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On May 06 2012 08:55 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 06:10 Garmer wrote:On May 06 2012 05:16 Release wrote:On May 06 2012 04:44 Bijan wrote:On May 06 2012 04:07 Taku wrote:
Not unprecedented, Boxer and the others were the trailblazers in setting up an established scene with BW, and did it way more efficiently through sweat and blood rather than just having suits throw money at people. I think the Koreans playing SC2 work just as hard as their BW counterparts. Most of them came from the BW scene anyway and run their practice houses in the same way. i doubt it. The SC2 from the BW scene are just the people who failed at the BW scene (probably for not trying as hard). The best person right now from BW is MVP, whose greatest accomplishment in recent time was the hanadaetoo ro8. failed is not the right term here, some of them just past their prime due to ages, u can't say that boxer and nada failed in BW, come on... Point is code S player list is like looking at OSL prelims list for a lot of us.
Aren't top tier players like Bisu in the OSL prelims?
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On May 06 2012 07:59 Bijan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 07:00 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On May 06 2012 06:42 Bijan wrote:On May 06 2012 05:16 Release wrote:On May 06 2012 04:44 Bijan wrote:On May 06 2012 04:07 Taku wrote:
Not unprecedented, Boxer and the others were the trailblazers in setting up an established scene with BW, and did it way more efficiently through sweat and blood rather than just having suits throw money at people. I think the Koreans playing SC2 work just as hard as their BW counterparts. Most of them came from the BW scene anyway and run their practice houses in the same way. i doubt it. The SC2 from the BW scene are just the people who failed at the BW scene (probably for not trying as hard). The best person right now from BW is MVP, whose greatest accomplishment in recent time was the hanadaetoo ro8. That's absurd. There may not be as much money in salaries but there is a lot of money in the prize pool of the GSL, more than in OSL/MSL. It's ridiculous to think that players that came from the same culture of esports wouldn't train as hard with those incentives. And really, those SC2 players may have been "failed" BW pros but they wouldn't even have been on a team if they didn't show the work ethic expected of a licensed pro-gamer. On May 06 2012 04:51 sCCrooked wrote:BW hardcores amd sc2 hardcores will never see eye-to-eye. I'm sure most of them think that BW is a superior sport but many do not completely look down on SC2. ? You can't think X is superior without thinking Y is inferior Clearly not. I merely meant that there are plenty of BW fans who still gain enjoyment from watching SC2. sCCrooked makes it sound like a true BW fan has to hate SC2 and I know that is not the case for everyone. For example, I consider myself a hardcore SC2 fan, but I do watch a bit of BW streams and Korean tournaments when I have the time. I especially like to look up old matches of the heroes of BW history. I consider BW to be a superior game but I still love SC2.
The thing is every true BW fan doesn't give a rats ass about sc2, the reason why there is hatred is because we think a superior product is being replaced by something inferior. Logically yes we know sponsors blah blah blah but when something inferior that you don't care for is killing(sc2 is definitely not getting more popular because BW is dwindling, not in Korea at least) your product, a true fan should hate it. No exceptions. Obviously this doesn't apply to you since you care for sc2.
On the point of TONS of money in sc2. You must be new to european ESPORTS. Let me guess you only really started following ESPORTS after sc2 and only read hype. Hate to break it to you but before sc2 tournaments didn't pay out thier prizes and they still don't according to tournament winners. Only a few have income and thats from sus sources that who don't really have a clean history e.g EG.
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On May 06 2012 09:22 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 08:55 ShadeR wrote:On May 06 2012 06:10 Garmer wrote:On May 06 2012 05:16 Release wrote:On May 06 2012 04:44 Bijan wrote:On May 06 2012 04:07 Taku wrote:
Not unprecedented, Boxer and the others were the trailblazers in setting up an established scene with BW, and did it way more efficiently through sweat and blood rather than just having suits throw money at people. I think the Koreans playing SC2 work just as hard as their BW counterparts. Most of them came from the BW scene anyway and run their practice houses in the same way. i doubt it. The SC2 from the BW scene are just the people who failed at the BW scene (probably for not trying as hard). The best person right now from BW is MVP, whose greatest accomplishment in recent time was the hanadaetoo ro8. failed is not the right term here, some of them just past their prime due to ages, u can't say that boxer and nada failed in BW, come on... Point is code S player list is like looking at OSL prelims list for a lot of us. Aren't top tier players like Bisu in the OSL prelims?
I highlighted the key portions of your statement. Also, yay another SC2 vs BW shit thread.
Back on subject: I don't know what I'll do. I don't play StarCraft anymore, so the end of Proleague/OSL is basically the death of BW for me.
TL's my home now, I can't exactly leave... but there's going to be less to do here. I suppose in time the SC2 LR threads will improve and I can go spam those, but for now my plans will probably involve a lot of lurking.
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On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it.
this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene.
which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first?
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On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first?
I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse?
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On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse?
He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game.
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....wtf i came back to read about what people are doing post bw, and i get 3 pages of sc2 vs bw. I've already read enough on this and i simply just dont care which is better, i just wanna watch some bw. plz just dont feed haters(on both sides) and lets turn this thread back to what its meant to be
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On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game.
What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War.
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On May 06 2012 10:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game. What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War.
neither of those. it was not built on the principles that made BW successful. neither was it built to last. if sc2 is accessible to casual players then why is the ladder all but dead except at the highest ranks? most people i know abandoned the game.
but for BW you could just hop into a BGH for many years and not give a shit about ranks and stuff - just making a big army to own.
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On May 06 2012 11:06 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game. What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War. neither of those. it was not built on the principles that made BW successful. neither was it built to last. if sc2 is accessible to casual players then why is the ladder all but dead except at the highest ranks? most people i know abandoned the game. but for BW you could just hop into a BGH for many years and not give a shit about ranks and stuff - just making a big army to own.
I kinda see what your getting at, it's fun to goof around in BW. But the point about the ladder is very strange. In the last ladder season, the top ranks consisted of 4% of the players, a vast majority of ladderers are low ranks. It doesn't take very long to queue up an equally matched opponent. I love the ladder, it works quite nice for getting better at the game, especially for those who like ICCUP for BW.
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On May 06 2012 10:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game. What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War.
Investing heavily on the hope that it will get better later on makes no sense.
Switching to a new game without knowing if it is fit for competition makes no sense. Playing a game competitively while it is being patched is sketchy considering blizzard only has a good balancing record with BW. Using win rates under a match making system to judge blanace is honestly one of the most retarded thing I've heard about. No one should fail this hard at logic.
Telling people to spend even more time on sc2 and wait for it to become better makes absolutely no sense.
Having tournaments without LAN is ridiculously stupid. One of the first tournaments I went to got ip banned by Blizzard because of some technical screw up.
During the early stages of sc2 everything was done because people assumed it would become like BW in Korea. A lot of the hype for casuals was that they getting a head start on a game that might become BW. No one waited to see if the game was interesting before dumping ridculous amounts of effort into the community. This is refering to the early days of the game before it was patched and everyone was bitching about sc2 strongly favouring stupid play.
Putting effort into going pro at this point in time is a hell of a lot more sensible than before. The amount of crap happening at luanch was just people getting hyped.
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On May 06 2012 11:29 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 10:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game. What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War. Investing heavily on the hope that it will get better later on makes no sense. Switching to a new game without knowing if it is fit for competition makes no sense. Playing a game competitively while it is being patched is sketchy considering blizzard only has a good balancing record with BW. Using win rates under a match making system to judge blanace is honestly one of the most retarded thing I've heard about. No one should fail this hard at logic.Telling people to spend even more time on sc2 and wait for it to become better makes absolutely no sense. Having tournaments without LAN is ridiculously stupid. One of the first tournaments I went to got ip banned by Blizzard because of some technical screw up. During the early stages of sc2 everything was done because people assumed it would become like BW in Korea. A lot of the hype for casuals was that they getting a head start on a game that might become BW. No one waited to see if the game was interesting before dumping ridculous amounts of effort into the community. This is refering to the early days of the game before it was patched and everyone was bitching about sc2 strongly favouring stupid play. Putting effort into going pro at this point in time is a hell of a lot more sensible than before. The amount of crap happening at luanch was just people getting hyped.
Huh? The win rates are based on tournament games listed under the TLPD, ie. a tournament where money is on the line and worthwhile enough for the TL staff to bookkeep. In the most recent month, every matchup is within 48.8%-51.2% with a sample size of 2000+ games, which I would argue is a pretty good balance in the current state. It has nothing to do with matchmaking.
TLDP tournaments
Win rates
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 06 2012 11:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 11:29 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game. What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War. Investing heavily on the hope that it will get better later on makes no sense. Switching to a new game without knowing if it is fit for competition makes no sense. Playing a game competitively while it is being patched is sketchy considering blizzard only has a good balancing record with BW. Using win rates under a match making system to judge blanace is honestly one of the most retarded thing I've heard about. No one should fail this hard at logic.Telling people to spend even more time on sc2 and wait for it to become better makes absolutely no sense. Having tournaments without LAN is ridiculously stupid. One of the first tournaments I went to got ip banned by Blizzard because of some technical screw up. During the early stages of sc2 everything was done because people assumed it would become like BW in Korea. A lot of the hype for casuals was that they getting a head start on a game that might become BW. No one waited to see if the game was interesting before dumping ridculous amounts of effort into the community. This is refering to the early days of the game before it was patched and everyone was bitching about sc2 strongly favouring stupid play. Putting effort into going pro at this point in time is a hell of a lot more sensible than before. The amount of crap happening at luanch was just people getting hyped. Huh? The win rates are based on tournament games listed under the TLPD, ie. a tournament where money is on the line and worthwhile enough for the TL staff to bookkeep. In the most recent month, every matchup is within 48.8%-51.2% with a sample size of 2000+ games, which I would argue is a pretty good balance in the current state. It has nothing to do with matchmaking. TLDP tournamentsWin rates + Show Spoiler +
I'm talking about back then Blizzard would point at figures on the ladder and tell us the game was balanced. I don't think I need to point out the problem here. There are also other problems with just using win rates because if you assume that some optimal balance exist indepeendent of all other variables, e.g maps, skill level etc etc then maps shouldn't be a problem.
There are also other tecnical issues like just using a single figure to indicate balance. That would not be how you analyse these things anyway. Generally you would assume the game is balanced and then get an interval of where the win rate should be based on the number of games and then compare that with an actual winrate. It is possible that 52% might actually indicate imbalance or 70% win rate means we can't conclude if the game is imbalanced.
That aside the original point still stands.
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On May 06 2012 12:09 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 11:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 11:29 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game. What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War. Investing heavily on the hope that it will get better later on makes no sense. Switching to a new game without knowing if it is fit for competition makes no sense. Playing a game competitively while it is being patched is sketchy considering blizzard only has a good balancing record with BW. Using win rates under a match making system to judge blanace is honestly one of the most retarded thing I've heard about. No one should fail this hard at logic.Telling people to spend even more time on sc2 and wait for it to become better makes absolutely no sense. Having tournaments without LAN is ridiculously stupid. One of the first tournaments I went to got ip banned by Blizzard because of some technical screw up. During the early stages of sc2 everything was done because people assumed it would become like BW in Korea. A lot of the hype for casuals was that they getting a head start on a game that might become BW. No one waited to see if the game was interesting before dumping ridculous amounts of effort into the community. This is refering to the early days of the game before it was patched and everyone was bitching about sc2 strongly favouring stupid play. Putting effort into going pro at this point in time is a hell of a lot more sensible than before. The amount of crap happening at luanch was just people getting hyped. Huh? The win rates are based on tournament games listed under the TLPD, ie. a tournament where money is on the line and worthwhile enough for the TL staff to bookkeep. In the most recent month, every matchup is within 48.8%-51.2% with a sample size of 2000+ games, which I would argue is a pretty good balance in the current state. It has nothing to do with matchmaking. TLDP tournamentsWin rates + Show Spoiler + I'm talking about back then Blizzard would point at figures on the ladder and tell us the game was balanced. I don't think I need to point out the problem here. There are also other problems with just using win rates because if you assume that some optimal balance exist indepeendent of all other variables, e.g maps, skill level etc etc then maps shouldn't be a problem. There are also other tecnical issues like just using a single figure to indicate balance. That would not be how you analyse these things anyway. Generally you would assume the game is balanced and then get an interval of where the win rate should be based on the number of games and then compare that with an actual winrate. 52% might actually indicate imbalance.
If I recall correctly, that was a report by Blizzard saying that races were getting good representation in tourneys AND at different ranks in ladder. They were trying to say that their was no immediate concern of imbalance in pro and low level play.
Win rates don't prove balance, but it's evidence. Having watched many games, I would say balance is fine right now.
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Please go post about BW vs SC2 in one of the 603 other threads dedicated to it. Seriously, can't there at least be one place I don't have to see this shit?
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On May 06 2012 12:26 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 12:09 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 11:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 11:29 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:On May 06 2012 01:03 shadymmj wrote:
i have zero respect for "gamer nerds" and don't consider myself one; just someone who likes to watch a funny little phenomenon in korea. it's great entertainment and also a very complex game that happens to have a big pro scene. it's like the football of video games, and i also love watching football (english, not american).
see, the thing is that football does not get replaced with football 2, with new offside rules, 12 players to a team and an oddly shaped ball. that is the meaning of a sport. the fundamental rules stay the same. neither are sports primarily created to be watched. they are created to be played.
those are the rules that sc2 broke and those are the reasons that will eventually cause its downfall. im willing to bet that if sc2 did not have starcraft in it, it'd probably sell less than half the copies. gamer nerds get very excited over new games made by big names, shiny graphics, and are constantly showing off their colourful keyboards. they spend a lot of time on many different games. for that reason they will keep hopping on whatever new bandwagon that passes by, and no amount of expansions will halt the advancement of new, shinier bandwagons.
it's sad that the world can no longer appreciate a classic thing. BW had the potential to become immortal like chess, but maybe blizzard and kespa failed to do something about it. while it lasted, BW was not a "esport" like they say, but a REAL sport unique to korea that had its own culture.
oh well. instead of partaking in senseless stupidity like "esports" *cough marketing machines*, id rather drive to the movies, read a book or something. SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years. I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game. What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War. Investing heavily on the hope that it will get better later on makes no sense. Switching to a new game without knowing if it is fit for competition makes no sense. Playing a game competitively while it is being patched is sketchy considering blizzard only has a good balancing record with BW. Using win rates under a match making system to judge blanace is honestly one of the most retarded thing I've heard about. No one should fail this hard at logic.Telling people to spend even more time on sc2 and wait for it to become better makes absolutely no sense. Having tournaments without LAN is ridiculously stupid. One of the first tournaments I went to got ip banned by Blizzard because of some technical screw up. During the early stages of sc2 everything was done because people assumed it would become like BW in Korea. A lot of the hype for casuals was that they getting a head start on a game that might become BW. No one waited to see if the game was interesting before dumping ridculous amounts of effort into the community. This is refering to the early days of the game before it was patched and everyone was bitching about sc2 strongly favouring stupid play. Putting effort into going pro at this point in time is a hell of a lot more sensible than before. The amount of crap happening at luanch was just people getting hyped. Huh? The win rates are based on tournament games listed under the TLPD, ie. a tournament where money is on the line and worthwhile enough for the TL staff to bookkeep. In the most recent month, every matchup is within 48.8%-51.2% with a sample size of 2000+ games, which I would argue is a pretty good balance in the current state. It has nothing to do with matchmaking. TLDP tournamentsWin rates + Show Spoiler + I'm talking about back then Blizzard would point at figures on the ladder and tell us the game was balanced. I don't think I need to point out the problem here. There are also other problems with just using win rates because if you assume that some optimal balance exist indepeendent of all other variables, e.g maps, skill level etc etc then maps shouldn't be a problem. There are also other tecnical issues like just using a single figure to indicate balance. That would not be how you analyse these things anyway. Generally you would assume the game is balanced and then get an interval of where the win rate should be based on the number of games and then compare that with an actual winrate. 52% might actually indicate imbalance. If I recall correctly, that was a report by Blizzard saying that races were getting good representation in tourneys AND at different ranks in ladder. They were trying to say that their was no immediate concern of imbalance in pro and low level play. Win rates don't prove balance, but it's evidence. Having watched many games, I would say balance is fine right now.
No Blizzard wanted people to shut up about balance so they released those graphs. Besides I never commented on actual balance anyway. When people say the sc2 scene is forced they don't mean the game is shit.
He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game.
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On May 06 2012 12:48 TrainSamurai wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 12:26 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 12:09 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 11:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 11:29 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:43 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:38 TrainSamurai wrote:On May 06 2012 10:35 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 06 2012 10:23 shadymmj wrote:On May 06 2012 03:55 densha wrote:
[quote]
SC2 is more than shiny graphics and a big name. Don't forget that there is a TON of money involved right now and that's something that is rather unprecedented. Maybe my eSports history is lacking, but SC2 seems unique in the amount of tournaments it has spawned, the amount of prize money involved, and the amount of spectators watching (at least in the RTS genre for the last point). It just seems much bigger than some new shiny game when you look at the competitive culture that has grown around it in just two years.
I mourn the loss of BW too and am not trying to say you have to enjoy SC2, but I think it's more and more difficult to say SC2 is a passing fad or is only popular because of it's graphics (which aren't even that good compared to other modern games) when looking at the amount of people, organizations, and just plain money involved with it. this money was dumped into the scene without knowing what exactly would happen next. the difference is that BW's scene attracted the sponsors. SC2's sponsors attracted the scene. which is the model you see in sports? did football gain a fanbase first, or rich sponsors first? I don't quite understand what's the conclusion of your argument. Are you saying that SC2 will quickly lose popularity and collapse? He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game. What does that even mean? Do you mean that SC2 was built to be competitive but not fun? If so, I would argue that SC2 is more accessible to casual/semi-casual gamers than Brood War. Investing heavily on the hope that it will get better later on makes no sense. Switching to a new game without knowing if it is fit for competition makes no sense. Playing a game competitively while it is being patched is sketchy considering blizzard only has a good balancing record with BW. Using win rates under a match making system to judge blanace is honestly one of the most retarded thing I've heard about. No one should fail this hard at logic.Telling people to spend even more time on sc2 and wait for it to become better makes absolutely no sense. Having tournaments without LAN is ridiculously stupid. One of the first tournaments I went to got ip banned by Blizzard because of some technical screw up. During the early stages of sc2 everything was done because people assumed it would become like BW in Korea. A lot of the hype for casuals was that they getting a head start on a game that might become BW. No one waited to see if the game was interesting before dumping ridculous amounts of effort into the community. This is refering to the early days of the game before it was patched and everyone was bitching about sc2 strongly favouring stupid play. Putting effort into going pro at this point in time is a hell of a lot more sensible than before. The amount of crap happening at luanch was just people getting hyped. Huh? The win rates are based on tournament games listed under the TLPD, ie. a tournament where money is on the line and worthwhile enough for the TL staff to bookkeep. In the most recent month, every matchup is within 48.8%-51.2% with a sample size of 2000+ games, which I would argue is a pretty good balance in the current state. It has nothing to do with matchmaking. TLDP tournamentsWin rates + Show Spoiler + I'm talking about back then Blizzard would point at figures on the ladder and tell us the game was balanced. I don't think I need to point out the problem here. There are also other problems with just using win rates because if you assume that some optimal balance exist indepeendent of all other variables, e.g maps, skill level etc etc then maps shouldn't be a problem. There are also other tecnical issues like just using a single figure to indicate balance. That would not be how you analyse these things anyway. Generally you would assume the game is balanced and then get an interval of where the win rate should be based on the number of games and then compare that with an actual winrate. 52% might actually indicate imbalance. If I recall correctly, that was a report by Blizzard saying that races were getting good representation in tourneys AND at different ranks in ladder. They were trying to say that their was no immediate concern of imbalance in pro and low level play. Win rates don't prove balance, but it's evidence. Having watched many games, I would say balance is fine right now. No Blizzard wanted people to shut up about balance so they released those graphs. Besides I never commented on actual balance anyway. When people say the sc2 scene is forced they don't mean the game is shit. Show nested quote +He is saying it was a scene not built around the game but the idea of ESPORTS. Nothing was said about the quality of the game.
Here's what you said.
Switching to a new game without knowing if it is fit for competition makes no sense. Playing a game competitively while it is being patched is sketchy considering blizzard only has a good balancing record with BW. Using win rates under a match making system to judge blanace is honestly one of the most retarded thing I've heard about. No one should fail this hard at logic.
That whole paragraph, especially the highlighted part, you were commenting on balance. You heavily implied that Blizzard does not do a good job balancing outside of BW. Then you commented on their logic for judging balance is the "most retarded thing I've heard about".
That's why I corrected your assumptions, and showed you the most recent month's sample of 2000+ pro games that shows a statistical winrates between 48.8%-51.2% for every matchup.
Anyways, this I'll end here, since this conversation is probably annoying the rest of the people trying to enjoy this thread.
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On May 02 2012 17:10 Kiett wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 16:38 Ribbon wrote:On May 02 2012 15:57 Sprouter wrote:some of you guys can kick and scream all you like, if this is what it takes to keep the best players playing starcraft (2), then so be it. i'm really surprised there are so many people (who claim to be) leaving when there are still many excellent players. if a game switch killed your passion to cheer for  Flash or  Jaedong, good riddens to you. At the end of the day, no one actually liked Flash, the human being. Not in the same way SC2 fans like, say, MarineKing or Naniwa. They liked him because he was really good at BW. Full stop. Now that he's not playing BW, nothing about him is interesting excpet the possibility that he'll be really good at SC2, which obviously isn't appealing to people who don't care about SC2. The only BW player I ever liked for non-BW reasons is Hyuk, because he was a joke for so long and then all-killed STX and made Cholera a fan. I don't care about Jaedong's personal struggle, and neither does anyone else. I think that's maybe part of the reason BW failed (oh wow, past tense T_T), but it was what it was So let me get this straight. Because you personally don't like Flash, the guy, that means nobody else does. Because you personally don't care about Jaedong's personal struggles, it means nobody else did. What a joke.
BW haters from SC2 should just not post in this thread.
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On May 06 2012 12:47 1Eris1 wrote:
Please go post about BW vs SC2 in one of the 603 other threads dedicated to it. Seriously, can't there at least be one place I don't have to see this shit?
Every thread that was dedicated to it was shut down for some reason....
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y02dO.png)
EPT
