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493 Posts
On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both.
Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys.
The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison
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On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . 6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's.
It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it.
On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison
I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too.
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On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . 6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations ( I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too.
Please do it 
I also have a lot of ideas along these lines (that is, using special restrictions to explore new territory), PM me if you want to chat about it.
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Canada11219 Posts
Well this news just makes me feel depressed. I'm going to bed. 
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ITS HAPPENING!!! jaedong hwaiting
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The worst part of this is honestly that we have no garuantee that HOTS is even gonna be remotely as balanced as WoL or even BW.
And just generally that BW is gonna feel empty
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Actually i could accept Kespa going all out with SC2 switch after OSL IF they would have a biggest influence on SC2 balance, they still have the most experienced people in the industry(mapmakers, players, coaches, casters, everyone knows game in and out). Tbh if Kespa could say "look blizz this and this sux, change it" and blizzard is "ok", then im ok, if it would make SC2 a good enough game to really carry the franchise in 2-3 years, im ok. If blizzard is stubborn in their pseudo esport (aka cash milking) stance then it will be mediocre show that will repeat BW decline problem but instead of 10 years it will happen in 4 years at max(if not faster), and then we will have a bigger problem.
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On April 06 2012 15:17 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 14:52 konadora wrote:On April 06 2012 09:28 masterbreti wrote:
I don't think many people know that Kespa has actively prevented foreigners from seeing pro bw players beyond kespa organized leagues. Going far enough to banning players who played sc2 on the big stage who were still kespa players (NaDa anyone?) Kespa wants a iron grip on esports in Korea, thats why they do progamer licenses and such. If you don't get a license you don't play, simple as that.
Which means if they do something similar to courage, it'll be tougher than code B to get into. Which will make almost no foreigner ever come close to Korea, and Koreans won't have time to particpate in other leagues anyways because of the shechuale that kespa and gom will have. You'll have PL, OSL, GSL all in Korea. Koreans will take those leagues over any foreign tournaments any day. Which means Koreans travelling outside Korea will be almost nil.
Nevermind the fact that if they were to even try to get koreans to particpate in leagues outside Korea, they would have to get kespa's approval, and that comes with having to pay big fees to kespa.
Kespa's staff 90% of the time is unresponsive or just don't care. They don't care about outside Korea, they never do, and never will. Its just Kespa's nature, their board of directors are all sponsors, and the sponsors are mostly Korean exclusive companies, so they don't care about leagues outside Korea. Which means teams like SKT or KT, won't send their players outside Korea, because they don't need the exposure outside Korea. I think you're assuming this all off how you've felt about KeSPA these few years, with some of the dumb things they've done. I too felt the same but let me tell you that this is absurd. You say that KeSPA has actively prevented foreigners from seeing pro bw players beyond KeSPA organised league, but I don't think that was the reason behind banning ex-bw players who moved on to SC2. The reason for the ban was to tell Blizzard to tell them in their face that KeSPA is still the one that controls ESPORTS in Korea and that in Korea, Blizzard or any other company has to go through them. Why else do you think Blizzard, after all those retarded lawsuits and bitching is finally co-operating with KeSPA once more? Hell, they could have continued to stick with GOM. But you know what, GOM (no offense) is terrible. It's a "TV" (lol joke) but its reach is next to none, people in Korea won't give a fuck until it's officially recognised and promoted. Look at SC2, then look at LoL. Riot Games actively sought to seek cooperation with KeSPA, and with LoL as an official game in Korea, it's being heavily promoted, not by plastering streets with banners that annoying the shit out of everyone, but having people (Kim Carry, Kong) and media (DES, Fomos, OGN) promote it. How were they able to do it? Because of KeSPA's backing. Blizzard tried to do their own way, and now you see Mike trying to suck up back to KeSPA and the Korean fans because they know SC2 is close to doomed in Korea right now. For any game to get big, it HAS to go through KeSPA; KeSPA knows that and that's why they're so keen on keeping a tight leash around the progaming scene. Nothing to do with putting down the interest of foreign fans. And as a business (yes KeSPA is still a business management, people forget that), it's a necessary step. For your point about KeSPA not sending players out of Korea, well that's because of all their games, there are none (except for LoL maybe?) that have foreign tournaments? Look at the games. Kart Rider, Brood War, Sudden Attack, Special Force... yeah I'm sure there are foreign tournaments for those, right? IF SC2 gets the KeSPA stamp of approval, who knows what may happen. We've seen BW being attempted to be held in Shanghai, BW progamers going overseas (Blizzcon, IESF, etc etc) and such, and I for sure as hell know that none of them paid "big fees" to KeSPA. KeSPA's staff are unresponsive and they don't care outside Korea? You are wrong there. KeSPA is actually very interested in the foreign fanbase, just that they have not had any methods or media to get to them. Well they did recently set up the ESPORTSTV channel on youtube, which was really good imo. Fast uploads, good quality, no country region block. There are some stuff that I can't say, but KeSPA is more than willing to cooperate with foreign organisations and communities to developing ESPORTS in and out of Korea and maintaining or even increasing the fanbase. It is thanks to KeSPA that TL has managed to get 30 special priority tickets to the grand finals this sunday, and that was on a last-minute basis. They didn't know that so many foreigners were interested, and they were the ones who offered the priority tickets in the first place. They responded immediately with sincerity and interest, and everyone in KeSPA from the referees to the general manager are interested in both the local and foreign fanbase, I can vouch for that. They are listening and tolerating all the shit that stargal and other communities throw at them, but in the end, they are a business model, so they are just trying to balance out how to manage the business well while keeping the interest going, with the fanbase in mind. I understand what you are saying. But here I am looking at it from a sc2 players prospective, after all, thats what I am doing in Korea. Plus when I contacted KeSPA a long time ago. I had spoken to them about producing englsih content for foreigners. You know what happen? They sent me 3-4 e-mails then never once responded back to me to this day. That was a year ago. They said they were interested. I even spoke to the CJ entus' marketing manager who said he would try to push KeSPA to act on it. They didn't do anything. So I gave up and decided that I had better things to do. They may be interested in giving away tickets. but not in doing much more than that. As well For me Kespa means the end of my time in Korea, and for many foreigners it is the same thing. How many leagues are going to have to either change their dates for kespa, cause I sure as hell know that kespa won't change shit for foreign tournament organizers. The ONLY reason Kespa let their players go was because it was Blizzard, if it was anyone else, Kespa would say no dice. with the exception being WCG. Look at the LoL league. Since this tournament, you have not really seen any of the LoL teams in Korea play outside Korea. with the exception being IPL4 I'm not worried about OGN, I want OGN to broadcast sc2, its KeSPA that I'm worried about. To be honest, I'm more worried about the whole licsense process in Korea. How the hell are they going to determine who gets one and who doesn't. No foreigners will get one because they won't be on Korean teams. That means all foreigners here are basically left out in the dark. We'll have no way to particpate in these leagues, and kespa will impose stricter rules on where their players can go. Meaning that Koreans going to a MLG event every month isn't going to happen. With IPL,MLG, IEM, and a pleortha of other random events, is it really a wonder why Koreans are leaving Korea. They know that once kespa gets involved, its either with them or against them. You know how strict Kespa is regarding this. No foreigner is going to leave a decent salary to play for a Korean team that gives them almost no pay and almost no play-time, Just so they can train hard for events they might never be able to go to. Everyone where I live is worried about this possible outcome. Every progamer here is. IF kespa were to play fair and would host OSL and PL without time conflicts with other tournaments. They would only be airing 2 days a week. I mean think of how many big sc2 events are this weekend, 4-5 maybe more. With at least one big events happening every week. There won't be time to introduce more into Korea.
You dont understand have the pro license works or?
You dont have 2 be on korean Team cause you NEED a pro license 2 join a Team there.
thats why u play Courage as a amateur and win your license so you might actually join a Team.
But yeah. it will mean cu Foreigners in korea. cause no one will win this shit. only chance is that some teams give them a license.
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I wonder if the extra amount of cheese this PL had anything to do with players splitting their time between two games.
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On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . 6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too.
BTW, does your plan to host a sc2-to-BW map conversion tournament still stand? I really want to see that :D
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Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes.
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On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes.
How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure.
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well I like BW and SC2, but am not sure about the idea of mixing both games in the Proleague. I guess it`s a economic driven decision (maybe Blizzard gave some money, who knows), but I would have preferred a scenario where they stick with one game, BW or SC2. Though, I don`t want to judge before seeing how it works out and will watch first.
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On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure.
The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals.
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On April 06 2012 20:52 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure. The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals.
I'm not talking about just the foreign BW community... And in case you didn't notice, the SC2 forum is riddled with topics regarding SC2's numerous flaws.
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On April 06 2012 20:04 RageCommodore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . 6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too. BTW, does your plan to host a sc2-to-BW map conversion tournament still stand? I really want to see that :D
I was waiting for some more good map conversions to come out, but I think if I did that now all the BW fans would get mad
On April 06 2012 21:06 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 20:52 cuppatea wrote:On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure. The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals. I'm not talking about just the foreign BW community... And in case you didn't notice, the SC2 forum is riddled with topics regarding SC2's numerous flaws.
The majority of which are fixed by 6m1hyg. It's a completely different, and much better, game on those maps.
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I've avoided posting here before, but with this season's final coming up I wanted to say... what a lot of people are already saying, probably.
If SPL/OSL switched to SC2 entirely, at this point I don't think I would mind. I've posted and blogged before on why it would likely be a terrible problem to deal with in the long term, but SC2 is a good game - remaining problems (assuming more aren't introduced by the expansions, which is optimistic but whatever) can mainly be fixed by map-making and creativity, I think. The one thing that can't be fixed by map-making (I think) is the visual "clumping" problem, but other people have dealt with that in far greater detail without seeming to influence Blizzard - and that's fine, fixing it would probably mean rebalancing the whole game. (I say visual problem because my major problem with it is as a spectator - as a (silver/bronze) player it doesn't bug me at all.)
Of course I'd be sad and nostalgic; but life changes.
But this halfway thing just seems weird.
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On April 06 2012 22:10 Ribbon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 20:04 RageCommodore wrote:On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . 6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too. BTW, does your plan to host a sc2-to-BW map conversion tournament still stand? I really want to see that :D I was waiting for some more good map conversions to come out, but I think if I did that now all the BW fans would get mad Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 21:06 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:52 cuppatea wrote:On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure. The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals. I'm not talking about just the foreign BW community... And in case you didn't notice, the SC2 forum is riddled with topics regarding SC2's numerous flaws. The majority of which are fixed by 6m1hyg. It's a completely different, and much better, game on those maps.
Except for the lack of micro (and I don't mean spamming spells but rather Marines vs Banelings kind of thing) and the lack of space controlling units, which would require blizzard's intervention (and they're too incompetent to fix that; Browder even thinks pressing "C" for Cloak, or whatever the hotkey is, is micro).
Still better than nothing, but I can't imagine blizzard implementing FRB.
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On April 06 2012 22:30 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2012 22:10 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 20:04 RageCommodore wrote:On April 06 2012 17:47 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 17:11 Sawamura wrote:On April 06 2012 17:03 Ribbon wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . Yeah, 6m1gas feels like Brood War. I think it'll probably take some time to be accepted, unless KeSPA forces it, because there'll be balance hiccups and such, but it's such a massive improvement in the game to play and to watch. It will, inevitably, be the standard, with or without Blizzard's involvement. I think 6m1g is almost as big an idea to SC2 as "natural" expansions were to BW. There's a 6m1g tournament next week with some low-level pros (and Ganzi, who kind of outclasses them), and I'm really looking forward to it. Have you actually tried 6m maps? They're much more fun to play, as well. On April 06 2012 16:47 etrensce wrote:On April 06 2012 16:34 Sawamura wrote:
I would probably watch sc2 games if Barrin 6mineral 1 gas(FRB) is implemented in to the pro scene . From an old bw fan perspective on this development it's great that sc2 community is able to direct their future rather than waiting for blizzard to do something and magically create a better game for themselves .
This in my opinion is definitely a step to a better future for sc2 and I am hopeful that the lack of resources will force players to try to do minor guerilla tactics to get that extra base running and this will lead to more engagement and special tactics being employed by players to win in the middle and late game . I see 6min1gas I think about broodwar and I would definitely let my negativity about sc2 fade away if every game of sc2 is actually played on maps like 6min1gas.
Hopefully this idea of barrins is widely accepted and probably it's the last chance for sc2 to make thing's finally right . 6m1g would mean terrans will roflstomp everything. good viewing right there This does not seem to be the case either in my own experience, or in higher-level tests. Some of the openings are a bit weird, but 6m1g is really such "SC2 but better in every way". You can't just sit on your ass and turtle to 200, even as Zerg, and it just feels so much more active, and fast-paced. Don't have a copy of sc2 but I don't mind watching a few vods with 6min1gas maps being played by sc2 pro's. It's a really tiny prize pool, but there's a 6m tournament next week with Ganzi and IntoTheRainbow, among some lower-tier foreign pros. I have high hopes for it. On April 06 2012 17:33 storkfan wrote:On April 06 2012 15:58 eviltomahawk wrote:On April 06 2012 15:12 Sinedd wrote:
my biggest concern is that SC2 is so much easier for the pros to play than BW, that awesome gosu players wont be as much dominant as in BW, and they'll wont be able to show all of their skills because of adjustable hotkeys, easier mechanics etc..
the skill gap between gosu and medium players will be significantly smaller.. which makes me kinda sad ;(
I thought the transition is going to take more time than this.. I'm concerned that the gosus will initially not dominate as much in both games not because of SC2's game design but because they may be forced to practice both games at once. Perhaps the game design might come in to limit their abilities later if they play full time, but I'm afraid that the players will be stretched too thin and will do poorly in both games at once. Like, a Bisu doing 50% BW and 50% SC2 may easily get sniped in a match by someone who does 100% BW or 100% SC2. I'm afraid of this. I'm also afraid that match quality, in both games, will be pretty bad. The novelty of watching BW pros playing against each other in SC2 might wear off if they consistently play at only a high-masters level due to practicing both games at once. If that happens, I might be more entertained watching the cutting-edge of the SC2 metagame in GSL rather than watch lower-level matches played by part-time players in the hybrid Proleague. And then the hybrid pros will be more vulnerable to less-skilled players who play BW full-time. Playing at a professional level is already a tightrope act as is, and Team 8's poor performance shows how even the most subtle of changes can have significant negative effects to performance. tbh, I would rather see Jaedong either be good at BW or good at SC2 rather than see him be mediocre at both. Have you seen the foreign BW scene? They are not as good but that is a beauty in IT SELF. All the esoteric plays and unpredictable follow ups, foreign bw scene is amazing because of that, some of my greatest experiences have been watching foreign tourneys. The korean scene, to be honest, is slightly formulaic in comparison I agree, and this is why most've my tournaments have had weird map pools or stipulations (I'm thinking of having a Zerg-only tournament, and banning Spires). Sloppy play is fun, too. BTW, does your plan to host a sc2-to-BW map conversion tournament still stand? I really want to see that :D I was waiting for some more good map conversions to come out, but I think if I did that now all the BW fans would get mad On April 06 2012 21:06 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:52 cuppatea wrote:On April 06 2012 20:35 maybenexttime wrote:On April 06 2012 20:16 MrCon wrote:
Perhaps it'll be better than expected. Sc2 fans will discover broodwar, broodwar fans will discover that sc2 can also produce good and exciting games. It could bring a new influx of fans in both scenes. How can BW players discover SC2? The fact that we don't like it nearly as fun as BW and find it boring to watch is not a problem of not enough exposure. The thing is, the "we" you refer to is just a small, hardcore minority that remains after the foreign BW scene has, on the whole, embraced SC2. There are less people viewing Pro League games on here now than there were when I first joined the site, even though the user-base has increased tenfold. You guys act like Blizzard has failed because they haven't satisfied the 1k people watching Pro League games, but I would argue they succeeded because they have satisfied the 100k who watched the IEM finals. I'm not talking about just the foreign BW community... And in case you didn't notice, the SC2 forum is riddled with topics regarding SC2's numerous flaws. The majority of which are fixed by 6m1hyg. It's a completely different, and much better, game on those maps. Except for the lack of micro (and I don't mean spamming spells but rather Marines vs Banelings kind of thing) and the lack of space controlling units.
It's not that you CAN'T micro in SC2, it's that it doesn't matter because you've got 200 supply and 2,000/2,000 in the bank, so micro is never worth the effort. In small engagements, there actually is decent to good micro, as ForGG made a name for himself in SC2 proving.
http://www.justin.tv/esvision/b/297427406
6m1hyg leads to much smaller armies, with much more incentive to break up into raiding parties. With smaller armies, more micro is renwarded = more micro is seen.
The lack of space controlling units...Tanks are still good, a lot of Zergs are realizing that spine crawlers fill the space control role quite well. I guess Protoss has Sentries in the early game and Mothership in late and not really much in midgame, but they kind of didn't in BW either.
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EPT
