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On May 29 2012 15:40 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 14:45 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 14:25 Sawamura wrote:On May 29 2012 14:15 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 13:45 jpak wrote:On May 29 2012 13:37 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote:
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident.
KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize That's....actually kind of fucked up. In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy. Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value. Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck? this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea . Am I the crazy one here? I'm not so sure about baseball bats but the general idea is that your parents believe that in some situations behaving a certain way is optimal so they discipline you hoping you would realise that or intimidate you into doing things a certain way until you know better. If you were some random kid they wouldn't care. It seems to have worked in many cases(much more widespread than what westerners believe). I've never actually heard anyone resent thier parents as a result of this and act in a rebellious like american kids on TV (just an observation). Most just... knew better when they got older.
Don't pretend corporal punishment never existed in any country, it's as relevant as how strict the environment is, in army training regardless of age range / area it's a virtual necessity. S.Korea and other asian countries have gotten way better at it in recent years. And the cause is very strict and competitive social life, not cultural bias FOR corporal punishment.
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Thank you for translation. I started wtaching Proleague way after he retired, which makes me a sad panda. Wish I could see the amazing Bat Coach in action! A little bat persuasion is not a bad thing, unless its a full scale combo agression.
He sure spoke his mind on a lot of things and I respect him for that, Definitely agree with the grassroots argument and the watchabilty of sctoo. Also, this:
On May 29 2012 18:36 shadymmj wrote:
this guy knows what he is talking about so it should be spotlighted
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On May 29 2012 18:57 Caihead wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 15:40 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 29 2012 14:45 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 14:25 Sawamura wrote:On May 29 2012 14:15 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 13:45 jpak wrote:On May 29 2012 13:37 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote:
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident.
KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize That's....actually kind of fucked up. In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy. Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value. Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck? this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea . Am I the crazy one here? I'm not so sure about baseball bats but the general idea is that your parents believe that in some situations behaving a certain way is optimal so they discipline you hoping you would realise that or intimidate you into doing things a certain way until you know better. If you were some random kid they wouldn't care. It seems to have worked in many cases(much more widespread than what westerners believe). I've never actually heard anyone resent thier parents as a result of this and act in a rebellious like american kids on TV (just an observation). Most just... knew better when they got older. Don't pretend corporal punishment never existed in any country, it's as relevant as how strict the environment is, in army training regardless of age range / area it's a virtual necessity. S.Korea and other asian countries have gotten way better at it in recent years. And the cause is very strict and competitive social life, not cultural bias FOR corporal punishment.
Where the hell did I say any of that. I never said it didn't happen elsewhere but in the modern day environment it happens a hell of a lot more often and in more places than a westerner thinks. I did not compare it to anything else. When I said they "knew better" I meant they understood why they got whacked as a kid and didn't hold a grudge against thier parents like every other freakin asian in the history of mankind. Ribbon asked a question and I told him the reasoning behind why it is a tradition.... or the so often claimed reason anyway.
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The bit about how he handled Nal_Ra seeemed really strange to me. Perhaps its the translation. Perhaps by 'reputation' the word confidence should be used...as basing his treatment of a player on what other players think of him is odd.
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and he slaps down sc2^^ nice interview tho, thx 
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Jung Soo-yeong is a closed minded old fool who doesn't believe in change.
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I think some of you need to cool off a bit.
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On May 29 2012 19:19 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 18:57 Caihead wrote:On May 29 2012 15:40 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 29 2012 14:45 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 14:25 Sawamura wrote:On May 29 2012 14:15 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 13:45 jpak wrote:On May 29 2012 13:37 Ribbon wrote:On May 29 2012 12:43 GTR wrote:
10) KTF coach's baseball bat incident.
KTF coach's nickname is "Bat Jung" There was talk before that the coach physically punished his players with a baseball bat when they lost. It was only a rumor until Garimto posted on the internet that the coach sometimes does this to help the players concentrate. Werid thing is the KTF coach never came to defend his position. This incident led to a whole series of fanpics and jokes like that KTF players get locked up in the basement if they loose and that if they won they get a 1 week "no-bat" prize That's....actually kind of fucked up. In korean society, that was perfectly normal. Only recently (like in the past 3-4 years I think?) have there been stricter measures to stop such abuse by teachers and team coaches. Thank cell phone technology for that. Kids with cell phones started recording such beatings and uploading them to the internet. Nowadays there is debate on whether to give such authority figures freedom to continue such corporal punishment in some form or abolish it altogether. The answer might seem obvious to a westerner, but changing a long-standing tradition that is considered a form of discipline is not easy. Beating children with a baseball bat because they lost in a video game is not a cultural value. Stork wants a players union because the BW maps are half-assed, but the physical assault of players is cool? What the fuck? this year osl maps were bad because apparently kespa do not give a damn about the bw scene any more when they refuse to invest time in creating new maps for the osl . I don't see where jpak says abusing players physically is cool however maybe it's a tradition thing where people bash people up to show discipline in korea . Am I the crazy one here? I'm not so sure about baseball bats but the general idea is that your parents believe that in some situations behaving a certain way is optimal so they discipline you hoping you would realise that or intimidate you into doing things a certain way until you know better. If you were some random kid they wouldn't care. It seems to have worked in many cases(much more widespread than what westerners believe). I've never actually heard anyone resent thier parents as a result of this and act in a rebellious like american kids on TV (just an observation). Most just... knew better when they got older. Don't pretend corporal punishment never existed in any country, it's as relevant as how strict the environment is, in army training regardless of age range / area it's a virtual necessity. S.Korea and other asian countries have gotten way better at it in recent years. And the cause is very strict and competitive social life, not cultural bias FOR corporal punishment. Where the hell did I say any of that. I never said it didn't happen elsewhere but in the modern day environment it happens a hell of a lot more often and in more places than a westerner thinks. I did not compare it to anything else. When I said they "knew better" I meant they understood why they got whacked as a kid and didn't hold a grudge against thier parents like every other freakin asian in the history of mankind. Ribbon asked a question and I told him the reasoning behind why it is a tradition.... or the so often claimed reason anyway.
meant to quote you along with the person before you. wasn't rebutting you
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What an old school baller, I agree with him that SC2 isn't as great to watch but not for the same reasons. He criticizes SC2 for not being casual friendly to watch because it's harder to understand? On the contrary SC2 is too easy to watch with too many types of non-micro intensive army balls attacking into each other.
There is no mutalisk micro, no shuttle reaver micro, etc for example. Sc2's units are just terribly boring and games are getting bland to watch especially due to the numerous amount of tournaments/streams out there. Compare this to BW where we know it takes tremendous skill already to overcome the crappy UI to micro and macro well, in addition to seeing great units being used intelligently that don't have their equivalent in SC2(spider mines is the biggest missing piece in my opinion, the lack of viable mech play), BW is actually more complex while SC2 is more straightforward to watch.
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Such a great read thanks for taking the time to post this up! I really enjoy hearing about the BW coaches of the past please keep them coming! :D
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On May 29 2012 22:08 Gebus wrote:
Jung Soo-yeong is a closed minded old fool who doesn't believe in change.
what's the problem if people want to stay with the better one?
a change is always welcome, but it has to be a change to better, not a change to worse.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
omg this guy, i nearly forgot about him lol. god i miss the old KT days even though they never won a single grand finals (ARGHH SKT!! lol)
sucks that his sons friends make fun of him for being the son of baseball bat jung lol, wtf. i would be like my dad achieved longest proleague win streak with KTF, TAKE THAT NOOBS.
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it's wrong to say that sc2 isn't fun to watch. TvT and TvZ are kool enuff.
it's even more wrong (if not completely ridiculous) to say that BW isn't endlessly funnier and better to watch than sc2. great words coach.
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On May 29 2012 22:50 bubblegumbo wrote:
What an old school baller, I agree with him that SC2 isn't as great to watch but not for the same reasons. He criticizes SC2 for not being casual friendly to watch because it's harder to understand? On the contrary SC2 is too easy to watch with too many types of non-micro intensive army balls attacking into each other.
There is no mutalisk micro, no shuttle reaver micro, etc for example. Sc2's units are just terribly boring and games are getting bland to watch especially due to the numerous amount of tournaments/streams out there. Compare this to BW where we know it takes tremendous skill already to overcome the crappy UI to micro and macro well, in addition to seeing great units being used intelligently that don't have their equivalent in SC2(spider mines is the biggest missing piece in my opinion, the lack of viable mech play), BW is actually more complex while SC2 is more straightforward to watch.
Disagree. When i first watched proBW in 2009 i had no idea what dragoons reavers and ultralisks were but it didn't matter because it is clear what is going on. Later on when i slowly learn't a bit more i began to appreciate other aspects like mechanics.
This isn't the case with SC2. I know starcraft and SC2 makes me go "what the shit?" too often. Your points about UI and such make SC2 easier to play as opposed to easier to spectate.
The viewer demographic for BW is incredibly wide 3y olds - 70y olds. For SC2? 14y olds to <30's gamer nerds.
BW is more casual friendly.
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On May 29 2012 23:32 stevewch wrote:
what's the problem if people want to stay with the better one?
a change is always welcome, but it has to be a change to better, not a change to worse.
the problem is things like this- "Even if I returned, I know the kingdom of E-sports from the glory days will never return." and "When compared to BW, the biggest difference is that SC2 just isn't fun to watch" he has no proof to say things like that, just assuming that because he doesn't like watching sc2 that it will never become as popular as brood war.
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is awesome32280 Posts
On May 29 2012 10:05 altered wrote:
IMO the one thing that made BW so amazing is the evolution it went trough. From Boxer to Flash there happened so much to the way BW is played. I remember when i first started regurarly watching pro BW (around 2007) one of the thoughts that really amazed me was: "wow, they are still playing BW and they have gotten that good". Another highlight as a casual BW player and regular BW spectator was when the Fantasy build got popular. The fact that after so many years and already established meta/standard game someone came up with such a fresh and exciting startegy (that worked) just reinforced my love for BW even more.
Now im not saying SC2 couldnt have such a evolution and become as great as BW too. The problem i have with SC2 is that i get the feeling that Blizzard has a idea of how SC2 should be played and they are patching according to it. So pros dont have that possibility to discover something new because if they did it would get patched.
One thing in this interview really hit the spot for me and that was when he said that BW was made by a foreign company (Blizzard ofc) but that the e-sport was created by us (South Koreans).
Players like Boxer, Oov, Savior, Bisu, Fantasy, Flash and many more have made BW so awesome because they reached skill levels that werent imaginable before or because they found ways to play that werent predicted by Blizzard.
Just imagine Blizzard would have controlled the way BW had to be played like they do with SC2, all the above mentioned players would be faceless.
I followed SC2 with passion in its first year or so and i remember there was a patch where Blizz nerfed thors and defended their decision with the argument that they dont want thors to be a massable unit. That was a huge turn off to me because suddendly i got the feeling that Blizz made the game for themselves and not for the community and esports.
This are reasons why i as a spectator cant really be passionate about SC2 for the pros and teams there is ofcourse also that element of uncertainty that comes with SC2 being released in episodes and being patched all the time. Would you want to make the very risky decision to give up school to become a pro in a game that will change totally in 2 years?
Another statement was "SC2 is not fun to watch". While i agree with posters before me who said that this is a subjective statement, there is still a little truth in it. Blizzard somehow got the idea that for a game to become a esport it needs to get rid of all randomness. This may be true to a certain degree (especially from the perspective of a skilled pro player) but from a spectators point of view this is false. Just think about reavers, that moment when the scarab starts to fly towards a clump of workers. There is so much tension in this moment when you dont know if it will do damage or not and its a important reason why people are excited about BW. In SC2 such moments dont really exist.
Its not a coincidence that football wich has a lot of randomness has much more viewers than chess. For outsiders (people who dont play the sport themselves) these random moments are what make them excited about the sport. When a underdog wins against Barca, during the penalty shootouts or when a ball touches the net in tennis and you dont know on wich side it lands these are the moments that let emotions come up and its what the casual viewers like the most.
Edit:
Dont misunderstand me, i dont hate SC2 or find it totally boring (i still love to watch MLG for example). But i kinda feel its still in beta and will be until legacy of the void is out.
Nice post. I agree with a lot of things you say.
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thanks for the translation, i love gems like that.
i remember back then when people made fun of the bat coach :D good old days!
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I think coach is uninformed about SC2 to some extent. It's easier to play and easier on the eyes when playing. But as a spectator watching a SD stream it's hard to follow what's going on. SC2 has potential but it's not working right now. No matter how much Jaedong of Flash you throw at it, unless the game becomes good I'd much rather have the 2008/09 season of SPL.
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On May 29 2012 23:41 FATJESUSONABIKE wrote:
it's wrong to say that sc2 isn't fun to watch. TvT and TvZ are kool enuff.
it's even more wrong (if not completely ridiculous) to say that BW isn't endlessly funnier and better to watch than sc2. great words coach.
Keep banging your head against a wall, you'll enjoy more matchups in Sc2.
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What does he mean by "train them Jung Soo Yeong" style?
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EPT
