On April 15 2012 17:29 entrust wrote: SC2 player here. TBH I feel kinda bad with all this stuff, they have to change their game because BW will die sooner or later. SC2 is just bad and that's about it. The only thing that's better are the graphics (BW graphics just dated) and probably nothing more. Few months before I was so excited about the possible switch, but now I must say I feel sorry for them (BW pros that is).
Has anyone considered rebuilding BW in SC2's map editor? That way if they play SC2 in the proleague BW could live on forever with updated graphics.
I mean seriously, look how passionate you guys are... I am sure someone out there could near-perfectly recreate the BW maps and unit mechanics.
EDIT: Kind of what they are doing with DOTA 2 and CS:GO no?
There is SC2BW, problem it dosent have alot of the faults of the BW pathfinding(I belive muta stacking was a major problem) which made BW balanced
Pathfinding and muta stack made BW balance? lol
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ZvT would nearly be unwinnable without mutamicro. Even muta-less builds hinge upon the terran player accounting for possible threat of mutas.
ZvT is unwinnable if Zerg fails to obtain 3rd gas immediately, regardless of if there is muta-micro present or not.
But Z needs muta micro to win some time for establishing 3-rd base, so basically they need muta micro to win ^_^
BW is balanced on a knife's edge, after 10 years of development and every little thing being worked out. Changing really anything about BW would completely bork the game, at this point.
Also, can we....not....have the BW vs SC2 flamewars? Because there were some legitimately good conversations going on and then someone insults something and the thread goes to shit and it's a little annoying. I don't care which game you like more. That's not what this thread is about.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I call bullshit And when was this? Was this when Grrrr.. was the top foreigner? or Bisu rofl-stomped savior? or when SC2 came out? or when Kespa announced that they'll be having SC2 along with BW?
So you play and enjoy SC2 because you like easy stuff and can become good as the 'pros' you watch.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you think anyone (or even most people rofl) can become as good as the pros you watch. I also find it funny how you quote "pros" like they aren't. Please you can hate sc2 all you want but please don't post something you know nothing about, it only makes you look silly.
I'll never understand why bw players can't just stop ripping on sc2 whenever its mentioned and sc2 players should not be saying bw is dying i agree, but you guys are no better either.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I call bullshit And when was this? Was this when Grrrr.. was the top foreigner? or Bisu rofl-stomped savior? or when SC2 came out? or when Kespa announced that they'll be having SC2 along with BW?
So you play and enjoy SC2 because you like easy stuff and can become good as the 'pros' you watch.
Yeah I guess right after I'm done playing I'll go and watch sc2 in Proleague. LOL.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I call bullshit And when was this? Was this when Grrrr.. was the top foreigner? or Bisu rofl-stomped savior? or when SC2 came out? or when Kespa announced that they'll be having SC2 along with BW?
So you play and enjoy SC2 because you like easy stuff and can become good as the 'pros' you watch.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you think anyone (or even most people rofl) can become as good as the pros you watch. I also find it funny how you quote "pros" like they aren't. Please you can hate sc2 all you want but please don't post something you know nothing about, it only makes you look silly.
I'll never understand why bw players can't just stop ripping on sc2 whenever its mentioned and sc2 players should not be saying bw is dying i agree, but you guys are no better either.
Have I?? Back in BW, none in their right minds would post serious blogs about them going trying to get into pro except for a handful of people like, Ret, Idra, Nony, etc. .. or maybe they might be trolling and they actually aren't serious. Who can really tell?
Nevertheless, SC2 as what the developers are trying to do, is making it as casual-friendly as much as possible to attract players to buy their games.
Regarding the 'pros', I do not mean those who are really earning big and playing at a really high level, not at all. What I'm trying to demean are those who think they are good, would earn money by coaching and donation calling themselves 'pros', those types of people.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I call bullshit And when was this? Was this when Grrrr.. was the top foreigner? or Bisu rofl-stomped savior? or when SC2 came out? or when Kespa announced that they'll be having SC2 along with BW?
So you play and enjoy SC2 because you like easy stuff and can become good as the 'pros' you watch.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you think anyone (or even most people rofl) can become as good as the pros you watch. I also find it funny how you quote "pros" like they aren't. Please you can hate sc2 all you want but please don't post something you know nothing about, it only makes you look silly.
I'll never understand why bw players can't just stop ripping on sc2 whenever its mentioned and sc2 players should not be saying bw is dying i agree, but you guys are no better either.
I disagree. Most of us stay around here in our BW forums talking about BW, celebrating whenever there's a little opportunity, and then reacting when people come in here and either
a) post dumb troll comments b) talk about SC2 growing and saying "yay", when we don't want anything to do with it
I don't know why there's this argument that the two sides are both equally responsible when in reality there are very few BW players that I've actually seen on this forum going out of their way to bash SC2 unless they've been provoked by people coming in here and talking about SC2 expansion as if it's another reason to accept the status quo.
I agree that that there are people on both sides that do dumb thing, but it's in no way equal.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I call bullshit And when was this? Was this when Grrrr.. was the top foreigner? or Bisu rofl-stomped savior? or when SC2 came out? or when Kespa announced that they'll be having SC2 along with BW?
So you play and enjoy SC2 because you like easy stuff and can become good as the 'pros' you watch.
You obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you think anyone (or even most people rofl) can become as good as the pros you watch. I also find it funny how you quote "pros" like they aren't. Please you can hate sc2 all you want but please don't post something you know nothing about, it only makes you look silly.
I'll never understand why bw players can't just stop ripping on sc2 whenever its mentioned and sc2 players should not be saying bw is dying i agree, but you guys are no better either.
Have I?? Back in BW, none in their right minds would post serious blogs about them going trying to get into pro except for a handful of people like, Ret, Idra, Nony, etc. .. or maybe they might be trolling and they actually aren't serious. Who can really tell?
I don't think any of those people ever actually accomplished anything. The only no-name to break out and make a name for herself was Scarlett, and that's because she was just quietly playing 20 games a day trying to get a ride to a tournament.
Nevertheless, SC2 as what the developers are trying to do, is making it as casual-friendly as much as possible to attract players to buy their games.
I don't think "casual-friendly" and "pro-friendly" really have to be opposed. If there's an easy way that kind of works and a hard way that works better, then the pros'd always do the better one. Like, in BW, you don't really need to split your workers, it's just better. So I don't think SC2's issue is that it's too easy to have all your workers mining (and, let's be honest, manual mine in BW doesn't add anything to the game except an APM sink), it's that there aren't enough little edges to eek out to beat people doing things the easy way.
There was a very slow increase in mechanical skill in SC2 just because people were realizing that "If I micro better, I can cut a marine here and get a banshee out faster", and timings started getting tighter, and people realized they didn't need to make maruaders to tank baneling hits (as they used to do) if they learned marine splits etc etc. But there's just not enough of that. HotS supposedly adds a little mechanical skill just by having more interesting units, and FRB maps add a little more, but SC2 will never require as much mechanical skill as BW, because the absolute best that'll ever possibly happen is the exact same micro potential and none of the arbitrary manual mine crap, but BW fans LIKE the manual-mine because it adds APM, even though it's not really fun.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine" would've been heretical, and requiring manual mine would've simply been absurd for a game released in 2010. Most of BW's skill comes from fighting against a terrible UI, and that was never going to happen in a modern game. There just wasn't enough to replace it.
Regarding the 'pros', I do not mean those who are really earning big and playing at a really high level, not at all. What I'm trying to demean are those who think they are good, would earn money by coaching and donation calling themselves 'pros', those types of people.
I don't think any of those people have ever beaten anyone of even slight noteworthyness.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
I tend to like a 2d games more for RTS like bw and heck even back than I didn't like wc3 as much as wc 2 . Maybe I have something against 3d rts games .
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
What? Not true at all. Most of us were excited as hell even during Beta.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
What? Not true at all. Most of us were excited as hell even during Beta.
You'd still get some. Hell there's some dota players that profess not to like dota 2 because of very minor engine differences despite being a direct port in most regards.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
What? Not true at all. Most of us were excited as hell even during Beta.
You'd still get some. Hell there's some dota players that profess not to like dota 2 because of very minor engine differences despite being a direct port in most regards.
And you find someone not liking dota 2 strange because of...?
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
What? Not true at all. Most of us were excited as hell even during Beta.
You'd still get some. Hell there's some dota players that profess not to like dota 2 because of very minor engine differences despite being a direct port in most regards.
And its still valid. Some people cant stand the fact that their keyboard is 0.5 cm off(FLASH :D), and we should be ok with that. Its all subjective. Yet there are certain values that are clear, like engine difference between BW and SC2, it already makes the game feel completely different.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
What? Not true at all. Most of us were excited as hell even during Beta.
You'd still get some. Hell there's some dota players that profess not to like dota 2 because of very minor engine differences despite being a direct port in most regards.
And you find someone not liking dota 2 strange because of...?
I don't, people can like what they want to like. Just offering another example that suggests that no matter how close the sequel to starcraft ended up being that not everyone would have been happy.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
What? Not true at all. Most of us were excited as hell even during Beta.
You'd still get some. Hell there's some dota players that profess not to like dota 2 because of very minor engine differences despite being a direct port in most regards.
And you find someone not liking dota 2 strange because of...?
I don't, people can like what they want to like. Just offering another example that suggests no matter how close 2 game versions are that some people will not be satisfied regardless.
But BW and SC2 are not even close to being similar(besides general concepts) so there is no point in discussing hypothetical issues few individuals would have.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
What? Not true at all. Most of us were excited as hell even during Beta.
You'd still get some. Hell there's some dota players that profess not to like dota 2 because of very minor engine differences despite being a direct port in most regards.
And you find someone not liking dota 2 strange because of...?
I don't, people can like what they want to like. Just offering another example that suggests no matter how close 2 game versions are that some people will not be satisfied regardless.
But BW and SC2 are not even close to being similar(besides general concepts) so there is no point in discussing hypothetical issues few individuals would have.
I'm aware they're very different games lol, I just thought that given the discussion of the previous few posts it might be a useful comparison ^^ It is wandering rather off topic on the general track of recent news discussion though I guess.
I wonder what the players must be thinking. Why don't they transition into chess or LOL instead. I mean, the scene was built on BW, so you can't replace it with something else, except maybe a BW clone. You run two leagues together and then when BW isn't popular anymore, you stop. If they are so adamant on introducing SC2, they might as well just throw BW in the garbage bin altogether.
SC2 could never have made BW fans happy, because even "it's exactly like BW but with MBS and Automine"
Nope sc2 isn't exactly like bw because I don't have vultures and medic, game also is in 3d and my units are clump with sticky glue when I put them in a control group .
Sorry, I forgot the if. Even IF it was exactly like BW except MBS and Automine, BW players would still hate it. Obviously, it isn't like that in reality.
What? Not true at all. Most of us were excited as hell even during Beta.
You'd still get some. Hell there's some dota players that profess not to like dota 2 because of very minor engine differences despite being a direct port in most regards.
And you find someone not liking dota 2 strange because of...?
I don't, people can like what they want to like. Just offering another example that suggests no matter how close 2 game versions are that some people will not be satisfied regardless.
But BW and SC2 are not even close to being similar(besides general concepts) so there is no point in discussing hypothetical issues few individuals would have.
I'm aware they're very different games lol, I just thought that given the discussion of the previous few posts it might be a useful comparison ^^ It is wandering rather off topic on the general track of recent news discussion though I guess.
I know i know, there are idiots everywhere, who just wait for a moment to shine, there are many uneducated BW posters aswell who never ventured into SC2 themselfs but in all honesty i believe BW vs SC2 should be treated like Soccer vs Basketball discussion, it would give at least some breathing room for both sides, if they accepted 1 is different than the other, problem being is both SC2 and BW are "Starcrafts" and have identical general concept, which is already big enough "reason" to sustain eternal BW vs SC2 discussion till SC3 comes out and join the fray.
Honestly im losing all my powers while discussing it, im repeating myself from few months ago, and everyone is basicaly repeteaing some or themselves its getting annoying. Someone should make FAQ thread about BW AND SC2 so everyone would be at least at the minimum level of understanding so we will avoid repeating the same question(or uneducated sarcasm attempt) - answer scenarios.
BW vs SC2 feels like reddit, everyday the same but everyday the shocker for someone.
Since the other thread was closed, could we maybe have the OP updated so people don't have to wade through 90 pages of "my game is better than your game" arguments to find the interviews and translations of the most recent articles?
For instance, the Team 8 coach's interview here, (Summarized by rotinegg here) The Fomos and DES/MBCplus mirror, (Summarized by white_horse here and here) and the newest article the now closed thread was based on here.
On April 16 2012 22:35 ninini wrote: I wonder what the players must be thinking. Why don't they transition into chess or LOL instead. I mean, the scene was built on BW, so you can't replace it with something else, except maybe a BW clone. You run two leagues together and then when BW isn't popular anymore, you stop. If they are so adamant on introducing SC2, they might as well just throw BW in the garbage bin altogether.
Actually, throwing BW under the bus appears to be the plan. But first, they must exploit what remains of it to promote a game that isn't that popular yet in Korea.
EPT
