Things get hidden behind other things and where you click isn't exacly that place, since there is the conversion from 2d space (cursor coordinates) to 3d space (world coordinates), so when you storm mutas you actually have to aim their shadows and not the mutas itself.
It sucks that you need 4 or 5 zealots to block a ramp :/ What also sucks is that you can't micro your scouting probe inside zergs creep because slow lings are faster and once queens pop out there is just nothing you can do. And probes aren't ranged anymore, so no funky probe harass possible anymore. Also sucks that there is no more worker drift while patrolling, which means the scouting worker can be issued a patrol command and it will dodge melee units effortelessly. There is also marauders concussive shells that deny any stalker&zealot/m&m early game micro battles...
On April 15 2012 09:02 Kiett wrote: I think you're grossly overestimating how much the masses care about the little guys on the scene. The truth is, they don't. We have an OSL chock full of storylines going on right now, from Hiya, who's fighting his way without a team, to Roro, the inheritor of the mighty Bisu-slaying title, to Hyuk, who'd like for once to not get knocked out of the Ro8 by Fantasy, to Fantasy himself, who'd like to prove once and for all that he's not just Oov's puppet. But nobody but the people who are already fans know or care about these names. No random SC2 fan is going to watch Modesty make the Ro4 again and go, "WOAH, I love BW now that I know that every player has his own interesting background, even though that's always been the case, and I've totally ignored the fact that the scene has over a decade of rich, fascinating history!" In the end, it's headlines like "Flash's 14 game win-streak finally ends" and "Flash loses 2 games in PL finals" that get 500+ upvotes on reddit, not "Hyuk makes his 4th consecutive OSL." Face it, you might like Hyuk, but nobody outside of the BW scene knows or cares about him. We're not going to suddenly get new BW fans because Grape just made a royal road run or SoO finally sheds the stereotype of the SKT zerg and wins gold.
Thank you Kiett, that was a good post.
I have always liked BW, but I never watched it till about a year ago. I played it, but I had horrible memories from when I started wanting to play online; I played two matches, each completely killed all of me that wanted to try to play a lot of BW (this is 8-9 years ago).
SC2 is easier to watch, but unlike the people that disregard BW and just views it as the predecessor, I grasp that it is another, amazing game.
But despite that, it's still hard to really "love". I have, as I said, been watch a lot of it for the past year. Not all of it, but I have been watch for hours each week. I've been following proleague, I've been watching Sayle's stream (which I really like, I'm quite sad he isn't streaming a lot anymore) and I even took up my old BW in an all new attempt to complete the campaign.
What I'm trying to say is: I have really tried to fall in love with BW.
And while I do like it, as Kiett so diplomatically said, I just don't get it. And I feel like it's tough for people, that haven't followed the game for years and years, or really spendt a tremendous amount of time trying to understand the game, to get it. So while SC2 fans might seem ignorant and disrespectful of your amazing game, please understand it's because we just don't get it. What most people understand, is that you're trying to say that down is the new up. It just doesn't make sense. And some people, being the dicks that they are, just attempt to troll you, and of course that just leads to bad situations. I'll be, that most of the SC2 people actually are genuinely interested in BW, but they've just given up. It's too hard to understand, play comfortable, and they probably realize, that they'll never get to where you are.
TL:DR I hope that made sense, that's how I see this whole ordeal. Have a wonderful life.
Then by all means, SC2 fans don't come over and trash our long beloved game Do you know how hurtful it is when one of your absolute favorite hobbies is in the process of crumbling down like a shard of cards? No I won't even use the term 'hobbie' as my arguement, I have to say that after countless of time to habitually get up late and night, snuke on computers while my roomates are sound asleep and hear Koreans commentators screaming their lungs out of pure, undefiled passion. For many of us, this have been a vital key to our lifestyle that I refuse to say that I am believer in atheism! Just be empathetic toward our anguish and let us take joy in this activity w/o interference.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I don't think it's possible to take pleasure in the slow death of someone's hobby but I think said slow death would be a hell of a lot more bearable if BW fans concentrated on enjoying the remnants of their game instead of constantly slagging ours off. For my part, I hope they come up with a more palatable solution to this problem as I want to see the BW pros playing SC2, but not while crippling your game.
too bad bw fans aint like dota fans. dota2 is only in beta, and everyone is wanting to play it. but that is kinda unfair since valve actually listens to the community.
On April 16 2012 08:39 BlackGosu wrote: too bad bw fans aint like dota fans. dota2 is only in beta, and everyone is wanting to play it. but that is kinda unfair since valve actually listens to the community.
also dota 2 is a complete recreation of dota 1, wheras SC2 has a bunch of dumb units like marauders and colossi and removes cool units like reavers and vultures.
On April 16 2012 08:39 BlackGosu wrote: too bad bw fans aint like dota fans. dota2 is only in beta, and everyone is wanting to play it. but that is kinda unfair since valve actually listens to the community.
Thts cus dota2 is actually like dota. If they made sc2 a graphically updated version of bw then no one would mind the swtich.
Stop hating on the different games guys... Blizzard added new units to please new customers. The esports community accounts for a small portion of customers. A lot of kids buy sc2 not even knowing about bw since its so old. And bw pros have had over a decade to practice (given the metagame shifts), so sc2 will look very different in ten years.
On April 16 2012 08:45 catplanetcatplanet wrote: Stop hating on the different games guys... Blizzard added new units to please new customers. The esports community accounts for a small portion of customers. A lot of kids buy sc2 not even knowing about bw since its so old. And bw pros have had over a decade to practice (given the metagame shifts), so sc2 will look very different in ten years.
And also shit on the previous loyalists.
Of course it will look very different than its momentary state. I mean for all we know, Blizz will probably make changes to the unit line-up at every single expansion. That should be pretty self-explanatory.
On April 15 2012 17:29 entrust wrote: SC2 player here. TBH I feel kinda bad with all this stuff, they have to change their game because BW will die sooner or later. SC2 is just bad and that's about it. The only thing that's better are the graphics (BW graphics just dated) and probably nothing more. Few months before I was so excited about the possible switch, but now I must say I feel sorry for them (BW pros that is).
Has anyone considered rebuilding BW in SC2's map editor? That way if they play SC2 in the proleague BW could live on forever with updated graphics.
I mean seriously, look how passionate you guys are... I am sure someone out there could near-perfectly recreate the BW maps and unit mechanics.
EDIT: Kind of what they are doing with DOTA 2 and CS:GO no?
There is SC2BW, problem it dosent have alot of the faults of the BW pathfinding(I belive muta stacking was a major problem) which made BW balanced
The debate on if muta micro is necessary for balance is pointless because sc2bw has it.
If you find anything that's still wrong or missing post it in the sc2bw thread and it might get fixed by him. Of course it will never be exact but maybe it's possible to get close enough everything is still balanced and fun.
On April 15 2012 09:02 Kiett wrote: I think you're grossly overestimating how much the masses care about the little guys on the scene. The truth is, they don't. We have an OSL chock full of storylines going on right now, from Hiya, who's fighting his way without a team, to Roro, the inheritor of the mighty Bisu-slaying title, to Hyuk, who'd like for once to not get knocked out of the Ro8 by Fantasy, to Fantasy himself, who'd like to prove once and for all that he's not just Oov's puppet. But nobody but the people who are already fans know or care about these names. No random SC2 fan is going to watch Modesty make the Ro4 again and go, "WOAH, I love BW now that I know that every player has his own interesting background, even though that's always been the case, and I've totally ignored the fact that the scene has over a decade of rich, fascinating history!" In the end, it's headlines like "Flash's 14 game win-streak finally ends" and "Flash loses 2 games in PL finals" that get 500+ upvotes on reddit, not "Hyuk makes his 4th consecutive OSL." Face it, you might like Hyuk, but nobody outside of the BW scene knows or cares about him. We're not going to suddenly get new BW fans because Grape just made a royal road run or SoO finally sheds the stereotype of the SKT zerg and wins gold.
Thank you Kiett, that was a good post.
I have always liked BW, but I never watched it till about a year ago. I played it, but I had horrible memories from when I started wanting to play online; I played two matches, each completely killed all of me that wanted to try to play a lot of BW (this is 8-9 years ago).
SC2 is easier to watch, but unlike the people that disregard BW and just views it as the predecessor, I grasp that it is another, amazing game.
But despite that, it's still hard to really "love". I have, as I said, been watch a lot of it for the past year. Not all of it, but I have been watch for hours each week. I've been following proleague, I've been watching Sayle's stream (which I really like, I'm quite sad he isn't streaming a lot anymore) and I even took up my old BW in an all new attempt to complete the campaign.
What I'm trying to say is: I have really tried to fall in love with BW.
And while I do like it, as Kiett so diplomatically said, I just don't get it. And I feel like it's tough for people, that haven't followed the game for years and years, or really spendt a tremendous amount of time trying to understand the game, to get it. So while SC2 fans might seem ignorant and disrespectful of your amazing game, please understand it's because we just don't get it. What most people understand, is that you're trying to say that down is the new up. It just doesn't make sense. And some people, being the dicks that they are, just attempt to troll you, and of course that just leads to bad situations. I'll be, that most of the SC2 people actually are genuinely interested in BW, but they've just given up. It's too hard to understand, play comfortable, and they probably realize, that they'll never get to where you are.
TL:DR I hope that made sense, that's how I see this whole ordeal. Have a wonderful life.
Then by all means, SC2 fans don't come over and trash our long beloved game Do you know how hurtful it is when one of your absolute favorite hobbies is in the process of crumbling down like a shard of cards? No I won't even use the term 'hobbie' as my arguement, I have to say that after countless of time to habitually get up late and night, snuke on computers while my roomates are sound asleep and hear Koreans commentators screaming their lungs out of pure, undefiled passion. For many of us, this have been a vital key to our lifestyle that I refuse to say that I am believer in atheism! Just be empathetic toward our anguish and let us take joy in this activity w/o interference.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I don't think it's possible to take pleasure in the slow death of someone's hobby but I think said slow death would be a hell of a lot more bearable if BW fans concentrated on enjoying the remnants of their game instead of constantly slagging ours off. For my part, I hope they come up with a more palatable solution to this problem as I want to see the BW pros playing SC2, but not while crippling your game.
If it's factually true, I don't see a problem.
immensely superior mechanics of their players
Uh....this is completely true. There's a reason why some of the best players in SC2 were b-teamers in BW. Nestea was Zergbong, a player that got laughed at for screwing Reach in countless 2v2s. MVP (at least I think that's him) had only one crowning achievement in his BW career which was beating Flash with lategame battlecruisers before getting owned by it the next game and then fading into obscurity.
This is an objective fact. We don't flaunt it in your face. When it's up to discussion, we say it because it's true. It's not even an argument that SC2 is bad. It's just an argument that says that SC2 players are subpar in skills compared to BW. This isn't remotely debatable, even if SC2 requires "different mechanics" (which I think is dumb. Flash/Bisu/Jaedong, and many others will excel at whatever RTS game they play because they have core skills already).
the better units
The very fact that they had to add a flying defiler into HotS kind of tells us that there's very little appeal in current SC2 units. Keep in mind that it's not just the units themselves, but their characteristics. The sounds they make, their sprites (though I guess in 3D games they might not be labeled sprites), etc. etc. How could you possibly like the SC2 zergling more than the BW Zergling...if you do, that's fine, but it's beyond my comprehension when one is clearly cooler than the other (better death animation, sounds, attack animation, etc. etc. etc.)
the better control, the better interface
Never seen anyone talk about this, because I'm absolutely sure that it's the other way around. SC2 players always honk on about how BW has an archaic interface that's not noob friendly, and talk about how SC2's interface lets people focus on strategy instead of having to overcome mechanical obstacles.
This now almost feels like you're just throwing together BW bashing arguments and just replacing BW with SC2.
the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros
Yes....major BW pros like.....Boxer, who's old and bad. Nada, who's out of his prime and not that good. July, who's old and no longer that good. ForGG, who only knew how to 2fac and sunken break. Why are you saying major pros.....when none of the real pros have actually switched?
This is just another shining example of people who just don't know what they're talking about. People come in here with very little knowledge on what BW is and start saying things like "Well...BOXER SWITCHED AND HE GETS CRUSHED!", when in reality that's not even a valid argument. Let's also remember that top pros (is it still Nestea, MC, MVP, Bomber?) were BW pros too, just really really bad ones that could honestly still beat Boxer in BW because as dominant as Boxer used to be, he's not even that good anymore (when you lose to HuK, even if it's on Longinus and against 10/15 gate, that's pretty sad).
I think said slow death would be a hell of a lot more bearable if BW fans concentrated on enjoying the remnants of their game instead of constantly slagging ours off.
Except that there are few of us who actually bash the game in the SC2 forum. I don't understand where's the validity in your point when I'm sure that, like me, a lot of people here just remove the SC2 tab from TL completely.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene
I realized that it was pointless to say anything when I read this. Shining example indeed.
On April 16 2012 10:42 MountainDewJunkie wrote: Grape just confirmed he is currently practicing SC2 as well.
I imagine if we had an interview for ODT Group B, one of the two winners would make a similar slip.
Hate to bring it to you but both Mini and Action have said that they are practicing fearlessly for the upcoming StarLeague games and Mini mentionned that he want to get as far as beating Jaedong in a BoX. While Action said that he wants to meet Mini again for a rematch and is hoping to get into the semifinals.
P.S. with not a single word about SC2 made an appearance in their interviews.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I call bullshit And when was this? Was this when Grrrr.. was the top foreigner? or Bisu rofl-stomped savior? or when SC2 came out? or when Kespa announced that they'll be having SC2 along with BW?
So you play and enjoy SC2 because you like easy stuff and can become good as the 'pros' you watch.
No offence but given the amount of crap on this site directed from so called BW fans towards those of us who have the temerity to like its sequel and enjoy watching it... It's a bit rich to suddenly expect it. We've had BW fanbois going on about the immensely superior mechanics of their players, the better units, the better control, the better interface, the fact that somehow none of our pros would hold a candle to their pros while conveniently glossing over the fact that major BW pros have already crossed over and gotten slammed by SC2 pros.
For the record, I enjoyed watching BW when it was a major event but it has never been particularly interesting to the western scene and it never grabbed my attention in the way SC2 did because, shockingly, I played SC2 and enjoyed it. Playing BW was like pulling teeth. Getting it to run full stop was like pulling teeth. SC2 worked out of the box and given how new it is, is amazingly fun and balanced.
I call bullshit And when was this? Was this when Grrrr.. was the top foreigner? or Bisu rofl-stomped savior? or when SC2 came out? or when Kespa announced that they'll be having SC2 along with BW?
So you play and enjoy SC2 because you like easy stuff and can become good as the 'pros' you watch.
It's no longer that easy... Skill level is pretty high nowadays... It's not like it was 1 year ago.
EPT
Do you know how hurtful it is when one of your absolute favorite hobbies is in the process of crumbling down like a shard of cards? No I won't even use the term 'hobbie' as my arguement, I have to say that after countless of time to habitually get up late and night, snuke on computers while my roomates are sound asleep and hear Koreans commentators screaming their lungs out of pure, undefiled passion. For many of us, this have been a vital key to our lifestyle that I refuse to say that I am believer in atheism! Just be empathetic toward our anguish and let us take joy in this activity w/o interference. 
