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On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote:
A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination.
hahaha
Sorry, but this makes no sense, especially the last line. Actually comparing that to racism is just plain dumb and irresponsible.
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Broodwar fans have no respect at all, flaming john for no reason.
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On June 06 2012 01:00 SaWse wrote:
Broodwar fans have no respect at all, flaming john for no reason.
Did you see his post, it is just very wrong, those things are not even comparable
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On June 06 2012 01:00 SaWse wrote:
Broodwar fans have no respect at all, flaming john for no reason.
if you open your eyes you would see the reason.
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On June 05 2012 15:34 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:22 Hundisilm wrote:On June 05 2012 14:03 mustaju wrote:On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote:
A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination. I call bullshit. Despising games for destroying ideas and ideals is a valid source of emotion. It's not supposed to put a game above others. It's supposed to give opinions about worrying trends, and through criticism improve them, which is what a lot of the "BW-elitist" crowd are trying to do. Your "True gamer" monicker makes your argument even worse, and I despise you as a human being for comparing differences in opinion about games to ideas that have caused ethnicide. I might have been too harsh, in my wording, but you REALLY pissed me off. I agree it's probably not very accurate to say it's equally as bad as them 'ism's. There are a some similarities, but you can't really put them quite on the same level of stupid (they are on entirely different levels of stupid). I'm kind of curious though, how can a game destroy ideas and ideals? Wouldn't it be the people who play it or other entities rather than an inanimate piece of code (maybe you can elaborate a bit on what you mean by a game destroying ideas). On another off-topic thing - I can't really say I find it particularly interesting or surprising that similar reactions pop up to League of Legends from Starcraft 2 community than from Broodwar community to Starcraft 2. It seems like a rather normal reaction in our current state of society (I would've rather been surprised if it didn't happen to be honest). I'm curious though - do people think the reaction from Starcraft 2 to League of Legends is correct or the reaction from Broodwar to Starcraft 2 is wrong? A game is more than a piece of code, it's an interactive experience for the gamer. Games can either promote or destroy ideas or ideals, like any art or entertainment medium, and the same arguments that can be used for games can be used for the others. Isn't a movie a roll of film? Isn't a book a few sheets of paper? Don't these things promote ideas and lead to the destruction of others?
Ok, I think I get what you mean - I don't think I quite agree with it though. They can probably promote an idea, but not really destroy another one. You can probably despise something for promoting a bad idea, but even then a game like Starcraft 2 or Broodwar are a lot less about promoting an idea than the medium of a book or a movie.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:12 Hundisilm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 15:34 mustaju wrote:On June 05 2012 15:22 Hundisilm wrote:On June 05 2012 14:03 mustaju wrote:On June 05 2012 11:50 JunkkaGom wrote:
A true gamer should never despise a game or its fans.
Such act will not put 'your' game above other games.
It is equally as bad as racism, sexism or any other discrimination. I call bullshit. Despising games for destroying ideas and ideals is a valid source of emotion. It's not supposed to put a game above others. It's supposed to give opinions about worrying trends, and through criticism improve them, which is what a lot of the "BW-elitist" crowd are trying to do. Your "True gamer" monicker makes your argument even worse, and I despise you as a human being for comparing differences in opinion about games to ideas that have caused ethnicide. I might have been too harsh, in my wording, but you REALLY pissed me off. I agree it's probably not very accurate to say it's equally as bad as them 'ism's. There are a some similarities, but you can't really put them quite on the same level of stupid (they are on entirely different levels of stupid). I'm kind of curious though, how can a game destroy ideas and ideals? Wouldn't it be the people who play it or other entities rather than an inanimate piece of code (maybe you can elaborate a bit on what you mean by a game destroying ideas). On another off-topic thing - I can't really say I find it particularly interesting or surprising that similar reactions pop up to League of Legends from Starcraft 2 community than from Broodwar community to Starcraft 2. It seems like a rather normal reaction in our current state of society (I would've rather been surprised if it didn't happen to be honest). I'm curious though - do people think the reaction from Starcraft 2 to League of Legends is correct or the reaction from Broodwar to Starcraft 2 is wrong? A game is more than a piece of code, it's an interactive experience for the gamer. Games can either promote or destroy ideas or ideals, like any art or entertainment medium, and the same arguments that can be used for games can be used for the others. Isn't a movie a roll of film? Isn't a book a few sheets of paper? Don't these things promote ideas and lead to the destruction of others? Ok, I think I get what you mean - I don't think I quite agree with it though. They can probably promote an idea, but not really destroy another one. You can probably despise something for promoting a bad idea, but even then a game like Starcraft 2 or Broodwar are a lot less about promoting an idea than the medium of a book or a movie.
If games change the way people think about things, they are responsible for the promotion of the idea and the destruction of the idea they replaced. As Falling eloquently put, the idea that a video game could survive the Next Big Title was destroyed with the events that followed SC2. I do not agree at all that games stimulate people less or change their behaviour less than movies or books, and I think that the degree that games influence peoples way of thinking will even increase as time advances.
The degree that SC2 or BW did this specifically can and will be argued about, but I think that one can justifiedly despise SC2 for some of it's design choices.
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I just love how everyone in this thread dogpiled on John for making a hyperbolic post comparing people disrepecting each others games to racism or whatever, and everyone here mentions how BW transcending gaming itself or other such wishy-washy nonsense.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On June 06 2012 03:46 Calis5 wrote:
I just love how everyone in this thread dogpiled on John for making a hyperbolic post comparing people disrepecting each others games to racism or whatever, and everyone here mentions how BW transcending gaming itself or other such wishy-washy nonsense.
I don't see any irony in this.
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On June 06 2012 03:46 Calis5 wrote:
I just love how everyone in this thread dogpiled on John for making a hyperbolic post comparing people disrepecting each others games to racism or whatever, and everyone here mentions how BW transcending gaming itself or other such wishy-washy nonsense.
Being a big name means jack when he makes such an asinine statement.
And isn't that what all that supposed "bringing ESPORTS to the mainstream" so prevalent today all about? If anything, those people are wishy-washy for calling us fools to believe in such things while trying to do the same themselves. Two-faced much?
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There is no discussing that League of Legends is the 'reserved for the disabled' spot of the great parking of e-sports.
It is by far the simplest game to have ever been played at high level and yeah, seeing it getting big in Korea is a worrying trend. I don't mind playing casual games to have fun, but I would mind turning an esports tv channel (dreaming) on and seeing League of Legends be played, just like I would mind turning a sports channel on and seeing football be played with no goalkeeper.
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On June 06 2012 17:58 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote:
There is no discussing that League of Legends is the 'reserved for the disabled' spot of the great parking of e-sports.
It is by far the simplest game to have ever been played at high level and yeah, seeing it getting big in Korea is a worrying trend. I don't mind playing casual games to have fun, but I would mind turning an esports tv channel (dreaming) on and seeing League of Legends be played, just like I would mind turning a sports channel on and seeing football be played with no goalkeeper.
this is how we feel about sc2.
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On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
Best post in the thread. I would call this The BW "elitist" Manifesto, and every SC2 fan should read this to understand the BW fan's point of view.
With the demise of professional Brood War, there is more than just a game falling down. It's the culture on programing, replaced by the idea of ESPORTS, which I see as nothing more as advertising at the service of Blizzard and sponsors, at the expense of providing the highest possible competitive gameplay.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
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On June 06 2012 21:14 VManOfMana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs.
No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that.
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On June 06 2012 22:45 Calis5 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 21:14 VManOfMana wrote:On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up. I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs. No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that.
You are not famous so I don't trust you . I trust Carmac <3
Source
http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/33749-Carmac_it_was_hard_to_drop_Quake_Live
Carmac
"If my personal feelings about a game were important, Quake Live would still be in the Intel Extreme Masters (-; ” I think League of Legends is a game with a lot of potential, with a publisher that understands e-sports and is doing a lot to support League of Legends as an e-sports title. Take the DreamHack tournament (Season 1 finals) – how many other publishers do you see putting up $100,000 in prize money for their tournaments? I myself haven´t played League of Legends enough to have an well-grounded opinion on the gameplay. I spent most of my free time trying to become good at StarCraft II for RotterdaM University  . Now that the show is over for me, I can try League of Legends."
Well this is my personal preference however I like games that don't force feed themselves in to other countries violating the laws of advertisement in the said country(korea) if you didn't catch it . You know sc2 wasn't that bad because I think blizzard did spend a lot hyping sc2 in korea and sadly it didn't catch up as much as LoL did to the korean crowd.
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On June 06 2012 21:14 VManOfMana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up.
I have nothing against LOL or anything but this is distinctly wrong. League's emergence is nothing like how BW started, if anything LOL's system shared more with DOTA2's million dollar tourny and SC2's ESPORTZZZ hype advertisment.
If any scene is similar to how BW was back in early 2000s it would be the fighting game community.
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On June 06 2012 22:52 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:45 Calis5 wrote:On June 06 2012 21:14 VManOfMana wrote:On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up. I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs. No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that. You are not famous so I don't trust you . I trust Carmac <3 Source http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/33749-Carmac_it_was_hard_to_drop_Quake_Live
CarmacShow nested quote +"If my personal feelings about a game were important, Quake Live would still be in the Intel Extreme Masters (-; ” I think League of Legends is a game with a lot of potential, with a publisher that understands e-sports and is doing a lot to support League of Legends as an e-sports title. Take the DreamHack tournament (Season 1 finals) – how many other publishers do you see putting up $100,000 in prize money for their tournaments? I myself haven´t played League of Legends enough to have an well-grounded opinion on the gameplay. I spent most of my free time trying to become good at StarCraft II for RotterdaM University . Now that the show is over for me, I can try League of Legends." Well this is my personal preference however I like games that don't force feed themselves in to other countries violating the laws of advertisement in the said country(korea) if you didn't catch it . You know sc2 wasn't that bad because I think blizzard did spend a lot hyping sc2 in korea and sadly it didn't catch up as much as LoL did to the korean crowd.
You mean koreans dont like paying for expensive games and instead like to play free games? What a shocker!
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On June 06 2012 22:57 Calis5 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:52 Sawamura wrote:On June 06 2012 22:45 Calis5 wrote:On June 06 2012 21:14 VManOfMana wrote:On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up. I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs. No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that. You are not famous so I don't trust you . I trust Carmac <3 Source http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/33749-Carmac_it_was_hard_to_drop_Quake_Live
Carmac"If my personal feelings about a game were important, Quake Live would still be in the Intel Extreme Masters (-; ” I think League of Legends is a game with a lot of potential, with a publisher that understands e-sports and is doing a lot to support League of Legends as an e-sports title. Take the DreamHack tournament (Season 1 finals) – how many other publishers do you see putting up $100,000 in prize money for their tournaments? I myself haven´t played League of Legends enough to have an well-grounded opinion on the gameplay. I spent most of my free time trying to become good at StarCraft II for RotterdaM University . Now that the show is over for me, I can try League of Legends." Well this is my personal preference however I like games that don't force feed themselves in to other countries violating the laws of advertisement in the said country(korea) if you didn't catch it . You know sc2 wasn't that bad because I think blizzard did spend a lot hyping sc2 in korea and sadly it didn't catch up as much as LoL did to the korean crowd. You mean koreans dont like paying for expensive games and instead like to play free games? What a shocker!
Why pay for sc2 when I can play mmo games and spend time with girl friend in pc bang ?
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On June 06 2012 22:57 Calis5 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 22:52 Sawamura wrote:On June 06 2012 22:45 Calis5 wrote:On June 06 2012 21:14 VManOfMana wrote:On June 05 2012 08:25 Falling wrote:
I don't know specifically what he was thinking, but with the death of BW comes the death of an idea. And that idea, held by many BW fans, was that a computer game could actually outlive the Next New Game cycle. And to some extent it did, but there was something very fascinating about the Korean pro teams is they had actually turned it into a sport that a full decade after release they were still playing the same game, discovering new strategies, and pushing the limits of competitiveness. We were proud of the longevity in one game outlasting RTS after RTS. The next newest game with flashy graphics and new mechanics and new 'improvements' would rise up and come crumbling down because nothing could match BW.
And I think that's why "lol, it's so old" rankles so much. The next newest thing wasn't as high a value as the best of the best game. And even if SC2 is the best RTS of this decade, BW fading kills the old idea. It moves it more to DJ Wheat's "I don't care what game it is" mentality. And I agree in principle. I don't begrudge the success of FPS or Fighter games or MOBA's. But I don't particularly care for competitive gamers that switch from game to game being the best at them all. I care about the gamers of the games I'm interested in. And I care about BW gamers. If BW had lasted 3 decades of stable tournaments and sponsorships, I think that is a more powerful testament to progaming then jumping ship at the newest game every 5 years. And I think that's the idea that will die with BW.
It should be also added that BW fans like LOL because its scene is being built in a similar fashion to BW programing: from the bottom up. I agree, Riot forcing their way into tournaments like IEM and displacing Quake Live and spending thousands of their own dollars is totally similar to a bunch of koreans back in 98 throwing tournaments in PC bangs. No actually, BW fans like LoL because it isnt SC2 even though LoL takes even less skill than SC2. But you hate SC2 so much that you look past that. You are not famous so I don't trust you . I trust Carmac <3 Source http://www.sk-gaming.com/content/33749-Carmac_it_was_hard_to_drop_Quake_Live
Carmac"If my personal feelings about a game were important, Quake Live would still be in the Intel Extreme Masters (-; ” I think League of Legends is a game with a lot of potential, with a publisher that understands e-sports and is doing a lot to support League of Legends as an e-sports title. Take the DreamHack tournament (Season 1 finals) – how many other publishers do you see putting up $100,000 in prize money for their tournaments? I myself haven´t played League of Legends enough to have an well-grounded opinion on the gameplay. I spent most of my free time trying to become good at StarCraft II for RotterdaM University . Now that the show is over for me, I can try League of Legends." Well this is my personal preference however I like games that don't force feed themselves in to other countries violating the laws of advertisement in the said country(korea) if you didn't catch it . You know sc2 wasn't that bad because I think blizzard did spend a lot hyping sc2 in korea and sadly it didn't catch up as much as LoL did to the korean crowd. You mean koreans dont like paying for expensive games and instead like to play free games? What a shocker!
SCToo should've taken a hint...
Oh wait, they did, and it still flopped.
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So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
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On June 06 2012 23:02 Calis5 wrote:
So what you two are saying is, that no matter what game, it only becomes successful if its free? What does that say about Korea?
Well they are pretty smart since they can spend their hard earn money on other things beside sc2 . So in my book they are pretty wise.
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EPT
