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shadymmj
1906 Posts
let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product. Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends. | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product. Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends. The SC2 scene built off the BW scene, it didn't just appear out of nowhere. Day9 was doing dailies during the beta and even had that King of the Beta tournament. Day9 obviously has BW roots and I'm sure most if not all of his viewers at that time did as well. I could also name the other players and casters who came from BW in one way or another, but the list is too long and obvious so there's no point to do that here. SC2 also did a great job in pulling in people like me who wished they could have caught up with 10 years of the BW metagame, who wished games were more easily available with English commentary, who wanted to take the opportunity to not miss out for the second time. The fact is, is that SC2 has an "X factor" as well - for some reason it really took off in the West. I'm sure many will want to just say it's because of "shiny" graphics or a better UI, but that's beside the point. SC2 has single-handedly taken competitive RTS gaming from an obscure Korean sport to an international phenomenon. It completely sucks and it is completely unfair that the pro BW scene apparently has to die because of that, but we can only deal with what "is" and not necessarily with what we "wish". With as many passionate people as there are for BW, I'm sure the scene will live on, even if in some different form. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On May 06 2012 14:47 densha wrote: The SC2 scene built off the BW scene, it didn't just appear out of nowhere. Day9 was doing dailies during the beta and even had that King of the Beta tournament. Day9 obviously has BW roots and I'm sure most if not all of his viewers at that time did as well. I could also name the other players and casters who came from BW in one way or another, but the list is too long and obvious so there's no point to do that here. SC2 also did a great job in pulling in people like me who wished they could have caught up with 10 years of the BW metagame, who wished games were more easily available with English commentary, who wanted to take the opportunity to not miss out for the second time. The fact is, is that SC2 has an "X factor" as well - for some reason it really took off in the West. I'm sure many will want to just say it's because of "shiny" graphics or a better UI, but that's beside the point. SC2 has single-handedly taken competitive RTS gaming from an obscure Korean sport to an international phenomenon. It completely sucks and it is completely unfair that the pro BW scene apparently has to die because of that, but we can only deal with what "is" and not necessarily with what we "wish". With as many passionate people as there are for BW, I'm sure the scene will live on, even if in some different form. Actually to be honest, the current commentary by english commentators even though it's the likes of artosis and tasteless who are currently doing the casting their casting is not really that interesting . It is evident that koreans are a much a better starcraft korean commentators, Koreans commentator lash out with passion at every single explosion on screen and the way they pump you up for each match ups screaming till their lungs burn out . It's as though I am watching a rock concert I don't think english commentary has actually reach the level of korean commentators . The things is koreans are really good at starcraft and commentary let the koreans do the job and learn to enjoy the origin of starcraft . Always if there is korean commentary available choose it and you won't be disappointed although I would like to know what the commentators are screaming about but I have got so custom to koreans commentating games that it has become a must rather than a optional thing. International phenomenon ? Don't joke with me if you look at how LoL is growing everywhere in the globe you will feel your sc2 population being huge but if you compare it with LoL the numbers are really that small . For sc2 to only capture the west interest it's kind of bad to say that is a international phenomenon when you look at asia LoL and dota 2 are the kings of e-sport here . I can bet you that if you come to my local scene you will see kids throwing filthy words at each other playing dota and one or few players playing sc2 in a 3v3 game . Like it or not LoL and Dota 2 are growing and if sc2 don't do something you can kiss goodbye to e-sports and sc2 and professional rts. I don't doubt sc2 looks really solid for a RTS game growing in the west and taking the scene with storm same can be said when counter strike was huge back than . But look at how the scene was torn apart when developers keep pushing out with new version of your game . Fan's get divided, hatreds are brewed between fans and it all goes to hell. In my opinion no computer game will ever reach the status and acceptability of real life sports we are pretty much of a niche market and nothing we do is quite relevant with the real world and it's sad but I have to face reality . | ||
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densha
United States797 Posts
On May 06 2012 14:54 Sawamura wrote: Actually to be honest, the current commentary by english commentators even though it's the likes of artosis and tasteless who are currently doing the casting their casting is not really that interesting . It is evident that koreans are a much a better starcraft korean commentators, Koreans commentator lash out with passion at every single explosion on screen and the way they pump you up for each match ups screaming till their lungs burn out . It's as though I am watching a rock concert I don't think english commentary has actually reach the level of korean commentators . The things is koreans are really good at starcraft and commentary let the koreans do the job and learn to enjoy the origin of starcraft . Always if there is korean commentary available choose it and you won't be disappointed although I would like to know what the commentators are screaming about but I have got so custom to koreans commentating games that it has become a must rather than a optional thing. International phenomenon ? Don't joke with me if you look at how LoL is growing everywhere in the globe you will feel your sc2 population being huge but if you compare it with LoL the numbers are really that small . For sc2 to only capture the west interest it's kind of bad to say that is a international phenomenon when you look at asia LoL and dota 2 are the kings of e-sport here . I can bet you that if you come to my local scene you will see kids throwing filthy words at each other playing dota and one or few players playing sc2 in a 3v3 game . Like it or not LoL and Dota 2 are growing and if sc2 don't do something you can kiss goodbye to e-sports and sc2 and professional rts. I don't doubt sc2 looks really solid for a RTS game growing in the west and taking the scene with storm same can be said when counter strike was huge back than . But look at how the scene was torn apart when developers keep pushing out with new version of your game . Fan's get divided, hatreds are brewed between fans and it all goes to hell. In my opinion no computer game will ever reach the status and acceptability of real life sports we are pretty much of a niche market and nothing we do is quite relevant with the real world and it's sad but I have to face reality . I do watch BW live when I can so I have heard the Korean commentary. It's just that I know so little about the metagame that I feel like I need everything spelled out to me, at least for now. So I'd rather hear some boring insight just so I can fully grasp the builds and the tension between them as opposed to just getting excited by hearing other excited people. I can appreciate BW games, but I don't feel I am able to at their fullest level. Since I play SC2, have been with SC2 since the beginning, and there's so much English information available, I feel I appreciate and enjoy it at a much deeper level. My fault completely, of course. I always loved BW as a game but never realized there was a pro-scene until waaaaay too late. About LoL and other DOTA games, there's definitely no arguing with their numbers. That doesn't really bother me, though, that they are huge compared to SC2. It's kinda like MMORPGs. What I mean is, you don't have to be WoW to be a successful, profitable MMO. There's a point in subscribers where an MMO can sustain itself and be very profitable (say, 400,000). It's far from WoW's 11 million, but it's a very strong, viable community. If LoL is the WoW in that analogy, I guess SC2 would be an MMO with 2 million subscribers: better than practically every other MMO, but far from even touching WoW. | ||
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Torpedo.Vegas
United States1890 Posts
On May 06 2012 14:54 Sawamura wrote: Actually to be honest, the current commentary by english commentators even though it's the likes of artosis and tasteless who are currently doing the casting their casting is not really that interesting . It is evident that koreans are a much a better starcraft korean commentators, Koreans commentator lash out with passion at every single explosion on screen and the way they pump you up for each match ups screaming till their lungs burn out . It's as though I am watching a rock concert I don't think english commentary has actually reach the level of korean commentators . The things is koreans are really good at starcraft and commentary let the koreans do the job and learn to enjoy the origin of starcraft . Always if there is korean commentary available choose it and you won't be disappointed although I would like to know what the commentators are screaming about but I have got so custom to koreans commentating games that it has become a must rather than a optional thing. International phenomenon ? Don't joke with me if you look at how LoL is growing everywhere in the globe you will feel your sc2 population being huge but if you compare it with LoL the numbers are really that small . For sc2 to only capture the west interest it's kind of bad to say that is a international phenomenon when you look at asia LoL and dota 2 are the kings of e-sport here . I can bet you that if you come to my local scene you will see kids throwing filthy words at each other playing dota and one or few players playing sc2 in a 3v3 game . Like it or not LoL and Dota 2 are growing and if sc2 don't do something you can kiss goodbye to e-sports and sc2 and professional rts. I don't doubt sc2 looks really solid for a RTS game growing in the west and taking the scene with storm same can be said when counter strike was huge back than . But look at how the scene was torn apart when developers keep pushing out with new version of your game . Fan's get divided, hatreds are brewed between fans and it all goes to hell. In my opinion no computer game will ever reach the status and acceptability of real life sports we are pretty much of a niche market and nothing we do is quite relevant with the real world and it's sad but I have to face reality . You can have more than one game be a successful competition. Soccer doesn't kill Football, or Baseball taking away from Basketball. The problem comes in when they are not enough distinguishing factors, like 2 RTS games for example. It will be LoL or DotA2 btw. Or it will be a split with Asia taking one and the west taking the other or something like that. They are going to cannabalize each other if they try to exist in the same market going after identical fans. Although, based my memory of your kind of posts in these sorts of topic, you really don't like SC2 at all, which is fine. But it makes it harder for people to distinguish your real arguments from the hate. | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
On May 06 2012 15:32 densha wrote: I do watch BW live when I can so I have heard the Korean commentary. It's just that I know so little about the metagame that I feel like I need everything spelled out to me, at least for now. So I'd rather hear some boring insight just so I can fully grasp the builds and the tension between them as opposed to just getting excited by hearing other excited people. I can appreciate BW games, but I don't feel I am able to at their fullest level. Since I play SC2, have been with SC2 since the beginning, and there's so much English information available, I feel I appreciate and enjoy it at a much deeper level. My fault completely, of course. I always loved BW as a game but never realized there was a pro-scene until waaaaay too late. About LoL and other DOTA games, there's definitely no arguing with their numbers. That doesn't really bother me, though, that they are huge compared to SC2. It's kinda like MMORPGs. What I mean is, you don't have to be WoW to be a successful, profitable MMO. There's a point in subscribers where an MMO can sustain itself and be very profitable (say, 400,000). It's far from WoW's 11 million, but it's a very strong, viable community. If LoL is the WoW in that analogy, I guess SC2 would be an MMO with 2 million subscribers: better than practically every other MMO, but far from even touching WoW. The thing is when LoL and moba games are threatening your scene you should be worried because in the end the analogy doesn't work when people consider LoL and Dota 2 as RTS games . Well if you put it in a MMO analogy like you said for example LoL it's pretty much sustainable actually players who actually pay money get better heroes and other access easily and with that being said it probably will reach more than just 11 millions given time since WoW has been around for a long time .. You can't say that sc2 is a MMO because you have to purchase the game and because of that it is a totally different ball game compared to Dota2 and LoL are for free since the day you install the game . The thing is the korean's don't just crazily go excited for no reason, if you think korean commentaries are just about "Plagueee ,REABEr, PActory " than you are pretty wrong . If you are a korean native and you are able to understand what they are saying their analysis and commentary are really really deep and I mean it . Even as a player I am astonished at things that I didn't know and compared to your usual english commentary which usually talk about the same boring thing " players is building x, getting upgrade y and going to z " it's really making me hit my head on the wall because I can see what's happening on screen they don't have to tell me . They actually are analysing what the players are doing at the moment and even give predictions that if " Fantasy attacks now he will win, Jangbi has to stop this push or he loses the game and etc ... " I can't blame you when wc3 and other games are pretty much more popular than broodwar back than and most of the casual's only considered that broodwar as an old archaic game that no longer is relevant right now because it's too hard to understand and it's bad graphics . If you want to appreciate broodwar at the fullest level you have to play the game yourself and learning starcraft is pretty much like learning abc and elementary level of intelligent is all needed to play the game however if you want to appreciate it at a high level you have to at least play the game at it's highest level . C+ to B rank maybe ? If you find it hard to picture about why I am praising the korean commentators really highly than take a look at a subtitle game done by Jpak which is the osl 2011 and read the translated commentaries everything they commentated on is actually relevant and each burst of passion they unleashed are actually quite reasonable as a fact . I am really doubting why I am not born as a korean right now ^_^. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
On May 06 2012 09:22 SarcasmMonster wrote: Aren't top tier players like Bisu in the OSL prelims? LOL poor Bisu. | ||
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supernovamaniac
United States3046 Posts
On May 06 2012 16:12 sCCrooked wrote: I think when I start doing commentary again, I'm going to try drinking like 3 humongous energy drinks before each cast to see if I can match the level of energy the Korean commentators bring. Seriously. Just feel the game. | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
Oh I feel it alright! I just can't maintain that kind of volume/energy for as long as they do. The A/B tourneys were easily 4-6 hour casts and some of the independent broadcasts I did were even longer. It DOES eventually cause headaches if you yell too much!! | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
theres so much i didnt know! like i learnt when u scout expansions u can click on the mineral patches to get an estimate of how long its been up (i'm sure everyone knows that now, but back then i never would have thought of that just listening(reading the subs) helps u learn so much about the game, map, player. I also read somewhere i cant remember where, that the korean commentators spend a TON of time researching players reviewing games, talking to coachs and players to get more knowledge...its just so amazing | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
Luckily enough, we have good mapmakers in the community, so I hope it will live on. | ||
Bijan
United States286 Posts
On May 06 2012 12:26 SarcasmMonster wrote: If I recall correctly, that was a report by Blizzard saying that races were getting good representation in tourneys AND at different ranks in ladder. They were trying to say that their was no immediate concern of imbalance in pro and low level play. Win rates don't prove balance, but it's evidence. Having watched many games, I would say balance is fine right now. Balance isn't really the issue with SC2, not anymore. It's about the type of play that makes for enjoyable viewing. In my opinion it's constantly getting better and moving towards what we want, but it's not there yet. It's still incredibly enjoyable as is in my opinion. On May 06 2012 12:47 1Eris1 wrote: Please go post about BW vs SC2 in one of the 603 other threads dedicated to it. Seriously, can't there at least be one place I don't have to see this shit? To be fair, in a thread like this the topic is intrinsically tied. Many people feel like SC2 is the reason BW is ending in Korea and harbor bitter feelings towards it. I came to this thread to talk about the BW scene and to learn what the pillars of the TL community plan on doing in the future, but I see no reason why it's unacceptable to respond to some of the opinions here. On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product. Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends. The scene may have been jump started but there is plenty of evidence suggesting that it is capable of sustaining itself. Stream views for individual players are a decent indication, so are the youtube casting scenes. And as for the ladder numbers, SC2 is still extremely popular. And you're right about BW growing organically. That's why it was magical. It's what was required in order to start a culture of esports. But you're fooling yourself if you don't think that the pro scene had something to do with keeping the game popular in Korea as far as gaming goes. And even then, I remember seeing threads on TL about the huge drop in popularity of BW in PC bangs. On May 06 2012 16:56 sCCrooked wrote: Oh I feel it alright! I just can't maintain that kind of volume/energy for as long as they do. The A/B tourneys were easily 4-6 hour casts and some of the independent broadcasts I did were even longer. It DOES eventually cause headaches if you yell too much!! I imagine that so much of that has to do with the level of professionalism in Korea regarding esports. I've watched a lot of the BW youtube casters and it's not like they love the game any less. There isn't a career in BW casting for foreigners so they do it purely for the love of the game. But if there was money involved you would start to see better commentators popping up. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On May 06 2012 14:21 shadymmj wrote: suppose we stop with the bw vs sc2 comparison let's just focus on the scene. what kind of sport has big tournaments before and upon release, seriously? it's the equivalent of a marketing push, to hell with the actual product. Most blizzard games did not start out a smash hit. BW was not. Neither was WoW. But eventually people discovered that those games had an X-factor, and so a scene grew around it. For SC2, it is actually the reverse. I just have to point at the ladder population trends. Actually there is a video about Mike Morhime saying that WoW started out better than W3 and that completly suprised them since they wasn't ready for such a good start. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On May 06 2012 17:19 Shock710 wrote: The knowledge of the korean commentators always blew my mind, i remember watching the TL bw VODs and thinking these koreans make it sooo much more awesome, but when i watch a subbed game HOLYSHIT theres so much i didnt know! like i learnt when u scout expansions u can click on the mineral patches to get an estimate of how long its been up (i'm sure everyone knows that now, but back then i never would have thought of that just listening(reading the subs) helps u learn so much about the game, map, player. I also read somewhere i cant remember where, that the korean commentators spend a TON of time researching players reviewing games, talking to coachs and players to get more knowledge...its just so amazing This. A lot of current casters are mostly kids who never went to college and/or don't have a working mindset. I would bet none of them spend 8h a day researching the players, strategies, tournament results, playing the game, and so on. I think all casters would improve their casting a ton, if they did like Nal_rA. A couple of months practicing full time in a team enviroment, as if they were to qualify for really hard tournament. The "play-by-play" casting for me is just an unconscious excuse not to work more, because you can talk to newbies as long as you explain whatever you need in a simple way. Actually, it is said, that the more you know about a subject, the more simply you can explain it. In other words, someone who can't explain something simply, doesn't understand it well enough. I think these are words from Einstein if i'm not mistaken. Concerning LoL's competition, a free well made team game with a much much better designed UI, really stomps a paid game, mainly 1v1 with a really bad UI that makes you feel lonely and angry all the time. A lot of people don't think SC2 is worth 50€. And even more don't think the expansion is worth almost the same. | ||
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chrisolo
Germany2606 Posts
Tried SC2 from Beta, it sucked, so well yea, all the good things come to an end.  | ||
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Bjoernzor
Sweden159 Posts
On May 06 2012 20:20 chrisolo wrote: I will probably quit gaming completely after BW dies. Tried SC2 from Beta, it sucked, so well yea, all the good things come to an end. You played a game you thought sucked for 2 years? Oo | ||
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ShatterStar
United States40 Posts
There were always the diehard fans who stuck to whatever game they liked (which honestly often was the first game that drew them into the scene). Personally I was new to all of this, my brother was the one into the SC scene since broodwar. I got in with SC2 and now appreciate the other games--even though I admit to not understanding all the intricacies. For the newbies like me I think the transition is exciting because I get to see all of these old legends come to collide with the current world of SC2. It's always sucks to see your favorite game go, but often something comes along to keep your interest. SC2 may be more casual friendly, but the expansions invariably will have to layer on new complexities if they are expanding the amount of units and if any gameplay tweaks happen. The complexity may not reach BW, but still, it's going to be different than it is now, and that can be exciting too (in a scary way). So if BW calls it quits, I'll just keep on watching as a fan of the genre. That may not satisfy everyone, but it'll do for me. | ||
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dark14cs
143 Posts
On May 06 2012 20:20 chrisolo wrote: I will probably quit gaming completely after BW dies. | ||
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Firereaver
India1701 Posts
On May 04 2012 08:03 Darksoldierr wrote: That is the biggest bullshit i seen so far from threads like this, you win good sir That shit was hilarious! I just got fruit juice all over my shirt! | ||
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