-Sports is much smaller than what other people envision.
I actually do no want the Starcraft 2 scene to go mainstream (such as ESPN) since I quite like the size of the community as it is.
Every matchup without protoss it's fun to watch in SC2, high level TvZ is awesome.
PvZ> Nexus, hatch, hatch. Roaches vs ball transitioning to BL/festor vs Mothership/ball. PvT> Protoss tries to ball, Terran tries to avoid it. PvP> Worst matchup for many reasons, no extra bases for example.
In my opinion protoss race has to be completely redesigned.
On May 30 2012 01:59 Cejotas wrote: Great interview.
Every matchup without protoss it's fun to watch in SC2, high level TvZ is awesome.
PvZ> Nexus, hatch, hatch. Roaches vs ball transitioning to BL/festor vs Mothership/ball. PvT> Protoss tries to ball, Terran tries to avoid it. PvP> Worst matchup for many reasons, no extra bases for example.
In my opinion protoss race has to be completely redesigned.
SC 2 is definitely not fun to watch in its current state. There needs to be something done about the unit clumping since that is a major factor in making the game ugly to watch. I remember seeing a post on tl of how groups of units would look like if they changed the clumping thing.
Great interview, always nice to hear what a old time coach has to say.
I have to say it is interesting to hear what people are saying about the comparison of sc and sc2. Most of it being subjective, including what I am saying. However as time has been going on and more SC pros are trying out SC2 they are saying the opposite what most of you are saying. The macro is easier to control but that does not mean that it is easier. If you have two pros playing each other they both have the same macro advantage vs regular sc. This is a competitive game vs people so your are looking at people's skills as well as mechanics. That being said the micro is harder than SC. And before all you say that it is not lets look at the latest interviews from Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash. They all agree that the micro is harder in SC2. Unless you guys think you have more insight than them I suggest you let your walls down a little and give it a chance.
Its like trying to write a program from scratch. Or building something using only primitive tools. Of course some aspects are going to be harder but your end goal is not going to be as beautiful. Do not be so naive to think that it is easier becaues the tools are more primitive. In SC2 you can be doing things constantly and as the game goes on you can expand and macro much faster than SC so it goes out of control way faster. The pros also say how the game is smoother. This does not mean it is easier either. Both players with have the smoothness advantage. This just means that you can be more accurate,precise, and faster. You can argue that these things can make it harder because we are optimizing peoples reaction time. Perhaps battles seem clumped and ball'd up armies are often seen because it is hard to be efficent.
The games are simliar in some ways but are different in many. In the end it comes down to the strategic mind of the player and the time they sacrifice. I think SC2 has catered to the faster paced decision making that will ultimately lead to a more advanced game.
Really great to see this history I knew nothing about. Really impressed with a lot of what Coach Jung had to say. Shame he isn't a fan of SC2... Maybe he's got it right, time will tell I guess. I know I love the game but that has very little to do with whether or not it will ever become an "empire" like BW was back in the day. I really hope it grows and flourishes over the next few years but who knows?
On May 30 2012 04:17 Niska wrote: Great interview, always nice to hear what a old time coach has to say.
I have to say it is interesting to hear what people are saying about the comparison of sc and sc2. Most of it being subjective, including what I am saying. However as time has been going on and more SC pros are trying out SC2 they are saying the opposite what most of you are saying. The macro is easier to control but that does not mean that it is easier. If you have two pros playing each other they both have the same macro advantage vs regular sc. This is a competitive game vs people so your are looking at people's skills as well as mechanics. That being said the micro is harder than SC. And before all you say that it is not lets look at the latest interviews from Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash. They all agree that the micro is harder in SC2. Unless you guys think you have more insight than them I suggest you let your walls down a little and give it a chance.
Its like trying to write a program from scratch. Or building something using only primitive tools. Of course some aspects are going to be harder but your end goal is not going to be as beautiful. Do not be so naive to think that it is easier becaues the tools are more primitive. In SC2 you can be doing things constantly and as the game goes on you can expand and macro much faster than SC so it goes out of control way faster. The pros also say how the game is smoother. This does not mean it is easier either. Both players with have the smoothness advantage. This just means that you can be more accurate,precise, and faster. You can argue that these things can make it harder because we are optimizing peoples reaction time. Perhaps battles seem clumped and ball'd up armies are often seen because it is hard to be efficent.
The games are simliar in some ways but are different in many. In the end it comes down to the strategic mind of the player and the time they sacrifice. I think SC2 has catered to the faster paced decision making that will ultimately lead to a more advanced game.
Nice straw man argument. Nowhere did he claim that SC2 was easier to play than BW.
On May 30 2012 01:59 Cejotas wrote: Great interview.
Every matchup without protoss it's fun to watch in SC2, high level TvZ is awesome.
PvZ> Nexus, hatch, hatch. Roaches vs ball transitioning to BL/festor vs Mothership/ball. PvT> Protoss tries to ball, Terran tries to avoid it. PvP> Worst matchup for many reasons, no extra bases for example.
In my opinion protoss race has to be completely redesigned.
On May 30 2012 01:59 Cejotas wrote: Great interview.
Every matchup without protoss it's fun to watch in SC2, high level TvZ is awesome.
PvZ> Nexus, hatch, hatch. Roaches vs ball transitioning to BL/festor vs Mothership/ball. PvT> Protoss tries to ball, Terran tries to avoid it. PvP> Worst matchup for many reasons, no extra bases for example.
In my opinion protoss race has to be completely redesigned.
I like all the matchups in BW, including ZvZ
Yes, the game would be better without Prostoss
I would have to agree, I don't watch brood war, but in SC2 protoss makes games a lot of the time kinda "meh", because useally its either 1-2 base all ins from protoss in all matchups, or waiting for 30 minutes to have 1 vortex either fail or end it all.
This isn't the case with EVERY protoss matchup, but the vast majority, maybe Protoss needs an overall change? maybe they just haven't developed fully yet? I don't enjoy watching Protoss as much, but sometimes it can be amazing, like the recent GSL finals which featured some dull games, and some amazing games.
But a lot in sports is also the story, sure some people enjoy watching the game for merely the games, but the stories are probably the most exciting part, of any sport, SC2, BW or anything else.
But what I don't quite understand is if BW is doing so amazingly well, why didn't they keep going? from my point of view, it looks like they don't get enough viewers, and want to expand to SC2, I don't think their hybrid league is a good idea but yeah.
A lot of whats said in the interview is the personal opinion of the coach.
I feel like for me who was never into BW and first entered the scene with SC2, it just doesn't seem like there is any appeal to BW, sure there is a lot of people with bad microphones commentating the game, but the only reason I can understand somewhat of what happens in BW is because of my SC2 knowledge.
Maybe BW is easier to watch if the commentator is good and speaks a language you understand. I also think one of the problems with SC2 is not the game but a lot of commentators just didn't but the effort in. There is 3 things that can get me to watch SC2 - - The storyline of a tournament or player. - The casters. - The players.
For the big BW fans, would you watch a BW game commentated by people who don't know the game and players well? While the players playing isn't any big names just some random B teamers.
If your a massive BW fan, I can see why its hard to watch SC2 because you don't know the stories behind the player or you ran into a bad caster, which there is plenty of in SC2 (many are improving though).
Also I believe that while there is "amazing micro" and all that in SC2, it is probably less than in BW, I think a lot of SC2 is decision making, watching the great decisions displayed by players is amazing and its useally very tense.
I wont say "let SC2 grow and it will be as amazing" as long as the BW fans don't say "The evolution of BW over 10 years is what makes it great". I believe I came out with some good opinions and possibly facts, but I think that if your a big BW fan, you will have a hard time switching to SC2 because you dont know the players, the storylines and so forth.
On May 30 2012 01:59 Cejotas wrote: Great interview.
Every matchup without protoss it's fun to watch in SC2, high level TvZ is awesome.
PvZ> Nexus, hatch, hatch. Roaches vs ball transitioning to BL/festor vs Mothership/ball. PvT> Protoss tries to ball, Terran tries to avoid it. PvP> Worst matchup for many reasons, no extra bases for example.
In my opinion protoss race has to be completely redesigned.
On May 30 2012 06:15 Hiea wrote: For the big BW fans, would you watch a BW game commentated by people who don't know the game and players well? While the players playing isn't any big names just some random B teamers.
BW isn't some sort of fancy movie for me, I rather like to see good games than stories. If I was into those, I'd read a book or watch some hollywood flick about sports. In the past there were numerous streams with not-too good commentators, including broadcasts of major events (I remember Day9 telling something about those in his 100th show?).
Ironically, a really bad commentator can make a cast good again, coming from the other side of the spectrum, if the viewer already knows the game. That's a whole different story though. Language and knowledge really don't matter too much, ilovev aka yoda might be the best example. It either catches your attention and entertains you or it doesn't - simple as that.
It's a game, not some thing you need to construct first. No need to make a science out of it or do what-if plays to measure the amount of fun it will have has output. That just won't work.
On May 30 2012 06:15 Hiea wrote: For the big BW fans, would you watch a BW game commentated by people who don't know the game and players well? While the players playing isn't any big names just some random B teamers.
BW isn't some sort of fancy movie for me, I rather like to see good games than stories. If I was into those, I'd read a book or watch some hollywood flick about sports. In the past there were numerous streams with not-too good commentators, including broadcasts of major events (I remember Day9 telling something about those in his 100th show?).
Ironically, a really bad commentator can make a cast good again, coming from the other side of the spectrum, if the viewer already knows the game. That's a whole different story though. Language and knowledge really don't matter too much, ilovev aka yoda might be the best example. It either catches your attention and entertains you or it doesn't - simple as that.
It's a game, not some thing you need to construct first. No need to make a science out of it or do what-if plays to measure the amount of fun it will have has output. That just won't work.
My answer is: yes most definitely I would.
I have to agree with you. In fact, most bw foreigners have a preference for korean commentators. I like watching replays, even when they are not from BoxeR. I started watching foreign bw not knowing anyone. I also have a very deep problem with people who say they enjoy bw/sc2 for the "histories". I used to be a bit like that, and I don't mind some hype trashtalk between the players, but I think this idea really goes too far sometimes. If bw wasn't as deep strategically, I don't think I would still be watching it.
I don't think neither sc2 or bw is fun to watch, unless you know the game. At least the tech structure and basics. But sc2 is way too hard for my eyes, BW had clear bright graphics, and no unit clumping.
On May 29 2012 23:32 stevewch wrote: what's the problem if people want to stay with the better one? a change is always welcome, but it has to be a change to better, not a change to worse.
the problem is things like this- "Even if I returned, I know the kingdom of E-sports from the glory days will never return." and "When compared to BW, the biggest difference is that SC2 just isn't fun to watch" he has no proof to say things like that, just assuming that because he doesn't like watching sc2 that it will never become as popular as brood war.
He does have proof that it's harder to understand. For example, he talked about legibility directly relating to enjoyment, and cited WC3 as an example of a competitive game that wasn't really successful in terms of casual fans.
Almost all SC2 spells don't have casting animations - that makes it harder to understand and enjoy. Additionally, there are LOTS of abilities, almost one or more per unit. Remind you of WC3? I hold out hope, but he seems to be more of a realist.
Except he doesn't explain why War3 was hard to understand. War3 was hard to watch for casual viewers because literally battles boiled down to subtle positioning and spells. There were so many times where battles were decided because hero X was 2 steps too close or far relative to the enemy. You can't really explain that to casual viewers.
That isn't the case in SC2. I haven't played a single game of SC2, only have a basic understanding of game dynamics, and I enjoy watching the games.
I think I'm going to leave aside whether or not the games are fun to watch.
But this I 100% agree with
You cannot artificially create an E-sports scene. Even with the FPS leagues, if KeSPA had carefully considered and incorporated the public's reception into the equation, embracing the fans' voice, they would not be in the predicament that they find themselves in right now. I believe a bottom-up approach with a governing body that merely organizes and facilitates the fans' natural penchants is the only way to expand E-sports further.
KESPA really is trying a top down approach and that makes no sense to me. The popularity isn't there in Korea, but we're going to educate people to enjoy something. Whereas the inclusion of LoL in the OGN makes much more sense to me. Leave aside he SC2 vs LoL argument for a bit because the player base is there to support a league rather than telling LoL fans to wait, that eventually the game will become awesome sometime down the road. They don't need to give the game time, they're already playing it.
o those who criticize BW for being closed off to South Korea: did we get to where we are through entering foreign tournaments? No, it was the other way around: we inspired foreign entities to hold tournaments through displaying our passion.
I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
^It's not that they discriminated foreigners. Could you name some foreigners who would have had the talent and dedication to compete with the Korean Pros, but were prevented from entering the Proscene?
Courage Tourny? Almost every guy, korean or not, would have needed to gone throught that one. Invites? Idra.
You cannot artificially create an E-sports scene. Even with the FPS leagues, if KeSPA had carefully considered and incorporated the public's reception into the equation, embracing the fans' voice, they would not be in the predicament that they find themselves in right now. I believe a bottom-up approach with a governing body that merely organizes and facilitates the fans' natural penchants is the only way to expand E-sports further.
KESPA really is trying a top down approach and that makes no sense to me. The popularity isn't there in Korea, but we're going to educate people to enjoy something. Whereas the inclusion of LoL in the OGN makes much more sense to me. Leave aside he SC2 vs LoL argument for a bit because the player base is there to support a league rather than telling LoL fans to wait, that eventually the game will become awesome sometime down the road. They don't need to give the game time, they're already playing it.
Well, if the BW teams switched to LoL, I imagine there'd be a lot of waiting for them to get good at LoL. Even SC2, a game much more similar to BW than LoL, has had a lot of.....bad....games in Proleague (even as a fan of SC2, I thought they've mainly ranged from boring to outright comical).
On May 29 2012 04:48 nadafanboy42 wrote: I have all respect for his expertise, but when anybody says "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" I just can't take them serious. Top SC2 events regularly draw in over 100,000+ concurrent viewers. Are these people implying that those viewers all just sadomasochists? It's fine to argue that Broodwar is more fun to watch than SC2, I'd even agree. But the constant argument of Broodwar elitist that "SC2 just isn't fun to watch" is just stuck up bullshit in the light of the hundreds of thousands of fans who do think SC2 is fun enough to not only watch, but pay money for the privilige of watching.
SC2 is fun to watch if you are not used to SC1. If you are used to SC1, it is boring, because SC1 is more fun to watch. (and play).
I only reached B rank in BW, but it was enough to make me realize how much more there is to BW than SC2 and how much more beautiful it is, even though I became much better at SC2 than I ever was at SC1 (GM, reached rank 2 on EU, and won some small online cash prized cups over pro gamers, foreigner and korean)
I can totally appreciate that he doesn't like watching SC2, that's his opinion. I differ in opinion to the furthest possible degree (I watch fucktonnes of SC2 and enjoy it).
But I couldn't disagree more with this:
For BW, you could know jack about the game but still enjoy it because there was a ubiquitous element of fun throughout the game. In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games.
and I feel that this is actually quite an ill-thought out remark to make, and that he's flat out wrong. He's in a terrible position to make a call like that. He's known BW deeply for years and been intricately involved with it for that same time frame; he doesn't know what the average guy feels or knows when he first tunes into either game now, because he was there while the very first games of pro-starcraft were being broadcast. He "grew up" with esports, and it's different now that it's established. He basically says BW has a magical fun to it, and SC2 doesn't. No, what BW has to it (for him) is nostalgia. That's what BW has been to him, and is still - nostalgic, and something he loves and has loved. (I feel nostalgia describes a lot of negativity in the gaming scene in general:"The new Pokémon SUCK!" - "Why?" - "Because they're new!")
I grew up not really knowing anything about esports or pro gaming (which is a shame, I'd have loved to). I'd heard of StarCraft before I got into SC2, but never played, watched, or known anything much about it. I watched quite a bit of SC2 during SC2's beta phase when a friend introduced me. Do you know what I felt when I watched BW for the first time, bearing in mind I had a pretty good knowledge of a very similar game (SC2) to get me started?
"I have no fucking clue what's going on."
Do you know what I continued to feel? The exact same. Until I put in the time to research what the units were and did, I had no idea what was going on. RTS is kinda like that.
On some level I had comprehension of it (aided by my SC2 knowledge) - "OK, he has a lot of Zerg units, the other guy has a scary looking but smaller Protoss army; will the numbers prevail or will the smaller army with more strength prevail?" - and I think on a basic level, anyone watching can understand this, but you can't enjoy either game without knowledge beyond this basic thing, and even then it doesn't make much sense - i.e. "ok, he got a lot of units and won. Why didn't the other guy get a lot of units too?" isn't easy to understand if you don't understand the mechanics.
People go on about "appreciating esports without knowing anything about it" but I think that's horseshit for all of them. I don't think you can really enjoy a pro game of BW or SC2 without knowing something about it. It's the same for LoL/DotA (ok, they have 2 teams, dunno what they can do or why they're doing what they're doing), FPS games (why isn't that Quake guy just running up and blasting the other guy? And why's he not going to pick up the big gun?)
All of these games can be watched on a basic level (on different levels), but the kind of enjoyment fans who watch regularly get can only be appreciated with an understanding. This is true in "real" sports. I understand that hitting the puck into the net in Hockey is a good thing, but I know nothing much more than that. In football/soccer, however, I understand the basics and more, and thus can derive fun from watching the strategic maneuvers and personal displays of skill.
In BW without knowledge, I can appreciate "a goal". In BW with knowledge, I can appreciate the build up to the goal, involving passing play and technical skill to make it happe. Same for SC2, same for all esports.
So yeah, that comment annoyed me a bit. This was kinda longer than I intended...
As for the rest of the article, it's always interesting to read stuff like this
On May 30 2012 09:04 OptimusYale wrote: o those who criticize BW for being closed off to South Korea: did we get to where we are through entering foreign tournaments? No, it was the other way around: we inspired foreign entities to hold tournaments through displaying our passion.
I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
SK didnt keep foreigners out of BW, they flew in foreigners when they were competitive and at the start most of them were better than the best of Korea. Don't blame Korean BW or Kespa that foreigners sucked. No one wants to watch some foreigner roll over and die in the most boring manner (Go watch some WCG vods if you want to see some example).
On May 30 2012 09:04 OptimusYale wrote: o those who criticize BW for being closed off to South Korea: did we get to where we are through entering foreign tournaments? No, it was the other way around: we inspired foreign entities to hold tournaments through displaying our passion.
I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
SK didnt keep foreigners out of BW, they flew in foreigners when they were competitive and at the start most of them were better than the best of Korea. Don't blame Korean BW or Kespa that foreigners sucked. No one wants to watch some foreigner roll over and die in the most boring manner (Go watch some WCG vods if you want to see some example).
Foreigner just couldn't keep up with the Korean counterpart. And only recently in SC2, a few players have set role models of being assiduous, like Naniwa. I heard rumors that Stephano doesn't actually practice that much?
On May 30 2012 09:25 Ribbon wrote: Well, if the BW teams switched to LoL, I imagine there'd be a lot of waiting for them to get good at LoL. Even SC2, a game much more similar to BW than LoL, has had a lot of.....bad....games in Proleague (even as a fan of SC2, I thought they've mainly ranged from boring to outright comical).
If the BW teams switched to League, then most of the players on each team would exist. League is a team game, and you won't need more than 2 teams (If not just keeping one). Team work within a game hasn't existed in Brood War since 2v2 was removed.
On May 30 2012 09:59 SgtCoDFish wrote: I can totally appreciate that he doesn't like watching SC2, that's his opinion. I differ in opinion to the furthest possible degree (I watch fucktonnes of SC2 and enjoy it).
For BW, you could know jack about the game but still enjoy it because there was a ubiquitous element of fun throughout the game. In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games.
and I feel that this is actually quite an ill-thought out remark to make, and that he's flat out wrong. He's in a terrible position to make a call like that. He's known BW deeply for years and been intricately involved with it for that same time frame; he doesn't know what the average guy feels or knows when he first tunes into either game now, because he was there while the very first games of pro-starcraft were being broadcast. He "grew up" with esports, and it's different now that it's established. He basically says BW has a magical fun to it, and SC2 doesn't. No, what BW has to it (for him) is nostalgia. That's what BW has been to him, and is still - nostalgic, and something he loves and has loved. (I feel nostalgia describes a lot of negativity in the gaming scene in general:"The new Pokémon SUCK!" - "Why?" - "Because they're new!")
I grew up not really knowing anything about esports or pro gaming (which is a shame, I'd have loved to). I'd heard of StarCraft before I got into SC2, but never played, watched, or known anything much about it. I watched quite a bit of SC2 during SC2's beta phase when a friend introduced me. Do you know what I felt when I watched BW for the first time, bearing in mind I had a pretty good knowledge of a very similar game (SC2) to get me started?
"I have no fucking clue what's going on."
Do you know what I continued to feel? The exact same. Until I put in the time to research what the units were and did, I had no idea what was going on. RTS is kinda like that.
On some level I had comprehension of it (aided by my SC2 knowledge) - "OK, he has a lot of Zerg units, the other guy has a scary looking but smaller Protoss army; will the numbers prevail or will the smaller army with more strength prevail?" - and I think on a basic level, anyone watching can understand this, but you can't enjoy either game without knowledge beyond this basic thing, and even then it doesn't make much sense - i.e. "ok, he got a lot of units and won. Why didn't the other guy get a lot of units too?" isn't easy to understand if you don't understand the mechanics.
People go on about "appreciating esports without knowing anything about it" but I think that's horseshit for all of them. I don't think you can really enjoy a pro game of BW or SC2 without knowing something about it. It's the same for LoL/DotA (ok, they have 2 teams, dunno what they can do or why they're doing what they're doing), FPS games (why isn't that Quake guy just running up and blasting the other guy? And why's he not going to pick up the big gun?)
All of these games can be watched on a basic level (on different levels), but the kind of enjoyment fans who watch regularly get can only be appreciated with an understanding. This is true in "real" sports. I understand that hitting the puck into the net in Hockey is a good thing, but I know nothing much more than that. In football/soccer, however, I understand the basics and more, and thus can derive fun from watching the strategic maneuvers and personal displays of skill.
In BW without knowledge, I can appreciate "a goal". In BW with knowledge, I can appreciate the build up to the goal, involving passing play and technical skill to make it happe. Same for SC2, same for all esports.
So yeah, that comment annoyed me a bit. This was kinda longer than I intended...
As for the rest of the article, it's always interesting to read stuff like this
People go on about "appreciating esports without knowing anything about it" but I think that's horseshit for all of them. I don't think you can really enjoy a pro game of BW or SC2 without knowing something about it. It's the same for LoL/DotA (ok, they have 2 teams, dunno what they can do or why they're doing what they're doing), FPS games (why isn't that Quake guy just running up and blasting the other guy? And why's he not going to pick up the big gun?)
Ahhh quake most people think it's just a run and gun game without any skill management and most people who thought that are wrong you have to have mental count down for all the items spawning in the arena . The items you control from your opponent will make or break you . Why would you go for a big gun in quake ? Rocket launcher and rail guns are your best combo and heck even plasma can be used to demolish your opponent . In my opinion it really depends on the caster skills especially the one who did cast IEM 2011 for quake the guy was really good .I don't know jack shit about quake however until I listen to him casting what the players are doing than I realized that I had the wrong perception of quake and the game actually takes much more skill than just how fast your reflexes .
I watch most e-sport games excluding sc2 because the game isn't interesting and most of the battle are really boring
and I feel that this is actually quite an ill-thought out remark to make, and that he's flat out wrong. He's in a terrible position to make a call like that. He's known BW deeply for years and been intricately involved with it for that same time frame; he doesn't know what the average guy feels or knows when he first tunes into either game now, because he was there while the very first games of pro-starcraft were being broadcast. He "grew up" with esports, and it's different now that it's established. He basically says BW has a magical fun to it, and SC2 doesn't. No, what BW has to it (for him) is nostalgia. That's what BW has been to him, and is still - nostalgic, and something he loves and has loved. (I feel nostalgia describes a lot of negativity in the gaming scene in general:"The new Pokémon SUCK!" - "Why?" - "Because they're new!")
No bro, bringing up the nostalgic card does not make your argument any better. He stated the truth here because of the simple basis of action of screen and not just because he "grew up with bw . He is a freaking coach and you think he just grew up with bw ? He spend most of his time watching bw for fun and most of the time managing the players . I would have agree with you if he was one of those pro gamers who grew up with bw but he isn't .
The lack of unit micro in sc2 such as muta and whole lots of other units doesn't make the game any more interesting . Half of the time I will be watching sc2 I will be in dream land thinking of sexy korean girls and than wake up in the middle of game to find out the game is over . I mean what the hell what's wrong with the game . I open and broodwar games even if it's a bad one I could get excited over it .
Also I didn't know about broodwar until I watch klazart who educated me the ways of the broodwar and his high WPM for every action on the screen was just so amazing . It doesn't take whole lot of introduction to understand an esport game if the commentator is willing to explain what's happening on screen what the players are doing than everything is set to go smoothly and lots of newcomer to the game will enjoy the game .
I can totally appreciate that he doesn't like watching SC2, that's his opinion. I differ in opinion to the furthest possible degree (I watch fucktonnes of SC2 and enjoy it).
But I couldn't disagree more with this:
For BW, you could know jack about the game but still enjoy it because there was a ubiquitous element of fun throughout the game. In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games.
and I feel that this is actually quite an ill-thought out remark to make, and that he's flat out wrong. He's in a terrible position to make a call like that. He's known BW deeply for years and been intricately involved with it for that same time frame; he doesn't know what the average guy feels or knows when he first tunes into either game now, because he was there while the very first games of pro-starcraft were being broadcast. He "grew up" with esports, and it's different now that it's established. He basically says BW has a magical fun to it, and SC2 doesn't. No, what BW has to it (for him) is nostalgia. That's what BW has been to him, and is still - nostalgic, and something he loves and has loved. (I feel nostalgia describes a lot of negativity in the gaming scene in general:"The new Pokémon SUCK!" - "Why?" - "Because they're new!")
I grew up not really knowing anything about esports or pro gaming (which is a shame, I'd have loved to). I'd heard of StarCraft before I got into SC2, but never played, watched, or known anything much about it. I watched quite a bit of SC2 during SC2's beta phase when a friend introduced me. Do you know what I felt when I watched BW for the first time, bearing in mind I had a pretty good knowledge of a very similar game (SC2) to get me started?
"I have no fucking clue what's going on."
Do you know what I continued to feel? The exact same. Until I put in the time to research what the units were and did, I had no idea what was going on. RTS is kinda like that.
On some level I had comprehension of it (aided by my SC2 knowledge) - "OK, he has a lot of Zerg units, the other guy has a scary looking but smaller Protoss army; will the numbers prevail or will the smaller army with more strength prevail?" - and I think on a basic level, anyone watching can understand this, but you can't enjoy either game without knowledge beyond this basic thing, and even then it doesn't make much sense - i.e. "ok, he got a lot of units and won. Why didn't the other guy get a lot of units too?" isn't easy to understand if you don't understand the mechanics.
People go on about "appreciating esports without knowing anything about it" but I think that's horseshit for all of them. I don't think you can really enjoy a pro game of BW or SC2 without knowing something about it. It's the same for LoL/DotA (ok, they have 2 teams, dunno what they can do or why they're doing what they're doing), FPS games (why isn't that Quake guy just running up and blasting the other guy? And why's he not going to pick up the big gun?)
All of these games can be watched on a basic level (on different levels), but the kind of enjoyment fans who watch regularly get can only be appreciated with an understanding. This is true in "real" sports. I understand that hitting the puck into the net in Hockey is a good thing, but I know nothing much more than that. In football/soccer, however, I understand the basics and more, and thus can derive fun from watching the strategic maneuvers and personal displays of skill.
In BW without knowledge, I can appreciate "a goal". In BW with knowledge, I can appreciate the build up to the goal, involving passing play and technical skill to make it happe. Same for SC2, same for all esports.
So yeah, that comment annoyed me a bit. This was kinda longer than I intended...
As for the rest of the article, it's always interesting to read stuff like this
On May 29 2012 22:50 bubblegumbo wrote: What an old school baller, I agree with him that SC2 isn't as great to watch but not for the same reasons. He criticizes SC2 for not being casual friendly to watch because it's harder to understand? On the contrary SC2 is too easy to watch with too many types of non-micro intensive army balls attacking into each other.
There is no mutalisk micro, no shuttle reaver micro, etc for example. Sc2's units are just terribly boring and games are getting bland to watch especially due to the numerous amount of tournaments/streams out there. Compare this to BW where we know it takes tremendous skill already to overcome the crappy UI to micro and macro well, in addition to seeing great units being used intelligently that don't have their equivalent in SC2(spider mines is the biggest missing piece in my opinion, the lack of viable mech play), BW is actually more complex while SC2 is more straightforward to watch.
Disagree. When i first watched proBW in 2009 i had no idea what dragoons reavers and ultralisks were but it didn't matter because it is clear what is going on. Later on when i slowly learn't a bit more i began to appreciate other aspects like mechanics. This isn't the case with SC2. I know starcraft and SC2 makes me go "what the shit?" too often. Your points about UI and such make SC2 easier to play as opposed to easier to spectate. The viewer demographic for BW is incredibly wide 3y olds - 70y olds. For SC2? 14y olds to <30's gamer nerds.
BW is more casual friendly.
Anecdotes are good and all but you need some empirical evidence to back up your claims.
I think the coach shares what I feel about E-sports. He wanted it to become an actual "sport" enjoyed by people of all ages, not just gamers. I think he is sad that such a sport like BW is being replaced by just a competitive game in SCToo.
I think a lot of arguments arise because BW fans and SC2 fans have very different visions for "E-sports" and friction occurs. I, personally, wanted a game to rise up and truly transcend the boundaries of a "game" and have it be a sport. What do you want to see out of all this?
On May 30 2012 09:04 OptimusYale wrote: o those who criticize BW for being closed off to South Korea: did we get to where we are through entering foreign tournaments? No, it was the other way around: we inspired foreign entities to hold tournaments through displaying our passion.
I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
korea did not keep bw closed to them. even if they did, it has nothing to do with foreign organisations not running more bw tournaments.
On May 30 2012 11:15 jpak wrote: I think the coach shares what I feel about E-sports. He wanted it to become an actual "sport" enjoyed by people of all ages, not just gamers. I think he is sad that such a sport like BW is being replaced by just a competitive game in SCToo.
I think a lot of arguments arise because BW fans and SC2 fans have very different visions for "E-sports" and friction occurs. I, personally, wanted a game to rise up and truly transcend the boundaries of a "game" and have it be a sport. What do you want to see out of all this?
With BW being replaced I'm pretty disillusioned about such things being possible anymore
On May 30 2012 11:15 jpak wrote: I think the coach shares what I feel about E-sports. He wanted it to become an actual "sport" enjoyed by people of all ages, not just gamers. I think he is sad that such a sport like BW is being replaced by just a competitive game in SCToo.
I think a lot of arguments arise because BW fans and SC2 fans have very different visions for "E-sports" and friction occurs. I, personally, wanted a game to rise up and truly transcend the boundaries of a "game" and have it be a sport. What do you want to see out of all this?
With BW being replaced I'm pretty disillusioned about such things being possible anymore
Maybe, maybe not. Let's see how foreign scene will be in the future before we can really judge that.
But the foreign seems very healthy. We have televised match of SC2 in Taiwan. Barcraft seems to grow steadily with and there's even a bar for gamer opened in Paris. Maybe it's time that the Starcraft Scene shift from Korea to other part and Korea becomes where players are grown like other sports.
On May 30 2012 09:59 SgtCoDFish wrote: I can totally appreciate that he doesn't like watching SC2, that's his opinion. I differ in opinion to the furthest possible degree (I watch fucktonnes of SC2 and enjoy it).
But I couldn't disagree more with this:
For BW, you could know jack about the game but still enjoy it because there was a ubiquitous element of fun throughout the game. In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games.
and I feel that this is actually quite an ill-thought out remark to make, and that he's flat out wrong. He's in a terrible position to make a call like that. He's known BW deeply for years and been intricately involved with it for that same time frame; he doesn't know what the average guy feels or knows when he first tunes into either game now, because he was there while the very first games of pro-starcraft were being broadcast. He "grew up" with esports, and it's different now that it's established. He basically says BW has a magical fun to it, and SC2 doesn't. No, what BW has to it (for him) is nostalgia. That's what BW has been to him, and is still - nostalgic, and something he loves and has loved. (I feel nostalgia describes a lot of negativity in the gaming scene in general:"The new Pokémon SUCK!" - "Why?" - "Because they're new!")
I grew up not really knowing anything about esports or pro gaming (which is a shame, I'd have loved to). I'd heard of StarCraft before I got into SC2, but never played, watched, or known anything much about it. I watched quite a bit of SC2 during SC2's beta phase when a friend introduced me. Do you know what I felt when I watched BW for the first time, bearing in mind I had a pretty good knowledge of a very similar game (SC2) to get me started?
"I have no fucking clue what's going on."
Do you know what I continued to feel? The exact same. Until I put in the time to research what the units were and did, I had no idea what was going on. RTS is kinda like that.
On some level I had comprehension of it (aided by my SC2 knowledge) - "OK, he has a lot of Zerg units, the other guy has a scary looking but smaller Protoss army; will the numbers prevail or will the smaller army with more strength prevail?" - and I think on a basic level, anyone watching can understand this, but you can't enjoy either game without knowledge beyond this basic thing, and even then it doesn't make much sense - i.e. "ok, he got a lot of units and won. Why didn't the other guy get a lot of units too?" isn't easy to understand if you don't understand the mechanics.
People go on about "appreciating esports without knowing anything about it" but I think that's horseshit for all of them. I don't think you can really enjoy a pro game of BW or SC2 without knowing something about it. It's the same for LoL/DotA (ok, they have 2 teams, dunno what they can do or why they're doing what they're doing), FPS games (why isn't that Quake guy just running up and blasting the other guy? And why's he not going to pick up the big gun?)
All of these games can be watched on a basic level (on different levels), but the kind of enjoyment fans who watch regularly get can only be appreciated with an understanding. This is true in "real" sports. I understand that hitting the puck into the net in Hockey is a good thing, but I know nothing much more than that. In football/soccer, however, I understand the basics and more, and thus can derive fun from watching the strategic maneuvers and personal displays of skill.
In BW without knowledge, I can appreciate "a goal". In BW with knowledge, I can appreciate the build up to the goal, involving passing play and technical skill to make it happe. Same for SC2, same for all esports.
So yeah, that comment annoyed me a bit. This was kinda longer than I intended...
As for the rest of the article, it's always interesting to read stuff like this
People go on about "appreciating esports without knowing anything about it" but I think that's horseshit for all of them. I don't think you can really enjoy a pro game of BW or SC2 without knowing something about it. It's the same for LoL/DotA (ok, they have 2 teams, dunno what they can do or why they're doing what they're doing), FPS games (why isn't that Quake guy just running up and blasting the other guy? And why's he not going to pick up the big gun?)
Ahhh quake most people think it's just a run and gun game without any skill management and most people who thought that are wrong you have to have mental count down for all the items spawning in the arena . The items you control from your opponent will make or break you . Why would you go for a big gun in quake ? Rocket launcher and rail guns are your best combo and heck even plasma can be used to demolish your opponent . In my opinion it really depends on the caster skills especially the one who did cast IEM 2011 for quake the guy was really good .I don't know jack shit about quake however until I listen to him casting what the players are doing than I realized that I had the wrong perception of quake and the game actually takes much more skill than just how fast your reflexes .
Are you trying to educate me? I know all that :S I was saying that those questions are the kind people might have upon first viewing. I agree Quake is awesome, I like Quake and enjoyed it a year or so ago when it'd be on at IEMs while I was waiting to watch the SC2.
I watch most e-sport games excluding sc2 because the game isn't interesting and most of the battle are really boring
So much opinion. That's fine - I don't care if people don't have the same opinion as me - but it's not really relevant to anything I said, and smacks of you just taking any shot you can at SC2.
and I feel that this is actually quite an ill-thought out remark to make, and that he's flat out wrong. He's in a terrible position to make a call like that. He's known BW deeply for years and been intricately involved with it for that same time frame; he doesn't know what the average guy feels or knows when he first tunes into either game now, because he was there while the very first games of pro-starcraft were being broadcast. He "grew up" with esports, and it's different now that it's established. He basically says BW has a magical fun to it, and SC2 doesn't. No, what BW has to it (for him) is nostalgia. That's what BW has been to him, and is still - nostalgic, and something he loves and has loved. (I feel nostalgia describes a lot of negativity in the gaming scene in general:"The new Pokémon SUCK!" - "Why?" - "Because they're new!")
No bro, bringing up the nostalgic card does not make your argument any better. He stated the truth here because of the simple basis of action of screen and not just because he "grew up with bw . He is a freaking coach and you think he just grew up with bw ? He spend most of his time watching bw for fun and most of the time managing the players . I would have agree with you if he was one of those pro gamers who grew up with bw but he isn't .
He actually is nostalgic though, "bro", and you making out like I don't appreciate how much he's done with BW in his life doesn't make your argument any better either. He put a huge amount of his life into the game, of course he's nostalgic as it (sadly) starts to fade. I'm not trying to belittle him or what he did or say he's entirely motivated by nostalgia; I'm saying he's not the best judge of what it's like as a new player/viewer tuning in for the first time, partially because of how different BW is now to how it was, partially because he got into it in a scene that no longer exists. He got into a good game that had a scene start to develop around it. Now people are getting into a game that is well established. He got into it in what is essentially a completely different era. But hell, if you don't like that point, OK; the rest of my points stand.
You're going on about all this "action on screen" stuff. You got excited your first few times watching, as you said, by Klazart talking quick and making it exciting for you. He did a great job. You didn't appreciate BW like you do now. I can watch a game of American Football and the commentators can go fucking wild and make me get into it and want to learn more, but I still don't have the first clue what all the stopping and starting is all about or what's going on in general. Even with prior SC2 knowledge to prepare me, what was happening wasn't obvious at all short of "big army vs. big army, sweet, who's gonna win?" or "lots of small armies fighting other small armies, I wonder which ones will win?". If I showed my mum a game of BW she'd have absolutely no clue what was going on at all.
I'd argue BW and SC2 are pretty similar in "first viewing understanding".
My main point throughout the entire post was essentially that I disagree with what he said: that BW has some magical aura that makes games magically exciting, which is pretty much what he was suggesting. You might get drawn in by a good commentator (great, they're doing their job) and learn more and appreciate more. I didn't get drawn in by a good commentator ('cause they were speaking Korean when I first watched and I know like 3 words), but I put in the time and can now appreciate good play in BW like I can in SC2.
The lack of unit micro in sc2 such as muta and whole lots of other units doesn't make the game any more interesting . Half of the time I will be watching sc2 I will be in dream land thinking of sexy korean girls and than wake up in the middle of game to find out the game is over . I mean what the hell what's wrong with the game . I open and broodwar games even if it's a bad one I could get excited over it .
So you don't like the game and prefer BW. Great. Just because you can't concentrate on it, doesn't mean the game's awful. Clearly the thousands of people who watch SC2 regularly are all too busy having wet dreams to actually be watching :S Again, not massively relevant to what I was saying about first times watching.
Having browsed the BW forums a reasonable amount, I know you're one of the BW people that actively expresses intense dislike for SC2, and I honestly couldn't care less if I tried: I wasn't trying to compare the games or start a flame war, because any discussion about the games boils down to a circle of idiocy and falsehoods from both sides where no-one wins.
BW has a magical aura(micro/macro/mechanics/crazy comebacks/stupid stuff/ Interesting units/wild pathing... etc) that makes games exciting, that's why we follow it.
In my experience it is not the only game that has that appeal to me, I've never played 1.6 but I watched a lot of it.
On May 30 2012 09:59 SgtCoDFish wrote: I can totally appreciate that he doesn't like watching SC2, that's his opinion. I differ in opinion to the furthest possible degree (I watch fucktonnes of SC2 and enjoy it).
But I couldn't disagree more with this:
For BW, you could know jack about the game but still enjoy it because there was a ubiquitous element of fun throughout the game. In the case of SC2, people who aren't familiar with the game can't follow the games.
and I feel that this is actually quite an ill-thought out remark to make, and that he's flat out wrong. He's in a terrible position to make a call like that. He's known BW deeply for years and been intricately involved with it for that same time frame; he doesn't know what the average guy feels or knows when he first tunes into either game now, because he was there while the very first games of pro-starcraft were being broadcast. He "grew up" with esports, and it's different now that it's established. He basically says BW has a magical fun to it, and SC2 doesn't. No, what BW has to it (for him) is nostalgia. That's what BW has been to him, and is still - nostalgic, and something he loves and has loved. (I feel nostalgia describes a lot of negativity in the gaming scene in general:"The new Pokémon SUCK!" - "Why?" - "Because they're new!")
I grew up not really knowing anything about esports or pro gaming (which is a shame, I'd have loved to). I'd heard of StarCraft before I got into SC2, but never played, watched, or known anything much about it. I watched quite a bit of SC2 during SC2's beta phase when a friend introduced me. Do you know what I felt when I watched BW for the first time, bearing in mind I had a pretty good knowledge of a very similar game (SC2) to get me started?
"I have no fucking clue what's going on."
Do you know what I continued to feel? The exact same. Until I put in the time to research what the units were and did, I had no idea what was going on. RTS is kinda like that.
On some level I had comprehension of it (aided by my SC2 knowledge) - "OK, he has a lot of Zerg units, the other guy has a scary looking but smaller Protoss army; will the numbers prevail or will the smaller army with more strength prevail?" - and I think on a basic level, anyone watching can understand this, but you can't enjoy either game without knowledge beyond this basic thing, and even then it doesn't make much sense - i.e. "ok, he got a lot of units and won. Why didn't the other guy get a lot of units too?" isn't easy to understand if you don't understand the mechanics.
People go on about "appreciating esports without knowing anything about it" but I think that's horseshit for all of them. I don't think you can really enjoy a pro game of BW or SC2 without knowing something about it. It's the same for LoL/DotA (ok, they have 2 teams, dunno what they can do or why they're doing what they're doing), FPS games (why isn't that Quake guy just running up and blasting the other guy? And why's he not going to pick up the big gun?)
All of these games can be watched on a basic level (on different levels), but the kind of enjoyment fans who watch regularly get can only be appreciated with an understanding. This is true in "real" sports. I understand that hitting the puck into the net in Hockey is a good thing, but I know nothing much more than that. In football/soccer, however, I understand the basics and more, and thus can derive fun from watching the strategic maneuvers and personal displays of skill.
In BW without knowledge, I can appreciate "a goal". In BW with knowledge, I can appreciate the build up to the goal, involving passing play and technical skill to make it happe. Same for SC2, same for all esports.
So yeah, that comment annoyed me a bit. This was kinda longer than I intended...
As for the rest of the article, it's always interesting to read stuff like this
People go on about "appreciating esports without knowing anything about it" but I think that's horseshit for all of them. I don't think you can really enjoy a pro game of BW or SC2 without knowing something about it. It's the same for LoL/DotA (ok, they have 2 teams, dunno what they can do or why they're doing what they're doing), FPS games (why isn't that Quake guy just running up and blasting the other guy? And why's he not going to pick up the big gun?)
Ahhh quake most people think it's just a run and gun game without any skill management and most people who thought that are wrong you have to have mental count down for all the items spawning in the arena . The items you control from your opponent will make or break you . Why would you go for a big gun in quake ? Rocket launcher and rail guns are your best combo and heck even plasma can be used to demolish your opponent . In my opinion it really depends on the caster skills especially the one who did cast IEM 2011 for quake the guy was really good .I don't know jack shit about quake however until I listen to him casting what the players are doing than I realized that I had the wrong perception of quake and the game actually takes much more skill than just how fast your reflexes .
Are you trying to educate me? I know all that :S I was saying that those questions are the kind people might have upon first viewing. I agree Quake is awesome, I like Quake and enjoyed it a year or so ago when it'd be on at IEMs while I was waiting to watch the SC2.
I watch most e-sport games excluding sc2 because the game isn't interesting and most of the battle are really boring
So much opinion. That's fine - I don't care if people don't have the same opinion as me - but it's not really relevant to anything I said, and smacks of you just taking any shot you can at SC2.
and I feel that this is actually quite an ill-thought out remark to make, and that he's flat out wrong. He's in a terrible position to make a call like that. He's known BW deeply for years and been intricately involved with it for that same time frame; he doesn't know what the average guy feels or knows when he first tunes into either game now, because he was there while the very first games of pro-starcraft were being broadcast. He "grew up" with esports, and it's different now that it's established. He basically says BW has a magical fun to it, and SC2 doesn't. No, what BW has to it (for him) is nostalgia. That's what BW has been to him, and is still - nostalgic, and something he loves and has loved. (I feel nostalgia describes a lot of negativity in the gaming scene in general:"The new Pokémon SUCK!" - "Why?" - "Because they're new!")
No bro, bringing up the nostalgic card does not make your argument any better. He stated the truth here because of the simple basis of action of screen and not just because he "grew up with bw . He is a freaking coach and you think he just grew up with bw ? He spend most of his time watching bw for fun and most of the time managing the players . I would have agree with you if he was one of those pro gamers who grew up with bw but he isn't .
He actually is nostalgic though, "bro", and you making out like I don't appreciate how much he's done with BW in his life doesn't make your argument any better either. He put a huge amount of his life into the game, of course he's nostalgic as it (sadly) starts to fade. I'm not trying to belittle him or what he did or say he's entirely motivated by nostalgia; I'm saying he's not the best judge of what it's like as a new player/viewer tuning in for the first time, partially because of how different BW is now to how it was, partially because he got into it in a scene that no longer exists. He got into a good game that had a scene start to develop around it. Now people are getting into a game that is well established. He got into it in what is essentially a completely different era. But hell, if you don't like that point, OK; the rest of my points stand.
You're going on about all this "action on screen" stuff. You got excited your first few times watching, as you said, by Klazart talking quick and making it exciting for you. He did a great job. You didn't appreciate BW like you do now. I can watch a game of American Football and the commentators can go fucking wild and make me get into it and want to learn more, but I still don't have the first clue what all the stopping and starting is all about or what's going on in general. Even with prior SC2 knowledge to prepare me, what was happening wasn't obvious at all short of "big army vs. big army, sweet, who's gonna win?" or "lots of small armies fighting other small armies, I wonder which ones will win?". If I showed my mum a game of BW she'd have absolutely no clue what was going on at all.
I'd argue BW and SC2 are pretty similar in "first viewing understanding".
My main point throughout the entire post was essentially that I disagree with what he said: that BW has some magical aura that makes games magically exciting, which is pretty much what he was suggesting. You might get drawn in by a good commentator (great, they're doing their job) and learn more and appreciate more. I didn't get drawn in by a good commentator ('cause they were speaking Korean when I first watched and I know like 3 words), but I put in the time and can now appreciate good play in BW like I can in SC2.
The lack of unit micro in sc2 such as muta and whole lots of other units doesn't make the game any more interesting . Half of the time I will be watching sc2 I will be in dream land thinking of sexy korean girls and than wake up in the middle of game to find out the game is over . I mean what the hell what's wrong with the game . I open and broodwar games even if it's a bad one I could get excited over it .
So you don't like the game and prefer BW. Great. Just because you can't concentrate on it, doesn't mean the game's awful. Clearly the thousands of people who watch SC2 regularly are all too busy having wet dreams to actually be watching :S Again, not massively relevant to what I was saying about first times watching.
Having browsed the BW forums a reasonable amount, I know you're one of the BW people that actively expresses intense dislike for SC2, and I honestly couldn't care less if I tried: I wasn't trying to compare the games or start a flame war, because any discussion about the games boils down to a circle of idiocy and falsehoods from both sides where no-one wins.
Yeah just because he is a coach who lead a professional gaming team in bw he has to be nostalgic about it huh ? Anyway you type a lot but in the end the point is you tried to talk shit about him just because he seems to have a point of view that your "favourite sc2" isn't that interesting from his perspective . Bringing in examples like how people don't like the new pokemon and such that doesn't apply to the person of this calibre . Let's put it this way I started playing broodwar at the year 2008 although I did play the campaign as a kid at 14 years old .Am I being nostalgic about the game or am I just taking the game as it is right now ? There is no nostalgia at work here broodwar units are much more interesting even right now compared to sc2 and if you can't accept that that's your problem . Nope your point doesn't stand just because a person who manage a team of players of broodwar pro gamers has to be nostalgic about it .
Unless you are able to talk to the coach and tell him straight to the face that he is being all "nostalgic and wearing tinted glasses" and he says yeah I fucking agree with you .Until than you can keep spewing about all this talk about him being nostalgic but in the end he just simply doesn't agree that sc2 is a better spectator game .
My main point throughout the entire post was essentially that I disagree with what he said: that BW has some magical aura that makes games magically exciting, which is pretty much what he was suggesting. You might get drawn in by a good commentator (great, they're doing their job) and learn more and appreciate more. I didn't get drawn in by a good commentator ('cause they were speaking Korean when I first watched and I know like 3 words), but I put in the time and can now appreciate good play in BW like I can in SC2.
This is why you fail I was talking about commentators giving brief introduction about the games even players who don't know much about the game will get educated about the game if the commentators are good themselves.
You're going on about all this "action on screen" stuff. You got excited your first few times watching, as you said, by Klazart talking quick and making it exciting for you. He did a great job. You didn't appreciate BW like you do now. I can watch a game of American Football and the commentators can go fucking wild and make me get into it and want to learn more, but I still don't have the first clue what all the stopping and starting is all about or what's going on in general. Even with prior SC2 knowledge to prepare me, what was happening wasn't obvious at all short of "big army vs. big army, sweet, who's gonna win?" or "lots of small armies fighting other small armies, I wonder which ones will win?". If I showed my mum a game of BW she'd have absolutely no clue what was going on at all.
I didn't get excited at first because this was my first time watching pro broodwar . The level the pro gamer brought to the game which I thought was a dead game really open my eye . No way in 10 years or now I can ever reach their level of play which than only made more interested in to broodwar. Also broodwar was popular enough in korea for house wives to know who is boxer and is sc2 even that big in foreign country that old grandma and grandpa are watching the game ?
Are you trying to educate me? I know all that :S I was saying that those questions are the kind people might have upon first viewing. I agree Quake is awesome, I like Quake and enjoyed it a year or so ago when it'd be on at IEMs while I was waiting to watch the SC2.
The question most people will be watching quake the first time are what the hell are they doing ? Thanks to commentators like the casters who commented at iem 2011 for quake I actually enjoyed the game more because I realized what the players are doing more instead of just running to each spawn and camp to take out the players .
Also I am starting to sound like a Diablo 2 elitist who hates Diablo 3 when I talk about the game being not interesting and probably I am the minority and therefore there can be 1000 of kids watching sc2 and I don't really care about that because the game just doesn't interest in me.
BW nostalgia argument is the most tiring shit ever, its not nostalgia when the last BW match was less than 24 hours go and the next one in few hours (Fantasy gon win)
On May 30 2012 09:04 OptimusYale wrote: I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
Ever consider the foreigners closing themselves by not playing BW simply because they feel that they could never catch up to the South Koreans?
KeSPA was always open to foreigners playing; they just need to earn the progamer license. It's up to the foreigners whether they could put in as much effort as a draftee practicing BW.
On May 30 2012 09:04 OptimusYale wrote: I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
Ever consider the foreigners closing themselves by not playing BW simply because they feel that they could never catch up to the South Koreans?
KeSPA was always open to foreigners playing; they just need to earn the progamer license. It's up to the foreigners whether they could put in as much effort as a draftee practicing BW.
Me think the difference it would have made if Draco managed to win that courage tournament.
I think that his analysis of esports not being able to establish an empire again was a little harsh. Esports is only growing, and I kind of find it shameful that he's so negative.
On May 30 2012 09:04 OptimusYale wrote: I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
Ever consider the foreigners closing themselves by not playing BW simply because they feel that they could never catch up to the South Koreans?
KeSPA was always open to foreigners playing; they just need to earn the progamer license. It's up to the foreigners whether they could put in as much effort as a draftee practicing BW.
Me think the difference it would have made if Draco managed to win that courage tournament.
great interview indeed, I do agree with him on some points though, it seemed like a really deep interview coming from him. People really did seem horrible to him around that time, although I wasn't there to witness it. Lastly even as a starcraft 2 player, I agree with him that sometimes starcraft 2 just isn't as fun to watch as brood war, but there's still time to develop. Although I dont think its from the lack of knowledge rather that the game can be just a bit fast, or seems that way.
On May 30 2012 14:53 Nuclease wrote: I think that his analysis of esports not being able to establish an empire again was a little harsh. Esports is only growing, and I kind of find it shameful that he's so negative.
ESPORTS will always be a bubble that explodes. over and over again.
I don't really think it's fair to entirely blame kespa for not trying to gain an international audience. Before SC2 even came out you had people streaming beta gameplay and talking about it on twitter and social sites. A lot of that technology didn't even exist when BW was growing. You can put just as much blame on the international community members themselves. The people who were most involved with the community, the ones with the biggest voices, pretty much all threw BW under the bus once SC2 came out. You might as well accuse the NHL of not trying to get Brazilians to watch hockey.
On May 30 2012 16:34 Evangelist wrote: Of course he's going to find BW more interesting. He's invested a lot of his life into it and there is already an interest there.
Much like most BW junkies have. Sorry. SC2 is every bit as interesting and as fascinating to watch and I've watched both games as well as WC3.
Yeah he is pretty fond of BW and his memories with it, who can blame him?
But i do not think i would enjoy watching BW without knowing anything, same with WC3 (which i actually watched on tv from time to time) it is just that BW became so popular that it even sparked interest in the absolutely nongamers, who in turn would start playing, or watch it as long friends and familymember do, and i agree with him that this most likely will not happen again in south korea...
SC2 has built his own playerbase, fanbase and tournaments, of course with players and fans coming over from BW as well, but not exclusively, many other RTS players, blizzard fans (from wc3 and wow) etc joined as well, so it is unfair to say this is a forcefully made scene, and as fast as the switch of the BWteams may seem, i doubt they would do it without good reason, i hope it will play out in their best interest, viewer-, money- and playwise.
On May 30 2012 14:53 Nuclease wrote: I think that his analysis of esports not being able to establish an empire again was a little harsh. Esports is only growing, and I kind of find it shameful that he's so negative.
ESPORTS will always be a bubble that explodes. over and over again.
You said that very beautifully and it certaintly seems to be true at this moment in time. Although i really hope that at one point in the future there will be a bubble that lasts (forever). Probably we will have to wait until the evolution of computers and games slows down drastically for this to happen, who knows?
On May 30 2012 04:17 Niska wrote: Great interview, always nice to hear what a old time coach has to say.
I have to say it is interesting to hear what people are saying about the comparison of sc and sc2. Most of it being subjective, including what I am saying. However as time has been going on and more SC pros are trying out SC2 they are saying the opposite what most of you are saying. The macro is easier to control but that does not mean that it is easier. If you have two pros playing each other they both have the same macro advantage vs regular sc. This is a competitive game vs people so your are looking at people's skills as well as mechanics. That being said the micro is harder than SC. And before all you say that it is not lets look at the latest interviews from Jaedong, Bisu, and Flash. They all agree that the micro is harder in SC2. Unless you guys think you have more insight than them I suggest you let your walls down a little and give it a chance.
Its like trying to write a program from scratch. Or building something using only primitive tools. Of course some aspects are going to be harder but your end goal is not going to be as beautiful. Do not be so naive to think that it is easier becaues the tools are more primitive. In SC2 you can be doing things constantly and as the game goes on you can expand and macro much faster than SC so it goes out of control way faster. The pros also say how the game is smoother. This does not mean it is easier either. Both players with have the smoothness advantage. This just means that you can be more accurate,precise, and faster. You can argue that these things can make it harder because we are optimizing peoples reaction time. Perhaps battles seem clumped and ball'd up armies are often seen because it is hard to be efficent.
The games are simliar in some ways but are different in many. In the end it comes down to the strategic mind of the player and the time they sacrifice. I think SC2 has catered to the faster paced decision making that will ultimately lead to a more advanced game.
*Oh the pros stated it ! ! ! ! ! Not like it would be a possibility that KeSPA told them to find something positive to say in order for SC2 to seem interesting to reluctant BW fans. Truth is your scouting worker alone is harder to micro in BW than a whole late-game Protoss army in SC2. And i'm not exagerating.
*'macro much faster than SC', HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHWHAHWAHHWHAHHWHAWHHAWHAHWHAWHAHHAWHHAWHAW, i'm laughing.
An excellent article and set of opinions. Enjoyed the insight into looking at players, especially from a historical point of view and with respect to leaving flash and jaedong as obstacles to overcome, as well as talking about what the future holds and how he just doesn't see SC2 having the same spectator magnestism. Jung was a significant coach and member of the esports/kespa community, this made it all the more interesting to read. It is however, a shame that he was credited with such negativity given the lack of a title win.
The actual baseball bat incident still blows my mind, though.
On May 30 2012 12:50 wassbix wrote: BW nostalgia argument is the most tiring shit ever, its not nostalgia when the last BW match was less than 24 hours go and the next one in few hours (Fantasy gon win)
Starcraft 2 has potential if Blizzard is willing to listen. HotS will be the make or break point of the game. It has a good following world wide and if they can turn it more into BW it can be the next great RTS. As it is today, the star leagues are there, the teamleagues, Kespa etc is all there. But if it isn't nurtured a lot of people will jump ship. The multiplayer aspect should've been finalized a long time ago. Tweaking and patching just turns more people away because you're manipulating the game instead of leaving it to the players. Fix it and gtfo. You've done your part, Blizzard. BW might be more fun to watch and play, but it's dead as far as I can see. Last Pro League and Starleague are on the horizon. Online play between amateurs is 1/3 of WC3. BW is not an option to SC2s faults.
On May 30 2012 09:04 OptimusYale wrote: I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
Ever consider the foreigners closing themselves by not playing BW simply because they feel that they could never catch up to the South Koreans?
KeSPA was always open to foreigners playing; they just need to earn the progamer license. It's up to the foreigners whether they could put in as much effort as a draftee practicing BW.
Me think the difference it would have made if Draco managed to win that courage tournament.
Or Ret.
Or Nony who was the closest afaik
Both Assem and Legionarie actually won it, im quite sure. And at least leg had a quite successful stint with several televised PL matches - he even held a reaver kill record for a while.
This interview maks me sad, I was really, really hoping bw would be forever and when it survived the first year of sc2 I even thought it might have a chance. And I cant agree enough with what the coach says about a top down approach to this thing, trying to convince people to like a game enough to watch it just doesnt make sense.
On May 30 2012 09:04 OptimusYale wrote: I don't know but this just sits wrong with me....It's the embodiment of why bw is phasing out. SK kept BW closed to them, they made it increasingly difficult to get a foreign players which would have helped make BW much more successful in the west, ultimately meaning that foreigners would have ditched sc2 and stuck with bw. Weren't there VERY few foreign entities running BW tournaments?
Ever consider the foreigners closing themselves by not playing BW simply because they feel that they could never catch up to the South Koreans?
KeSPA was always open to foreigners playing; they just need to earn the progamer license. It's up to the foreigners whether they could put in as much effort as a draftee practicing BW.
Me think the difference it would have made if Draco managed to win that courage tournament.
Or Ret.
Didn't Draco get a license from his team? I heard somewhere that he was gonna be on the Proleague roster for Sparkyz for the next season, but he decided to go back to Poland.
It makes two years that i come here on TL. It's my first post and i'm not really good in english. But i really think that...
...This thread should be closed.... I always liked SCBW, but after reading all the BW fans post who insult SC2 all the time... I begin to hate BW: it's not good for the SC community to start hating each other. If BW fans don't want to play/watch SC2: okay, but it's not a reason to offend our passion by troll SC2 fans all the time (here or in the SPL threads).
On May 30 2012 20:16 Wertheron wrote: It makes two years that i come here on TL. It's my first post and i'm not really good in english. But i really think that...
...This thread should be closed.... I always liked SCBW, but after reading all the BW fans post who insult SC2 all the time... I begin to hate BW: it's not good for the SC community to start hating each other. If BW fans don't want to play/watch SC2: okay, but it's not a reason to offend our passion by troll SC2 fans all the time (here or in the SPL threads).
On May 30 2012 20:16 Wertheron wrote: It makes two years that i come here on TL. It's my first post and i'm not really good in english. But i really think that...
...This thread should be closed.... I always liked SCBW, but after reading all the BW fans post who insult SC2 all the time... I begin to hate BW: it's not good for the SC community to start hating each other. If BW fans don't want to play/watch SC2: okay, but it's not a reason to offend our passion by troll SC2 fans all the time (here or in the SPL threads).
Please stop it.
I agree, I respect coach Jung's contribution to the BW scene, but clearly his opinion about SC2 is biased. The tone of this interview is bitter, and so is the discussion in this thread. The same people who said that Flash and Jaedong would never play SC2 are here to tell us that the game is inferior, that it's a bubble market, etc. I'll buy one of those arguments once those dudes are right about something and not just talking out of frustration.
On May 30 2012 20:16 Wertheron wrote: It makes two years that i come here on TL. It's my first post and i'm not really good in english. But i really think that...
...This thread should be closed.... I always liked SCBW, but after reading all the BW fans post who insult SC2 all the time... I begin to hate BW: it's not good for the SC community to start hating each other. If BW fans don't want to play/watch SC2: okay, but it's not a reason to offend our passion by troll SC2 fans all the time (here or in the SPL threads).
Please stop it.
I agree, I respect coach Jung's contribution to the BW scene, but clearly his opinion about SC2 is biased. The tone of this interview is bitter, and so is the discussion in this thread. The same people who said that Flash and Jaedong would never play SC2 are here to tell us that the game is inferior, that it's a bubble market, etc. I'll buy one of those arguments once those dudes are right about something and not just talking out of frustration.
I somehow, regarding my previous post, feel targetted by this comment.
Just to disprove some of what of you guys might think: People saying BW is a harder and better game are not necessarily pure BW fans. I actually started playing RTS'es with War2 and 3 and, even though I played Brood War a long time ago, it was nothing serious, I just knew the scene a little bit but never followed it too much. I actually came back to playing BW in all neutrality because... SC2 made me want to try it again. And I couldn't help but realize how right all of the 'BW groupies' usually are when they argue that the game is miles more interesting. Now I couldn't be less biased, really. And I'd argue that SC2 fans who defend their own scene (which I understand) should try BW out before they're entitled to a valid opinion, cause let's face it, most of them don't know anything about Starcraft 1, and it's a fact of which the opposite is mostly untrue (I indeed know very few BW players who talk about SC2 w/o having played it). Now all of this remains my opinion, I just felt like saying that, having played all of these games equally (BW less than the others, actually) and with no bias involved, I still would choose BW over SC2 ^_^
Just because what he thinks is unpleasant and we don't want it to be true, doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't true and just the bitterness of an old man. For the record, most BW die hards want SC2 to be amazing. It's good, but not amazing...yet. So comments explaining that are rarely hateful or stubborn, but rather constructive criticism from those that want to see the game improve.
Do you think Jung Soo Yeong wants SC2 to fail because it's not as good? Don't be silly. He's clearly passionate about e-sports succeeding. He is just describing how he sees the situation.
Nice article, these types of things should continue to be done to bridge the gap as things move from BW to SC2. If it must be done then at least never forget where it all came from and how it al started and who was there to build it.
On the subject of SC2 being less fun to watch than BW, its ridiculous to argue, because no one will ever change their mind. There are hundreds of easy ways to convince yourself one or the other is true before youd have to actually do any thinking instead of purely feeling your preference.
But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately.
This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion.
This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea.
Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness)
Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself.
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea.
Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness)
Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself.
This is pretty much my opinion in a nutshell. I respect what he has to say, but the nostalgia goggles are set to maximum.
Must be confident in his coaching abilities if he thinks he can win a championship with Bisu, Fantasy, Zero and Stork all on the same team... not to mention playoffs Hoejja
On May 30 2012 20:16 Wertheron wrote: It makes two years that i come here on TL. It's my first post and i'm not really good in english. But i really think that...
...This thread should be closed.... I always liked SCBW, but after reading all the BW fans post who insult SC2 all the time... I begin to hate BW: it's not good for the SC community to start hating each other. If BW fans don't want to play/watch SC2: okay, but it's not a reason to offend our passion by troll SC2 fans all the time (here or in the SPL threads).
Please stop it.
I agree, I respect coach Jung's contribution to the BW scene, but clearly his opinion about SC2 is biased. The tone of this interview is bitter, and so is the discussion in this thread.
God forbid people to actually have an opinion and be unhappy!
And where did you get the part about him _hating_ SC2? SC2 _is_ inferior to BW in many ways, and better in others. BW fans focus on the negative aspects for good reasons, but none of them would actually bother if they didn't care about StarCraft in the first place.
On May 30 2012 23:30 Vul wrote: ... The same people who said that Flash and Jaedong would never play SC2 are here to tell us that the game is inferior, that it's a bubble market, etc. I'll buy one of those arguments once those dudes are right about something and not just talking out of frustration.
Get over yourself. No one's really arguing about anything. You're the one that's bitter in this thread.
On May 30 2012 20:16 Wertheron wrote: It makes two years that i come here on TL. It's my first post and i'm not really good in english. But i really think that...
...This thread should be closed.... I always liked SCBW, but after reading all the BW fans post who insult SC2 all the time... I begin to hate BW: it's not good for the SC community to start hating each other. If BW fans don't want to play/watch SC2: okay, but it's not a reason to offend our passion by troll SC2 fans all the time (here or in the SPL threads).
Please stop it.
I agree, I respect coach Jung's contribution to the BW scene, but clearly his opinion about SC2 is biased. The tone of this interview is bitter, and so is the discussion in this thread. The same people who said that Flash and Jaedong would never play SC2 are here to tell us that the game is inferior, that it's a bubble market, etc. I'll buy one of those arguments once those dudes are right about something and not just talking out of frustration.
I somehow, regarding my previous post, feel targetted by this comment.
Just to disprove some of what of you guys might think: People saying BW is a harder and better game are not necessarily pure BW fans. I actually started playing RTS'es with War2 and 3 and, even though I played Brood War a long time ago, it was nothing serious, I just knew the scene a little bit but never followed it too much. I actually came back to playing BW in all neutrality because... SC2 made me want to try it again. And I couldn't help but realize how right all of the 'BW groupies' usually are when they argue that the game is miles more interesting. Now I couldn't be less biased, really. And I'd argue that SC2 fans who defend their own scene (which I understand) should try BW out before they're entitled to a valid opinion, cause let's face it, most of them don't know anything about Starcraft 1 , and it's a fact of which the opposite is mostly untrue (I indeed know very few BW players who talk about SC2 w/o having played it). Now all of this remains my opinion, I just felt like saying that, having played all of these games equally (BW less than the others, actually) and with no bias involved, I still would choose BW over SC2 ^_^
I used to think War3 was better/harder than BW back in 2004, and I would argue with my friend about this over and over again. I was wrong, I didn't like BW because I didn't have any idea of how the units worked, and because the unit of pathing/graphics. I watched BW for two years ( from time to time) before playing it, when I start to play it I understood a little better how deep and hard the game was. I think that BW was the game who taught me that graphics doesn't matter and that making a game easier is not good.
On May 30 2012 20:16 Wertheron wrote: It makes two years that i come here on TL. It's my first post and i'm not really good in english. But i really think that...
...This thread should be closed.... I always liked SCBW, but after reading all the BW fans post who insult SC2 all the time... I begin to hate BW: it's not good for the SC community to start hating each other. If BW fans don't want to play/watch SC2: okay, but it's not a reason to offend our passion by troll SC2 fans all the time (here or in the SPL threads).
Please stop it.
I agree, I respect coach Jung's contribution to the BW scene, but clearly his opinion about SC2 is biased. The tone of this interview is bitter, and so is the discussion in this thread. The same people who said that Flash and Jaedong would never play SC2 are here to tell us that the game is inferior, that it's a bubble market, etc. I'll buy one of those arguments once those dudes are right about something and not just talking out of frustration.
I somehow, regarding my previous post, feel targetted by this comment.
Just to disprove some of what of you guys might think: People saying BW is a harder and better game are not necessarily pure BW fans. I actually started playing RTS'es with War2 and 3 and, even though I played Brood War a long time ago, it was nothing serious, I just knew the scene a little bit but never followed it too much. I actually came back to playing BW in all neutrality because... SC2 made me want to try it again. And I couldn't help but realize how right all of the 'BW groupies' usually are when they argue that the game is miles more interesting. Now I couldn't be less biased, really. And I'd argue that SC2 fans who defend their own scene (which I understand) should try BW out before they're entitled to a valid opinion, cause let's face it, most of them don't know anything about Starcraft 1 , and it's a fact of which the opposite is mostly untrue (I indeed know very few BW players who talk about SC2 w/o having played it). Now all of this remains my opinion, I just felt like saying that, having played all of these games equally (BW less than the others, actually) and with no bias involved, I still would choose BW over SC2 ^_^
I used to think War3 was better/harder than BW back in 2004, and I would argue with my friend about this over and over again. I was wrong, I didn't like BW because I didn't have any idea of how the units worked, and because the unit of pathing/graphics. I watched BW for two years ( from time to time) before playing it, when I start to play it I understood a little better how deep and hard the game was. I think that BW was the game who taught me that graphics doesn't matter and that making a game easier is not good.
:-) I believe the main thing that makes BW fans angry is that BW is in too many ways a 'one time thing' that we won't ever witness again. The game is so wrongly designed (if you look at it from a modern point of view) that it's actually ridiculous, the pathing is horrible, a lot of the units are absurdly bugged (dragoons, reavers... ), the obstacles to balancing the game seemed impossible to overcome... And that's precisely what makes BW's perfect balance so miraculous, it doesn't rely on Blizzard's job but on the bugs themselves (larvaes spawn pos, muta stack etc... ), they were exploited, almost 'created' in a way by the community. What's to note is that this in my opinion boils down to Koreans' frenzy to always try to play the game in a new way as much as to sheer and simple luck... And I'm afraid this gigantic stroke luck won't happen again. The fact that no other RTS game can currently pretend having reached a comparable level of balance and expertise stands as evidence... The most worrying and fitting example would be TFT, which Blizzard has been trying to balance out with their own methods (that they're currently using for SC2) for seven years... They failed, they failed miserably.
All of this added to the fact that BW is, without a doubt, the hardest competitive game that's ever existed (again, try it out ;-), and you get millions of very bitter elitist fans whose point of view I can't help but respect and agree with. No matter how much I like SC2 and want SC2 to succeed.
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea.
Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness)
Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself.
Why again are games tied to technology again? In my, and many others, games are getting worse not better.
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea.
Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness)
Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself.
Why again are games tied to technology again? In my, and many others, games are getting worse not better.
Games are tied to technology but sports are not. They should stop calling it eSports if they think that way, it's just misguided.
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea.
Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness)
Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself.
Why again are games tied to technology again? In my, and many others, games are getting worse not better.
Games are tied to technology but sports are not. They should stop calling it eSports if they think that way, it's just misguided.
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea.
Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness)
Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself.
Why again are games tied to technology again? In my, and many others, games are getting worse not better.
Games are tied to technology but sports are not. They should stop calling it eSports if they think that way, it's just misguided.
I mean why do games have to get more graphics as the technology gets better? Obviously video-games are tied to technology. Technology is so insane nowadays we've entered the shittiest time in gaming graphics... the 'realism' era. It is truly a horrible thing. Keep game graphics simple and creative. Things in games no longer 'pop out' because everyone cares about things being realistic. It makes things a mess, honestly.
It matters if you want to expand past a niche audience and make eSports big in the West. The sense I get from most BW fans is that they don't care. That's fine, but realize that many of us DO care. And that fundamental difference in perspective is why there'll never be peace on these boards.
On May 31 2012 23:54 Faveokatro wrote: It matters if you want to expand past a niche audience and make eSports big in the West. The sense I get from most BW fans is that they don't care. That's fine, but realize that many of us DO care. And that fundamental difference in perspective is why there'll never be peace on these boards.
I don't know I don't remember sc2 being an exclusively word as e-sports I thought in general any competitive game is e-sports in definition . Well basing on your point that bw fan's don't give a damn about sc2 you are maybe right . From my own perspective I was one of those guys getting hyped of "Hell it's about time " waited and beg my friends for a beta key to play sc2 . Thought the game was interesting until I realized that everything is shiny and my tanks sucks in sc2 . Played a few more games and most of my friends who played bw was like " okay game is 3d, terran units looks like a toy, this is bad I can't micro my units like I can do in sc2 for example mutas .
I totally agree with them and went back to bw and yeah there you have your answer . I actually cared about sc2 since I was a fan of starcraft of bw and I thought I would be able to enjoy this new game as much as sc bw however I am disappointed with it . Any way sc2 has two more expansions to improve the game and until than many of you would have just slap that reasoning of "Give it more time " to my face even though .I have already not like the game and I will concede and move on because there is nothing much to say about and discuss any more.
It is laughable how some people in this forum say that only a few Koreans know about "e-sports", first and all the only country where theres an organization supported by the government is in Korea, the only country where video games have some longevity (crucial in any real sport) is in Korea, the only place where there are organized professional teams under a structure is Korea, etc,etc, if the idea of e-sports is 100k people peak watching a stream in the most important tournaments, then e-sports have no future.
The last batch of posts completely misses the point. You talk about technology, but the only thing from a spectator's point of view that changed with SC2 is the graphics.
The coaches point is that graphics may be a necessary upgrade, but they don't automatically make a good esport. For that, you need the fundamental elements, which SC2 still falls short on as of now.
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea.
Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness)
Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself.
Why again are games tied to technology again? In my, and many others, games are getting worse not better.
Games are tied to technology but sports are not. They should stop calling it eSports if they think that way, it's just misguided.
Because its not sport, its commercial product forced into competitive frame. Well it still makes it sport in sense of competition but you get the idea.
When the times will come when publishers will stop relying on copies sold as some indicator of success but rather focus on user-base. Activision in their current mindset will never release an Esport game in full meaning of the word. . Give a product for 5 cent make people play it for 20 years, disregard developer/publisher ambitions and start evolving the term of computer gaming and we will see.
Look at Riot they only scratched the idea of this yet so many SC2 fans is screaming how its possible that LoL has so many stream viewers. Riot will never win any award for most innovative game nor will they bank their investment ASAP (sales sales! how many boxes! marketing). But those types of investment build legacy of "Esports"
Valve was eaten because they tried to monetize it with CS Source, now we will see how Blizzard will fare, still they have 2 boxes to sale until we can judge so they already succeded aye?
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
But you seem to forget that BW passed the test of time. It actually became a real sport in one nation, because people didn't care about the technology behind the game (i.e. graphics engine, modern ai that does everything for you, etc) or about maximally monetizing it. I think of all the competitive games out there, BW and Quake are the games whose skill cap mostly depends on humans, not the technology behind it. Every now and then you get some prodigy of a player that seems to push the boundaries of what was thought to be possible to a whole new level.
Sure, the AI in SC2 might be miles ahead of BW, sure the graphics are sweet, sure the game is designed to have as little as possible of the "useless" micro (how SC2 crowd tend to call it). At the same time, it reduced the amount of what actual players have to do in order to surpass every obstacle ahead of them and in my opinion, the skill cap now solely depends on future Blizzard balance patches.
My final thoughts would be, even though eSport exists it will never again transcend the boundaries of the virtual world, like BW did, specially not on foreign scene. Why? Well, because foreign corporations that stand behind those tournaments, etc, do not really care about anything else then marketing their products, and i.e. Intel (or a similar company) can not market their latest products on old games. That's why we have every 1-2years a new eSports flagship. BW was a thing that happened in right time and right place, and it exploded and created legendary players and stories, heroes and villains, and that's why I love it. Don't be fooled, SC2 foreign scene will last for 2-3 more years and then the corporations will turn to a new game that they can use best to promote their graphic chips, processors, etc. eSport (or should I say competitive gaming, that would be a much more better term) won't fade away anytime soon, but your favorite games behind it will, and you'll feel then just like we (BW crowd) feel now. All there is left to hope for is that a new BW disturbance in the force occurs. Unfortunately, I think that we will have to wait too long for another game to create such a mass effect and transcends the boundaries of eSport and becomes a real sport, like BW did.
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV
what I said in my post is about foreign scene, which is normal. foreign scene always rotates the older games out after a short period of time in favor of new games.
On June 01 2012 02:25 Garmer wrote: but the expansion make SC2 in somw way, a new game....but it's true that a decline in the community is possible, even with the expansions
Hasn't there already been a large decline in the community? Most likely an upswing will happen with each add-on, yet I personally think each time it will fall a bit further until we end with a scene like foreign BW or AoE 2.
On May 31 2012 13:00 RaiKageRyu wrote: This interview once again shows that very few Koreans understand what an E-Sport actually is. He talks about the root of this and that but fails to realize E-Sports is inescapably tied to the technology it runs on. As technogly advances, the games need to keep up with current times to stay relevant. BW was always fated to fade away in time. League of Legends is looking to take its place and it too will face the same fate someday. SC2 did not kill BW, it gave Starcraft as a whole, a chance to pass down its legacy.
Also, this ex-coach's statements reinforce some sentiments that Koreans view BW and E-Sports as synonymous with each other and are ignorant of the history and scene outside of Korea.
Korea will lose its position as the mecca of E-Sports if they continue to fight with each other like the sick men of East Asia and continue with a too conservative approach to pick up games that aren't Korean made. (The season of Hybrid Proleague came as result of this reluctance and indecisiveness)
Korea says it wants to be the beacon of E-Sports but it seems obvious people like this coach and Kespa want to stay stuck in the past and have no clear vision of the future of E-Sports itself.
IMO your definition of how technology is tied to esport is mostly wrong and partially right. Key word "Sport." When you think of sports you think of the people aka the fans. If there arent that much fans you as an sport lose. Remember legacy arent suppose to be passed down, people are suppose to create legacy for the game.
The coach's thought of BW and esport as synonymous is more than highly true, because when koreans think of esport the first thing that pops in their mind will always be BW.
Korea will always be the Mecca of Esports as long as they produce and obtain the strongest players. Just cuz they fight doesnt mean jack squat.
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV
what I said in my post is about foreign scene, which is normal. foreign scene always rotates the older games out after a short period of time in favor of new games.
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV
what I said in my post is about foreign scene, which is normal. foreign scene always rotates the older games out after a short period of time in favor of new games.
Counter Strike 1.6 would prove you wrong.
cs1.6 have their own private millionaire called arbalet behind them. :>
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV
what I said in my post is about foreign scene, which is normal. foreign scene always rotates the older games out after a short period of time in favor of new games.
Counter Strike 1.6 would prove you wrong.
The real Counter Strikes (not CSS) development is very much like Brood Wars imo. The games are very similar in the sens that they conquered the scene by them selves, they were not hyped up by companies and they became more than just a niche interest for gamers (at least that was the case for Counter Strike here in Sweden and Starcraft in Korea).
On May 31 2012 03:01 captainshards wrote: Nice article, these types of things should continue to be done to bridge the gap as things move from BW to SC2. If it must be done then at least never forget where it all came from and how it al started and who was there to build it.
On the subject of SC2 being less fun to watch than BW, its ridiculous to argue, because no one will ever change their mind. There are hundreds of easy ways to convince yourself one or the other is true before youd have to actually do any thinking instead of purely feeling your preference.
But, a minor rant here, ive noticed so much use of the whole "objective/subjective" argument to validate ANYTHING and ANY opinion online. It seems as if people learn the definitions of those words and run rampant trying to teach the world a lesson in logic. But what never gets said is that sometimes when you use a theory or a concept, its totally great until you realize that life and reality isnt always summed up by theory and concept. There are realities. You can say al day long that there is no right and wrong its all opinion but we are trying to live in a society that functions. A "tool". And a tool can be judged at how good of a tool it is and objectivity/subjectivity loses some of its shine in these types of discussions. You and i both can argue which hammer is better but in the end there is a chance one hammer will break while the other does not. Therefore that is a better hammer. A better tool. Why? Because it does a better job of putting nails in. It doesnt matter opinion, either the nail goes in or does not. One could argue that the elements of BW just happen to have more tendency to create the types of situations that lead to surprise or tension in the average human beings mind. Therefore it is a better tool for that job. If you have two calculators and one gives you back a wrong answer every random 20 calculations that is a worse tool and it doesnt matter what your opinion is because that particular tool is designed to calculate accurately.
This is not a point im making to argue for or against BW vs SC2 because i personally dont care anymore which one is better. Nor do i know in the end which game will be "better". Im not even remotely qualified to predict the future of this game. I hoe for it to be better because i like RTS games and i like high level play. I just get tired of "objective/subjective" arguments that are treated as the end all of logic because they arent. A tool can be judged. Arguing which game is better and feeling satisfied that there is no answer is worse for the game than questioning what actually might be better in either one and trying to reach for that goal to make SC2 the best tool it can possibly be to entertain human beings. If you cite subjectivity etc and call it a day you never move beyond that and you never really solve any problems that may exist. The only thing you do that way is feel better about your own opinion.
Thanks for that minor rant, I think it's totally spot on and many people should read it.
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV
The thing about expansions is that in the competitive sense, they will not be "expansions", they will essentially be new games. So while the title "Starcraft 2" will technically last longer than 2-3 years, each new expansion will be a hard reset on design, balance, overall features, everything. You won't have one game lasting 9-10 years, you will have 3 games lasting 3 years at best.
In order for the game to truly develop, and players to show high level of play, the game needs to remain virtually the same for a long period of time (the constant patching alone is problematic, let alone the drastic changes in expansions). Expansions will not help competitive SC2 last longer, if anything they'll hurt it. Blizzard is pretty much the only party that will benefit from SC2 expansions.
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV
Yes, which is called artifical longevity. If it weren't for HotS coming out so soon then SC2 would dwindle very fast. Good thing the beta is only a few weeks away.
As for the other guy talking about technology. The reason why a lot of games are still prevalent today is because of their gameplay first and foremost.
The biggest problem Blizzard faces right now is the fact they have one too many hands in the cookie jar.
On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: Right now I find SC2 fun but not as fun as BW. For SC2. I thought the game would be easy but it's not. The concept of micro, macro, and mindgame is all still there....even at a lower skill ceiling. BW was a lucky accident that has much more depth and flair because the units are designed to be more exciting and powerful. I prefer BW because it's a superior game. SC2 disappoints me because the units in the game are uncreative compared to BW. Why the fuck would they remove exciting units like reaver and vulture? Why would they remove mutalisk stacking/micro? Why did they make hydra that can shoot ground only and call it roach? Why in the world would they make a marine2 and call it marauder????? Units like reavers and vultures are what made BW so fun to watch and they remove it for no apparent reason. stupid idiots.
I think they asked 100 people in the company to make sc2. They couldn't decide on the design for most if not all units so they just "average" out everyone's idea and so as a result we get nothing but bland units because it's the only way that they can get people to agree with it. It's a safe way to design a video game. I'm sure someone at blizzard right now would make sc2 as good as bw but his opinion is probably not getting through simply because there is a committee. BW was clearly made by a group of genius so they don't have to cave to other people's approval. I know many game designers IRL and most of them are fucking retarded when it come to video game designs itself. Yes, they are good at the technical part but that's about it. Most of these people are not what we call "gamers" they are nerds that happen to play video games.
I look at HOTS units and I think they are even more retardedly designed than the units in sc2. Hell, they are even removing units from sc2 to make room for some units in HOTS. what the fuck?
don't get me wrong, sc2 is still a pretty good game for today's standard(modern warfare 2.5 anyone?). But comparing sc2 to bw is like comparing mainstream music from today to the 60s or 70s.
P.S. I'm still glad that SC2 is a go-to-game sport for nerds. but just like sport fans in real life, the fans usually don't understand what the fuck is really going on in the game. So honestly it doesn't matter if the game is boring or not because the viewers can't tell what is good or bad. For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad?
I was nodding with approval to everything you said til you mentioned FF7. Now I'm just confused
On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: Right now I find SC2 fun but not as fun as BW. For SC2. I thought the game would be easy but it's not. The concept of micro, macro, and mindgame is all still there....even at a lower skill ceiling. BW was a lucky accident that has much more depth and flair because the units are designed to be more exciting and powerful. I prefer BW because it's a superior game. SC2 disappoints me because the units in the game are uncreative compared to BW. Why the fuck would they remove exciting units like reaver and vulture? Why would they remove mutalisk stacking/micro? Why did they make hydra that can shoot ground only and call it roach? Why in the world would they make a marine2 and call it marauder????? Units like reavers and vultures are what made BW so fun to watch and they remove it for no apparent reason. stupid idiots.
I think they asked 100 people in the company to make sc2. They couldn't decide on the design for most if not all units so they just "average" out everyone's idea and so as a result we get nothing but bland units because it's the only way that they can get people to agree with it. It's a safe way to design a video game. I'm sure someone at blizzard right now would make sc2 as good as bw but his opinion is probably not getting through simply because there is a committee. BW was clearly made by a group of genius so they don't have to cave to other people's approval. I know many game designers IRL and most of them are fucking retarded when it come to video game designs itself. Yes, they are good at the technical part but that's about it. Most of these people are not what we call "gamers" they are nerds that happen to play video games.
I look at HOTS units and I think they are even more retardedly designed than the units in sc2. Hell, they are even removing units from sc2 to make room for some units in HOTS. what the fuck?
don't get me wrong, sc2 is still a pretty good game for today's standard(modern warfare 2.5 anyone?). But comparing sc2 to bw is like comparing mainstream music from today to the 60s or 70s.
P.S. I'm still glad that SC2 is a go-to-game sport for nerds. but just like sport fans in real life, the fans usually don't understand what the fuck is really going on in the game. So honestly it doesn't matter if the game is boring or not because the viewers can't tell what is good or bad. For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad?
I was nodding with approval to everything you said til you mentioned FF7. Now I'm just confused
I had trouble admitting it, but he has a very good point.
On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad?
Epic post king dt you are right on the money. I like to call that the "Dane Cook" effect. I have young reletives who never saw stand up comedy until they saw Dane Cook. Having no one to compare to they thought he was the funniest comedian ever. When I tried to show them Eddie Murphy Raw they refused to watch it because it was "too old" and "he looks stupid in a purple suit"
A view of bw vs sc2 In terms of Spectatorship from a sc2 player/spectator: He raises a fair point about SC2 not being up to standard of BW and fair enough. I think Blizzard are going to have to make some risks and drastic changes to sc2 in the up and coming 2 expansions to make it at the same level BW is in terms of aesthetics. and remember bw has been out what? 13 years? and arguably became an esports around 3rd year of release. (I think). Starcraft 2 is only in it's second year. give it time and let it mature I seriously hope sc2 can live up to it's predecessors name because so far it's not although it is a great game.
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV
The thing about expansions is that in the competitive sense, they will not be "expansions", they will essentially be new games. So while the title "Starcraft 2" will technically last longer than 2-3 years, each new expansion will be a hard reset on design, balance, overall features, everything. You won't have one game lasting 9-10 years, you will have 3 games lasting 3 years at best.
In order for the game to truly develop, and players to show high level of play, the game needs to remain virtually the same for a long period of time (the constant patching alone is problematic, let alone the drastic changes in expansions). Expansions will not help competitive SC2 last longer, if anything they'll hurt it. Blizzard is pretty much the only party that will benefit from SC2 expansions.
Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
On June 01 2012 01:41 Garmer wrote: SC2 will last much more than 2-3 years, remembers there are still two expansions, plus the game won't die before at least 2-3 years after LOTV
Yes, which is called artifical longevity. If it weren't for HotS coming out so soon then SC2 would dwindle very fast. Good thing the beta is only a few weeks away.
I think this is one of the reasons SC2 fans get heated in these flame wars; the idea that we don't really like the game.
On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: Right now I find SC2 fun but not as fun as BW. For SC2. I thought the game would be easy but it's not. The concept of micro, macro, and mindgame is all still there....even at a lower skill ceiling. BW was a lucky accident that has much more depth and flair because the units are designed to be more exciting and powerful. I prefer BW because it's a superior game. SC2 disappoints me because the units in the game are uncreative compared to BW. Why the fuck would they remove exciting units like reaver and vulture? Why would they remove mutalisk stacking/micro? Why did they make hydra that can shoot ground only and call it roach? Why in the world would they make a marine2 and call it marauder????? Units like reavers and vultures are what made BW so fun to watch and they remove it for no apparent reason. stupid idiots.
I think they asked 100 people in the company to make sc2. They couldn't decide on the design for most if not all units so they just "average" out everyone's idea and so as a result we get nothing but bland units because it's the only way that they can get people to agree with it. It's a safe way to design a video game. I'm sure someone at blizzard right now would make sc2 as good as bw but his opinion is probably not getting through simply because there is a committee. BW was clearly made by a group of genius so they don't have to cave to other people's approval. I know many game designers IRL and most of them are fucking retarded when it come to video game designs itself. Yes, they are good at the technical part but that's about it. Most of these people are not what we call "gamers" they are nerds that happen to play video games.
I look at HOTS units and I think they are even more retardedly designed than the units in sc2. Hell, they are even removing units from sc2 to make room for some units in HOTS. what the fuck?
don't get me wrong, sc2 is still a pretty good game for today's standard(modern warfare 2.5 anyone?). But comparing sc2 to bw is like comparing mainstream music from today to the 60s or 70s.
P.S. I'm still glad that SC2 is a go-to-game sport for nerds. but just like sport fans in real life, the fans usually don't understand what the fuck is really going on in the game. So honestly it doesn't matter if the game is boring or not because the viewers can't tell what is good or bad. For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad?
I was nodding with approval to everything you said til you mentioned FF7. Now I'm just confused
I had trouble admitting it, but he has a very good point.
FF7 is the best game ever when you're 15 and don't realize the plot makes no goddamn sense, and the Materia system is an amazing character customization tool, with only FF Tactics surpassing it in any RPG I've seen before or since.
A better comparison might be Final Fantasy IX. That game seems to have aged well, but how much you liked it depended a lot on whether you'd played Final Fantasy VI first. But I'm a Suikoden II hipster, anyway.
I'm hoping that by the time LotV comes out, it includes another unit or two like the oracle, and the comparison starts being Mega Man 2 vs Mega Man X
On June 01 2012 22:37 Jumperer wrote: For most people, SC2 is their first e-sport game so of course they are going to love it. It's kind of like how FF7 is many people's favorite RPG game even though the game is shit. They've never played any RPG before so how can they know if it's good or bad?
Epic post king dt you are right on the money. I like to call that the "Dane Cook" effect. I have young reletives who never saw stand up comedy until they saw Dane Cook. Having no one to compare to they thought he was the funniest comedian ever. When I tried to show them Eddie Murphy Raw they refused to watch it because it was "too old" and "he looks stupid in a purple suit"
I watched BW for years, and got like 500 games on ICCUP (while staying in E because I suuuucked, and I like SC2 T_T
On June 02 2012 03:13 AsymptoticClimax wrote: A view of bw vs sc2 In terms of Spectatorship from a sc2 player/spectator: He raises a fair point about SC2 not being up to standard of BW and fair enough. I think Blizzard are going to have to make some risks and drastic changes to sc2 in the up and coming 2 expansions to make it at the same level BW is in terms of aesthetics. and remember bw has been out what? 13 years? and arguably became an esports around 3rd year of release. (I think). Starcraft 2 is only in it's second year. give it time and let it mature I seriously hope sc2 can live up to it's predecessors name because so far it's not although it is a great game.
So you say SC2 right now is bad but we still should watch/play it cause someday it might be good?. i really never get this "give it time" thing :D
When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important.
When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important.
The most important feature to me that was actually was remedied in sc2 was the "find match" button although it was never a necessity but merely a wishful thinking. Sc2 is really stale in comparison to broodwar and that's still stand's truth today . Banelings ? boring . Mothership ? screw that give me my arbiters any time . Stalkers ? bull shit Dumb dragoons x100 any day than those weak spineless stalker at least dragoons are willing to take the bullet and die honourably compared to stalkers who just blink away from battle because they suck.
I saw most of the IPL highlights and what can I say rolling banelings in to scv must be interesting because who is that commentator ? Cat Pajamas right ? was screaming omg omg omg over such a interesting move by the other player . Nope I don't want to deal with starcraft any more if anything playing torchlight and not reading about anything to do with sc2 will make my days more better.
On June 02 2012 03:49 Ribbon wrote: Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
Even if it is - and there is NO way anyone can guess it will be at this point - it doesn't matter. It'll be a completely new game to learn with new units, new builds, new strategies, and everything the players learned and new so far will be pretty much meaningless.
RTS games naturally grow and improve over time, because how good the game is essentially depends on the extent to which the players have mastered it. They can't master it if it keeps changing all the time. A new game is always worse than an old one in the sense that it will inevitably produce worse gameplay for a long time. And just when HoTS reaches the level of WoL, they will put out yet another expansion and you have to go through the same process again.
On June 02 2012 03:49 Ribbon wrote: There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
Game was perfectly playable since after the Khaydarin removal, and there was no reason to patch other than to appease the masses and provide free instant gratification to players whose' races were struggling for a month or two.
In SC2, Blizzard does all the work for the players that BoxeR, oov, Savior, Bisu etc had to do for their races in BW (by improving in skill and coming up with original solutions and tricks to overcome strategic difficulties). In SC2, if your race sucks, Blizzard will give you a new toy to play with and make another race suck for a while so you can feel good for a few months. -_-
FF6 and Chrono Trigger are the best RPGs I've ever played. Both had stunning plots, deep characters and amazing gameplay, something we don't see anymore in newer games.
About SC2, there is nothing left to say, it's just a bad game and will die few years after the last expansion. About eSports, LoL is taking over and no one can stop it. About BW, best RTS ever made, killed by Savior and Blizzard.
this was definitely an eye opener, he seems like one of the people who really grew Korean E-Sports back in the early days before noobs like me even knew about Starcraft.
When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important.
The most important feature to me that was actually was remedied in sc2 was the "find match" button although it was never a necessity but merely a wishful thinking. Sc2 is really stale in comparison to broodwar and that's still stand's truth today . Banelings ? boring . Mothership ? screw that give me my arbiters any time . Stalkers ? bull shit Dumb dragoons x100 any day than those weak spineless stalker at least dragoons are willing to take the bullet and die honourably compared to stalkers who just blink away from battle because they suck.
I saw most of the IPL highlights and what can I say rolling banelings in to scv must be interesting because who is that commentator ? Cat Pajamas right ? was screaming omg omg omg over such a interesting move by the other player . Nope I don't want to deal with starcraft any more if anything playing torchlight and not reading about anything to do with sc2 will make my days more better.
And this is why we had the argument about objectivity/subjectivity in the first place...
Seriously, a comment like this is one of the most irritating thing ever. You find SC2 boring and BW more fun. Fine, but don't state it as a fact because it's just your and BW's forum goers opinion. There are many more people who find SC2 more fun and this kind of post would only draw a flame war. If you hate that much, keep it to your self and go post on BW only forum that is not in TL. And don't say don't come to BW section because now PL is also a hybrid league so there's a lot related news in BW section that people might be curious to read.
On June 03 2012 01:09 fabiano wrote: FF6 and Chrono Trigger are the best RPGs I've ever played. Both had stunning plots, deep characters and amazing gameplay, something we don't see anymore in newer games.
FF6 is honestly pretty overrated, though I wasn't a kid when I first played it. It's good, but it's not THAT good.
When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important.
The most important feature to me that was actually was remedied in sc2 was the "find match" button although it was never a necessity but merely a wishful thinking. Sc2 is really stale in comparison to broodwar and that's still stand's truth today . Banelings ? boring . Mothership ? screw that give me my arbiters any time . Stalkers ? bull shit Dumb dragoons x100 any day than those weak spineless stalker at least dragoons are willing to take the bullet and die honourably compared to stalkers who just blink away from battle because they suck.
I saw most of the IPL highlights and what can I say rolling banelings in to scv must be interesting because who is that commentator ? Cat Pajamas right ? was screaming omg omg omg over such a interesting move by the other player . Nope I don't want to deal with starcraft any more if anything playing torchlight and not reading about anything to do with sc2 will make my days more better.
And this is why we had the argument about objectivity/subjectivity in the first place...
Seriously, a comment like this is one of the most irritating thing ever. You find SC2 boring and BW more fun. Fine, but don't state it as a fact because it's just your and BW's forum goers opinion. There are many more people who find SC2 more fun and this kind of post would only draw a flame war. If you hate that much, keep it to your self and go post on BW only forum that is not in TL. And don't say don't come to BW section because now PL is also a hybrid league so there's a lot related news in BW section that people might be curious to read.
I will do whatever I want on the internet neither you or anyone is going to stop me.
If SC2 is so great, why are people taking so much effort right now into changing it? The FRB initiative for example. And Barrin's post on that links several other threads that have been spawned over the last two years. Threads that compare SC2 to a game that is 12 years old and a pro scene that has existed since 2002.
If you were a designer of a product, any product, let's say a car, it would be pretty freaking humiliating if people kept coming back to you drawing comparisons to the old car, a car that is 12 years old. It would seem even foolish to say that people still like the old car better since they kept modding it and tweaking it for the last 12 years. Would it not be possible to take a first hand look at what those modifications did, and send those ideas to your R&D department?
Yet, that's precisely what a lot of BW fans think Blizzard has done. Blizzard seems more or less oblivious to the fact that a BW scene existed, or what components of BW made BW great. Hell, when SC2 was announced, it was in freaking 2007. 2007 was the year Bisu took down Saviour, and the developments since then are probably what shaped modern BW to what it was today. It's not like the BW scene didn't know what macro was yet.
I would even venture to say that custom made maps in SC2 have made much, much more significant progress to the development of its competitive scene than all the patches Blizzard have made. Would it matter nowadays if you played with patch 15 on friggin dessert oasis or steppes of war?
And with this "SC2 is leaps and bounds ahead of any other non-BW RTS", I'm going to tell you right now that there are pretty much no other RTSes that have been released in the past 5 or so years (Like CoH was released in 2006, and DoWII is pretty much more or less a rehash of that with different models). SC2's only real peer is BW, and its the only game that anyone (especially Blizzard) should really take into account when comparing standards of quality. The BW pro scene is dead, but with the way SC2 is now, people will be drawing comparisons between BW and SC2 till SC2 dies.
If SC2 fans want people to shut up about BW, then get SC2 to change or something. Write to Browder and tell him how much you hate deathballs. Stop whining about TvP imbalance and actually try and understand what the pros are trying to do , even if it involves being 20x more skillful.
On June 03 2012 12:02 Nazza wrote: If SC2 is so great, why are people taking so much effort right now into changing it?
Because you can love a game, think it's good, and still realize it's possible for it to be better than it is?
On June 03 2012 12:02 Nazza wrote: If SC2 fans want people to shut up about BW, then get SC2 to change or something. Write to Browder and tell him how much you hate deathballs. Stop whining about TvP imbalance and actually try and understand what the pros are trying to do , even if it involves being 20x more skillful.
This is actually something more people need to do, and I really wish a lot of the anti-SC2 arguments in the BW forum were being made in the Bnet forums, where they might do some good.
When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Nope, players got better at the game. The only thing that got better in SC2 is balance, which is not really important.
The most important feature to me that was actually was remedied in sc2 was the "find match" button although it was never a necessity but merely a wishful thinking. Sc2 is really stale in comparison to broodwar and that's still stand's truth today . Banelings ? boring . Mothership ? screw that give me my arbiters any time . Stalkers ? bull shit Dumb dragoons x100 any day than those weak spineless stalker at least dragoons are willing to take the bullet and die honourably compared to stalkers who just blink away from battle because they suck.
I saw most of the IPL highlights and what can I say rolling banelings in to scv must be interesting because who is that commentator ? Cat Pajamas right ? was screaming omg omg omg over such a interesting move by the other player . Nope I don't want to deal with starcraft any more if anything playing torchlight and not reading about anything to do with sc2 will make my days more better.
And this is why we had the argument about objectivity/subjectivity in the first place...
Seriously, a comment like this is one of the most irritating thing ever. You find SC2 boring and BW more fun. Fine, but don't state it as a fact because it's just your and BW's forum goers opinion. There are many more people who find SC2 more fun and this kind of post would only draw a flame war. If you hate that much, keep it to your self and go post on BW only forum that is not in TL. And don't say don't come to BW section because now PL is also a hybrid league so there's a lot related news in BW section that people might be curious to read.
What BW only forum? Just like he can post whatever he wants, you too can choose to ignore it, it's not hard.
Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
So basically you built a pro scene around a game still in its beta stages. Definitely has nothing to do with the game being named starcraft.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: So? It's not trying to copy BW, it's trying to do its own thing, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other non-BW RTS in that regard.
Your assumption. Maybe it has something to do with Sc2 having the name starcraft in it giving rise to these thoughts. You ask us to give sc2 concessions yet you just put down other games without thought.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Anyday now...
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And even then, I was a lot more interested, excited, and hyped to be watching the last GSL finals in a hotel lobby at 7am on my vacation.
Seriously this part of you changes on a weakly basis. It is inconsistent. On some weeks you say BW has no story, on others you say sc2 not at the level of BW yet, on some weeks you say Lalush explains what sc2 is missing now you say you enjoy sc2 more? Hell you didn't seem to know what moving shot was a few weeks ago.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And if you think I'm retarded or whatever, that's cool. But I'm starting to realize that I'd kind of prefer MVP vs Parting to Flash vs Bisu. And I imagine you disagree
All the hype from sc2 was derived from the proscene(not casual scene) in korea. The thing is sc2 doesn't have the elements that made sc2 fun(moving shot etc). Now normally no one would give a shit BUT the name sc2 is killing BW.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And the fact that HotS has the Viper (good unit) and Oracle (fucking great unit) in it isn't going to change your mind. But it makes me kind of excited!
We learn our lesson first time round, don't get overhyped because blizzard isn't what they use to be. Do you even remember the "Do you really want chat channels?" incident? Blizzard is up themselves and have lost the plot completely. Wc3 isn't even balanced and they've been trying for yrs.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: That BW died sucks. That it was replaced with a game you hate also sucks. Go beat up Savior. But SC2 did not kill BW, and certainly not SC2 fans.
As a great man once said, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was named starcraft 2.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: This is actually something more people need to do, and I really wish a lot of the anti-SC2 arguments in the BW forum were being made in the Bnet forums, where they might do some good.
We tried and they don't care. How short is your memory seriously.
Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
So basically you built a pro scene around a game still in its beta stages. Definitely has nothing to do with the game being named starcraft.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: So? It's not trying to copy BW, it's trying to do its own thing, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other non-BW RTS in that regard.
Your assumption. Maybe it has something to do with Sc2 having the name starcraft in it giving rise to these thoughts. You ask us to give sc2 concessions yet you just put down other games without thought.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And even then, I was a lot more interested, excited, and hyped to be watching the last GSL finals in a hotel lobby at 7am on my vacation.
Seriously this part of you changes on a weakly basis. It is inconsistent. On some weeks you say BW has no story, on others you say sc2 not at the level of BW yet, on some weeks you say Lalush explains what sc2 is missing now you say you enjoy sc2 more? Hell you didn't seem to know what moving shot was a few weeks ago.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And if you think I'm retarded or whatever, that's cool. But I'm starting to realize that I'd kind of prefer MVP vs Parting to Flash vs Bisu. And I imagine you disagree
All the hype from sc2 was derived from the proscene(not casual scene) in korea. The thing is sc2 doesn't have the elements that made sc2 fun(moving shot etc). Now normally no one would give a shit BUT the name sc2 is killing BW.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And the fact that HotS has the Viper (good unit) and Oracle (fucking great unit) in it isn't going to change your mind. But it makes me kind of excited!
We learn our lesson first time round, don't get overhyped because blizzard isn't what they use to be. Do you even remember the "Do you really want chat channels?" incident? Blizzard is up themselves and have lost the plot completely. Wc3 isn't even balanced and they've been trying for yrs.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: That BW died sucks. That it was replaced with a game you hate also sucks. Go beat up Savior. But SC2 did not kill BW, and certainly not SC2 fans.
As a great man once said, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was named starcraft 2.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: This is actually something more people need to do, and I really wish a lot of the anti-SC2 arguments in the BW forum were being made in the Bnet forums, where they might do some good.
We tried and they don't care. How short is your memory seriously.
Samurai, "If you see a troll post, report and ignore."
I originally wrote a really angry response, but then I deleted it and ran in place for a few minutes while listening to the Space Jam OST instead! Now I'm calm, and instead of saying something that might get me banned, I instead increased the fabulousness of my abs!
Anyway, I like both games, and foreign BW is going to be awesome and I intend to help build it the end.
Actually, you know what? I feel better about all this after using my anger productively. Let forget SC2 vs BW argument #100,000 and just work out. I'm cool with that.
Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
So basically you built a pro scene around a game still in its beta stages. Definitely has nothing to do with the game being named starcraft.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: So? It's not trying to copy BW, it's trying to do its own thing, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other non-BW RTS in that regard.
Your assumption. Maybe it has something to do with Sc2 having the name starcraft in it giving rise to these thoughts. You ask us to give sc2 concessions yet you just put down other games without thought.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Anyday now...
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And even then, I was a lot more interested, excited, and hyped to be watching the last GSL finals in a hotel lobby at 7am on my vacation.
Seriously this part of you changes on a weakly basis. It is inconsistent. On some weeks you say BW has no story, on others you say sc2 not at the level of BW yet, on some weeks you say Lalush explains what sc2 is missing now you say you enjoy sc2 more? Hell you didn't seem to know what moving shot was a few weeks ago.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And if you think I'm retarded or whatever, that's cool. But I'm starting to realize that I'd kind of prefer MVP vs Parting to Flash vs Bisu. And I imagine you disagree
All the hype from sc2 was derived from the proscene(not casual scene) in korea. The thing is sc2 doesn't have the elements that made sc2 fun(moving shot etc). Now normally no one would give a shit BUT the name sc2 is killing BW.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And the fact that HotS has the Viper (good unit) and Oracle (fucking great unit) in it isn't going to change your mind. But it makes me kind of excited!
We learn our lesson first time round, don't get overhyped because blizzard isn't what they use to be. Do you even remember the "Do you really want chat channels?" incident? Blizzard is up themselves and have lost the plot completely. Wc3 isn't even balanced and they've been trying for yrs.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: That BW died sucks. That it was replaced with a game you hate also sucks. Go beat up Savior. But SC2 did not kill BW, and certainly not SC2 fans.
As a great man once said, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was named starcraft 2.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: This is actually something more people need to do, and I really wish a lot of the anti-SC2 arguments in the BW forum were being made in the Bnet forums, where they might do some good.
We tried and they don't care. How short is your memory seriously.
Samurai, "If you see a troll post, report and ignore."
but you're the troll, how do you ignore yourself?
I find it hilarious one of the argument against sc2 is because it had starcraft in its name. That's akin to say broodwar is only famous because it was the only game with a budget during the pcbang era
or if broodwar was so great then why is it dying. circular logic ftw
Switching out WoL for HotS looks like it'll be an improvement though, if only a mild one, so I kind of don't mind.
There wouldn't be an SC2 scene now if the game was unpatched. Terran was ludicrously imbalanced, and the game was designed around tiny maps, so when people moved to bigger maps for macro games, Zerg couldn't scout at all because the overlord moved at 1MPH for like two years. Blizzard's continued work on the game has (for the most part) been an improvement, because otherwise it'd be SCV Marine All-ins every fucking game like it was in GSL 3.
So basically you built a pro scene around a game still in its beta stages. Definitely has nothing to do with the game being named starcraft.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: So? It's not trying to copy BW, it's trying to do its own thing, and it's leaps and bounds ahead of any other non-BW RTS in that regard.
Your assumption. Maybe it has something to do with Sc2 having the name starcraft in it giving rise to these thoughts. You ask us to give sc2 concessions yet you just put down other games without thought.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: When SC2 fans talk about it getting better, they don't mean that it sucks now and they're holding out for a hero. SC2 has gotten better than it was in 2010, significantly, and SC2 fans feel that it will be better still.
Anyday now...
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And even then, I was a lot more interested, excited, and hyped to be watching the last GSL finals in a hotel lobby at 7am on my vacation.
Seriously this part of you changes on a weakly basis. It is inconsistent. On some weeks you say BW has no story, on others you say sc2 not at the level of BW yet, on some weeks you say Lalush explains what sc2 is missing now you say you enjoy sc2 more? Hell you didn't seem to know what moving shot was a few weeks ago.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And if you think I'm retarded or whatever, that's cool. But I'm starting to realize that I'd kind of prefer MVP vs Parting to Flash vs Bisu. And I imagine you disagree
All the hype from sc2 was derived from the proscene(not casual scene) in korea. The thing is sc2 doesn't have the elements that made sc2 fun(moving shot etc). Now normally no one would give a shit BUT the name sc2 is killing BW.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: And the fact that HotS has the Viper (good unit) and Oracle (fucking great unit) in it isn't going to change your mind. But it makes me kind of excited!
We learn our lesson first time round, don't get overhyped because blizzard isn't what they use to be. Do you even remember the "Do you really want chat channels?" incident? Blizzard is up themselves and have lost the plot completely. Wc3 isn't even balanced and they've been trying for yrs.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: That BW died sucks. That it was replaced with a game you hate also sucks. Go beat up Savior. But SC2 did not kill BW, and certainly not SC2 fans.
As a great man once said, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it was named starcraft 2.
On June 02 2012 18:44 Ribbon wrote: This is actually something more people need to do, and I really wish a lot of the anti-SC2 arguments in the BW forum were being made in the Bnet forums, where they might do some good.
We tried and they don't care. How short is your memory seriously.
Samurai, "If you see a troll post, report and ignore."
but you're the troll, how do you ignore yourself?
I find it hilarious one of the argument against sc2 is because it had starcraft in its name. That's akin to say broodwar is only famous because it was the only game with a budget during the pcbang era
or if broodwar was so great then why is it dying. circular logic ftw
That doesn't make any sense. What it means is that SCtoo is being judged against BW because it has the name "StarCraft" in it. Objectively, SCtoo is a great game (all things considered), but it is taking criticism from those familiar with BW and its proscene because it is being judged against one of the best RTS of all time, and would probably be given a bit more credit if it wasn't called StarCraft. Then again, it might not be as popular either.
Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
If sc2 is the future that I must accept than I will obediently convert to LoL you know why ? At least it's fun .
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
I don't think any one who really knew the BW scene and understood at least a small part of the strategic depth of the game can prefer sc2 to bw. The pros play for a living. They want whatever they can get out of the game before it is replaced by the next one that is backed up by a large enough corporation. No one would have the guts to admit that though, except maybe for Idra... Only people like Coach Jung Soo Yeong, who are not dependent on the approval of the "e-sports" mob can say what they really think. It will be interesting to see what STX Soul's coach will have to say about SC2 now, since it has become the life line of his team in Proleague - I bet he won't say, as he did before, that the only good thing about the game was its name.
You could call us elitists all you want, but you have to understand that what we have now is mob rule. Because of hype and commercialisation, a real sport and ultimately an important part of (at least) the Korean culture is on the verge of destruction and from my perspective, sc2 only lives of the ignorance of its fans who don't question what they are being spoon-fed.
Great article! I would have been a bit scared if I had to do an interview with Jung Soo-yeong. I cant remember him smiling once during PL.
Once again my favourite old player, Goodfriend gets no love :c I would have put him on instead of sync. Yea sync transfered to KTF ealrier than Goodfriend, but GF allways preformed better than sync in teamleagues for KTF.
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
And i don't love playing Sc2. and i don't love watching SC2 now you tell me why am a elitist because i prefer something that might be older but in my eyes is better? just because it is new i have 2 jump on it and like it? all this elitist blablalba so fucking annoying
oh and while we are at this elitist shit. the SC2 community is one big elitist :D only cares about SC2 and flames everything else into the ground.
Yea, as far as elitism goes, SC2 community is the very worst.
If you want proof, just look at TL IRC chat during events of which SC2 isn't the only game played. Or stream chat during the same events. If they show 5 mins of another game (say Halo) the SC2 vocals go crazy with shit like "WHERE IS MY SC2?" or "WHAT IS THIS SHIT HALO CRAP??? WHERE IS IDRA"
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
And i don't love playing Sc2. and i don't love watching SC2 now you tell me why am a elitist because i prefer something that might be older but in my eyes is better? just because it is new i have 2 jump on it and like it? all this elitist blablalba so fucking annoying
oh and while we are at this elitist shit. the SC2 community is one big elitist :D only cares about SC2 and flames everything else into the ground.
As a member of the Sc2 community I beg to differ. I enjoy watching Proleague and not only for Sc2. I love watching Bw as well and love the BW players as well.
On June 05 2012 02:29 fabiano wrote: Yea, as far as elitism goes, SC2 community is the very worst.
If you want proof, just look at TL IRC chat during events of which SC2 isn't the only game played. Or stream chat during the same events. If they show 5 mins of another game (say Halo) the SC2 vocals go crazy with shit like "WHERE IS MY SC2?" or "WHAT IS THIS SHIT HALO CRAP??? WHERE IS IDRA"
All im saying is, in people's eyes like this coach and like most of you BW guys, Esports is dying because BW is dying, when in fact in America, Esports is just taking off and will only keep going. SC2 and BW arent the only esports games btw.
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
And that's okay for different people to have different opinions.
If you don't like reading these posts, then go somewhere else. Did you honestly expect pro-SC2 opinions in this forum? There's no need for you to defend the honor of the SC2 scene here and tell us we are all ignorant nostalgiafags, it just makes everyone roll their eyes and creates more animosity towards SC2.
The comments are extremely aggressive towards any other game than SC2. I experienced it all while trying to get back into SC2, and there is some especial hatred against LoL. There is almost 0 tolerance to anything else in the streams.. from one of the best gaming communities, SC became one of the most intolerant.
Funny enough, they use the same arguments they used to defend SC2 from criticism from people who played BW to attack LoL... go figure...
Maybe things changed, don't know. Whenever an event with multiple games stream, we will find out.
On June 05 2012 03:50 TommyP wrote: All im saying is, in people's eyes like this coach and like most of you BW guys, Esports is dying because BW is dying, when in fact in America, Esports is just taking off and will only keep going. SC2 and BW arent the only esports games btw.
On the contrary, E-Sports is dead. The "growth" that you see around you is for competitive gaming.
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
If sc2 is the future that I must accept than I will obediently convert to LoL you know why ? At least it's fun .
As this is a commercial, NaDa is literally being paid to say LoL is good. Which isn't to say he's lying, but active pro-gamers have weird incentives. Any KeSPA player who said SC2 was bad a year ago should be taken with a grain of salt. Likewise, all the KeSPA players who say SC2 is good now should also be taken with a grain of salt. There's a company line, and they have to stick to it when it's pro SC2 just as much as they did when it was anti SC2.
On June 05 2012 01:41 gillon wrote: There is so much ignorant hate in this thread, it blows my mind to see it still open.
None of it's new. Haters gonna hate.
On June 05 2012 02:29 fabiano wrote: Yea, as far as elitism goes, SC2 community is the very worst.
If you want proof, just look at TL IRC chat during events of which SC2 isn't the only game played. Or stream chat during the same events. If they show 5 mins of another game (say Halo) the SC2 vocals go crazy with shit like "WHERE IS MY SC2?" or "WHAT IS THIS SHIT HALO CRAP??? WHERE IS IDRA"
Chat rooms are awful, and attract the worst people. The better part (both in quantity and quality) of SC2 players ignore them. If you want to hate on the SC2 community, the passion for "e-Sports" generally evaporated pretty quick when a game came along that was a threat (LoL), though the irrational exubrience kind of left when the rapid growth did.
On June 05 2012 02:29 fabiano wrote: Yea, as far as elitism goes, SC2 community is the very worst.
If you want proof, just look at TL IRC chat during events of which SC2 isn't the only game played. Or stream chat during the same events. If they show 5 mins of another game (say Halo) the SC2 vocals go crazy with shit like "WHERE IS MY SC2?" or "WHAT IS THIS SHIT HALO CRAP??? WHERE IS IDRA"
Im sure most are joking.
No, they're all trolls. Even Reddit avoids chat rooms.
On June 05 2012 04:44 fabiano wrote: Most of them are definitely not joking.
The comments are extremely aggressive towards any other game than SC2. I experienced it all while trying to get back into SC2, and there is some especial hatred against LoL. There is almost 0 tolerance to anything else in the streams.. from one of the best gaming communities, SC became one of the most intolerant..
All of this can be said about the BW scene as well. BW fans only like LoL because it tweaks SC2 fans. There are douchebags and weirdos in every fandom. Though, I think both BW and SC2 fans can be united in feeling superior to the fighting game community
This is a community that's, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the fighting game community—it's StarCraft.
I think everyone on this forum should be proud that StarCraft fans are renowned for....not being creepy pervery neckbeards.
On June 05 2012 03:50 TommyP wrote: All im saying is, in people's eyes like this coach and like most of you BW guys, Esports is dying because BW is dying, when in fact in America, Esports is just taking off and will only keep going. SC2 and BW arent the only esports games btw.
On the contrary, E-Sports is dead. The "growth" that you see around you is for competitive gaming.
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
If sc2 is the future that I must accept than I will obediently convert to LoL you know why ? At least it's fun .
As this is a commercial, NaDa is literally being paid to say LoL is good. Which isn't to say he's lying, but active pro-gamers have weird incentives. Any KeSPA player who said SC2 was bad a year ago should be taken with a grain of salt. Likewise, all the KeSPA players who say SC2 is good now should also be taken with a grain of salt. There's a company line, and they have to stick to it when it's pro SC2 just as much as they did when it was anti SC2.
On June 05 2012 02:29 fabiano wrote: Yea, as far as elitism goes, SC2 community is the very worst.
If you want proof, just look at TL IRC chat during events of which SC2 isn't the only game played. Or stream chat during the same events. If they show 5 mins of another game (say Halo) the SC2 vocals go crazy with shit like "WHERE IS MY SC2?" or "WHAT IS THIS SHIT HALO CRAP??? WHERE IS IDRA"
Chat rooms are awful, and attract the worst people. The better part (both in quantity and quality) of SC2 players ignore them. If you want to hate on the SC2 community, the passion for "e-Sports" generally evaporated pretty quick when a game came along that was a threat (LoL), though the irrational exubrience kind of left when the rapid growth did.
On June 05 2012 02:29 fabiano wrote: Yea, as far as elitism goes, SC2 community is the very worst.
If you want proof, just look at TL IRC chat during events of which SC2 isn't the only game played. Or stream chat during the same events. If they show 5 mins of another game (say Halo) the SC2 vocals go crazy with shit like "WHERE IS MY SC2?" or "WHAT IS THIS SHIT HALO CRAP??? WHERE IS IDRA"
Im sure most are joking.
No, they're all trolls. Even Reddit avoids chat rooms.
On June 05 2012 04:44 fabiano wrote: Most of them are definitely not joking.
The comments are extremely aggressive towards any other game than SC2. I experienced it all while trying to get back into SC2, and there is some especial hatred against LoL. There is almost 0 tolerance to anything else in the streams.. from one of the best gaming communities, SC became one of the most intolerant..
All of this can be said about the BW scene as well. BW fans only like LoL because it tweaks SC2 fans. There are douchebags and weirdos in every fandom. Though, I think both BW and SC2 fans can be united in feeling superior to the fighting game community
This is a community that's, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the fighting game community—it's StarCraft.
I think everyone on this forum should be proud that StarCraft fans are renowned for....not being creepy pervery neckbeards.
On June 05 2012 03:50 TommyP wrote: All im saying is, in people's eyes like this coach and like most of you BW guys, Esports is dying because BW is dying, when in fact in America, Esports is just taking off and will only keep going. SC2 and BW arent the only esports games btw.
On the contrary, E-Sports is dead. The "growth" that you see around you is for competitive gaming.
What's the difference?
Don't know dude but Nada and Kim Carrier found LoL to be addictive both play until the middle of the morning and that's enough to insure me that this game has the next chance to explode and grow big like broodwar did in korea .
E-Sports was never alive. There only was and is Progaming. And why should I direct my hate against the Fighting Gaming community? That is so random man. And btw, I like LoL because it is a fun game. And because some SC2 fans are butthurt over it.
All of this can be said about the BW scene as well. BW fans only like LoL because it tweaks SC2 fans. There are douchebags and weirdos in every fandom. Though, I think both BW and SC2 fans can be united in feeling superior to the fighting game community
I disagree with this. I legitimately enjoy playing LoL. And at one point in my life, I also enjoyed SC2. Perhaps more than BW at one point, but the enjoyment faded over time. But there is an element of tweaking in debate. It's fun to turn the SC2 arguments on their head and use them to defend LoL... if I wasn't a mod. Actually more seriously, there are several arguments I find quite weak, but they apparently are seen as quite strong arguments as they keep getting repeated again and again. One of the best way to demonstrate the weakness of the argument is to turn the same argument back around to defend LoL against SC2.
Oh and LoL hate isn't restricted to chat. It's been expressed quite loudly on TL forums.
On June 04 2012 22:59 Sawamura wrote: On the contrary, E-Sports is dead. The "growth" that you see around you is for competitive gaming.
What's the difference?
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
All of this can be said about the BW scene as well. BW fans only like LoL because it tweaks SC2 fans. There are douchebags and weirdos in every fandom. Though, I think both BW and SC2 fans can be united in feeling superior to the fighting game community
I disagree with this. I legitimately enjoy playing LoL. And at one point in my life, I also enjoyed SC2, perhaps more than BW, but it faded over time. But there is an element of tweaking in debate. It's fun to turn the SC2 arguments on their head and use them to defend LoL... if I wasn't a mod.
Oh and LoL hate isn't restricted to chat. It's been expressed quite loudly on TL forums.
On June 04 2012 22:59 Sawamura wrote: On the contrary, E-Sports is dead. The "growth" that you see around you is for competitive gaming.
What's the difference?
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea that was held by many BW fans was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
YES. I doubt you could have said that much better.
BW was the first game to, even for a brief moment in time in a small country, transcend the boundaries of a game and really impact a society as a SPORT. I doubt that any game, especially not SCToo, can be such an influence in a society.
On June 04 2012 22:34 TommyP wrote: Reading all these comments I feel that half of you guys are BW elitists living in the past and never wanting Brood War to end. I love playing SC2 and i love watching SC2 and thats all i care about.
If sc2 is the future that I must accept than I will obediently convert to LoL you know why ? At least it's fun .
As this is a commercial, NaDa is literally being paid to say LoL is good. Which isn't to say he's lying, but active pro-gamers have weird incentives. Any KeSPA player who said SC2 was bad a year ago should be taken with a grain of salt. Likewise, all the KeSPA players who say SC2 is good now should also be taken with a grain of salt. There's a company line, and they have to stick to it when it's pro SC2 just as much as they did when it was anti SC2.
On June 05 2012 01:41 gillon wrote: There is so much ignorant hate in this thread, it blows my mind to see it still open.
None of it's new. Haters gonna hate.
On June 05 2012 02:29 fabiano wrote: Yea, as far as elitism goes, SC2 community is the very worst.
If you want proof, just look at TL IRC chat during events of which SC2 isn't the only game played. Or stream chat during the same events. If they show 5 mins of another game (say Halo) the SC2 vocals go crazy with shit like "WHERE IS MY SC2?" or "WHAT IS THIS SHIT HALO CRAP??? WHERE IS IDRA"
Chat rooms are awful, and attract the worst people. The better part (both in quantity and quality) of SC2 players ignore them. If you want to hate on the SC2 community, the passion for "e-Sports" generally evaporated pretty quick when a game came along that was a threat (LoL), though the irrational exubrience kind of left when the rapid growth did.
On June 05 2012 03:49 TommyP wrote:
On June 05 2012 02:29 fabiano wrote: Yea, as far as elitism goes, SC2 community is the very worst.
If you want proof, just look at TL IRC chat during events of which SC2 isn't the only game played. Or stream chat during the same events. If they show 5 mins of another game (say Halo) the SC2 vocals go crazy with shit like "WHERE IS MY SC2?" or "WHAT IS THIS SHIT HALO CRAP??? WHERE IS IDRA"
Im sure most are joking.
No, they're all trolls. Even Reddit avoids chat rooms.
On June 05 2012 04:44 fabiano wrote: Most of them are definitely not joking.
The comments are extremely aggressive towards any other game than SC2. I experienced it all while trying to get back into SC2, and there is some especial hatred against LoL. There is almost 0 tolerance to anything else in the streams.. from one of the best gaming communities, SC became one of the most intolerant..
All of this can be said about the BW scene as well. BW fans only like LoL because it tweaks SC2 fans. There are douchebags and weirdos in every fandom. Though, I think both BW and SC2 fans can be united in feeling superior to the fighting game community
This is a community that's, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture, and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it's not the fighting game community—it's StarCraft.
I think everyone on this forum should be proud that StarCraft fans are renowned for....not being creepy pervery neckbeards.
On June 05 2012 05:47 jpak wrote:
On June 05 2012 03:50 TommyP wrote: All im saying is, in people's eyes like this coach and like most of you BW guys, Esports is dying because BW is dying, when in fact in America, Esports is just taking off and will only keep going. SC2 and BW arent the only esports games btw.
On the contrary, E-Sports is dead. The "growth" that you see around you is for competitive gaming.
What's the difference?
Don't know dude but Nada and Kim Carrier found LoL to be addictive both play until the middle of the morning and that's enough to insure me that this game has the next chance to explode and grow big like broodwar did in korea .
Depends more on how fun it is to watch, I think. There are a lot of games that are really fun to play (Team Fortress 2!) that maybe not so much fun to watch the competitive scene.
All of this can be said about the BW scene as well. BW fans only like LoL because it tweaks SC2 fans. There are douchebags and weirdos in every fandom. Though, I think both BW and SC2 fans can be united in feeling superior to the fighting game community
I disagree with this. I legitimately enjoy playing LoL. And at one point in my life, I also enjoyed SC2. Perhaps more than BW at one point, but the enjoyment faded over time. But there is an element of tweaking in debate. It's fun to turn the SC2 arguments on their head and use them to defend LoL... if I wasn't a mod. Actually more seriously, there are several arguments I find quite weak, but they apparently are seen as quite strong arguments as they keep getting repeated again and again. One of the best way to demonstrate the weakness of the argument is to turn the same argument back around to defend LoL against SC2.
You're right, actually. Obviously people really do watch the game, but there's a lot of tweaking going on. I can be the same when people say BW players are going to be good at SC2 one day (Why should I "give them time" when they have years of BW experience to build off of, etc).
I do find it kind of interesting how most of the BW vs SC2 arguments transfer so neatly into an SC2 vs LoL flamewar, though.
On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
I'm not sure how true that is, honestly. We're past the point where graphics are notably improving from year to year. BW itself probably won't have a big resurgence (though there'll be a competitive scene for a loooooong time), but it's going to be fairly difficult for a new RTS to supplant SC2 at this point, unless it's substantially better. Even if it's named Starcraft 3 (and with SC2 becoming a revenue stream for Blizz in a way BW never was, I doubt we'll see a Starcraft 3 for a very long time). I think the "Next New Game" cycle might be coming to an end.
Putting aside its qualities as a game, BW had several major issues that were eating away at its playerbase: It didn't work properly on modern operating systems. It requires port-forwarding that's not easy for everyone to set up. It's very difficult to find people of your skill level reliably, especially with smurfs. I think, eventually, someone's going to make a BW-like game that's F2P and really easy to start playing, and that'll be it. I'd play it.
I want a game with BW's gameplay and SC2's quick-play button that doesn't require admin access to my router. That's the game I want. And when someone makes a game that satisfies both the BW fan type and the SC2 fan type, that game will be The One. And Valve and Riot are trying to do it. I hope they do well, because even though I don't care for LoL, I want Blizz to have to sweat a little to keep SC2 a money earner.
The spirit of BW, I think, has the potential to outlast BW itself. I think it can happen, and it's the reason the "KeSPA is switching so I'm done with eSports forever" people irritate me so much, even though I understand where they're coming from and can't logically blame them.
On June 05 2012 04:44 fabiano wrote: Most of them are definitely not joking.
The comments are extremely aggressive towards any other game than SC2. I experienced it all while trying to get back into SC2, and there is some especial hatred against LoL. There is almost 0 tolerance to anything else in the streams.. from one of the best gaming communities, SC became one of the most intolerant.
Funny enough, they use the same arguments they used to defend SC2 from criticism from people who played BW to attack LoL... go figure...
Maybe things changed, don't know. Whenever an event with multiple games stream, we will find out.
I just don't know how you've browse the internet for so long and still takes anonymous-like chat room seriously. Its full of trolls and they love to start up random crap. you can't go for more than 5 min there without someone bringing up broodwar and saying how its the best thing ever
but if I wanted to judge broodwar community off of that, I could've just label all of you elitists jackass with no lifes and tolerance for anything other than broodwar
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
LOL seriously IMO thats a bad post you only going to cause more flame. You put down a double edge sword with that post.
"True" gamer? ^^ If thats your definition of a true gamer then I believe there are no true gamer in this world. Everyone despises one game or another it cant be help. From the post about ps vita and xbox 720 I already hate it and I havent played touched it. No backward compatibility and you probably cant play used game? Wow if none hates that I dont know what to say or if you dont hate that U are a true gamer in ur definition and I salute you (Mostly likely you are deep down despising it too unless you dont play console). Hate is a part of human nature. The only people who I consider True Gamer are people who died from massive game playing, pro-gamers (those gettin paid to play, eat and breath thinking of the game), and few other exemption.
Honestly I wonder where Kespa is taking esport? Are they leaving the korean scene to appeal to the foeigners? Will they push for viewership fees? Are they leaving the non-profit to go to the profit side? Hell MLG is banking millions and it makes me wonder are they following the same path?
Im pretty sure this is what the ex KT coach was thinking.
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
LOL seriously IMO thats a bad post you only going to cause more flame. You put down a double edge sword with that post.
"True" gamer? ^^ If thats your definition of a true gamer then I believe there are no true gamer in this world. Everyone despises one game or another it cant be help. From the post about ps vita and xbox 720 I already hate it and I havent played touched it. No backward compatibility and you probably cant play used game? Wow if none hates that I dont know what to say or if you dont hate that U are a true gamer in ur definition and I salute you (Mostly likely you are deep down despising it too unless you dont play console). Hate is a part of human nature. The only people who I consider True Gamer are people who died from massive game playing, pro-gamers (those gettin paid to play, eat and breath thinking of the game), and few other exemption.
Honestly I wonder where Kespa is taking esport? Are they leaving the korean scene to appeal to the foeigners? Will they push for viewership fees? Are they leaving the non-profit to go to the profit side? Hell MLG is banking millions and it makes me wonder are they following the same path?
Im pretty sure this is what the ex KT coach was thinking.
I'm afraid you don't get it.
He's saying that you can just respect other people's view and do your thing, because arguing about who's game has the largest e-penis doesn't change a thing. If people don't like the vita or the new xbox they just shouldn't buy it. The guys who spend all their time on crying over it on an internet forum are doing it wrong.
He's using "true" gamer to refer to a grown up, respectful and reasonable human being, not as someone without any opinion.
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
I call bullshit. Despising games for destroying ideas and ideals is a valid source of emotion. It's not supposed to put a game above others. It's supposed to give opinions about worrying trends, and through criticism improve them, which is what a lot of the "BW-elitist" crowd are trying to do.
Your "True gamer" monicker makes your argument even worse, and I despise you as a human being for comparing differences in opinion about games to ideas that have caused ethnicide.
I might have been too harsh, in my wording, but you REALLY pissed me off.
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
I call bullshit. Despising games for destroying ideas and ideals is a valid source of emotion. It's not supposed to put a game above others. It's supposed to give opinions about worrying trends, and through criticism improve them, which is what a lot of the "BW-elitist" crowd are trying to do.
Your "True gamer" monicker makes your argument even worse, and I despise you as a human being for comparing differences in opinion about games to ideas that have caused ethnicide.
I might have been too harsh, in my wording, but you REALLY pissed me off.
I agree it's probably not very accurate to say it's equally as bad as them 'ism's. There are a some similarities, but you can't really put them quite on the same level of stupid (they are on entirely different levels of stupid). I'm kind of curious though, how can a game destroy ideas and ideals? Wouldn't it be the people who play it or other entities rather than an inanimate piece of code (maybe you can elaborate a bit on what you mean by a game destroying ideas).
On another off-topic thing - I can't really say I find it particularly interesting or surprising that similar reactions pop up to League of Legends from Starcraft 2 community than from Broodwar community to Starcraft 2. It seems like a rather normal reaction in our current state of society (I would've rather been surprised if it didn't happen to be honest). I'm curious though - do people think the reaction from Starcraft 2 to League of Legends is correct or the reaction from Broodwar to Starcraft 2 is wrong?
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
I call bullshit. Despising games for destroying ideas and ideals is a valid source of emotion. It's not supposed to put a game above others. It's supposed to give opinions about worrying trends, and through criticism improve them, which is what a lot of the "BW-elitist" crowd are trying to do.
Your "True gamer" monicker makes your argument even worse, and I despise you as a human being for comparing differences in opinion about games to ideas that have caused ethnicide.
I might have been too harsh, in my wording, but you REALLY pissed me off.
I agree it's probably not very accurate to say it's equally as bad as them 'ism's. There are a some similarities, but you can't really put them quite on the same level of stupid (they are on entirely different levels of stupid). I'm kind of curious though, how can a game destroy ideas and ideals? Wouldn't it be the people who play it or other entities rather than an inanimate piece of code (maybe you can elaborate a bit on what you mean by a game destroying ideas).
On another off-topic thing - I can't really say I find it particularly interesting or surprising that similar reactions pop up to League of Legends from Starcraft 2 community than from Broodwar community to Starcraft 2. It seems like a rather normal reaction in our current state of society (I would've rather been surprised if it didn't happen to be honest). I'm curious though - do people think the reaction from Starcraft 2 to League of Legends is correct or the reaction from Broodwar to Starcraft 2 is wrong?
A game is more than a piece of code, it's an interactive experience for the gamer. Games can either promote or destroy ideas or ideals, like any art or entertainment medium, and the same arguments that can be used for games can be used for the others. Isn't a movie a roll of film? Isn't a book a few sheets of paper? Don't these things promote ideas and lead to the destruction of others?
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you have worded your thoughts incorrectly/lost some in translation.
Since if it were your true point, putting racial discrimination anywhere close to not liking a game or its fans is just preposterous. Like Mustaju said, games are based on or promote certain ideas and we are not required to like any and all of them. For example greediness of a developer should be met with widespread lack of approvement, not thoughtless cheers of love and support. Etc.
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
I call bullshit. Despising games for destroying ideas and ideals is a valid source of emotion. It's not supposed to put a game above others. It's supposed to give opinions about worrying trends, and through criticism improve them, which is what a lot of the "BW-elitist" crowd are trying to do.
Your "True gamer" monicker makes your argument even worse, and I despise you as a human being for comparing differences in opinion about games to ideas that have caused ethnicide.
I might have been too harsh, in my wording, but you REALLY pissed me off.
I agree it's probably not very accurate to say it's equally as bad as them 'ism's. There are a some similarities, but you can't really put them quite on the same level of stupid (they are on entirely different levels of stupid). I'm kind of curious though, how can a game destroy ideas and ideals? Wouldn't it be the people who play it or other entities rather than an inanimate piece of code (maybe you can elaborate a bit on what you mean by a game destroying ideas).
On another off-topic thing - I can't really say I find it particularly interesting or surprising that similar reactions pop up to League of Legends from Starcraft 2 community than from Broodwar community to Starcraft 2. It seems like a rather normal reaction in our current state of society (I would've rather been surprised if it didn't happen to be honest). I'm curious though - do people think the reaction from Starcraft 2 to League of Legends is correct or the reaction from Broodwar to Starcraft 2 is wrong?
A game is more than a piece of code, it's an interactive experience for the gamer. Games can either promote or destroy ideas or ideals, like any art or entertainment medium, and the same arguments that can be used for games can be used for the others. Isn't a movie a roll of film? Isn't a book a few sheets of paper? Don't these things promote ideas and lead to the destruction of others?
Ok, I think I get what you mean - I don't think I quite agree with it though. They can probably promote an idea, but not really destroy another one. You can probably despise something for promoting a bad idea, but even then a game like Starcraft 2 or Broodwar are a lot less about promoting an idea than the medium of a book or a movie.
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
I call bullshit. Despising games for destroying ideas and ideals is a valid source of emotion. It's not supposed to put a game above others. It's supposed to give opinions about worrying trends, and through criticism improve them, which is what a lot of the "BW-elitist" crowd are trying to do.
Your "True gamer" monicker makes your argument even worse, and I despise you as a human being for comparing differences in opinion about games to ideas that have caused ethnicide.
I might have been too harsh, in my wording, but you REALLY pissed me off.
I agree it's probably not very accurate to say it's equally as bad as them 'ism's. There are a some similarities, but you can't really put them quite on the same level of stupid (they are on entirely different levels of stupid). I'm kind of curious though, how can a game destroy ideas and ideals? Wouldn't it be the people who play it or other entities rather than an inanimate piece of code (maybe you can elaborate a bit on what you mean by a game destroying ideas).
On another off-topic thing - I can't really say I find it particularly interesting or surprising that similar reactions pop up to League of Legends from Starcraft 2 community than from Broodwar community to Starcraft 2. It seems like a rather normal reaction in our current state of society (I would've rather been surprised if it didn't happen to be honest). I'm curious though - do people think the reaction from Starcraft 2 to League of Legends is correct or the reaction from Broodwar to Starcraft 2 is wrong?
A game is more than a piece of code, it's an interactive experience for the gamer. Games can either promote or destroy ideas or ideals, like any art or entertainment medium, and the same arguments that can be used for games can be used for the others. Isn't a movie a roll of film? Isn't a book a few sheets of paper? Don't these things promote ideas and lead to the destruction of others?
Ok, I think I get what you mean - I don't think I quite agree with it though. They can probably promote an idea, but not really destroy another one. You can probably despise something for promoting a bad idea, but even then a game like Starcraft 2 or Broodwar are a lot less about promoting an idea than the medium of a book or a movie.
If games change the way people think about things, they are responsible for the promotion of the idea and the destruction of the idea they replaced. As Falling eloquently put, the idea that a video game could survive the Next Big Title was destroyed with the events that followed SC2. I do not agree at all that games stimulate people less or change their behaviour less than movies or books, and I think that the degree that games influence peoples way of thinking will even increase as time advances. The degree that SC2 or BW did this specifically can and will be argued about, but I think that one can justifiedly despise SC2 for some of it's design choices.
I just love how everyone in this thread dogpiled on John for making a hyperbolic post comparing people disrepecting each others games to racism or whatever, and everyone here mentions how BW transcending gaming itself or other such wishy-washy nonsense.
On June 06 2012 03:46 Calis5 wrote: I just love how everyone in this thread dogpiled on John for making a hyperbolic post comparing people disrepecting each others games to racism or whatever, and everyone here mentions how BW transcending gaming itself or other such wishy-washy nonsense.
On June 06 2012 03:46 Calis5 wrote: I just love how everyone in this thread dogpiled on John for making a hyperbolic post comparing people disrepecting each others games to racism or whatever, and everyone here mentions how BW transcending gaming itself or other such wishy-washy nonsense.
Being a big name means jack when he makes such an asinine statement.
And isn't that what all that supposed "bringing ESPORTS to the mainstream" so prevalent today all about? If anything, those people are wishy-washy for calling us fools to believe in such things while trying to do the same themselves. Two-faced much?
There is no discussing that League of Legends is the 'reserved for the disabled' spot of the great parking of e-sports.
It is by far the simplest game to have ever been played at high level and yeah, seeing it getting big in Korea is a worrying trend. I don't mind playing casual games to have fun, but I would mind turning an esports tv channel (dreaming) on and seeing League of Legends be played, just like I would mind turning a sports channel on and seeing football be played with no goalkeeper.
On June 06 2012 17:58 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: There is no discussing that League of Legends is the 'reserved for the disabled' spot of the great parking of e-sports.
It is by far the simplest game to have ever been played at high level and yeah, seeing it getting big in Korea is a worrying trend. I don't mind playing casual games to have fun, but I would mind turning an esports tv channel (dreaming) on and seeing League of Legends be played, just like I would mind turning a sports channel on and seeing football be played with no goalkeeper.
On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
Best post in the thread. I would call this The BW "elitist" Manifesto, and every SC2 fan should read this to understand the BW fan's point of view.
With the demise of professional Brood War, there is more than just a game falling down. It's the culture on programing, replaced by the idea of ESPORTS, which I see as nothing more as advertising at the service of Blizzard and sponsors, at the expense of providing the highest possible competitive gameplay.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs.
No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that.
On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs.
No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that.
You are not famous so I don't trust you . I trust Carmac <3
"If my personal feelings about a game were important, Quake Live would still be in the Intel Extreme Masters (-; ” I think League of Legends is a game with a lot of potential, with a publisher that understands e-sports and is doing a lot to support League of Legends as an e-sports title. Take the DreamHack tournament (Season 1 finals) – how many other publishers do you see putting up $100,000 in prize money for their tournaments? I myself haven´t played League of Legends enough to have an well-grounded opinion on the gameplay. I spent most of my free time trying to become good at StarCraft II for RotterdaM University . Now that the show is over for me, I can try League of Legends."
Well this is my personal preference however I like games that don't force feed themselves in to other countries violating the laws of advertisement in the said country(korea) if you didn't catch it . You know sc2 wasn't that bad because I think blizzard did spend a lot hyping sc2 in korea and sadly it didn't catch up as much as LoL did to the korean crowd.
On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
I have nothing against LOL or anything but this is distinctly wrong. League's emergence is nothing like how BW started, if anything LOL's system shared more with DOTA2's million dollar tourny and SC2's ESPORTZZZ hype advertisment.
If any scene is similar to how BW was back in early 2000s it would be the fighting game community.
On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs.
No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that.
You are not famous so I don't trust you . I trust Carmac <3
"If my personal feelings about a game were important, Quake Live would still be in the Intel Extreme Masters (-; ” I think League of Legends is a game with a lot of potential, with a publisher that understands e-sports and is doing a lot to support League of Legends as an e-sports title. Take the DreamHack tournament (Season 1 finals) – how many other publishers do you see putting up $100,000 in prize money for their tournaments? I myself haven´t played League of Legends enough to have an well-grounded opinion on the gameplay. I spent most of my free time trying to become good at StarCraft II for RotterdaM University . Now that the show is over for me, I can try League of Legends."
Well this is my personal preference however I like games that don't force feed themselves in to other countries violating the laws of advertisement in the said country(korea) if you didn't catch it . You know sc2 wasn't that bad because I think blizzard did spend a lot hyping sc2 in korea and sadly it didn't catch up as much as LoL did to the korean crowd.
You mean koreans dont like paying for expensive games and instead like to play free games? What a shocker!
On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs.
No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that.
You are not famous so I don't trust you . I trust Carmac <3
"If my personal feelings about a game were important, Quake Live would still be in the Intel Extreme Masters (-; ” I think League of Legends is a game with a lot of potential, with a publisher that understands e-sports and is doing a lot to support League of Legends as an e-sports title. Take the DreamHack tournament (Season 1 finals) – how many other publishers do you see putting up $100,000 in prize money for their tournaments? I myself haven´t played League of Legends enough to have an well-grounded opinion on the gameplay. I spent most of my free time trying to become good at StarCraft II for RotterdaM University . Now that the show is over for me, I can try League of Legends."
Well this is my personal preference however I like games that don't force feed themselves in to other countries violating the laws of advertisement in the said country(korea) if you didn't catch it . You know sc2 wasn't that bad because I think blizzard did spend a lot hyping sc2 in korea and sadly it didn't catch up as much as LoL did to the korean crowd.
You mean koreans dont like paying for expensive games and instead like to play free games? What a shocker!
Why pay for sc2 when I can play mmo games and spend time with girl friend in pc bang ?
On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote: I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs.
No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that.
You are not famous so I don't trust you . I trust Carmac <3
"If my personal feelings about a game were important, Quake Live would still be in the Intel Extreme Masters (-; ” I think League of Legends is a game with a lot of potential, with a publisher that understands e-sports and is doing a lot to support League of Legends as an e-sports title. Take the DreamHack tournament (Season 1 finals) – how many other publishers do you see putting up $100,000 in prize money for their tournaments? I myself haven´t played League of Legends enough to have an well-grounded opinion on the gameplay. I spent most of my free time trying to become good at StarCraft II for RotterdaM University . Now that the show is over for me, I can try League of Legends."
Well this is my personal preference however I like games that don't force feed themselves in to other countries violating the laws of advertisement in the said country(korea) if you didn't catch it . You know sc2 wasn't that bad because I think blizzard did spend a lot hyping sc2 in korea and sadly it didn't catch up as much as LoL did to the korean crowd.
You mean koreans dont like paying for expensive games and instead like to play free games? What a shocker!
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
Well they are pretty smart since they can spend their hard earn money on other things beside sc2 . So in my book they are pretty wise.
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
Well they are pretty smart since they can spend their hard earn money on other things beside sc2 . So in my book they are pretty wise.
But I thought Koreans had inherently better taste in games? How can they go from something so perfect like brood war to a dumbed down moba?
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
It means Korea adopted the Free to Play model earlier than the west (they came up with it after all), and have done a well enough job that now that many great games are free of charge. Not sure what you're trying to imply.
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
Barring Blizzard games (because of BW), YES!!!
What does it say about Korea? If the game is not free-to-play, it better be REALLY DAMN good. It doesn't mean that Koreans are not willing to pay. Just look at Diablo 3, for instance, and see how much hype that got prior to opening day and how many people still play it in PC Bangs.
But overall, that mentality of paying $60 for a new game every year like the Call of Duty franchise doesn't really fly in Korea.
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
Well they are pretty smart since they can spend their hard earn money on other things beside sc2 . So in my book they are pretty wise.
But I thought Koreans had inherently better taste in games? How can they go from something so perfect like brood war to a dumbed down moba?
Nope broodwar has been losing popularity already even before sc2 and LoL pop up into the market to MMO games .Which is kind of reasonable since MMO are much more sociable although the grinding and craziness that ensue when you get too addicted to the games have force some kids to spend lot of $$$ on in game items.
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
It means Korea adopted the Free to Play model earlier than the west (they came up with it after all), and have done a well enough job that now that many great games are free of charge. Not sure what you're trying to imply.
Brood war only got popular because it was free, not becuase it was full of depth and life changing like everyone on here would like to believe.
And now LoL is the next new thing that is free to play and will soon supplant brood war.
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
It means Korea adopted the Free to Play model earlier than the west (they came up with it after all), and have done a well enough job that now that many great games are free of charge. Not sure what you're trying to imply.
Brood war only got popular because it was free, not becuase it was full of depth and life changing like everyone on here would like to believe.
And now LoL is the next new thing that is free to play and will soon supplant brood war.
but BW wasn't originally free. You had to purchase a CD with a CD-Key in order to play on the Bnet Ladder back then.
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
It means Korea adopted the Free to Play model earlier than the west (they came up with it after all), and have done a well enough job that now that many great games are free of charge. Not sure what you're trying to imply.
Brood war only got popular because it was free, not becuase it was full of depth and life changing like everyone on here would like to believe.
And now LoL is the next new thing that is free to play and will soon supplant brood war.
but BW wasn't originally free. You had to purchase a CD with a CD-Key in order to play on the Bnet Ladder back then.
Yes, 'originally' but do you know how easy it was to get around that? Same with WC3 in china, why do you think blizzard created this restrictive bnet 2.0 crap in the first place?
On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote: So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
It means Korea adopted the Free to Play model earlier than the west (they came up with it after all), and have done a well enough job that now that many great games are free of charge. Not sure what you're trying to imply.
Brood war only got popular because it was free, not becuase it was full of depth and life changing like everyone on here would like to believe.
And now LoL is the next new thing that is free to play and will soon supplant brood war.
but BW wasn't originally free. You had to purchase a CD with a CD-Key in order to play on the Bnet Ladder back then.
Yes, 'originally' but do you know how easy it was to get around that? Same with WC3 in china, why do you think blizzard created this restrictive bnet 2.0 crap in the first place?
4.5 million copies were sold in Korea anyway, with 9.5 million copies sold worldwide.
On June 06 2012 17:58 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote: There is no discussing that League of Legends is the 'reserved for the disabled' spot of the great parking of e-sports.
It is by far the simplest game to have ever been played at high level and yeah, seeing it getting big in Korea is a worrying trend. I don't mind playing casual games to have fun, but I would mind turning an esports tv channel (dreaming) on and seeing League of Legends be played, just like I would mind turning a sports channel on and seeing football be played with no goalkeeper.
this is how we feel about sc2.
... and this is how you should feel about sc2, both cases are similar in a lot of ways. who would watch sports if sports were as easy to learn as a moba and an -almost tool-assisted- rts like sc2?
I enjoy watching sc2 more than i enjoy watching LoL though.
On June 07 2012 02:16 iky43210 wrote: f2p is going to be the future of global gaming. Either adapt to the global economy or be prepare to be phased out
asians aren't willing to pay for video games, or software in general.
so asians dont play wow or diablo3? seems weird..
makes me kinda sad bw fanatics saying lol is better to watch than sc2. i started watching bw because whenever i saw pros playing i was like "how can he do that, how is that even possible?!" and i would just drool watching them play. for me watching things like jangbi storms or stork's shuttle micro is like watching lebron/kobe slam dunkin' or ronaldo/messi dribbling through a bunch of players. i think i will never have that feeling again, at least not as epic but in sc2 you can have some nice things like timings and micro showdowns. i like to watch lol but it's not as exciting as watching sc2. that said if i lived in korea i'd watch both i don't see any reason to have to choose just one..
On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote: A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
I call bullshit. Despising games for destroying ideas and ideals is a valid source of emotion. It's not supposed to put a game above others. It's supposed to give opinions about worrying trends, and through criticism improve them, which is what a lot of the "BW-elitist" crowd are trying to do.
Your "True gamer" monicker makes your argument even worse, and I despise you as a human being for comparing differences in opinion about games to ideas that have caused ethnicide.
I might have been too harsh, in my wording, but you REALLY pissed me off.
I agree it's probably not very accurate to say it's equally as bad as them 'ism's. There are a some similarities, but you can't really put them quite on the same level of stupid (they are on entirely different levels of stupid). I'm kind of curious though, how can a game destroy ideas and ideals? Wouldn't it be the people who play it or other entities rather than an inanimate piece of code (maybe you can elaborate a bit on what you mean by a game destroying ideas).
On another off-topic thing - I can't really say I find it particularly interesting or surprising that similar reactions pop up to League of Legends from Starcraft 2 community than from Broodwar community to Starcraft 2. It seems like a rather normal reaction in our current state of society (I would've rather been surprised if it didn't happen to be honest). I'm curious though - do people think the reaction from Starcraft 2 to League of Legends is correct or the reaction from Broodwar to Starcraft 2 is wrong?
A game is more than a piece of code, it's an interactive experience for the gamer. Games can either promote or destroy ideas or ideals, like any art or entertainment medium, and the same arguments that can be used for games can be used for the others. Isn't a movie a roll of film? Isn't a book a few sheets of paper? Don't these things promote ideas and lead to the destruction of others?
Ok, I think I get what you mean - I don't think I quite agree with it though. They can probably promote an idea, but not really destroy another one. You can probably despise something for promoting a bad idea, but even then a game like Starcraft 2 or Broodwar are a lot less about promoting an idea than the medium of a book or a movie.
If games change the way people think about things, they are responsible for the promotion of the idea and the destruction of the idea they replaced. As Falling eloquently put, the idea that a video game could survive the Next Big Title was destroyed with the events that followed SC2. I do not agree at all that games stimulate people less or change their behaviour less than movies or books, and I think that the degree that games influence peoples way of thinking will even increase as time advances. The degree that SC2 or BW did this specifically can and will be argued about, but I think that one can justifiedly despise SC2 for some of it's design choices.
I think you can really destroy an idea only by limiting it's exposure. I also didn't mean to say that games as a medium for spreading ideas are necessarily worse than books or movies (games are more difficult to execute, but have a lot higher potential in that regard), but rather that the purpose of BW and SC2 is not really on the "idea" side (it's a platform for enterntainment not a statement of some sort). Books and movies are more often used to present ideas, but that's mostly because it's generally easier to do it with them and they are somewhat more limited as mediums. It seems to me that despising a game is somewhat similar to despising hammers because someone bludgeoned someone else to death with one. I also think despise is a rather strong word - "dislike" is pretty much how far I'd let a person go while still being rational. But it's an adjective so it might mean something different to you.
I'm genuinely entertained watching the inevitable end of BW and its fans boycotting sc2 while I sit back and enjoy GSL, Proleague and a bit of OSL when it becomes pure godly sc2.
On June 07 2012 07:36 AsymptoticClimax wrote: I'm genuinely entertained watching the inevitable end of BW and its fans boycotting sc2 while I sit back and enjoy GSL, Proleague and a bit of OSL when it becomes pure godly sc2.
And you talk about people being pathetic in the OGN thread ) the irony.
On June 07 2012 07:36 AsymptoticClimax wrote: I'm genuinely entertained watching the inevitable end of BW and its fans boycotting sc2 while I sit back and enjoy GSL, Proleague and a bit of OSL when it becomes pure godly sc2.
I feel as if there is quite a bit of truth in this statement.
On June 07 2012 07:36 AsymptoticClimax wrote: I'm genuinely entertained watching the inevitable end of BW and its fans boycotting sc2 while I sit back and enjoy GSL, Proleague and a bit of OSL when it becomes pure godly sc2.
And you talk about people being pathetic in the OGN thread ) the irony.
Well yeah, but for being subjective without any conclusive cases. anyhow I need to stop reading through these BW vs SC2 threads and arguments because they're driving me mad! T_T
Games like these are popular is because they are 'easy-to-learn, hard-to-master'. If you do not believe SC2 is hard to master, why do you think we are always seeing the same couple of names at the top-tier which the mid-tier pros struggle to break into?
Great article, but I feel he's ignorant and biased when it comes to the eSports scene. He has a very Asian way of thinking (ofc he's Korean... And not to say I don't love Asians ;D) which is closed off and without much integration. SC2 didn't take off in Korea because Korea didn't want it to take off. Just like the Chinese wc3 scene ruled the world while Korea's BW scene dominated. That doesn't give China a right to say that BW is boring, and vice versa. SC2 was and is more popular in the foreign scene, and Korea is no longer dominant because the Koreans did not transfer infrastructure. Simply put, they didn't learn from their BW days much, and so they kinda had to start fresh with the new scene.
Once Korean companies join in, Korea will have a lot of SC2 revenue, but if Korea decides the game is not for them, then that's their decision and the rest of the world will take all the Korean pro gamers.
EPT
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